[TCG] January 1st Banlist

[~British Soul~]

https://www.yugioh-card.com/eu/play/forbidden-and-limited-list/

Banned:
Agido the Ancient Sentinel
Kelbek the Ancient Vanguard
Mathmech Circular
Isolde, Two Tales of the Noble Knights

Limited:
Orcust Harp Horror
Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders
Rescue-ACE Air Lifter
Unchained Soul of Sharvara
Sunavalon Dryas
Sunvine Healer
Ib the World Chalice Justiciar
Snatch Steal
Gozen Match
Rivalry of Warlords
There Can Be Only One

Semi-Limited:
Dinowrestler Pankratops
Speedroid Terrortop
Purrely Sleepy Memory

Unlimited:
Infernity Archfiend
Kashtira Unicorn
Mind Control
Pot of Desires
Spellbook of Judgment
Spright Starter
Upstart Goblin

[Sleepy]

I've been waiting for Redox and Mind Control to move this way for a long time, knowing their impact is not gonna be too big, but I just want some of my casual decks to be able to put them in.

Desires should have never been at less than 3.
Orcust, Spellbook, and Infernity players must be happy xD
Sleepy Memory wrecks me a little bit but not too much, being the only ok deck I got for modern day.
The 3 floodgate traps, good riddance and I hope this is enough xD
Terrortop I thought was already at 3 lol

I can't believe we live in a time when something like Pankratops is not even mained as a tech in Dinosaur builds, let alone all decks.... and I also get why and have gotten it out of decks after testing lots of times xD

 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

7 hours ago, Sleepy said:

I've been waiting for Redox and Mind Control to move this way for a long time, knowing their impact is not gonna be too big, but I just want some of my casual decks to be able to put them in.

Desires should have never been at less than 3.
Orcust, Spellbook, and Infernity players must be happy xD
Sleepy Memory wrecks me a little bit but not too much, being the only ok deck I got for modern day.
The 3 floodgate traps, good riddance and I hope this is enough xD
Terrortop I thought was already at 3 lol

I can't believe we live in a time when something like Pankratops is not even mained as a tech in Dinosaur builds, let alone all decks.... and I also get why and have gotten it out of decks after testing lots of times xD

 

Yeah meanwhile... Finner is still at (3) copies.

[Raikoh130]

Snatch Steal is at 1 now, but not Premature Burial? Ok Konami. 

I like how 3 of the Dragon Rulers are partying together in the Limited Section, while Tidal in the Forbidden Section: 
 

13 hours ago, Sleepy said:

The 3 floodgate traps, good riddance and I hope this is enough xD

Skill Drain is still at 3 tho.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Raikoh130

[Sleepy]

22 minutes ago, Raikoh130 said:

Snatch Steal is at 1 now, but not Premature Burial? Ok Konami. 

I like how 3 of the Dragon Rulers are partying together in the Limited Section, while Tidal in the Forbidden Section: 
 

Skill Drain is still at 3 tho.

Haven't seen anybody run Skill Drain in a long time. Doesn't prevent you from playing your cards or using shenanigans that can bypass the on-field negation. Self-Tributes or cost sending work really well. Like with Enemy Controller's Tribute, Droplet's sending cost, Stardust/Exiled Force/Archfiend Eccentrick all are examples of things that work under it. Or if you destroy your own monster in a chain when you activate it, or even if you flip it with like Book of Moon and stuff... all those will resolve your monster effects just fine and you'd get the windows to get rid of the card.

Also, if Skill Drain were to be hit, there are substitutes out there like "Lose 1 Turn" or "Underdog". Which are a lot less effective but that puts them in the threshold of "Nobody is using them, even if there were no better options".

It can be annoying if you don't have any of the tools to deal with it or play under it, but I don't think most of the decks playing competitively really lack those tools.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

1 hour ago, Raikoh130 said:

Snatch Steal is at 1 now, but not Premature Burial? Ok Konami. 

I like how 3 of the Dragon Rulers are partying together in the Limited Section, while Tidal in the Forbidden Section: 
 

Skill Drain is still at 3 tho.

Yes that is Konami for you.

Okay I sent you a DM are you mad with me still?

[The Nyx Avatar]

Ever since Blaster and Tempest got lifted from their bans, I had been waiting patiently for Redox to join them. I don't care about Tidal, though.

 

Isolde hurts. But at least Ib gets a lift. Which is nice, given I bought both many moons ago. 

 

Nice to see Snatch Steal again, I suppose. No strong opinions. Just a neat addition.

 

Gozen Match, Rivalry of Warlords, and There Can Be Only One? I will not miss.

 

For the Unlimited, everything but Kashtira Unicorn and Spright Starter are certainly fascinating to see!

And...yeah

[Thomas★Zero]

The one change on the list I find interesting is Upstart Goblin to 3 as TCG Konami I thought was against draw cards like this for just mass drawing, but still it means its the return of 37 card decks. 

