Question on ethical writing

[cr47t]

t's been a very long time since I've come to NCM/YCM for advice, but I think this merits it. It's not so much about storytelling craft so much as an ethical concern of mine, and over the years I've come to trust the veteran members of YCM for this kind of thing (based on last time I asked for advice.)

SHORT VERSION: I'm wondering about inspiration and borrowing of specifics in structural material from other works - is that plagiarism, or otherwise unacceptably derivative for a genre work?

LONG VERSION:
I have a concept in my head of two factions in opposition, with a character or two each to represent, and two (or more?) characters outside those factions (the protagonist and a third "antagonist"/team; both come from afar.) I like the way the setup does not judge between, nor caricaturizes, the two 'factions' (a industrial settlement and the natural world around it) and the way it comments on some topics of importance to me (environmentalism, war and overcoming differences, etc.) One problem: these things have already been done by another work I admire, which is where I got the idea for the character dynamics. (This work is not written-word, mine is.)

I intend to make use of a different kind of setting for my work, without much forestry: something that feels more 'otherworldly' but still recognizable/imaginable as a place on Earth. (What it will be, I'm not sure; I was considering Icelandic features, but I haven't decided yet.) I also intend to make the characters themselves different from their counterparts in the other work, but I have trouble seeing how the relations between them can be different without upsetting the balance.

Consulting a loved one on the issue, they noted that while West Side Story borrowed from Romeo & Juliet character dynamics and some commentary throughlines, it also lifted plot too, and yet it's been accepted as a legitimate work. This does not put me at ease, especially since I'm in general having trouble bringing my own structure-level spin to the combination of this character/faction setup, the way that setup intertwines with commentary, and the commentary itself. (Also R&J has had many pastiches and revisits in other works that are accepted as legitimate: for my source text, I can't think of any other example of media that does what it does.)I do intend to make a plot that is not resembelant of the other work, just don't know what it is yet.

Although I believe in what the original work had to say and I want to send that understanding further, I am worried about the ethics of my situation, which brings me to my question:

Is this plagiarism, or copying in spirit, or otherwise an unacceptable level of derivative for genre(-esque) fiction? If so, what can I do to make it fresher, more of me and less of a correlation - or do I have to basically start over? If I'm 'in the clear' or in a 'grey area', how so?

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

1 hour ago, cr47t said:

It's been a very long time since I've come to NCM/YCM for advice, but I think this merits it. It's not so much about storytelling craft so much as an ethical concern of mine, and over the years I've come to trust the veteran members of YCM for this kind of thing (based on last time I asked for advice.)

SHORT VERSION: I'm wondering about inspiration and borrowing of specifics in structural material from other works - is that plagiarism, or otherwise unacceptably derivative for a genre work?

LONG VERSION:
I have a concept in my head of two factions in opposition, with a character or two each to represent, and two (or more?) characters outside those factions (the protagonist and a third "antagonist"/team; both come from afar.) I like the way the setup does not judge between, nor caricaturizes, the two 'factions' (a industrial settlement and the natural world around it) and the way it comments on some topics of importance to me (environmentalism, war and overcoming differences, etc.) One problem: these things have already been done by another work I admire, which is where I got the idea for the character dynamics. (This work is not written-word, mine is.)

I intend to make use of a different kind of setting for my work, without much forestry: something that feels more 'otherworldly' but still recognizable/imaginable as a place on Earth. (What it will be, I'm not sure; I was considering Icelandic features, but I haven't decided yet.) I also intend to make the characters themselves different from their counterparts in the other work, but I have trouble seeing how the relations between them can be different without upsetting the balance.

Consulting a loved one on the issue, they noted that while West Side Story borrowed from Romeo & Juliet character dynamics and some commentary throughlines, it also lifted plot too, and yet it's been accepted as a legitimate work. This does not put me at ease, especially since I'm in general having trouble bringing my own structure-level spin to the combination of this character/faction setup, the way that setup intertwines with commentary, and the commentary itself. (Also R&J has had many pastiches and revisits in other works that are accepted as legitimate: for my source text, I can't think of any other example of media that does what it does.)I do intend to make a plot that is not resembelant of the other work, just don't know what it is yet.

Although I believe in what the original work had to say and I want to send that understanding further, I am worried about the ethics of my situation, which brings me to my question:

Is this plagiarism, or copying in spirit, or otherwise an unacceptable level of derivative for genre(-esque) fiction? If so, what can I do to make it fresher, more of me and less of a correlation - or do I have to basically start over? If I'm 'in the clear' or in a 'grey area', how so?

It's great that you are considering the ethical implications of your work and seeking guidance on this matter. The issue of inspiration and borrowing from other works is a complex one, and it's important to approach it with care and respect for other creators' work.

