Real Yu-Gi-Oh

[sdkinslayer]

Since i know Yu-Gi-Oh im looking for the real game. Next to the horrible balancing and the crap rules of this Yu-Gi-Oh, it miss also some important game mechanics. I think now i found the answear which game mechanics are missing.

 

The first thing is to make DEF to a kind of Lifepoints for monsters like in Magic. This change would make the real Yu-Gi-Oh a lot more variable than this game, in this case there will be a completly rebalancing of ATK and DEF inescapable.

 

The second thing would be a change of attack- and defens position. The face up defens position allows you now to select the attack target to all of your face up defensiv position monsters, when your opponent declairs an attack with a monster. You dont get difference damage and you can normal summon face up defensiv position. This change give the player more strategic influence of the game.

 

For example: If you control a Jinzo 2400/1400 and a Mystic Shine Ball 500/500 and your opponent just control face down Spell or Trap cards you could attack him and do 2900 damage. Then your opponent special summon a Blue Eyes White Dragon 3000/2500 and a Summoned Skull 2500/1200. Now he/she would destroy Jinzo with Blue Eyes and Shine Ball with Summoned Skull. But with the new game mechanic you could expect that and instead doing 2900 damage, you could change both to defensiv position. Then the opponent would declare an attack with Blue Eyes White Dragon and you could select Mystic Shine Ball as attack target. If the opponent would attack with Summoned Skull now, his monster would get destroyed also.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Just play a different game. Hearthstone works.

[~British Soul~]

What Giga said. I don't see the point in any of these changes tbph.

[sdkinslayer]

Giga, if you play soccer/football and play with a square football. Would you say you need a normal ball to play football or would you say i need to play a completly other game basketball for example?

 

British Soul, you dont get it although i explained it?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I mean, in said scenario, you clearly hate soccer, so yeah, recommending something more toward your taste would make sense.

 

Like, this is a thing in Yugioh that if you change, it simply is something else. Now that may be the intent, but that would hardly be creating a new game, and even if it were this is not the section for it.

 

Tl;dr these changes are lame, and if you are that bent on them just play something else.

[~British Soul~]

I get it, but I see no real point, that's all.

[Mysty]

Yugioh's monsters aren't designed to account for these mechanics and some would break the mechanics.
Hearthstone's minions already have their second number as their life stat and Hearthstone even has a Taunt mechanic that limits how the opponent's minions attack (much like your proposed change to defense position).

Also, Yugioh's problems go far beyond the game's combat system. For me (and many other people), most of these problems stem from a lack of a real resource system. Since that would be near-impossible to implement, I'd recommend just playing a game that already has one.

Given the above, it sounds like Hearthstone would be a much better game to your taste.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Generally, the cards in a card game are designed around the mechanics that they, well, are designed to work with. Changing those mechanics throws the balance of the game off even more than it was before. Tfw ninjas.

 

With these changes, Marshmallon would practically prevent your opponent from attacking (though that isn't too much of an obstacle with all the effect removal in the game). Burdensome monsters such as Shaddoll Winda and E-Hero Dark Law become harder to destroy in battle just by tossing some Defense-Positioned monsters into the mix, even if both of those monsters have less DEF than ATK. Not too sure about Dark Law's case, but Shaddolls often have Defense-Positioned monsters on the field (albeit face-down, but they also have Shadow Games). I mean, you could use even Scapegoat or other random fodder cards to keep a monster alive. This would just end up leading to an even higher demand of removal to break an opponent's field, and the abundance of removal is honestly a much bigger problem than the Battle Phase and monsters not having health.

[sdkinslayer]

You talking but say nothing.

 

Mysts: you are talking about a mysterious resource system, what ever that means. Hearthstone, Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh are the same games, just with different names.

 

Im generally against full lock effects like Marshmallons cant (never) destroyed by battle. I already said at first the game needs a rebalance and of course you also need changes to the new game mechanics. You can simple add the phrase Scapegoats dont benefit from the defensiv position advantage or what ever. Seems not to be a problem.

[ihop]

Giga, if you play soccer/football and play with a square football. Would you say you need a normal ball to play football or would you say i need to play a completly other game basketball for example?

 

 

Except what you're saying here is that you want to play football but don't like the idea of kicking the ball with your foot, and you're suggesting an alternative which involves throwing the ball about instead.

