Subterror Extra Deck

[KH911]

Since Konami's genius idea of making Subterror Behemoth Fiendess a Link monster, therefore stopping all your Subterror Behemoths from summoning themselves, I took it upon myself to give them extra deck monsters that actually belong in a Subterror deck:
 

Not much to say here. He brings back monsters from the GY, and flips himself face-down to trigger the Subterror Behemoth summoning conditions. He's psychic type because Subterrors don't have that yet and I feel like Psychic is the next best type for a necromancer (right after spellcaster).

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Subterror Necromancer

Earth / Level 12

Psychic / Synchro / Effect

1 tuner + 1 non-tuner

1 Face-down monster you control can be treated as a tuner for this card's synchro summon. The following effects of "Subterror Necromancer" can each be used once per turn:

- FLIP: You can special summon 1 monster from your opponent's GY to your side of the field

- Special summon 1 "Subterror Behemoth" monster from your GY, in face-down defense position, then flip this card face-down.

ATK/3000 DEF/2000

 

Pileasus is a mix of Pilea, which is a genus of cave plants (hence plant-type), and Pegasus. I had to go through A LOT of research to figure out the Subterror naming scheme and finding something that fit the monster types that aren't already used in the archetype. This guy provides target protection and lets one of your Subterrors attack directly. This is meant to represent them riding on a flying horse, and it combos nicely with Final Battle (although maybe too nicely). I love the concept of Deus-X Krawler flipping itself face-up, so I decided to use it here in a more interactive way.

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Subterror Behemoth Pileasus

Earth / Rank 10

Plant / Xyz / Effect

2 "Subterror Behemoth" Monsters

Face-down monsters you control can be treated as level 10 monsters for this card's Xyz summon. The following effects of "Subterror Behemoth Pileasus" can each be used once per turn:

- FLIP: You can detach 1 material from this card and target 1 "Subterror Behemoth" monster you control; that monster can attack directly this turn.

- If a face-down monster you control is targeted by a card effect: You can flip this card face-up; negate that effect, and if you do attach that card to this card as material. 

- You can change this card to face-down Defense Position

ATK/2500 DEF/2500

 

Stegocareno is a mix of Stegosaurus and Calcarenite, which is a type of rock. I just wanted to make a dinosaur Subterror and picked the coolest sounding rock to go with my favourite dinosaur. He provides destruction protection, so combined with Pileasus, it makes so your face-down monsters are only vulnerable to non-target non-destruction removal. His Raigeki-esque effect fills the "boardwide removal" role. Umastryx is target removal and Stygokraken only hits set cards, so I'm hoping this adds something new to the archetype.

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Subterror Behemoth Stegocareno

Earth / Level 6

Dinosaur / Fusion / Effect

2 "Subterror Behemoth" monsters

You can fusion summon this card by sending the above face-up or face-down materials you control to the GY. The following effects of "Subterror Behemoth Stegocareno" can each be used once per turn:

- FLIP: Destroy face-up cards your opponent controls up to the number of "Subterror Behemoth" monsters you control

- If a face-down monster(s) you control would be destroyed by battle or card effect: You can flip this card face-up; that monster(s) is flipped face-up instead of being destroyed

- You can change this card to face-down Defense Position

ATK/2000 DEF/3000

 

 

[Messoras]

Hey there,

I love to see someone sharing the passion for actual Subterrors instead of playing Guru control. I remember building the old version of the deck with Golem Sentry and Swarm Of Locusts back in the day. I agree that the Link Monster absolutely doesn't fit the playstyle, as it prevents your Behemoths from Summoning themselves. I guess that Konami just thought something along the lines of "We need Extra Deck support for a deck with alot of monsters with different levels... Let's make a Link Monster".

I think the most viable version of the "real" Subterror deck uses Prediction Princesses as tool to Summon and trigger the Behemoths, but it doesn't really play the intended playstyle. So I'm excited what you brought to the table.

