Moderation/Rule/Site Concerns and Suggestions

[Fusion X. Denver]

Just a quick thing about mods:

Whenever a mod's activity/position is called into question by a number of people, like with what's been mentioned about Rai, Roxas, Night, etc, then I think it's fair that they be given an official heads up from the rest of the team that their future in that role will be going under reconsideration. 

 

They should be given a little time to respond to the situation before any action's taken, such as explaining outside priorities and obligations that might be taking up their YCM time. And I think following that, the mods should allow said mod some time to get re-active if they need to, or to at least wait on making a final decision until their exams/schedule/whatever excuse calms down. If YCM remains a priority to them, they'll make time to log on. If it no longer isn't, then they're demoted. Which I think is fair; none of the current mods are going to be active here forever. You'll all be demoted or will step down eventually. Priorities change as we get older. 

 

I'll just use Rai as an example: I think someone mentioned he had exams recently; it's possible his life is currently frenetic and he's meant to do YCM duties but hasn't gotten to it. So alerting him that members and mods are concerned that he hasn't been around should be brought to his attention so he can either:

A. Come back and settle everyone's doubts.

B. Understand the situation and tell the mod team he'll be back around this date. Which should then be carefully noted by the mod team and write off his absence as a non-issue now.

C. Reconsider if he still wants or has the time to be a mod, and can make that call.

 

And whenever any mod comes back after having been gone a while, I think the rest of the team should note if that mod only came back for a bit to settle some doubts and then left again or if they properly returned and have stuck around consistently since then.

[Dad]

Though this thread was made to discuss "Site Rules and Concerns", please keep one sided banter to a minimum.  I've seen a lot of that, and we're making very little progress to changing more pressing matters that the member base would benefit from.

 

Now then.

 

 

4) an actual clarification of the sexual content rule. Can we still get 3-5 wp for dick jokes, or is it more we shouldn't have a pedophilia furry topic like the one that started this whole sheet storm. Draw the read lines please

 

Since a lot of this has been covered, I will only discuss what I left in the quote.  I'll break it down into two parts and try to be as articulate as possible so that you can understand what I'm saying.

 

Regarding the sexual content rule, it's hard.  It's a long, hard, nasty rule to work with because there's so much that it entails.  We have to be very specific about what we let blow over and what we consider to be too much.  I'll give you an example of a recent lapse in my own judgment.  Dae's porn thread.  This is what happened in my head:

 

"Okay, this is clearly meant to be a joke.  There's no nudity, there's no links to questionable sites.  And it's all been made comical.  I should let this go, and just monitor it."

 

Why did I do that?  "Dad, you're kinda strict."  "Dad, can you actually tell us what is and isn't sexual content?"  "Oh come on, it was just a joke, pops!"  I thought, okay, I'll lighten up.  Naturally, not everyone felt that way, and some things did of course escalate.  I had to shut it down.  And looking at it from my fellow moderators' perspective, it was literally just cropped porn.  I shouldn't have let it go on for so long.  This is very, very complex.  The selections that go into deciding what does and doesn't cross the line is very intricate.  It seems simplistic, but I can assure you it ain't.

 

However, that does not mean we can't try to better define the rule.  This is something we are working towards, and of course it's something we need more feedback on.  We need to remember the entire member base (roughly twelve to twenty-one year olds on average) when we make these decisions, specifically for "inappropriate content".  I realize--mostly myself--that some of the content that has been labeled as inappropriate was acted on rather quickly.  Sometimes too quickly.  And this will sound a bit conceited and stupid of me, but I'd rather we act quickly, remove questionable content and discuss it (which we've been better about in private discussion), and then if necessary, reversing part or all of that decision if necessary is better than allowing it to fester and potentially create more problems.

 

 

potentially hiring another active debate mod. Say Mido or Pol who are regular posters

 

I'm not opposed to this.  I don't deem it necessary, as the section isn't super fast, and doesn't require two moderators.  However, I feel it's unfair that I for the most part am liberal, and I think that weighs too heavily on the section.  Recently, I've tried to post less for two reasons:

 

I know that the majority of the section wants a light hand on moderator interference so that debates can actually be . . .well, debated.