[Rongaulius]

4 hours ago, Thomas★Zero said:

The one change on the list I find interesting is Upstart Goblin to 3 as TCG Konami I thought was against draw cards like this for just mass drawing, but still it means its the return of 37 card decks. 

I guess that depends on whether or not 40-card decks are the standard in a given format.  If they are, and they all utilize hyper-compact engines that HAVE to see specific cards, running Upstart Goblin looks pretty good.  If you're running any more than 40 cards, or need extra space for engine/combo pieces, there isn't much point in running it.

With the prevalence of hand traps, I question whether or not Upstart will really be a staple 3-of.  If you open one and are going second, you only have four cards in hand to try to interrupt your opponent on T1 and that might be the difference between them going full combo or not. And if you do manage to open one, but your opponent used up a lot of the clock to run their plays, you may not want to give them that extra 1k LP because it might be just enough to make you lose to Time. We'll see how it ultimately plays out, but my guess is that Upstart won't have much of an impact at all.

[Sleepy]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:11 AM, Thomas★Zero said:

The one change on the list I find interesting is Upstart Goblin to 3 as TCG Konami I thought was against draw cards like this for just mass drawing, but still it means its the return of 37 card decks. 

That would be the case for most of the game's history, but it seems there's enough more preferred cards in the game's card pool like "Three Tactics Talents" (basically a Spell that's like a fusion between Pot of Greed and Change of Heart), that a simple +1 is no longer making the cut for the most relevant decks or even the tier 2 ones.
Also, there's more hand trap action nowadays so they don't really seem to care that stuff like Royal Magical Library's FTKS would be enabled through stuff like this. Heck Toon Bookmark is a 4th copy of Table of Contents.

My prediction is that we are on the way towards eventually being able to unban Pot of Greed the day a simple +1 draw Spell with no real costs or conditions becomes as impactful as what Upstart Goblin feels like nowadays. I think even stuff like Desires, Prosperity, and Extravagance are falling out of general use and only seeing play in niche places as it is.
I don't think I'd like a point in which Pot of Greed would be considered "ok" or "for underdog decks that'd need that consistency and aren't pressed for space as it is" the way Upstart seems to be nowadays, but that's still what I imagine will happen.

[Raikoh130]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:00 PM, Sleepy said:

That would be the case for most of the game's history, but it seems there's enough more preferred cards in the game's card pool like "Three Tactics Talents" (basically a Spell that's like a fusion between Pot of Greed and Change of Heart), that a simple +1 is no longer making the cut for the most relevant decks or even the tier 2 ones.
Also, there's more hand trap action nowadays so they don't really seem to care that stuff like Royal Magical Library's FTKS would be enabled through stuff like this. Heck Toon Bookmark is a 4th copy of Table of Contents.

My prediction is that we are on the way towards eventually being able to unban Pot of Greed the day a simple +1 draw Spell with no real costs or conditions becomes as impactful as what Upstart Goblin feels like nowadays. I think even stuff like Desires, Prosperity, and Extravagance are falling out of general use and only seeing play in niche places as it is.
I don't think I'd like a point in which Pot of Greed would be considered "ok" or "for underdog decks that'd need that consistency and aren't pressed for space as it is" the way Upstart seems to be nowadays, but that's still what I imagine will happen.

Yeah, I agree with the Upstart at 3 not being an issue. It really isn't needed because Modern Yu-Gi-Oh just runs combos and setting up board full of negates that you end up lowering your Deck count anyway.

Pot of Greed, on the other hand, will always continue being powerful, since it's a +1 for your hand majority of the time (unless you went through your entire deck and are left with 1 card). I can see that card being slapped into almost every deck in Modern Yu-Gi-Oh. It won't damage the game too tremendously like it did in older Yu-Gi-Oh, but it sure will still be a powerful addition that would be used.

Now the worst offender to come off that list would be Graceful Charity. Its not a +1 like Pot of Greed does normally, but it grants even more pluses with it setting up Graveyard fodder abuse. That's even more scary to see in Modern Yu-Gi-Oh.

Edited January 6 by Raikoh130

[Sleepy]

2 hours ago, Raikoh130 said:

Yeah, I agree with the Upstart at 3 not being an issue. It really isn't needed because Modern Yu-Gi-Oh just runs combos and setting up board full of negates that you end up lowering your Deck count anyway.

Pot of Greed, on the other hand, will always continue being powerful, since it's a +1 for your hand majority of the time (unless you went through your entire deck and are left with 1 card). I can see that card being slapped into almost every deck in Modern Yu-Gi-Oh. It won't damage the game too tremendously like it did in older Yu-Gi-Oh, but it sure will still be a powerful addition that would be used.

Now the worst offender to come off that list would be Graceful Charity. Its not a +1 like Pot of Greed does normally, but it grants even more pluses with it setting up Graveyard fodder abuse. That's even more scary to see in Modern Yu-Gi-Oh.

I agree with that assessment of Pot of Greed for present time, but I'd still be open to the idea that there'll be a dystopian future where +2s are deemed the same way as we are now deeming Upstart Goblin xD Who knows how long it'd take but I've learned not to say X card could never come off the list haha.

