No AI for Card Maker: Petition and Open Letter to YCMaker

[cr47t]

[Please see bottom of this original post for updates to this ongoing situation]

It has recently come to the attention of me and some other YCM users that AI is now a built-in feature for the YCM card maker. This is a petition requesting that YCMaker remove this feature from the card maker page, along with some reasons why.

Generative image AI (presumably what is being used here) is very popular at the moment, and a large technological achievement, but it is not without its risks both practical and ethical. Already on image-oriented sites like ArtStation and to an extent Deviantart, the incorporation of AI has been met with backlash against its user base for basing its results on existing works without the consent of or payment towards the artists whose work is being used, and rightly so. When done by human hands in such a direct way, it is correctly labelled as copyright infringement, theft, and even plagiarism. I do not see why it should be any different when the result is completely by computer means.

To add to this, AI stand on shaky legal ground, as per the Getty Images lawsuit and related charges: even if the court does rule in favor of the AI being fair use, this will not mitigate the threat to YCM as a site, as Yu-Gi-Oh owners Konami is known for keeping a tight hand on their own card art; in addition, they have also taken decisive action against percieved copyright infringers in the past (primarily Dueling Network). If the posting of AI-assisted cards is brought to Konami's attention - even if the feature is removed by then - Konami may take similar action against YCM thus putting an effective end to our community and any profits YCM may make. This risk is mitigated if AI is removed as a part of the card maker itself, for in such a case, even if someone were to generate an AI image outside of the card maker and then upload it manually, it would be easier for YCM to argue that such would be the result of an individual user, and not the entire site's responsibility.

The use of AI as a built-in feature of the card maker is both a disgrace and threat to the Yugioh Card Maker website, and thus I/we request it be removed as soon and as thoroughly as possible. Those who agree, please post your shared concern below, but don't start a flame war as such would distract from the overall point.

@YCMaker

EDIT 6/12/23: If you as a forum reader don't mind, please view the replies by date rather than by vote, especially if you want to trace the path of the discussion w/o going back and forth. [In addition to community feedback, I and others have elaborated/added to their original positions.] The option should be right below this original post, on the right side of the page if using a regular computer screen.
EDIT 6/22/23: I should have made this edit a while ago but YCMaker (site owner) has responded in this thread and has decided to switch to Adobe Firefly as a generator when available to the public, mainly because Firefly actually plans to keep its generative pool in check and to compensate artists when it can, which will effectively solve many if not most of the ethical complaints of the AI issue. The complaint was never the existence of AI itself but the recklessness of its current function (across the board, not just on YCM): I've tried to clear this up in follow-up posts in the thread, but I will keep the original title and post intact for posterity's sake and so people can see how the discourse has gone, and I will keep the thread open in case new developments occur.
EDIT 7/11/23: Since the conversation here on this thread seems to have run its course, I am highlighting YCMaker's proposal for resolution as the "best solution" - I refrained from doing this earlier as I'm not sure if it's gonna lock the thread or something, but now I think it ought to resolve the thread and prevent any egging on. I will keep an eye out for Firefly and post about it when it releases, or if any cracks in Firefly's resolution are reported credibly. If enough time passes so that posting here would count as a necrobump, or if this thread gets locked, I'll make a new thread for that.

EDIT 9/21/2023: Adobe Firefly is reportedly out of beta @YCMaker @Falling Pizza please take a look.

 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

4 minutes ago, KH911 said:

I just saw this discussion now and decided to weigh on this as well:

1. I'm not aware of how AI generates art, so that might change things. I agree that artists/writers/etc. should be credited for their work, and if I was using art made by someone else, I'll make sure to credit them if I can (hard to credit stock images). However, AI generated art is completely new material, it's newly created and belongs to the AI, which is something you cannot credit. Now if the AI generation uses other artists material without crediting them, that would be a problem the AI generation tool, but it's not fair to guilt someone for using the tool. If I prompt an AI to create art for my card, all I did was use an existing tool, the fault lies with the one who created the tool. As someone else stated, using AI generated images is no different from using stock images.

2. Nothing on this site is Konami's property. We create the cards, we (or AI) create the art, so Konami has no grounds to copyright strike anything. Even if YCM made money off of this, it's still the YCM user's property, not Konami's, so they shouldn't be able to take legal action. Now on the off-chance that Konami is able to sue, AI changes nothing. Whether the art is human or AI generated, it's still a Yugioh card and Konami would come after it regardless.

3. Before the AI art generator was implemented on this site, I didn't even use the card maker because I had no access to art. I'm not an artist, I don't know any artists, and I'm not willing to pay someone for art on something I do just for fun. The existence of the AI art generator allowed to actually create some images so my cards are a bit more presentable.

4. I don't think AI art is ever going to outclass human artists. As several others have already said, AI art is bland, generic, and usually isn't even what I want. Every time I post a card that used AI art, I always apologize for terrible art and mention that it's AI generated and was outside of my control. If someone wants high quality, they will always ask a person for it. This applies to all creative content, humans will always put out higher quality than computers can. So having the AI generator on this site isn't really detrimental to the artists on this site, because if someone wants high quality, they'll ask a person to do it. Meanwhile, it helps all the countless people who aren't able to create art or get someone else to do their art.