 

I don't want to be biased in a section that is meant to be a platform for healthy, if heavy discussion on topics from two sides.

 

It may be appropriate to place someone who is my Polar opposite (I still got it) in a position of power.  Not necessary, but appropriate.  Of course, if--a big if--this happens, it would be a long, lengthy process and would require some patience from all of us (members and moderators alike). 

 

I do have a few more points I'd like to cover, but I lost my post and what I was typing and now, Dad is irritated (stupid browser crash).  I'll catch up and provide plenty more feedback tomorrow.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's fine really, you're the best mod we could have asked for. If you don't think it's needed, I'll defer to your judgment

[Tourmaline]

Even Dad wants me to be promoted.

[Wahrheit]

Just a quick thing about mods:

Whenever a mod's activity/position is called into question by a number of people, like with what's been mentioned about Rai, Roxas, Night, etc, then I think it's fair that they be given an official heads up from the rest of the team that their future in that role will be going under reconsideration. 

 

They should be given a little time to respond to the situation before any action's taken, such as explaining outside priorities and obligations that might be taking up their YCM time. And I think following that, the mods should allow said mod some time to get re-active if they need to, or to at least wait on making a final decision until their exams/schedule/whatever excuse calms down. If YCM remains a priority to them, they'll make time to log on. If it no longer isn't, then they're demoted. Which I think is fair; none of the current mods are going to be active here forever. You'll all be demoted or will step down eventually. Priorities change as we get older. 

 

I'll just use Rai as an example: I think someone mentioned he had exams recently; it's possible his life is currently frenetic and he's meant to do YCM duties but hasn't gotten to it. So alerting him that members and mods are concerned that he hasn't been around should be brought to his attention so he can either:

A. Come back and settle everyone's doubts.

B. Understand the situation and tell the mod team he'll be back around this date. Which should then be carefully noted by the mod team and write off his absence as a non-issue now.

C. Reconsider if he still wants or has the time to be a mod, and can make that call.

 

And whenever any mod comes back after having been gone a while, I think the rest of the team should note if that mod only came back for a bit to settle some doubts and then left again or if they properly returned and have stuck around consistently since then.

I think this is way too close to a Heckler's Veto to be a viable strategy.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Dad is one of the best mods around.

 

And I would seriously consider Beatrice for mod. Anybody associated with Mihail should be prime Mod material.

[Kazooie]

Okay, so... I'm going to bring this up once again.
 
The Mod Team can really, really use a PR Mod of sorts. You technically have this unofficially, Black does a LOT of this lately. But he's one person, he's constantly unsure how much he can actually say because of stepping on toes. This isn't something an official PR Mod should have to deal with, transparency is so f***ing important and I'm gonna be going through this again.

 

There's also evilfusion. Evilfusion is, well... One of the best moderators the site has. He does his best to stay as transparent and he's always pretty smart about his decisions. Night once said that if we could clone evilfusion and just have seven of him running the site, it would be perfect. It... Kinda would be.

The mod team STILL feels shady as s*** a lot of the time though. This is not good, it's not good for your image, it's not good for the member base trying to trust you, it's all terrible. Black is doing the best he can, Dad has done a much better job than I expected considering the Mod Team's track record. A while back, there was a thread about this issue, and stuff I posted them still applies now.
 

My biggest issue with the mod team is how there's very, very little unity. A lot of the time, it feels like there's almost no coordination at all between different mods, especially when it comes to big changes. It's less of a team and more of one of those uneasy alliances between heroes and villains in response to a bigger bad that shows up in the last quarter of the story.
 
Decisions get rolled out prematurely, additional rules are vague, ideas are only half formed before they start up, and it all gets... Tiring, I guess is the word?
 
...
 
My other big issue is way that big things are often... Sprung out of nowhere. No prior build up, no warning, no discussions. It happens with moderator appointments, like what happened with Rai and Striker. It happened with the new rules being implemented. Instead of doing this stuff out of nowhere, then having a shitstorm, then having a discussion about it, it seems like... It would have been noticed that the discussions should generally come before these major decisions.
 
No, this site isn't a democracy entirely. But it shouldn't be a dictatorship either. There should be a medium. That's what discussions are for, yeah?

