[DISC] Dark Armed Dragon

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons, the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

Because Krebons is only special because the majority of easy-to-summon monsters are even Leveled, and there is already another Level 2 Psychic Tuner.

[Flame Dragon]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

What makes the support OP'd?

[Saiyan Knight]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

What makes the support OP'd?

 

What do you mean "What makes it OP'd"? Have you not seen TeleDAD at work? It effectively gives you a free Dark monster, a free Synchro monster, and thins the deck by one. It's epic sheet. If that didn't exist? Krebons would be nothing.

[Flame Dragon]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

What makes the support OP'd?

 

What do you mean "What makes it OP'd"? Have you not seen TeleDAD at work? It effectively gives you a free Dark monster, a free Synchro monster, and thins the deck by one. It's epic s***. If that didn't exist? Krebons would be nothing.

You can't say if a card is OP'd based on how it does in the meta. You have to base it on it's effect. If you change the meta and make it so DAD doesn't exist is it't anywhere near as "OP'd" as it is now.

 

Also the free Synchro monster isn't free since it still costs you a card.

[tonisanoob]

nah e tele is the problem

 

and to be even more specific malicious is the problem

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

The only thing of note that separates Krebons from other tuners is his searchability by E-Tele. If E-Tele wasn't the problem, we'd see just as many TeleDAD decks using Frequency Magician or something.

[CrabHelmet]

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

 

Let us first assume, for argument's sake, that Emergency Teleport + Krebons is indeed an unacceptable combo.

 

The only crime that Emergency Teleport has committed is that it is able to Special Summon Krebons. The only crime that Krebons has committed is that it is able to be Special Summoned by Emergency Teleport. Neither card is banworthy on its own, nor can either be identified as the single problem; we simply have two balanced cards that cannot be allowed to co-exist.

 

In this case, we should ban whichever card would, were it to remain, contribute the least to the game. Krebons alone is a generic Tuner with an effect that helps it not die in battle - an effect that, though not a copy of any one other effect, is certainly similar to others such as Dark Resonator, Geomancer of the Ice Boundary, Iceshot User Reice, Nettles, Practitioner of the Ice Boundary, Shiba-Warrior Taro, and X-Saber Passiul. Emergency Teleport, on the other hand, would provide excellent Psychic support. Since neither can be identified as a guilty party, we must keep whichever will allow the most strategies in the absence of the other - and Emergency Teleport certainly fits the bill there.

 

Butterfly Dagger - Elma versus Gearfried goes the same way (although some would argue that Butterfly Dagger is the culprit): the Butterfly Dagger itself does nothing more than to make one bad Guardian monster technically usable (though still not useful), whereas Gearfried can be used with Smoke Grenade of the Thief and Blast with Chain, or to resist effects like an opposing Mark of the Rose or Falling Down. Gearfried provides the most to the game; therefore, Gearfried stays, and Elma goes.

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem, then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

 

This is hardly the least reasonable of systems: whichever helps the game the most stays, and whichever helps the game the least goes.

 

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

This is an interesting discussion topic.

 

If you look at Krebons' date=' the only thing that's really makes him good is his usability with E-Tele. No one really uses him for the effect. It's the OP'd support that makes him wanted. E-Tele is a fast Fiend's Sanctuary that deck thins and can tune.

 

It's like banning Gearfried because of Elma's Dagger.

[/quote']

What makes the support OP'd?

 

What do you mean "What makes it OP'd"?

 

I believe he means "What makes you so certain that it is the support card itself and only the support card that is overpowered?"

 

Have you not seen TeleDAD at work?

 

Yes. And I saw Tele-DAD run a wide variety of rather questionably balanced cards.

 

It effectively gives you a free Dark monster' date=' a free Synchro monster, and thins the deck by one. It's epic s***.

[/quote']

 

This only happens with Krebons around. And even then, "free" requires even more monsters.

 

If that didn't exist? Krebons would be nothing.

 

Precisely.

 

nah e tele is the problem

 

My opinion has been swayed by your well-reasoned argument. You win.

 

Why does everyone assume that the problem is Emergency Teleport and not Krebons?

 

Let's discuss that.

 

The only thing of note that separates Krebons from other tuners is his searchability by E-Tele. If E-Tele wasn't the problem' date=' we'd see just as many TeleDAD decks using Frequency Magician or something.

[/quote']

 

E-Tele can search Frequency Magician now?