[sdkinslayer]

My analogy was very good, yours makes no sense phil.

[ihop]

No, mine is exactly what is going on here. You're saying you want to play game A but want to change the rules to more or less the rules of game B while still playing game A.

[~British Soul~]

...so you might as well play game B instead of trying to change game A to make it more like game B.

[sdkinslayer]

You mean football with a squared ball is funny and i should play basketball instead.

 

What if the developer of Yu Gi Oh say you need 10 turns before a monster can attack and i would say something against that, then you would also say its a mechanic of the game and i should play a other game.

[Blake]

You mean football with a squared ball is funny and i should play basketball instead.

 

What if the developer of Yu Gi Oh say you need 10 turns before a monster can attack and i would say something against that, then you would also say its a mechanic of the game and i should play a other game.

uh, yes, if the game managed to take off even worth that rule, such would be the case.

 

First off, you don't understand resource system so, and you blindly grouped dissimilar card games together, while making analogies fit for a clown.

 

Secondly, you don't even make an attempt to hide your hyperbole, instead embracing it and telling people they're being annoying or not saying anything.

 

Learn what a resource system is and why YGO has a following over CFV, MTG, and HS, then decide things... And even then, no one here is going to jump on your idea and praise it. At least, no one that's actually good at any given game.

[sdkinslayer]

One more who talking a lot and say nothing. If you would at least explain your mysterious resource system or your CFV and so on things.

[Blake]

Why?

 

You're talking about redesigning a card game. As such, before you do so, YOU should be putting in the work and doing the research.

 

And while not as big as the other three, you should know CFV if you're going to do something like this.

 

It's not "One more who talking a lot and say nothing" (lmfao), it's you not knowing what you're talking about in the first place.

 

So learn what you're on about before attempting something like this.

[Aman Indra]

Shitpost

[~~~~]

Shut up, sdkinslayer. I like Yugioh just the way it is! If you don't, you can go take a hike, instead of trying to change something that I am perfectly fine with!

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

One more who talking a lot and say nothing. If you would at least explain your mysterious resource system or your CFV and so on things.

The resource system for Magic, for example, are the land cards and stuff that gives you mana, which you can then use on monsters and spells and whatnot. Stronger monsters and better spells need more mana to be used, while you can use less for weaker monsters/less powerful spells. A big difference between Yugioh and most other card games is that Yugioh doesn't use a resource system like that at all. You can just Normal Summon most Level 4- monsters, and not have to worry about paying anything. No Life Points, no mana, nothing. You just put the monster on the field, and the rules say you can't do that again until next turn (barring certain card effects). Yugioh does still have some sort of cost, such as Tributing monsters to Tribute Summon Level 5+ monsters and the occasional "discard/Tribute to do something" card. And in a sense, your own health is somewhat of a resource if you look at the new Solemn cards. Resources are still a thing, though, since you can run out of cards in your hand/on your field and end up in a pretty terrible position. However, the only thing stopping you from Special Summoning a bunch of monsters is you running out of cards that let you do so, or your field filling up.

 

Is this system worse than the one other card games like Magic and Hearthstone use? A lot of people think so. But it also helps to make Yugioh be something different from Magic, or else there'd be no point in playing Yugioh when Magic does the entire thing better. And even if it is worse, it still works, so there is no particularly dire need to change that. The same can be said with monsters and their DEF. The way it works now certainly does work, and it's even fun (in my opinion). That said, Hearthstone uses health for monsters, and I find that fun too. It doesn't mean Yugioh needs to adopt Hearthstone's system, and doesn't mean Hearthstone needs to adopt Yugioh's system.

[Toffee.]

>you can normal summon face up defensiv position

>This change give the player more strategic influence of the game

 

...No it doesn't.

[Yui]

The funny thing is that Shiranui and Steelswarm would immediately become useless since they all have 0 DEF, as would generic zombie decks and every boss zombies have to their name.  You clearly don't know as much about how this game works compared to other games as the choir of people who "talk a lot but say nothing", let alone how to spell a certain handful of words.  If you don't like how YGO works, pick up Magic.  Or pretty much any other game under the planet, because Konami won't change sheet because of one nobody who says some stuff on a fan forum halfway across the globe from their headquarters, even if the sheet made sense and was a good idea.  Not trying to be rude here; just laying down some facts.

