Would this card be a staple or should I delete?

[DMZ Dragon]

[Jordan Ashwood]

I'm torn. It's a pretty hard activation requirement, but I think you auto-win if it resolves. Is there any way to get rid of it? I can't think of one, outside of cards like Evenly Matched which force the opponent to do something

[Rongaulius]

It seems gimmicky.  You'd want to stack your Deck with this card on top, meaning the counter is to be able to adjust your opponent's top-deck.

It loses to cards that prevent Special Summons, but since it's a Towers and immune to battle, plus you can't even inflict damage by punching over it...

I think the design isn't something that would be good for the game as a whole.  It'd be inconsistent and frustrating to play, but if you field it successfully, it's infuriating to face off against.  If you're in a mirror match where both players successfully Summon a copy, the game will almost always be a forced draw. 

Indestructible cards probably aren't the best way to fix Yugioh, and they aren't fun for long whether you're using or facing them.

[Jordan Ashwood]

I don't mean to criticize, but I agree whole-heartedly with everything @Rongaulius said.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Very gimmicky and I can tell that the artwork is differently AI-Generated.

[eseer]

Okay, quick question: How does this resolve with Talisman of Trap Sealing??

It says its activation can't be negated, and that it would be forced to activate, but ToTS would forbid it from activating in the first place, right? Is this another Pole Position situation?

[Rongaulius]

1 hour ago, eseer said:

Okay, quick question: How does this resolve with Talisman of Trap Sealing??

It says its activation can't be negated, and that it would be forced to activate, but ToTS would forbid it from activating in the first place, right? Is this another Pole Position situation?

Jinzo also prevents the card from activating as the card's activation becomes illegal while Jinzo is in play.  You cannot attempt illegal plays, even if the card in question's activation or effect cannot be negated. Negation is a response, but prevention happens before activation.

This relates to what was previously discussed in this thread regarding what a card like this means for a duel it's used in, and by extension the game as a whole.  It creates convoluted and confusing game states by its very nature, and if or when it does manage to go off, it creates an almost unwinnable game state for its opponent though it's not technically an alternate win condition.  Even though the card is probably weak enough to not be a major issue in the TCG (side in Jinzo and stop it before it ever goes off), it's a bad idea because of what it's trying to be.  This card is an unkillable boss monster disguised as a Trap card, making Towers or Ultimate Falcon easy to out by comparison.  Even if it never hits the field, this isn't the type of mechanic that should try to exist in Yugioh.6

[Jordan Ashwood]

I don't mean to go off-topic, but as a kinda "designer of a card game", Pole Position is such a scary card. It seems so harmless at first. Like if someone were to just make 20 low-power-level cards, they could easily make a Pole Position by accident.

[Rongaulius]

I think this thread serves as a decent example of why unkillable boss monsters aren't the way to go when designing your own cards and/or archetype.  Making your own monster impossible to kill makes everything your opponent does absolutely pointless.  Adding crazy summoning restrictions doesn't work - Konami already tried that, and what happens is that if the cards are truly impossible to use, they won't be played because they're too inconsistent.  If they're even remotely consistent, they become oppressive.

Look at it this way: If a card is powerful enough that the only way to "balance" it is to make it almost impossible to use, you've just acknowledged that it probably shouldn't be in the game. 

Another analogy might be to reimagine the card's effect text as what it's really doing.  It becomes a monster that is unaffected by everything, is immune to Kaijus, can double its own ATK every turn, can't be destroyed by battle anyway, and you take no battle damage even if your opponent does manage to make something big enough to take it out.  With all that in mind, what this card really wants to say is this:  "If this card is Summoned by its own effect, you cannot lose the Duel." 

That's not a good effect for a card to have.

[Jordan Ashwood]

15 minutes ago, Rongaulius said:

I think this thread serves as a decent example of why unkillable boss monsters aren't the way to go when designing your own cards and/or archetype.  Making your own monster impossible to kill makes everything your opponent does absolutely pointless.  Adding crazy summoning restrictions doesn't work - Konami already tried that, and what happens is that if the cards are truly impossible to use, they won't be played because they're too inconsistent.  If they're even remotely consistent, they become oppressive.

Look at it this way: If a card is powerful enough that the only way to "balance" it is to make it almost impossible to use, you've just acknowledged that it probably shouldn't be in the game. 