Subterror Necromancer has a very cool Summoning mechanic. It's the first time I see that and it fits the archetype perfectly. Also even tho the monster is Level 12, and we usually don't do Level 12 Synchros, I think it's the perfect Level for this card as it covers a wide range of possible combinations to make it. Maybe you should limit the materials to Subterror monsters tho, since that prevents unwanted interactions. Regarding the name, I would probably expect it to include a Behemoth like the other ones, but probably you just forgot to add it. If you had a reasoning behind not making it a Behemoth, I'd like to hear that.
For the effects I am unsure of how helpful a monster from the opponent's GY would be for Subterrors. Maybe it would be more useful to enable more ways to flip your opponent's cards face-down, so you could use your Behemoth effects more effectively. Special Summoning a material back from the GY as flip effect is a nice addition and I like that it flips itself face-down afterwards to trigger Behemoths in the hand. Many people have problems designing fitting trigger timings for when effects, but you did it perfectly.

Subterror Behemoth Pileasus might be a little problematic. First of all I think that simply treating any face-down monster as possible material would make the card a bit to generic. Also trying to use the Xyz mechanic in a Deck with only 2 monsters with the same Level seems to miss the point. Furthermore monsters can't usually use their effects while face-down, so the second effect is a bit inconvenient to include in the game. If you ever played with Deck triggers, like Theinen The Great Sphinx or any of the Familiar Possessed cards, you know how weird these cards are to play. Your opponent would call a judge every time you try to activate an effect 90% of the time. Maybe generic negation isn't the way to go here, but rather recovery or protection and buffs for your other cards.
When thinking about it, I think I had a really cool idea for an alternative effect:

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FLIP: Target 1 "Subterror Behemoth" monster you control; that monster can attack directly this turn. Once per turn: You can detach 1 material from this card, then target 1 card your opponent controls; it is attached to this card as material when it leaves the field, also change this card to face-down Defense Position. When this card you control is destroyed by your opponent's card while it has material: You can Special Summon 1 of the materials this card had on the field in face-up or face-down Defense Position, then you can change the Battle Position of 1 monster you control to face-up or face-down Defense Position.

Anyway I can't really find a way to make Xyz Monsters an option in this archetype.

Subterror Behemoth Stegocareno has a very overtuned summoning mechanic. When you thought Megafleet was crazy, this one takes the cake. You literally pay nothing to Summon this, you just go +1. Adding a Fusion material back on Summon is fine, as you usually use a Polymerization + 2 materials to Fusion Summon, but this crazy my guy. The first effect is fine in my opinion, even tho it might be weaker as expected in play, as some of your Behemoths would probably be face-down when using the effect, causing you to destroy less cards. The second effect has the same problem as I pointed out earlier on the Xyz Monster. Face-down cards dont usually get to activate their effects. Maybe something like

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Once per turn: You can target 1 face-down monster you control; when your opponent activates an effect that targets that face-down card until their End Phase, the activated effect becomes "change it to face-up Defense Position", also change this card to face-down Defense Position.

works, but I know that it's not easy to include proper protection for face-down cards while playing along the strategy of having all cards face-down to trigger Behemoth effects. Maybe we actually need another Spell/Trap card instead.

All in all, I really share the urge to make Behemoths playable and I love the idea of the Synchro Monster and its Summoning condition. Probably including more Synchro monsters with the same condition could make an alternative Summoning condition for Xyz or Fusion Monsters obsolete. Keep it up!

 

Greets,

Messoras

[WhiteThunder777]

Guru Control can be very annoying version of Subterror. But another thing is making a generic Subterror card.  Generic means you can put it into ANY deck and it causes trouble.  

 

[KH911]

8 hours ago, Messoras said:

Hey there,

I love to see someone sharing the passion for actual Subterrors instead of playing Guru control. I remember building the old version of the deck with Golem Sentry and Swarm Of Locusts back in the day. I agree that the Link Monster absolutely doesn't fit the playstyle, as it prevents your Behemoths from Summoning themselves. I guess that Konami just thought something along the lines of "We need Extra Deck support for a deck with alot of monsters with different levels... Let's make a Link Monster".