 

Neither card alone is the problem. The problem, if anything, is the two together. Only one needs to be removed, and Krebons helps the game the least.

[Flame Dragon]

nah e tele is the problem

 

and to be even more specific malicious is the problem

The only reason these cards are a problem is because of the meta they are in. Change the meta and both won't be anywhere near as problematic as the are now.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Crab brings up a great point. But under the circumstance that another Krebons-like card would come around upon Krebons' removal, I'd see it fit to instead remove Emergency Teleport and leave the other two cards in the game. If that removal would not completely shatter all possibilities of Psychics being a more used deck type, under which case we may need to instate some sort of rule that would allow the card only to be used in a particular deck, or weigh the options again to see if getting rid of two cards is worth keeping 1 support card. The support card being the only reason those cards are banned.

 

After all, Psychics are getting some pretty okay support, and as of now Teleport only serves, competitively, the purpose of making a broken deck more abusable.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

So I guess I get to be ignored?

[CrabHelmet]

Crab brings up a great point. But under the circumstance that another Krebons-like card would come around upon Krebons' removal' date=' I'd see it fit to instead remove Emergency Teleport and leave the other two cards in the game.

[/quote']

 

Apparently you missed the supposedly great point - including something that I explicitly addressed in its very own paragraph. >_>

 

If that removal would not completely shatter all possibilities of Psychics being a more used deck type' date=' under which case we may need to instate some sort of rule that would allow the card only to be used in a particular deck, or weigh the options again to see if getting rid of two cards is worth keeping 1 support card. The support card being the only reason those cards are banned.

[/quote']

 

Okay, you turned around and started talking about "weighing", so I think you're basically saying here what I had said earlier, except with some added stuff about altering the nature of the banlist.

 

After all' date=' Psychics are getting some pretty okay support, and as of now Teleport only serves, competitively, the purpose of making a broken deck more abusable.

[/quote']

 

AS OF NOW

 

So I guess I get to be ignored?

 

Oh, you posted.

 

Prove that Emergency Teleport is a problem when used with one of the other existing Psychic Tuners in the absence of Krebons. Prove that Emergency Teleport contributes less to the game than whatever Tuners with which it conflicts do.

 

If you can prove those two points, then by all means, ban Emergency Teleport.

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Apparently you missed the supposedly great point - including something that I explicitly addressed in its very own paragraph. >_>

 

I was being very hypothetical' date=' perhaps thinking too much in depth. If we saw two cards that could be used in the deck, like Krebons and some good Level 2 Tuner Psychic with some sort of advantageous effect, and only 1 that could assist the deck, that one being the only reason these two cards cannot be played, then you have to think about whether or not the card is banworthy at this point, and if the two cards together might provide more support.

 

Then again, there's also the chance that the Meta will completely change, and there wont be a reason for the combo to be overpowered anymore, or maybe that level 2 Psychic Tuner sucks. It really just depends on how things roll.[/b']

 

Okay, you turned around and started talking about "weighing", so I think you're basically saying here what I had said earlier, except with some added stuff about altering the nature of the banlist.

 

No, not really. You were referring to one card going together with a single card to make a seemingly bannable combo. But if now there are two, the circumstances change. Who is the real culprit here, and what might provide the best, fair play for decks overall? If DAD were gone, then would this card be less absuable and just more usable, even under the given circumstance? Other than that, I have no idea what I meant =[

 

AS OF NOW

 

Yes, as of now. I was just pointing that out.

[CrabHelmet]

I was being very hypothetical' date=' perhaps thinking too much in depth. If we saw two cards that could be used in the deck, like Krebons and some good Level 2 Tuner Psychic with some sort of advantageous effect, and only 1 that could assist the deck, that one being the only reason these two cards cannot be played, then you have to think about whether or not the card is banworthy at this point, and if the two cards together might provide more support.

 

Then again, there's also the chance that the Meta will completely change, and there wont be a reason for the combo to be overpowered anymore, or maybe that level 2 Psychic Tuner sucks. It really just depends on how things roll.

[/quote']

 

The two together might provide more support. On the other hand, suppose the monster were something like this:

 

Kreboffs

[DARK/Psychic/Tuner/Effect/2/1100/100]

You can discard one Spell Card from your hand to inflict 300 damage to your opponent's Life Points.

 

You would need the actual card in order to determine whether the two would outweigh the one.