[sdkinslayer]

Again more people talking much and say nothing.

 

To a better character.

The resource system of Magic is a horrible mistake. In Hearthstone you see a fixed version (1 way to fix it). Because of this mistake each 3rd game in Magic is already over before it has begun. At least in each 3rd game one of the 2 players got too many or too less mana to play something out.

 

Yu-Gi-Oh dont use this kind of "resource system", they do it by conditions. Like Judgement Dragon by having enough monsters in graveyard. Both can work if you do it right. Of course you need a good balancing for the tribute of a monster. The first s*** we could see is that you needed 2 monsters for Dark Magician and just 1 for Summoned Skull while both have the same power. There are some monsters like Monarchs which seem to have the right balancing in a unbalanced game. There are also ways to pay 4 cards for 1 monsters and have a balanced monster and its still possible to get it out. The Ultimate Ancient Gear Golem just need some changes and the right support and there you could have a nice but expensiv monster.

To have 2 monsters on the field before you tribute summon, is a problem for a card game like this, maybe its possible in Magic but in Yu-Gi-Oh it shoulnt and isnt the main way to play stronger monsters. Is there any other theme in Yu-Gi-Oh next to Monarchs which need tribute summon? Steelswarm or Inverz maybe but the most dont use tribute summon, so it isnt really notable.

[sdkinslayer]

I forgot my last post for a long time. There i was also talking about a game mechanic how to save monsters from battle (maybe also from spell or trap cards). Yes probable this should be also possible, i just need to find the correct rules for it.

 

I forgot i had the answear already as i started the game, because the most mistakes are clearly and solvable. You should be able to stack your normal summons, if you dont normal summon in a turn, you can normal summon 2 times in your later turns.

 

 

There is more sheet in Yu-Gi-Oh we could also discuss, like the limited Zones, just a few effect fixes and it would make the game a lot better. It also makes no sense that you cant play traps same turn you set, because the most arent affected like Bottomless Traphole, Mirror Force but supporting traps and counter traps are affected, its just a reasonless disadvantage and makes the game just worse. Looks like i found the way how we could balance the start of a game. Because it isnt fair if someone start and only thing to balance is it isnt allowed not to attack directly. We need a turn before the first turn happens but without summons for the second starting player. Then he could use his traps and spells like the player who start first -> trap hole for example. After that the second player also needs a rule to be able to stop 1 attack from a monster in the 3rd turn, once and only in this turn. Because the starting player was already able to summon his second monster by normal summon.

[Mysty]

Again more people talking much and say nothing.

 

To a better character.

The resource system of Magic is a horrible mistake. In Hearthstone you see a fixed version (1 way to fix it). Because of this mistake each 3rd game in Magic is already over before it has begun. At least in each 3rd game one of the 2 players got too many or too less mana to play something out.

 

Yu-Gi-Oh dont use this kind of "resource system", they do it by conditions. Like Judgement Dragon by having enough monsters in graveyard. Both can work if you do it right. Of course you need a good balancing for the tribute of a monster. The first s*** we could see is that you needed 2 monsters for Dark Magician and just 1 for Summoned Skull while both have the same power. There are some monsters like Monarchs which seem to have the right balancing in a unbalanced game. There are also ways to pay 4 cards for 1 monsters and have a balanced monster and its still possible to get it out. The Ultimate Ancient Gear Golem just need some changes and the right support and there you could have a nice but expensiv monster.

To have 2 monsters on the field before you tribute summon, is a problem for a card game like this, maybe its possible in Magic but in Yu-Gi-Oh it shoulnt and isnt the main way to play stronger monsters. Is there any other theme in Yu-Gi-Oh next to Monarchs which need tribute summon? Steelswarm or Inverz maybe but the most dont use tribute summon, so it isnt really notable.

I forgot my last post for a long time. There i was also talking about a game mechanic how to save monsters from battle (maybe also from spell or trap cards). Yes probable this should be also possible, i just need to find the correct rules for it.

 

I forgot i had the answear already as i started the game, because the most mistakes are clearly and solvable. You should be able to stack your normal summons, if you dont normal summon in a turn, you can normal summon 2 times in your later turns.