I think the most viable version of the "real" Subterror deck uses Prediction Princesses as tool to Summon and trigger the Behemoths, but it doesn't really play the intended playstyle. So I'm excited what you brought to the table.

Subterror Necromancer has a very cool Summoning mechanic. It's the first time I see that and it fits the archetype perfectly. Also even tho the monster is Level 12, and we usually don't do Level 12 Synchros, I think it's the perfect Level for this card as it covers a wide range of possible combinations to make it. Maybe you should limit the materials to Subterror monsters tho, since that prevents unwanted interactions. Regarding the name, I would probably expect it to include a Behemoth like the other ones, but probably you just forgot to add it. If you had a reasoning behind not making it a Behemoth, I'd like to hear that.
For the effects I am unsure of how helpful a monster from the opponent's GY would be for Subterrors. Maybe it would be more useful to enable more ways to flip your opponent's cards face-down, so you could use your Behemoth effects more effectively. Special Summoning a material back from the GY as flip effect is a nice addition and I like that it flips itself face-down afterwards to trigger Behemoths in the hand. Many people have problems designing fitting trigger timings for when effects, but you did it perfectly.

Subterror Behemoth Pileasus might be a little problematic. First of all I think that simply treating any face-down monster as possible material would make the card a bit to generic. Also trying to use the Xyz mechanic in a Deck with only 2 monsters with the same Level seems to miss the point. Furthermore monsters can't usually use their effects while face-down, so the second effect is a bit inconvenient to include in the game. If you ever played with Deck triggers, like Theinen The Great Sphinx or any of the Familiar Possessed cards, you know how weird these cards are to play. Your opponent would call a judge every time you try to activate an effect 90% of the time. Maybe generic negation isn't the way to go here, but rather recovery or protection and buffs for your other cards.
When thinking about it, I think I had a really cool idea for an alternative effect:

Anyway I can't really find a way to make Xyz Monsters an option in this archetype.

Subterror Behemoth Stegocareno has a very overtuned summoning mechanic. When you thought Megafleet was crazy, this one takes the cake. You literally pay nothing to Summon this, you just go +1. Adding a Fusion material back on Summon is fine, as you usually use a Polymerization + 2 materials to Fusion Summon, but this crazy my guy. The first effect is fine in my opinion, even tho it might be weaker as expected in play, as some of your Behemoths would probably be face-down when using the effect, causing you to destroy less cards. The second effect has the same problem as I pointed out earlier on the Xyz Monster. Face-down cards dont usually get to activate their effects. Maybe something like

works, but I know that it's not easy to include proper protection for face-down cards while playing along the strategy of having all cards face-down to trigger Behemoth effects. Maybe we actually need another Spell/Trap card instead.

All in all, I really share the urge to make Behemoths playable and I love the idea of the Synchro Monster and its Summoning condition. Probably including more Synchro monsters with the same condition could make an alternative Summoning condition for Xyz or Fusion Monsters obsolete. Keep it up!

 

Greets,

Messoras

As usual I appreciate the in-depth analysis of these cards. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this card, but Deus-X Krawler responds to an effect that targets it by flipping itself face-up, then negating that effect and all other monster effects on the field. As far as I know, this hasn't caused any ruling issues, since it says on the card text that it can flip itself face-up in response to things. I can't really see the opponent arguing against it. So I designed Pileasus and Stegocareno with that in mind. On another note, you didn't comment on Pileasus ability to let a Subterror Behemoth attack directly, do you think it's a bit too strong considering they can swing for 4k+ damage with Final Battle?