 

No' date=' not really. You were referring to one card going together with a single card to make a seemingly bannable combo. But if now there are two, the circumstances change. Who is the real culprit here, and what might provide the best, fair play for decks overall? If DAD were gone, then would this card be less absuable and just more usable, even under the given circumstance? Other than that, I have no idea what I meant =[

[/quote']

 

Unless, I'm misunderstanding you, that would seem to be covered by:

 

If another specific Emergency Teleport target is considered a problem' date=' then the combined contributions of that card and Krebons must be weighed against the contributions of Emergency Teleport.

[/quote']

[Zeppeli Gyro Supreme]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying. I guess I didn't read that well enough, or maybe I forgot what I was meaning to say once I started to write it >>;

 

Either way, I still don't feel that Emergency is the problem with Tele-DAD. The circustance it us used under, being able to walk up into a massacred field, or a field that soon would be afterward, makes the combo seem stronger than it really is. At least, that's my opinion.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Krebons is not the banworthy component in that combo, you can use E-Tele with any psychic and it will still be a banworthy card. Special Summon a psychic from your deck, thins the deck and creates monster advantage that can then be tributed or synchroed. And that's just the stuff that doesn't actually require Krebons. Fact: In decks with primarily level five material monsters, Psychic Commander is every bit the problem that Krebons is. Fact: In decks with primarily level 7 material (not that any exist to my knowledge) Mind Master would be an equal problem. Krebons is better because of the popular level six material, Destiny Hero Malicious. That's all.

[Guest Chaos Pudding]

So I guess I get to be ignored?

 

Oh' date=' you posted.

 

Prove that Emergency Teleport is a problem when used with one of the other existing Psychic Tuners in the absence of Krebons. Prove that Emergency Teleport contributes less to the game than whatever Tuners with which it conflicts do.

 

If you can prove those two points, then by all means, ban Emergency Teleport.

[/quote']

 

I don't wish to ban anything in the Krebons/E-Tele combo. If anything needs touching, it's Malicious, but that's another story.

[Lazer Yoshi]

DAD? You're asking if it's "Good"?

Freakin' most popular Card right now.

And I'm not getting in the Conversation above. I don't feel like getting Trolled XD

[Guest PikaPerson01]

Other common, level two psychic tuners exist...

 

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Psychic_Jumper

 

Krebons however is dark, so it's got Allure working for it, and it's effect, and even for the lulz, it's stats, are vastly superior.

 

On-topic: DAD is obviously the broken card in Tele-DAD.

[CrabHelmet]

Krebons is not the banworthy component in that combo' date=' you can use E-Tele with any psychic and it will still be a banworthy card.

[/quote']

 

This implies that the very concept of Emergency Teleport is wholly unacceptable even if it cannot summon Tuners.

 

Special Summon a psychic from your deck' date=' thins the deck and creates monster advantage that can then be tributed or synchroed.

[/quote']

 

Good, you read the effect successfully.

 

Prove that this is bad for the game.

 

And that's just the stuff that doesn't actually require Krebons.

 

Yes.

 

Fact: In decks with primarily level five material monsters' date=' Psychic Commander is every bit the problem that Krebons is.

[/quote']

 

Most decks use a large number of Level 4 monsters, and failure to do so is generally considered to create a disadvantage in most cases. Krebons turns them into Goyou; Psychic Commander just summons Black Rose Dragon.

 

Furthermore, the Level 5 material monsters are more expensive than and/or are inferior to the Level 6 material monsters. On one end of the spectrum, we have stuff like Malicious (which pops up for free twice) and Caius (which is fabulous even without Tuning). On the other end, we have... Instant Fusion (which doesn't pop up for free, requires the payment of Life Points, is useless outside of Tuning, and consumes Extra Deck space) and the Cyber Dragon-esque cards (which rely on an empty field and don't pay for themselves, and are beatsticks outside of Tuning).

 

If you can actually show that Psycho Commander + Level 5 fodder is a problem, then Psycho Commander can step onto Krebons' side of the see-saw. Since this has not actually been shown, he doesn't enter into this.

 

Fact: In decks with primarily level 7 material (not that any exist to my knowledge) Mind Master would be an equal problem.

 

If you can show that Mind Master + Level 7 material (Fuselier Dragon' date=' maybe?) is an actual problem, then good for you. Since it's pretty obvious that you can't, again, Mind Master doesn't impact Krebons versus E-Tele.