 
This stuff still happens. It's not nearly as bad, thankfully, but it's still a concern. And once again, I think the PR Mod deal is the best way to handle it. Have 1-2 mods that are meant to mostly interact with the userbase, keep them updated on the plans and things going on with the mod team, and taking concerns and stuff and keeping track of those is something I still think would be great to have. Koko left and she was acting as the 'PR Mod', but her... Success with that could be kind of debated. That's why I recommend Josh be shifted over to take up her old position, because he basically does it already.
 
An earlier idea in here was to create a thread where the 'PR Mods' could update the community with decisions and discussions going on, which I think is a great idea. It would be better if there was an additional thread to go along with that, where actual discussion on those topics could go along with it. Two threads, just so that the actual decisions thread could be kept clean. This could really help the transparency issue if done well. I think it was Kano who brought it up, but if not, I'm really sorry. I can't remember who the first person to mention it was. ;v;

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I think this is way too close to a Heckler's Veto to be a viable strategy.

How do you come to that conclusion, it seems more like a person not running for office if he has other duties. We shouldn't promote inactivity I'd think

Dad is one of the best mods around.

 

And I would seriously consider Beatrice for mod. Anybody associated with Mihail should be prime Mod material.

Hina is petty when she's upset, as show by the waifu wars deal. That being said, if a certain mod is the standard we're adhering to, I don't see why not

 

I'd personally like you as a mod Jack. You came up with the debate section after Icy killed it last time. And you're quite capable of slapping anyone who needs it while maintaining a air of dignity. Much like Dad in that regard

[Halubaris Maphotika]

How do you come to that conclusion, it seems more like a person not running for office if he has other duties. We shouldn't promote inactivity I'd think

Hina is petty when she's upset, as show by the waifu wars deal. That being said, if a certain mod is the standard we're adhering to, I don't see why not

I wasn't paying much attention to the Waifu Wars so I wouldn't know. While she can be over the top sometimes, I've no doubt in my mind that Beatrice would not let it affect her policy.

[Wahrheit]

How do you come to that conclusion, it seems more like a person not running for office if he has other duties. We shouldn't promote inactivity I'd think

Hina is petty when she's upset, as show by the waifu wars deal. That being said, if a certain mod is the standard we're adhering to, I don't see why not

Heckler's veto is where you let the person who doesn't like the thing keep the thing from happening, or take the thing away, when most people are probably fine with it, or want it. Letting any specific user or small group of users (interest groups) veto a mod (policy) is a bad idea.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Heckler's veto is where you let the person who doesn't like the thing keep the thing from happening, or take the thing away, when most people are probably fine with it, or want it. Letting any specific user or small group of users (interest groups) veto a mod (policy) is a bad idea.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto

I get that, but it seems like there's broad consensus that we don't want inactive mods. It;s not a small group of users, which is why I'm unsure the comparison works

[Wahrheit]

I get that, but it seems like there's broad consensus that we don't want inactive mods. It;s not a small group of users, which is why I'm unsure the comparison works

I think if you're going to have those conversations at all, there need to be very clear and carefully considered definitions as to what "broad consensus" means.

 

Does it hurt anything for mods to take a break?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I think if you're going to have those conversations at all, there need to be very clear and carefully considered definitions as to what "broad consensus" means.

 

Does it hurt anything for mods to take a break?

If they lose touch with the section, they're not exactly fit to have power over it right? There's not unless you're worried the mod will abuse their power. Which I don't think many people do about Rai. Historically there has been demotion due to inactivity though 

[Wahrheit]

If they lose touch with the section, they're not exactly fit to have power over it right? There's not unless you're worried the mod will abuse their power. Which I don't think many people do about Rai. Historically there has been demotion due to inactivity though 

I don't think that's a realistic view of how moderation works.

[Blake]

Making room on the team is a reason.

 

While this IS a large site, at least technically, leaving moderators who aren't doing their job, for whatever reason, when you promote new ones only makes it so that you run the risk of power abuse becqause too many loose ends. Even if they're low risk, that risk still remains, and you don't want to take a gamble.