Another analogy might be to reimagine the card's effect text as what it's really doing.  It becomes a monster that is unaffected by everything, is immune to Kaijus, can double its own ATK every turn, can't be destroyed by battle anyway, and you take no battle damage even if your opponent does manage to make something big enough to take it out.  With all that in mind, what this card really wants to say is this:  "If this card is Summoned by its own effect, you cannot lose the Duel." 

That's not a good effect for a card to have.

How heavy is your brain?

[Rongaulius]

11 minutes ago, Jordan Ashwood said:

How heavy is your brain?

I have lots of big-brain moments.  Fortunately, my doctor says the swelling should go down soon with minimal lasting brain damage.  Though the paint chips are tasting better and better every day.

[Jordan Ashwood]

10 minutes ago, Rongaulius said:

I have lots of big-brain moments.  Fortunately, my doctor says the swelling should go down soon with minimal lasting brain damage.  Though the paint chips are tasting better and better every day.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

11 hours ago, Rongaulius said:

I have lots of big-brain moments.  Fortunately, my doctor says the swelling should go down soon with minimal lasting brain damage.  Though the paint chips are tasting better and better every day.

Your very smart. I do hope you get betters soon.

[DMZ Dragon]

My brother designed this card to see if I could beat it. Looking at everyone's thoughts made me realize that my brother really did leave ways for this card to be beaten. My question still stands though; would anybody play this card?

[DMZ Dragon]

On 3/7/2024 at 7:36 AM, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Very gimmicky and I can tell that the artwork is differently AI-Generated.

I didn't see anything against AI generated artwork in the rules. Did I miss something?

19 hours ago, Jordan Ashwood said:

I don't mean to go off-topic, but as a kinda "designer of a card game", Pole Position is such a scary card. It seems so harmless at first. Like if someone were to just make 20 low-power-level cards, they could easily make a Pole Position by accident.

What is wrong with Pole Position?

[Jordan Ashwood]

Pole Position is a card someone can easily read and say "yeah this is harmless!" but it creates a ton of infinite loops. Here's a simple example:

I have LaJinn (1800) and Judge Man (2200) on the field. I equip LaJinn with Axe of Despair (+1000) giving him 2800 ATK. Then Pole Position is flipped.

The highest-ATK monster (LaJinn) is suddenly unaffected by spells. Unaffected by Axe, his ATK drops to 1800. Now Judge Man is the strongest, so LaJinn is no longer unaffected by spells. Axe gives it 1000 ATK again. Now it IS the strongest, so it becomes unaffected. Back to 1800. Now it's not. Infinite loop! It's so easy to accidentally make a card like that.

[Rongaulius]

16 minutes ago, DMZ Dragon said:

I didn't see anything against AI generated artwork in the rules. Did I miss something?

What is wrong with Pole Position?

Pole Position can create an infinite loop, resulting in a game state that cannot resolve.

Regarding the card, yes there are ways to stop it from going off.  SPYRAL comes to mind as probably the hardest of hard counters to this card.

That isn't really relevant.   What is relevant is that that when this card does what it was designed to do, it creates a very unfun game state.  It's supposed to win the game on its own by being indestructible,  and it manages that.  

Amusingly enough, if this card were real, it would actually make cards that force your opponent to draw more viable, as those would allow you to force your opponent to prematurely draw the trap they want to see during their draw phase, making it useless.

This thread hasn't really outright answered whether or not this card would be a staple or a stinker.  It isn't very splashable; you'd want to draw it as early as possible but wouldn't want to see it in your starting hand, so running 3 is a bad idea.  But if you don't run 3, your odds of drawing into it drop drastically. That means that this is the kind of card you build a deck around with the win condition being successfully resolving this one Trap card after stacking it on top of your deck.  If it were ever a part of the TCG, it would more than likely be as its own strategy and not a generic staple.

[eseer]

1 hour ago, Rongaulius said:

This thread hasn't really outright answered whether or not this card would be a staple or a stinker.  It isn't very splashable; you'd want to draw it as early as possible but wouldn't want to see it in your starting hand, so running 3 is a bad idea. 

Magical Mallet, Boogie Trap + Jar of Avarice, and Pharaoh's Treasure + Slash Draw would like to have words with you.

[Rongaulius]

1 hour ago, eseer said:

Magical Mallet, Boogie Trap + Jar of Avarice, and Pharaoh's Treasure + Slash Draw would like to have words with you.