 

 

There is more s*** in Yu-Gi-Oh we could also discuss, like the limited Zones, just a few effect fixes and it would make the game a lot better. It also makes no sense that you cant play traps same turn you set, because the most arent affected like Bottomless Traphole, Mirror Force but supporting traps and counter traps are affected, its just a reasonless disadvantage and makes the game just worse. Looks like i found the way how we could balance the start of a game. Because it isnt fair if someone start and only thing to balance is it isnt allowed not to attack directly. We need a turn before the first turn happens but without summons for the second starting player. Then he could use his traps and spells like the player who start first -> trap hole for example. After that the second player also needs a rule to be able to stop 1 attack from a monster in the 3rd turn, once and only in this turn. Because the starting player was already able to summon his second monster by normal summon.

 

Magic was the first trading card game in English and its resource system was the first one developed. Even if its design has been "improved" by Hearthstone (depends on your definition of improvement, but that's an entire other discussion), it still established that a good resource system should do at least two things:

• Prevent really powerful cards from being played early game due to a high cost.

• Balance out powerful cards by taking away the ability to play other powerful cards or multiple cheaper cards without needing an inordinate amount of the resource (and usually the game is done by then).

In Hearthstone and MtG, they create this greatly, since 7 mana cards (usually) aren't castable until turn 7 and casting a 7 mana spell will (in Mtg, in Hearthstone, essentially always) prohibit the casting of a 4+ cost card in the same round. In other words, a resource system balances out powerful cards with a high cost on a gradually increasing, replenishable resource system.

 

The "conditions resource system" you suggest for yugioh doesn't do both of these. Let's take your Judgment Dragon example. First off, 4 Lightsworns with different names is a laughable task in a lightsworn deck since their entire schtick is to mill their cards. But anyway, imagine we're at the part when we can summon JD and activate its effect. What else can I do that turn? Well, just about everything else I could do anyway; neither summoning JD nor being able to activate its effect removes any of my other options or that turn. Once you bypass the conditions, you can resume to doing basically as much as you want.

 

Summons involving monsters aren't a real resource system either due to the availability to summon powerful monsters even on turn 1 and that the cost used (other cards) isn't easily replenishable. Also, in MTG, we don't need to sacrifice lands/creatures to summon creatures, so I don't know where that was coming from.

 

Many of the mistakes of the game are "clear", but they are about as solvable as Konami's card designing is. Also, many of these "so-called mistakes" you note are constraints designed to promote creativity and prevent extremely powerful plays. (Unfortunately, Konami's card design ruined the second part of that sentence.)

• Being able to "stack" Normal Summons would allow Monarchs to summon a monster in one turn AND tribute it for a Tribute Summon basically right away. The "1 Normal Summon" rule was designed so that you had to protect a monster on the field first before you could Tribute it for a powerful monster (such as Summoned Skull or Monarchs).

• The five-monster zone was to prevent massive swarming and served to "regulate" Scapegoat in a sense. (If you have four tokens that you can't Tribute Summon, you'll only have 1 monster left you can Tribute Summon, reducing your ability to summon a powerful monster.) Inadvertedly, it helped to regulate massive summoning combos that attempt to summon every monster from their Extra deck.

• many Continuous Trap cards are very powerful effects that aren't reliant on the opponent at all (particularly Ultimate Offering, Royal Decree, and Anti-Magic Fragrance). Additionally, some trap cards are very powerful boosts only for YOUR battle phase. The "traps have to be set" rule was designed so that the opponent could destroy them before they became able to be used. Otherwise they might as well get rid of the "can't use Quick-Play spell cards the turn you set them" rule too and forgo having Traps at all and just have the different varieties of spells.

• You haven't kept up with the game too much recently, have you? If so, you would have known that the first player no longer gets to draw a card on their first turn either. In fact, in the current meta, it seems to be a much better move to go second just because of that extra card, even though the opponent gets to set up their field first. (This decision is very meta-dependent, though.) As such, I think they did a good job with removing the advantage from going first.

 

And as you said, your changes would require changing some cards too. At this note, you're changing the rules of the game and many more cards than I'm sure you realize - at this point, you're basically changing the whole game. Since Konami won't do that, you're better off learning a whole new game than complaining about one you can't do anything about.