 

Krebons is better because of the popular level six material, Destiny Hero Malicious. That's all.

 

Then maybe Malicious is the source of the problem, and the Emergency Teleport + Krebons combo has simply been confounded with it. Or maybe Level 2 has fundamental differences from Level 3 and Level 1. Or maybe the card pool has dictated that the combo is only a problem at exactly Level 2 - in which case, again, the problem is at, well, Level 2.

 

On-topic: DAD is obviously the broken card in Tele-DAD.

 

Indeed.

 

So are Sangan, Dustshoot, Breaker, Reborn, Brain, CCV, and Snipe.

 

Even without looking into the Malicious/E-Tele/Krebons combo, that deck has serious issues.

[Lemniscate]

Okay, so whether or not the deck has issues, or whether or not DaD is the problem, get rid of DaD and the deck dies. It may not be exactly right that DaD dies, but it is the only solution that will kill Tele-DaD without harming other decks, themes, etc.

 

also, I just see Phychic Jumper as a way to get your opponent's tuners. The cost isn't an issue, so if you can keep an opponent's tuner on the field until your turn (problematic), then you can steal it. Or possibly get a monster of the right level from your opponent's field, and use it for a synchro summon.

[CrabHelmet]

Okay' date=' so whether or not the deck has issues, or whether or not DaD is the problem, get rid of DaD and the deck dies.

[/quote']

 

No, it alters its name and changes to a still-existing-but-not-quite-as-ridiculous-as-it-used-to-be form.

 

Of course, you have simultaneously implied that DAD might not be a problem and that powerful decks should be handled banning their headliner cards without considering where the problem actually lies. Being wrong in two completely opposite directions at exactly the same time is an achievement, even for you.

 

It may not be exactly right that DaD dies' date='

[/quote']

 

I laughed.

 

but it is the only solution that will kill Tele-DaD without harming other decks' date=' themes, etc.

[/quote']

 

If banning the banworthy cards would harm other decks and themes, then those other decks and themes ought to be hurt. Yes, banning Monster Reborn would hurt other decks too, but there's a reason it should be banned - decks should not be allowed to use it in the first place.

 

also' date=' I just see Phychic Jumper as a way to get your opponent's tuners.

[/quote']

 

wut

[Lemniscate]

Okay' date=' so whether or not the deck has issues, or whether or not DaD is the problem, get rid of DaD and the deck dies.

[/quote']

 

No, it alters its name and changes to a still-existing-but-not-quite-as-ridiculous-as-it-used-to-be form.

 

Of course, you have simultaneously implied that DAD might not be a problem and that powerful decks should be handled banning their headliner cards without considering where the problem actually lies. Being wrong in two completely opposite directions at exactly the same time is an achievement, even for you.

 

 

well, i do my best.

I was saying that DaD may not be the core main issue within the deck, but by removing it, the deck will die.

And as you said, without DaD it is fixed.

Not two different directions, so use a map next time.

also, i find it interesting that on other threads you have said that DaD is not the problem, but here you just conceded that it is.

It may not be exactly right that DaD dies' date='

[/quote']

 

I laughed.

 

 

 

i laughed back

 

but it is the only solution that will kill Tele-DaD without harming other decks' date=' themes, etc.

[/quote']

 

If banning the banworthy cards would harm other decks and themes, then those other decks and themes ought to be hurt. Yes, banning Monster Reborn would hurt other decks too, but there's a reason it should be banned - decks should not be allowed to use it in the first place.

 

I never meant monster reborn, there are plenty of other cards in Tele-DaD

 

also' date=' I just see Phychic Jumper as a way to get your opponent's tuners.

[/quote']

 

wut

 

 

okay, sorry. i am very tired. i mistyped that.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Then maybe Malicious is the source of the problem' date=' and the Emergency Teleport + Krebons combo has simply been confounded with it. Or maybe Level 2 has fundamental differences from Level 3 and Level 1. Or maybe the card pool [i']has[/i] dictated that the combo is only a problem at exactly Level 2 - in which case, again, the problem is at, well, Level 2.

 

Well i've always said Malicious should be limited. I don't see any problem with E-Tele OR Krebons, but if one had to take the axe it should be Krebons since E-Tele still has a broken effect in the absence of Krebons.

[Megaworm]

Then it's simple. We have to kill the president.

 

 

(AKA EMERGENCY TELEPORT)