I wanted to make 1 Synchro, 1 Xyz, and 1 Fusion so that they use different extra deck types (in-line with how they use different monster types). I think treating face-down monsters as material is fine, but I might have to add a restriction so it's not too generic. I still want to keep the protection effects because that's what Subterror struggles against the most. All Subterror Behemoths have powerful effects, but the problem is they get removed before they flip. As for Stegocareno, I guess returning them to the hand was a bit much, I can instead make it send the materials to GY.

I thought about making Necromancer a Behemoth, but lore-wise it makes more sense for the Necromancer to be with Nemesis group, reviving the dead Behemoths to help fight against the other Behemoths.

Another thing I considered, but this is a master rule revision, is that Link monsters can be placed in defense position but their DEF is treated as 0.

PS. I edited the monster effects in green if you wanted to take a look at the changes

[Messoras]

10 hours ago, KH911 said:

As usual I appreciate the in-depth analysis of these cards. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this card, but Deus-X Krawler responds to an effect that targets it by flipping itself face-up, then negating that effect and all other monster effects on the field. As far as I know, this hasn't caused any ruling issues, since it says on the card text that it can flip itself face-up in response to things. I can't really see the opponent arguing against it. So I designed Pileasus and Stegocareno with that in mind. On another note, you didn't comment on Pileasus ability to let a Subterror Behemoth attack directly, do you think it's a bit too strong considering they can swing for 4k+ damage with Final Battle?

I wanted to make 1 Synchro, 1 Xyz, and 1 Fusion so that they use different extra deck types (in-line with how they use different monster types). I think treating face-down monsters as material is fine, but I might have to add a restriction so it's not too generic. I still want to keep the protection effects because that's what Subterror struggles against the most. All Subterror Behemoths have powerful effects, but the problem is they get removed before they flip. As for Stegocareno, I guess returning them to the hand was a bit much, I can instead make it send the materials to GY.

I thought about making Necromancer a Behemoth, but lore-wise it makes more sense for the Necromancer to be with Nemesis group, reviving the dead Behemoths to help fight against the other Behemoths.

Another thing I considered, but this is a master rule revision, is that Link monsters can be placed in defense position but their DEF is treated as 0.

PS. I edited the monster effects in green if you wanted to take a look at the changes

Thanks for clarifying. I actually didn't know that Deus-X can trigger an effect while being face-down. That's actually kind of an interesting mechanic and thinking about it, it actually doesn't really conflict with any of the gamerules and pretty much plays like a trap card. From a programmer's (or card scripter's) perspective I just immediately thought to myself: "Wait a minute, how are you triggering a face-down monster". Recapitulating the cards with this in mind, I think the effects are actually very helpful for the deck, especially the Fusion monster's effect to flip a card face-up instead of being destroyed, which is kind of situational but generates a ton of advantage and punishes your opponent if used correctly. You have to keep in mind that flipping the monsters face-up also means that their flip effects trigger tho. There still is a problem with the effect of Stegocareno. It aims to protect face-down monsters from battle, but face-down monsters will never be marked to be destroyed by battle, as they will always flip face-up before damage calculation, so this effect would never be able to activate.

I still believe that while it's cool that you try to incorporate all types of Extra Deck monsters into the deck, only the Synchro Monster has a really good Summoning Condition. When thinking of a good way to modulate Levels for a Xyz Summon, all that came to my mind was adding the Levels of face-up monsters and subtracting the Levels of face-down monsters, but that's pretty much a Synchro Summon (e.g. Ursarctics). Maybe you can find a way to make it reasonable, but just treating face-down monsters as Level 10 doesn't really call out "Xyz" to me. The Contact Fusion is alright, but nothing special. Maybe you should make the the Fusion Summoning Condition exclusive, so nobody tries to play Polymerization cards with the deck. That would mean stating "Must first be Special Summoned (from the Extra Deck) by sending the above cards you control to the GY." That would also include disabling the revive limit for the card so you can revive it from your GY after it has been sent there.