[Rongaulius]

When evaluating Pot of Greed, it's important (first of all) to remember that no one actually knows what it does...

If the game of Yugioh changes to where card advantage isn't as important as it currently is, PoG can come off the banlist.  That would require a complete change in core game rules and mechanics, so that scenario is highly unlikely.

What we tend to see as the meta becomes ever more powerful is that card advantage commands more and more of a premium, making cards like PoG ever more valuable and powerful.  The more powerful one card is, the more you want to see that one card. You might not want to banish 10 cards with Desires, or lose 6 random Extra Deck monsters with Extravagance, or pitch 6 of your choice to use Prosperity.  A lot of decks can't afford the cost of those cards.  But...any deck can afford PoG.  There's no reason not to run it, even if you 're running a deck like Grass that just wants to dump itself to the GY as fast as possible.  There's still a good chance you might not open your Grass, so PoG gives you extra chances at it.  The lack of downsides paired with the inherent +1 is why PoG doesn't compare well with other draw cards.  Not to mention, every copy of PoG is always live.  The only way to stop a player from using more than one copy of PoG is something like Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell, but no one is going to run that card just to counter PoG.  What you'd do instead is run three copies of PoG in your own deck to level the playing field.

And then the problem becomes "who draws it first". If PoG is at one, it's unfair because that duel will probably be won by whoever finds their PoG first.  At two, pretty much the same problem.  At three, there's a decent chance both players will see one in their starting hand.  So then going first will probably decide the duel outcome, as the first player will more than likely be ready to stop the second player's PoG from resolving.  PoG becomes the critical point of pretty much every combo; stop your opponent's PoG from going off or else yours will never resolve.  This may sound crazy, but I think PoG would be more balanced if it had a clause like Super Poly where neither player could activate cards or effects in response to its activation or effect. But THEN you'd have a lot of decks running Anti-Spell Fragrance, which would in turn need to be banned...

Bottom line, I don't believe PoG can really be compared with other draw cards, or that it can ever safely come off the banlist while the game remains base around card advantage.

[Raikoh130]

4 hours ago, Rongaulius said:

When evaluating Pot of Greed, it's important (first of all) to remember that no one actually knows what it does...

If the game of Yugioh changes to where card advantage isn't as important as it currently is, PoG can come off the banlist.  That would require a complete change in core game rules and mechanics, so that scenario is highly unlikely.

What we tend to see as the meta becomes ever more powerful is that card advantage commands more and more of a premium, making cards like PoG ever more valuable and powerful.  The more powerful one card is, the more you want to see that one card. You might not want to banish 10 cards with Desires, or lose 6 random Extra Deck monsters with Extravagance, or pitch 6 of your choice to use Prosperity.  A lot of decks can't afford the cost of those cards.  But...any deck can afford PoG.  There's no reason not to run it, even if you 're running a deck like Grass that just wants to dump itself to the GY as fast as possible.  There's still a good chance you might not open your Grass, so PoG gives you extra chances at it.  The lack of downsides paired with the inherent +1 is why PoG doesn't compare well with other draw cards.  Not to mention, every copy of PoG is always live.  The only way to stop a player from using more than one copy of PoG is something like Cursed Seal of the Forbidden Spell, but no one is going to run that card just to counter PoG.  What you'd do instead is run three copies of PoG in your own deck to level the playing field.

And then the problem becomes "who draws it first". If PoG is at one, it's unfair because that duel will probably be won by whoever finds their PoG first.  At two, pretty much the same problem.  At three, there's a decent chance both players will see one in their starting hand.  So then going first will probably decide the duel outcome, as the first player will more than likely be ready to stop the second player's PoG from resolving.  PoG becomes the critical point of pretty much every combo; stop your opponent's PoG from going off or else yours will never resolve.  This may sound crazy, but I think PoG would be more balanced if it had a clause like Super Poly where neither player could activate cards or effects in response to its activation or effect. But THEN you'd have a lot of decks running Anti-Spell Fragrance, which would in turn need to be banned...

Bottom line, I don't believe PoG can really be compared with other draw cards, or that it can ever safely come off the banlist while the game remains base around card advantage.

I agree with this statement, tho I still believe Graceful Charity would be the worst draw card to come off the list than Pot of Greed would. Pot gives advantage, yes, but Graceful has hand manipulation and Graveyard filler attached to it. Turning your dead Graveyard-active cards in your hand active has a lot more advantages.

[Rongaulius]

4 hours ago, Raikoh130 said:

I agree with this statement, tho I still believe Graceful Charity would be the worst draw card to come off the list than Pot of Greed would. Pot gives advantage, yes, but Graceful has hand manipulation and Graveyard filler attached to it. Turning your dead Graveyard-active cards in your hand active has a lot more advantages.

Good point.  I forgot about Graceful, but it's more potent than even PoG in a modern environment.  It digs even deeper into your Deck and gives you free GY setup on top of the draw, though it's technically a net even in card advantage.