First of all, it's important to understand that there is a difference between inspiration and plagiarism. Inspiration is when you take an idea or concept from another work and use it as a starting point to create something new and original. Plagiarism, on the other hand, is when you take someone else's work and pass it off as your own without proper attribution or permission.

From what you've described, it sounds like you are taking inspiration from another work rather than plagiarizing it. You are not copying the work verbatim, but rather using it as a reference point to create your own unique story with your own characters and setting. This is a common practice in creative fields, and as long as you are not infringing on the original creator's rights, there is nothing unethical about it.

That being said, it's important to make sure that you are not simply copying the other work's structure or characters without adding anything new or original. It's okay to take inspiration from other works, but it's important to put your own spin on things and create something that is uniquely your own.

One way to do this is to focus on what sets your story apart from the other work. You mentioned that you are planning on using a different setting and characters, which is a great start. Think about what themes or messages you want to convey in your story and how you can do so in a way that is different from the other work.

Another way to make your story more original is to draw inspiration from multiple sources rather than just one. You might find that by combining elements from different works, you are able to create something that is truly unique and fresh.

Ultimately, it's up to you to decide how much inspiration you want to draw from the other work and how much you want to make your own. As long as you are being respectful of the original creator's work and creating something that is uniquely your own, you should be in a good ethical position.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan

[cr47t]

46 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Long post

since this appears to be a ChatGPT generated reply (unsuual grammar and demeanor opposed to Zama's prev. posts here) i will not take it into consideration: for assuming it really is AI generated, it most likely does not reflect either the poster's (Zamazenta's) own expression or the writing community consensus on issues such as these. in facr aggregating words based on other people's writing without creative with an algorithm then passing it off as your own is something i'd call unethical writing, assuming the AI user is aware of how these algorithms plunders existing human writing, which i don't think Zama does.

if there are any others here who wish to give input, please do so with your own words, whether the response positive or negative, and regardless of how it's written or worded. that's all I ask and I do not think it is very much to ask of YCM. i will not say any more on that topic here as it is not the main point of the original thread and i do not want to derail it

Edited March 22, 2023 by cr47t
added last sentence

[Horu]

Drawing inspiration from other works isn't unethical. A lot of good writers (and not so good writers) pull inspiration from one thing or another. Writing in itself is an artform that can quite literally be inspired by just about anything. To consider referencing your inspiration unethical would quite literally mean every artist today is unethical. How many people have written/drawn something inspired by Dragon Ball, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, Batman, etc? Would you consider their work unethical? If not, then objectively, you should view your own work the same way.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

2 hours ago, cr47t said:

since this appears to be a ChatGPT generated reply (unsuual grammar and demeanor opposed to Zama's prev. posts here) i will not take it into consideration: for assuming it really is AI generated, it most likely does not reflect either the poster's (Zamazenta's) own expression or the writing community consensus on issues such as these. in facr aggregating words based on other people's writing without creative with an algorithm then passing it off as your own is something i'd call unethical writing, assuming the AI user is aware of how these algorithms plunders existing human writing, which i don't think Zama does.

if there are any others here who wish to give input, please do so with your own words, whether the response positive or negative, and regardless of how it's written or worded. that's all I ask and I do not think it is very much to ask of YCM. i will not say any more on that topic here as it is not the main point of the original thread and i do not want to derail it

Yeah it is ChatGPT my Grammar isn't very good cause I would miss up alot in the past I know that we are all against the AI overlords and I messed up I'm sorry for using ChatGPT but I think its a tool that can be used for good?

I have some but not alot I have not good grammer.

[Lone mouse]

For what its worth I agree with horu. IDK if this applies but think about it like a trope like TCG there are many TCGs and they all have difference but are all still trading cards.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Lone mouse

[Kokoroshi]

14 hours ago, cr47t said:

t's been a very long time since I've come to NCM/YCM for advice, but I think this merits it. It's not so much about storytelling craft so much as an ethical concern of mine, and over the years I've come to trust the veteran members of YCM for this kind of thing (based on last time I asked for advice.)

SHORT VERSION: I'm wondering about inspiration and borrowing of specifics in structural material from other works - is that plagiarism, or otherwise unacceptably derivative for a genre work?

LONG VERSION:
I have a concept in my head of two factions in opposition, with a character or two each to represent, and two (or more?) characters outside those factions (the protagonist and a third "antagonist"/team; both come from afar.) I like the way the setup does not judge between, nor caricaturizes, the two 'factions' (a industrial settlement and the natural world around it) and the way it comments on some topics of importance to me (environmentalism, war and overcoming differences, etc.) One problem: these things have already been done by another work I admire, which is where I got the idea for the character dynamics. (This work is not written-word, mine is.)