I was referring to the card not being splashable.  The cards you mentioned are only mained in decks that are running those cards for a very specific reason, such as Exodia strategies.  Those decks are centered around having extremely specific cards in hand, so they'll play cards such as the ones you listed in order to be able to see the one or two cards they really want to see.  The cards you listed are generally considered too weak as they're all -1 in card advantage, so they only see play in gimmick decks centered around specific cards.

FYI Boogie Trap doesn't work with this card since it can only be activated if you draw it during your normal draw phase.

One minor thing I just realized has been overlooked until now is the fact that the Trap's activation is forced if it leaves your hand.  

That lands it squarely in obscenely busted territory.  Play Danger Dark World, discard it for cost and it goes off.  That is the most ridiculously busted card design I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something.  I missed it before, but...no.  That's just bad card design.  It's basically an auto-win that you'd want to have in every opening hand just to pitch it to force its activation.  Literally any deck can find a way to make it work.

That is not a good thing and this isnt a compliment.  This card's design is just plain bad. If you want to have fun playing Yugioh, you need a balanced game.  This card is the furthest thing imaginable from balanced.

[eseer]

2 minutes ago, Rongaulius said:

FYI Boogie Trap doesn't work with this card since it can only be activated if you draw it during your normal draw phase.

 

I meant using boogie trap to drop off Avarice and James, set Avarice, then shuffle james. Hence the +Jar

[Rongaulius]

Since this thread seems to be on a roll…

“To activate this card, you must draw it for your normal draw in your Draw Phase. If this card is drawn due to another card’s effect: Shuffle it back into the Deck. If this card in your Spell/Trap Zone would be removed from your side of the field or if it would leave your hand (except by setting it): Force its activation.”

There’s a lot to take in here, and it’s a jumbled mess of ideas that all work against each other. Firstly, the activation condition of drawing the card for your normal draw is clearly meant to balance out the card’s effect by making it very hard to activate. You’re supposed to be able to activate it by drawing into it, or else it becomes similar to Waking the Dragon. The idea seems to be that you either have to top-deck it or else add one to your hand by a card effect (which is NOT the same as drawing by a card effect), both of which are presumably difficult to do. They are...however the effect to shuffle itself back into the Deck is an effect that makes it leave your hand. Meaning the activation becomes forced if it’s drawn by a card effect, because it’s leaving the hand…

That one wasn’t thought through at all. Nor was the idea of having it be another WtD if nuked in the Spell/Trap Zone. WtD has a restriction on only going off if nuked by an opponent’s card for a reason. If you could detonate your own Waking the Dragon to proc its effect, it’d be banned in a heartbeat; there are no shortage of cards that let you blow up your own cards, so it becomes a free Extra Deck monster of your choice. Hence the reason Waking the Dragon only goes off if it’s blown up by an opponent’s card. When I read the card’s text yesterday, I completely missed the activation requirements while considering the actual payoff. Pretty much everything I previously said about this card being inconsistent was wrong; it’s way, way too consistent.

And if you think that’s a good thing, print off a set of proxies and try playing against them. You’ll learn real quick just how infuriating a card like this would be to play against and how abusable it is. Don’t take that as a compliment, either; there’s a difference between a powerful card and a busted one. Topologic Gumblar Dragon was busted, as an example. Number 16: Shock Master is busted. Mystic Mine is busted. There are technically ways to out all of those cards, but they’re all extremely toxic to try to play through. Gumblar can just rip your hand away before you ever get a chance to play. Shock Master can shut down your Deck by preventing you from activating the effects of cards of a certain type for a turn. Mystic Mine...don’t even get me started. It’s Shock Master as a field spell that only works on monsters. None of those cards were fun to play against in their time, because the whole point of them was to prevent the opponent from playing the game.

The somewhat ostentatiously-named “Jack, King of all Trap Cards” falls squarely in the same category as those toxic cards. It doesn’t prevent the opponent from playing, but it makes almost everything they can do irrelevant. I can think of several ways to beat this card after it hits the field, but none of those ways involve actually dealing with the card itself. The options are burn decks, mill strategies, or giving your opponent a weak monster and then crashing something huge into it.

Moving on to the last bit of text in the effect: “If this card leaves the field, your opponent wins the Duel.” And exactly how the f**k is this card supposed to leave the field? Would someone mind explaining that bit to me, because I don’t think there’s a way to remove it once it lands. This effect sounds good on paper, but in reality is completely pointless because there’s no way to kill the dumb thing.