 

So while there's no true limit on the team, there is the path of least risk.

[Wahrheit]

Making room on the team is a reason.

 

While this IS a large site, at least technically, leaving moderators who aren't doing their job, for whatever reason, when you promote new ones only makes it so that you run the risk of power abuse becqause too many loose ends. Even if they're low risk, that risk still remains, and you don't want to take a gamble.

 

So while there's no true limit on the team, there is the path of least risk.

I guess. It just seems arbitrary and maybe unnecessary. It's wholly contingent on the facts, though.

[Delibirb]

I would be interested in being another mod of the debates section. I don't think there needs to be polar opposites among debate mods, if there were to be multiple. The idea is that they ensure the debating is civil and legitimate discussion, following forum rules. As long as such a mod understands what that means, I think their political views are irrelevant, so long as they're willing to dish out wrist-slaps to "their side" when necessary. I would work on being more attentive in that regard; I try to gently nudge better argumentative skills into the equation, but I feel like I nudge Winter more than other users who also need reminding of things.

 

I have called for more reigns on what should be passable in debates before, but I would generally probably do so in posts, or even PM, more than actually dealing out warnings or what have you. I mostly just want people to learn how to effectively make, argue, and defend points - and how to concede an argument without feeling like you have to change your mind.

 

Just, if such a concept starts getting considered. I'd really like to help.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

In terms of appealing bans can we do something about BLOOD or RAGNAROK1945 finally?

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

In terms of appealing bans can we do something about BLOOD or RAGNAROK1945 finally?

 

Only ones here who'd even remember what Bloodrun did are probably Dad, Roxas, Flame Dragon, Night (supposedly); dk about Smear if he was a member at the time Bloodrun did stuff. Rest of us (including me) weren't around at the time, or have a very hazy memory about him.

 

(I've encountered him about once, but that's it.)

 

As for ragnarok1945, you'd have to take it up with the mods who dealt with him back in 2012. All I know (from whatever members posted in the past and some random post checking under his name) is that he got into arguments with Icy, and some other users elsewhere on the forum.

 

(I was on leave at this time, so don't know what else he did past 12/14/2011. I do remember his posts in CC though)

 

===

That in mind, do those two even care about coming back? I haven't seen Bloodrun since the MyBB days, and that's more than 6 years. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Bloods around on 4ch, dunno about raggy

[Wahrheit]

Only ones here who'd even remember what Bloodrun did are probably Dad, Roxas, Flame Dragon, Night (supposedly); dk about Smear if he was a member at the time Bloodrun did stuff. Rest of us (including me) weren't around at the time, or have a very hazy memory about him.

 

(I've encountered him about once, but that's it.)

 

As for ragnarok1945, you'd have to take it up with the mods who dealt with him back in 2012. All I know (from whatever members posted in the past and some random post checking under his name) is that he got into arguments with Icy, and some other users elsewhere on the forum.

 

(I was on leave at this time, so don't know what else he did past 12/14/2011. I do remember his posts in CC though)

 

===

That in mind, do those two even care about coming back? I haven't seen Bloodrun since the MyBB days, and that's more than 6 years. 

They can both stay gone. I don't think Bloodrun even wants to come back, and Ragnarok never showed any signs of reform.

[bury the year]

K so.

 

I don't think that the site needs another debate mod, for two reasons:

 

1. Dad's a good mod, for reasons already stated. He does the job sufficiently, and the section isn't active enough to warrant two.

 

2. A moderator's personal/political views shouldn't interfere with their judgment in locking a debate. If discussion is getting personally inflammatory or if people are getting sufficiently off-topic are the only criteria under which I can see a debate thread warranting a lock. Otherwise, people should only be restricted from posting in debates if they cannot abide by "debate rules," however that's defined by the mods. Content being contrary to the thread's opinion majeure shouldn't warrant a lock if a moderator is offended. :/

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Common sense reform, can we change how PM's work so we can re-invite people who have left

[Wahrheit]

Common sense reform, can we change how PM's work so we can re-invite people who have left

YCMaker required

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

YCMaker required

Evilfusion has the same powers as YCMaker

 

And we brought YCMaker back for a few days after Tormey slut shamed him