I intend to make use of a different kind of setting for my work, without much forestry: something that feels more 'otherworldly' but still recognizable/imaginable as a place on Earth. (What it will be, I'm not sure; I was considering Icelandic features, but I haven't decided yet.) I also intend to make the characters themselves different from their counterparts in the other work, but I have trouble seeing how the relations between them can be different without upsetting the balance.

Consulting a loved one on the issue, they noted that while West Side Story borrowed from Romeo & Juliet character dynamics and some commentary throughlines, it also lifted plot too, and yet it's been accepted as a legitimate work. This does not put me at ease, especially since I'm in general having trouble bringing my own structure-level spin to the combination of this character/faction setup, the way that setup intertwines with commentary, and the commentary itself. (Also R&J has had many pastiches and revisits in other works that are accepted as legitimate: for my source text, I can't think of any other example of media that does what it does.)I do intend to make a plot that is not resembelant of the other work, just don't know what it is yet.

Although I believe in what the original work had to say and I want to send that understanding further, I am worried about the ethics of my situation, which brings me to my question:

Is this plagiarism, or copying in spirit, or otherwise an unacceptable level of derivative for genre(-esque) fiction? If so, what can I do to make it fresher, more of me and less of a correlation - or do I have to basically start over? If I'm 'in the clear' or in a 'grey area', how so?

In my opinion, drawing inspiration from other works, or even straight up borrowing aspects of another work isn’t a bad thing. I, for example, Masashi Kishimoto, the writer and creator of Naruto, took heavy inspiration from Akira Toriyama’s Dragon Ball in it’s creation, but with a spin on the ideas and characters to make its feel fresh and new. As long as it’s not blatant coping like reusing the same characters, or exact events, then it’s not necessarily plagiarism, after all, many of the most popular modern day TV, movies, and books take some kind of inspiration from other sources. With your example, West Side Story does indeed borrow from Romeo & Juliet, however, it’s done in a way different enough from the source material that it becomes it’s own thing. As long as what you’re writing has it’s your own unique flair to it, it will be original, so no, it’s not plagiarism, it’s inspiration!

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Yeah again I'm sorry for using ChatGPT :(

[Horu]

8 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

Yeah again I'm sorry for using ChatGPT :(

Technically, using something like ChatGPT isn't entirely unethical either is used properly.

[Jordan Ashwood]

On 3/21/2023 at 6:35 PM, cr47t said:

t's been a very long time since I've come to NCM/YCM for advice, but I think this merits it. It's not so much about storytelling craft so much as an ethical concern of mine, and over the years I've come to trust the veteran members of YCM for this kind of thing (based on last time I asked for advice.)

SHORT VERSION: I'm wondering about inspiration and borrowing of specifics in structural material from other works - is that plagiarism, or otherwise unacceptably derivative for a genre work?

LONG VERSION:
I have a concept in my head of two factions in opposition, with a character or two each to represent, and two (or more?) characters outside those factions (the protagonist and a third "antagonist"/team; both come from afar.) I like the way the setup does not judge between, nor caricaturizes, the two 'factions' (a industrial settlement and the natural world around it) and the way it comments on some topics of importance to me (environmentalism, war and overcoming differences, etc.) One problem: these things have already been done by another work I admire, which is where I got the idea for the character dynamics. (This work is not written-word, mine is.)

I intend to make use of a different kind of setting for my work, without much forestry: something that feels more 'otherworldly' but still recognizable/imaginable as a place on Earth. (What it will be, I'm not sure; I was considering Icelandic features, but I haven't decided yet.) I also intend to make the characters themselves different from their counterparts in the other work, but I have trouble seeing how the relations between them can be different without upsetting the balance.

Consulting a loved one on the issue, they noted that while West Side Story borrowed from Romeo & Juliet character dynamics and some commentary throughlines, it also lifted plot too, and yet it's been accepted as a legitimate work. This does not put me at ease, especially since I'm in general having trouble bringing my own structure-level spin to the combination of this character/faction setup, the way that setup intertwines with commentary, and the commentary itself. (Also R&J has had many pastiches and revisits in other works that are accepted as legitimate: for my source text, I can't think of any other example of media that does what it does.)I do intend to make a plot that is not resembelant of the other work, just don't know what it is yet.

Although I believe in what the original work had to say and I want to send that understanding further, I am worried about the ethics of my situation, which brings me to my question:

Is this plagiarism, or copying in spirit, or otherwise an unacceptable level of derivative for genre(-esque) fiction? If so, what can I do to make it fresher, more of me and less of a correlation - or do I have to basically start over? If I'm 'in the clear' or in a 'grey area', how so?

I know this is a very old post, but it's definitely worth considering. As far as I understand, writers worry extra-hard about "is this unique? Is this plagiarized?" whereas readers and even publishers are less likely to care. In fact, many publishers/literary agents even ask for comparable titles. They WANT your work to look like others. (Not that this is a good thing, and the publishing industry is terrible in every conceivable way, but it should give you some peace!)