Here’s how the card might look if it was actually designed with consideration to the fact that Yugioh is a two-player game, and that the person playing this card isn’t an anime protagonist:

“If you draw this card for your normal Draw during your Draw Phase, you can activate this card. This card’s activation and effect cannot be negated. If this Set Card leaves your field or hand from an opponent’s card effect: Declare 1 Type and Attribute, then Special Summon this card as an Effect Monster (Level 7/ATK 2500/DEF 2000) with the declared Type and Attribute (this card is also still treated as a Trap Card) with the following effects: This card is unaffected by an opponent’s cards and effects. This card cannot be destroyed by battle; neither player takes any battle damage from battles involving this card. If this card in its owner’s control leaves the Monster Zone from an opponent’s card: You can Set 1 “Jack, King of all Trap Cards” from your hand or Deck, and if you do, you take no Battle Damage while you control that Set Card.”

First of all, it fixes the convoluted mechanics surrounding the original activation condition. Secondly, it’s nowhere near as invulnerable as it was although it’s still hard to deal with. Thirdly, while it prevents its owner from taking damage, it also doesn’t deal any damage itself and it loses the ability to double its own ATK every turn. Let’s put the original ATK boost into perspective, shall we? We’ll assume the card was activated by drawing into it. It hits the field with 2500 ATK which is immediately doubled to 5000. Not enough for lethal, but close. Do some damage with that, then double it again during your opponent’s turn to 10,000. Since your opponent has no way to deal with it, it passes back to your turn where the ATK of this card is promptly doubled AGAIN to 20,000. If your opponent somehow manages to survive for another turn, this card will have 80,000 ATK by the time your turn rolls around again.

Anyway. The last thing the revised edition does is replace itself and then force your opponent to deal with it before they can cook your LP. It can’t be negated, etc. It accomplishes protecting your LP without making your opponent want to resort to physically harming your life.

[DMZ Dragon]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:53 AM, Rongaulius said:

Since this thread seems to be on a roll…

“To activate this card, you must draw it for your normal draw in your Draw Phase. If this card is drawn due to another card’s effect: Shuffle it back into the Deck. If this card in your Spell/Trap Zone would be removed from your side of the field or if it would leave your hand (except by setting it): Force its activation.”

There’s a lot to take in here, and it’s a jumbled mess of ideas that all work against each other. Firstly, the activation condition of drawing the card for your normal draw is clearly meant to balance out the card’s effect by making it very hard to activate. You’re supposed to be able to activate it by drawing into it, or else it becomes similar to Waking the Dragon. The idea seems to be that you either have to top-deck it or else add one to your hand by a card effect (which is NOT the same as drawing by a card effect), both of which are presumably difficult to do. They are...however the effect to shuffle itself back into the Deck is an effect that makes it leave your hand. Meaning the activation becomes forced if it’s drawn by a card effect, because it’s leaving the hand…

That one wasn’t thought through at all. Nor was the idea of having it be another WtD if nuked in the Spell/Trap Zone. WtD has a restriction on only going off if nuked by an opponent’s card for a reason. If you could detonate your own Waking the Dragon to proc its effect, it’d be banned in a heartbeat; there are no shortage of cards that let you blow up your own cards, so it becomes a free Extra Deck monster of your choice. Hence the reason Waking the Dragon only goes off if it’s blown up by an opponent’s card. When I read the card’s text yesterday, I completely missed the activation requirements while considering the actual payoff. Pretty much everything I previously said about this card being inconsistent was wrong; it’s way, way too consistent.

And if you think that’s a good thing, print off a set of proxies and try playing against them. You’ll learn real quick just how infuriating a card like this would be to play against and how abusable it is. Don’t take that as a compliment, either; there’s a difference between a powerful card and a busted one. Topologic Gumblar Dragon was busted, as an example. Number 16: Shock Master is busted. Mystic Mine is busted. There are technically ways to out all of those cards, but they’re all extremely toxic to try to play through. Gumblar can just rip your hand away before you ever get a chance to play. Shock Master can shut down your Deck by preventing you from activating the effects of cards of a certain type for a turn. Mystic Mine...don’t even get me started. It’s Shock Master as a field spell that only works on monsters. None of those cards were fun to play against in their time, because the whole point of them was to prevent the opponent from playing the game.