5. For the people saying using AI art removes any creativity from designing cards. Art is a small part. This is Yugioh not an art gallery. Our main products are the cards, their effects, how they interact with each other. Art is only 1 part of the equation. For non-artists, art is 0 part of the equation. I've lost count of all the cards I created, but they're all different, unique, and creative. I spend several hours researching the naming behind archetypes so I can make a name that fits the theme, thinking of different effects that are strong, but also feel fun and fair and fit the theme of the archetype. It's unfair and disingenuous to act like people who use AI art lack creativity and "want the easy way", it's just not true. It's a tool that helps people who can't make art, actually have something presentable instead of just posting text.

That said, YCM mentioned using a different method of generating art. I'm all for it, especially if it's more ethical. However, completely removing AI generator from the site is a bad imo since there are countless people who simply have no other way of making art for their cards, so image generation on the site needs to exist in some capacity.

You do bring up some good points yeah but I still think what these companies are training their AI Art on is not consented to they stole a whole bunch of Art of People and that sucks! >;( I may not like AI Art Generators but at least Adobe doesn't steal Art from the Artists and the images that Adobe Trained their AI on its on their Adobe Stock Websites and how they get images is buy Paying $$$ Actual People to either submit Sample Art or Real Life photos of Trees, Rocks, Water, or anything Nature based like Animals and Forests, Houses, Cards, and People who given Consent to be taken picture of, etc look Adobe may be greedy with Subscriptions fees *cough* *cough* Photoshop being paywalled really hard but I want to give them 2 good points 1 they threat their employees well and with respect, and 2 They Pay the People to use the images they post on Adobe Stockphoto you can make $$$ money of the photos you take and upload to that services and any Art Generated is from the Adobe Stockphoto Website so at least their not thieves and their very ethical when it comes to AI Art. I much prefer for now if People on this site didn't use AI Art and just do them in written formats.

[Horu]

5 hours ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

No Don't Defend spixi he doesn't think about this ethically so his option don't matter that's why I down voted him also I'm sorry if it looks like I'm being Toxic but I'm on Defense of The Artist not your fanstices about AI Art.

I wasn't defending spixi. I was simply pointing out that he has a valid point. He's simply applying an image to the card (regardless of where he gets it). Something everyone on the site has been doing long before the AI generator was even added.

[Jason Williams]

Ai is here to stay.   The courts are not going to shut down all Ai Art Generators    and I do not think the artist that are sueing do have any legal ground  given they miss reperseanted the tech in their filling and claim they knew how it worked when none of them worked with the programs.   That alone will hurt their case.    But more over  Ai Art generators have been around for a lot longer then people want to give it credit   but only recently has it been getting better.     And even if these artist were to win what are they going to do  come after ever user of all of the Ai Generators    the will end up costing them more money in the lawsuits then they would win in the end.   And given US Law currently does not cover Ai Art only the copyright office says it can not be copyrighted   which also raises the question if the art in question can not be copyrighted  can the artist really claim ownership of it as well   With out a change in the Law no they can not.   Sure a Judge might tell every single ai generator they have to re-train all of their models on Public Domain Art work  which will raise a new question given what was already generator can not be opyrighted   that means ever image generator is auto  in the public domain.  

 

And another thing is  something a few of the artist who signed on but are not part of the lawsuit  claim that they own their style   under US Copyright law were the lawsuit was filed  you can not own a style of art.   You can ow what you created   but the style is  not copyrightable.   This  will be also a key element to the lawsuit moving forward. 

 

As an Artist, Author,  and some one who uses Ai Art for the Art works as I only do hand drawing art. I am  not skilled at digitial art.  I am still learning Digital and once I am at the level were I can take the Ai Art  and re-do it to be more original   I plan on it.   The best I can do right now is in Micrsoft Paint and even that is not good.       What I am getting at is  I see all arguments.  Heck I trained a model on Leonardo Ai   on my own Drawing and some of what I did in Micrsoft Paint   and I have to say   it is a lot better the my art is.  

The way I see it is   training a model is no diffirent then how humans  have taught them self for years to do art  we took some one else art and learn from it.     Was that stealing.

i do think there needs to be protocales in place to prevent deep fakes   or straight up copies of  existing images used in the training from being made.

[HQCardmaker]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Downvoted. AI Art is Evil

AI 'Art' is Evil. AI 'Narrowing' is not. AI should be used to narrow down an approach, not outright replace styles with a 'perfect' style. Especially since AI still acts like a 'yes man' infant that gets some art wrong. I think of it like this: If AI was used as a teacher, and could find sources-- real, human sources-- to recommend that could refine someone's work a little better, it could, in theory, help a little bit. Help-- but not replace. It is still up to the artists to contact each other and share, and it is still up to the artists to use as many good references for their work as possible. AI just 'layers' what uses references... as references themselves... and it doesn't even do that good of a job at it. It might one day, but that is far and away.

The most evil thing I've noticed an AI do is in a story where it will declare its interpretation of a character as 'the real character'; the author should dictate where to draw the line in the multiversal sand, and even then, an AI is a fair-weather partner at best-- our weather... not exclusively its own.