[druid44]

Using inspiration from another work is fine, but it's important to put your unique twist on it. Change the setting, characters, and plot elements to make it your own. As long as your voice shines through, it's not plagiarism, and you're good to go!

[Simping For Hina]

4 hours ago, druid44 said:

Using inspiration from another work is fine, but it's important to put your unique twist on it. Change the setting, characters, and plot elements to make it your own. As long as your voice shines through, it's not plagiarism, and you're good to go!

This is just incredibly wrong, though.

Music is full of people changing something, adding their own unique twist. (Example: https://ncjolt.org/blogs/olivia-rodrigos-music-copy. right-controversy/)

T.S. Eliot wrote an essay titled "Tradition and Individual Talent", where he succinctly addressed the problem of writing through inspiration. For him, Tradition was the collective installment of writing throughout both the historical past was a part of the contemporary future — a fusion between these tasks. The talent that held their own within this mix is a gesture toward the amalgamation of writing up to the point that the pen touches the page, to write. To even consider writing as a sense of ethical as a point to writing your own story is a load of bullshit, since there is nothing ethical about writing, it is either with ethics in mind or without it. Plagiarism relies on a body to sustain what is and what is not, and this might be a legal body or a public body.

Legal bodies pay attribute to the authors, vis-a-vis credits. This is easily done with, especially places like FanFiction or Ao3, to where credits are mentioned, but also have "Writer's Note" (or similar features included) to pay respects to the authors which they take from. This should be the only eligibility when considering ethics, the matter of respect that is paid. Credit where you get ideas from, if there is concern, but the dumb advice of "unique twist" is a load of hobwash than anything else, and that is more along the lines of "original idea". I don't want to write too much about this.

The matter of ethical is: Your ideas are always stolen, and they should be acknowledge that they are not original or unique. Pay respect to those where these ideas come from, include the idea if necessary. There is no ethical writing, nor will there ever be. Pay tribute, pay respects, pay homage, give credits. This is the one thing where "Footnotes" and "Citations" should come in hand; while it is not ethical, because writing itself is nothing ethical, it does enough to provide a point to know where things have come from. If your ideas are directly related to something else, put that information somewhere in your own story. If they are not taken from anything directly, they are "inspired by" or "adapted from", you can acknowledge this, but you don't need to do so. But your ideas are not original, nor will they ever be. This is Harold Bloom's idea of Influence of Anxiety, that to know our ideas are not original; we should be anxious in knowing that they are not, we should feel reprieve to doing so.

To write as yourself is to put this forward, the individual talent against tradition is simply writing. All of the tradition and influence from it come into part when the ink stains the page, when the letters hit the board.

This is the see for ChatGPT, except that there is no voice behind the mix; It cannot be held to the same standard as an individual. It is Tradition placed through a machine; there is nothing (read "agency") behind it. It mimics language and is programmed to do so, so that is a matter related to regulation instead of ethics.

Replying to some comments here, too.

Zama: "Plagiarism, on the other hand, is when you take someone else's work and pass it off as your own without proper attribution or permission".

You got there, halfway. If, in college or university, you submitted a piece that you originally wrote for another class for a different class, it would still be plagiarism. Plagiarism is doesn't need to have permission or attribution. If I take the phrase "Not all who wander are lost", it is probably not held to the same standards of plagiarism that an entire story is; there is clearly inspiration, but I also do not need to credit Tolkien for that line in an common story. I would get little flack for it, as well. It is still someone else's words.

Horu: "Technically, using something like ChatGPT isn't entirely unethical either is used properly."

Tell me exactly, in every instance, how to use ChatGPT properly. If you can, then I will take this as sage advice. However, because it is a tool, to use the tool is to use the tool correctly. Just by opening up ChatGPT is to use it properly. Now, if you want to have the thoughts are your own, then you fail in the attempt that you wrote what ChatGPT has displayed. If you take ideas from ChatGPT, the same this is mentioned before, and I will provide a sufficient example. Tell your audience you used ChatGPT, they might not like out, oh well, but ideas taken from this are ideas taken from a source and should hold proper respect to. The example here is from MLA citations.

The one thing that no one has ever said: If you think that your writing feels like a rip off, feels like you are stealing it and plagiarizing it, even you are not directly doing so, then mention that SOMEWHERE in your writing. Books often do this in the acknowledgements/copyright pages, songs will have this in the credits somewhere. Even Shakespeare left notes where to find where some of his inspiration came from. Include the information, the concerns, in your writing. If you have these concerns, and they are considerably warranted, and you do not include them, then your writing breaches on the unethical because you are are not writing.

[Yui]

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