The somewhat ostentatiously-named “Jack, King of all Trap Cards” falls squarely in the same category as those toxic cards. It doesn’t prevent the opponent from playing, but it makes almost everything they can do irrelevant. I can think of several ways to beat this card after it hits the field, but none of those ways involve actually dealing with the card itself. The options are burn decks, mill strategies, or giving your opponent a weak monster and then crashing something huge into it.

Moving on to the last bit of text in the effect: “If this card leaves the field, your opponent wins the Duel.” And exactly how the f**k is this card supposed to leave the field? Would someone mind explaining that bit to me, because I don’t think there’s a way to remove it once it lands. This effect sounds good on paper, but in reality is completely pointless because there’s no way to kill the dumb thing.

Here’s how the card might look if it was actually designed with consideration to the fact that Yugioh is a two-player game, and that the person playing this card isn’t an anime protagonist:

“If you draw this card for your normal Draw during your Draw Phase, you can activate this card. This card’s activation and effect cannot be negated. If this Set Card leaves your field or hand from an opponent’s card effect: Declare 1 Type and Attribute, then Special Summon this card as an Effect Monster (Level 7/ATK 2500/DEF 2000) with the declared Type and Attribute (this card is also still treated as a Trap Card) with the following effects: This card is unaffected by an opponent’s cards and effects. This card cannot be destroyed by battle; neither player takes any battle damage from battles involving this card. If this card in its owner’s control leaves the Monster Zone from an opponent’s card: You can Set 1 “Jack, King of all Trap Cards” from your hand or Deck, and if you do, you take no Battle Damage while you control that Set Card.”

First of all, it fixes the convoluted mechanics surrounding the original activation condition. Secondly, it’s nowhere near as invulnerable as it was although it’s still hard to deal with. Thirdly, while it prevents its owner from taking damage, it also doesn’t deal any damage itself and it loses the ability to double its own ATK every turn. Let’s put the original ATK boost into perspective, shall we? We’ll assume the card was activated by drawing into it. It hits the field with 2500 ATK which is immediately doubled to 5000. Not enough for lethal, but close. Do some damage with that, then double it again during your opponent’s turn to 10,000. Since your opponent has no way to deal with it, it passes back to your turn where the ATK of this card is promptly doubled AGAIN to 20,000. If your opponent somehow manages to survive for another turn, this card will have 80,000 ATK by the time your turn rolls around again.

Anyway. The last thing the revised edition does is replace itself and then force your opponent to deal with it before they can cook your LP. It can’t be negated, etc. It accomplishes protecting your LP without making your opponent want to resort to physically harming your life.

I like the way you think. Would I be wrong to think you play competitively? Also, my brother made this card to see if I could beat it. Jordan Ashwood pointed out it could be taken care of with evenly Matched, which forces the controller to banish their own cards

Edited March 11, 2024 by DMZ Dragon

[Yᵤₘₐ ₖₐᵢbₐ]

Who will Win between this card and "Jinzo"..?

[DMZ Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Yuma Kaiba said:

Who will Win between this card and "Jinzo"..?

I think Jinzo stops this card from activating at all. The "force its activation" effect wouldn't be able to trigger, and the player wouldn't be allowed to activate it by their own decision. Rongaulius explained It better somewhere else.

[Rongaulius]

37 minutes ago, DMZ Dragon said:

I like the way you think. Would I be wrong to think you play competitively? Also, my brother made this card to see if I could beat it. Jordan Ashwood pointed out it could be taken care of with evenly Matched, which forces the controller to banish their own cards

I tend to pay attention to what the competitive meta is, but I've never played competitively because I don't like meta-style game play.  Not yo mention the cost of a deck that could actually be competitive (and that I'd enjoy playing) is somewhat prohibitive.  

I've (accidentally) designed my fair share of busted cards over the years and have learned a thing or two about them.  

Evenly Matched itself counts as 1 card on the field unless you can blow up your own Evenly Matched as chain link 2.  If you activate Evenly from your hand, you still control 1 card and so your opponent gets to keep 1 as well. Evenly Matched followed by MST to destroy EM does work, but neither one of those cards is really searchable under most circumstances.  You're stuck hard-drawing both cards, which some gimmicky decks could probably do.  But those decks probably lose to literally any strategy that doesn't revolve around Jack.