Now that you mentioned the direct attack issue with Final Battle, I agree that it might be to strong to enable a 5000 ATK direct attack with just 2 cards. I understand that you designed all of the Extra Deck monsters to sum up to 5000 ATK when affected by Final Battle, but maybe you should atleast reduce it to slightly below 4000, so that you can't just walk through any defense in 2 turns. If the combined value of ATK and DEF equals about 3900, that would probably fine. Another alternative without nerfing the battle power of your boss monsters to hard, you could replace the direct attack with piercing battle damage.

Overall I would rate the powerlevel of the cards medium and their utility for the archetype very good. That's exactly where you want support cards to be, so great job on that!

 

Greets,

Messoras

[KH911]

2 hours ago, Messoras said:

Thanks for clarifying. I actually didn't know that Deus-X can trigger an effect while being face-down. That's actually kind of an interesting mechanic and thinking about it, it actually doesn't really conflict with any of the gamerules and pretty much plays like a trap card. From a programmer's (or card scripter's) perspective I just immediately thought to myself: "Wait a minute, how are you triggering a face-down monster". Recapitulating the cards with this in mind, I think the effects are actually very helpful for the deck, especially the Fusion monster's effect to flip a card face-up instead of being destroyed, which is kind of situational but generates a ton of advantage and punishes your opponent if used correctly. You have to keep in mind that flipping the monsters face-up also means that their flip effects trigger tho. There still is a problem with the effect of Stegocareno. It aims to protect face-down monsters from battle, but face-down monsters will never be marked to be destroyed by battle, as they will always flip face-up before damage calculation, so this effect would never be able to activate.

I still believe that while it's cool that you try to incorporate all types of Extra Deck monsters into the deck, only the Synchro Monster has a really good Summoning Condition. When thinking of a good way to modulate Levels for a Xyz Summon, all that came to my mind was adding the Levels of face-up monsters and subtracting the Levels of face-down monsters, but that's pretty much a Synchro Summon (e.g. Ursarctics). Maybe you can find a way to make it reasonable, but just treating face-down monsters as Level 10 doesn't really call out "Xyz" to me. The Contact Fusion is alright, but nothing special. Maybe you should make the the Fusion Summoning Condition exclusive, so nobody tries to play Polymerization cards with the deck. That would mean stating "Must first be Special Summoned (from the Extra Deck) by sending the above cards you control to the GY." That would also include disabling the revive limit for the card so you can revive it from your GY after it has been sent there.

Now that you mentioned the direct attack issue with Final Battle, I agree that it might be to strong to enable a 5000 ATK direct attack with just 2 cards. I understand that you designed all of the Extra Deck monsters to sum up to 5000 ATK when affected by Final Battle, but maybe you should atleast reduce it to slightly below 4000, so that you can't just walk through any defense in 2 turns. If the combined value of ATK and DEF equals about 3900, that would probably fine. Another alternative without nerfing the battle power of your boss monsters to hard, you could replace the direct attack with piercing battle damage.

Overall I would rate the powerlevel of the cards medium and their utility for the archetype very good. That's exactly where you want support cards to be, so great job on that!

 

Greets,

Messoras

I understand your points on the Summoning mechanics, but this is something I'm not willing to budge on.

For Stegocareno he's mainly supposed to protect from card effects, but I guess now that you mention I can remove the battle protection since it does nothing. Also the purpose of it flipping your monster face-up is to activate the flip effects and punish the opponent for trying to destroy your monster.

I still want the direct attack effect on Pileasus, but what I can do is make it so that the opponent takes half damage from that attack, which is in-line with most of the other effects that enable direct attacks.

[KH911]

7 hours ago, spixi said:

The monsters with FLIP effects need the Flip subtype (which also adds synergy with other Subterror, World Legacy, Krawler and Prediction Princess cards) or replace “FLIP” with “When this card is flipped face-up”. 

In all honesty, I forgot FLIP was a subtype, I thought I just have to put "FLIP:" in the effect. Thanks for bringing that up.