Long-term future of modern YGO

[cr47t]

it could just be me, but i get the feeling that increasing power creep so steadily and so much is going to make it harder for modern/mainline ygo to grow or to maintain its market as more players move on to more balanced card games (mtg, pokemon, or more niche TCGs.) last time it was comparably bad IMO was with whatever you call the format with perfoma-pal/-ge, where they actually stepped in with an emergency banlist. nowadays with konami taking their time to move the new years banlist to us guys here in north america, it feels kind of like they're hanging us to dry (more so when you consider how maxx c at3, etc. over there affects how cards are designed around them, which trickles down to us.)

another factor i think is going to make it harder for YGO to attract new players (besides sweats) to replace outgoing veterans is how complicated konami makes everything just to sustain the power creep escalation. even as a veteran player myself i probably couldn't recite a single entire tear card's effects to you, how is a newbie going to last if their locals are competitive? you have to make room for all these different rules and conditions added over the years (just look at how many extra deck strats there are) just to know how to play, memorize the opposing deck strats just to play against them, know their weak spots to stop combos at the right time, to build your side deck, etc, and that's assuming you got both the dollars to spare and the will to put it in, and even then it could get upended in <3 months time when new meta or new banlist comes in. in the meantime if you come across a deck that you can't counter, or has its own counter you can't get around, whoop de fucking do.

compare all this to something like chess where yes, there's a lot to remember if you wanna go far, but you can depend on more of it more of the time as you always get the same starting situation every game (more or less) so it's skill against skill alone. or even compare it to the other games i mentioned, where the effects are kept relatively simple (or at least, not walls of text) and there are resource systems (pokemon's energy cards, mtg's mana system, etc.) to keep power creep in check.

maybe it's just that i'm asking myself why i've been playing along with this problem for so many years, as i begin planning to pivot to other hobbies, but why do we play ygo? (i know some of the veteran forum members here don't, but im gonna go ahead anyway.) for some it's nostalgia, which i would get more of if i was hanging out with my former ygo buddies than by playing against more modern crowds. for some it's strategy, but in that case it's so luck based and one-sided you might as well play solitare (i know this is a common joke but roll w/ me for now) or some other oneplayer game that you'd probably get more fulfillment out of. for some it's habit which, i get it, change is hard to do on your own when it regards throwing out a 5+ yr constant. in the end though i don't see how its gonna be worth it at all, now or in the future.

please share your thoughts on the subject here, would really like to hear what the consensus is here

[Tinkerer]

I almost exclusively play irl at this point.  I sometimes playtest on simulators, but I use edopro to play Rush Duels more often than the OG game.  I don't play Master Duel and I rarely play Duel Links nowadays.

I, personally, have had more fun playing yugioh now (in the last couple years) than I have at most points previously in my life.  Why?  Because my aim in playing is to have fun.  If things are boring or oppressive, figure out a new way to play: whether that be playing a different format, or creating a custom cube.  The locals I'm at has its sweaty peeps, but it also has people who just want to chill and have a good time or play jank decks.  Without others willing to have fun in the game we all enjoy, I'm sure I wouldn't like the game nearly as much.

That being said, if you hinge all your enjoyment on winning, then yes all the stuff you said seems like it would apply.  Keeping up with the best decks and spending exorbitant amounts of time learning/playtesting matchups just seems like a recipe for burnout imo.

 

In other news, I do believe we are due for a bit of a stagnation.  I don't want to make a prediction on it, but the POTE era forward has been particularly nasty in terms of power creep.  There is no new Master Rule, so they won't artificially increase complexity instead of power creep, but I think they are aware they can't keep the acceleration this high.  CYAC doesn't seem to have had any notable impact yet.  We'll have to see what the next main booster brings.

 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Its Power Creep I just want a new master rule where the ED go from 15 to either 20, 25, or 30 cards in the ED and we have a new SM for the ED like a Red card that goes in the ED and we have a thing OPD where we can Muglien at the start of the turn player's DP.

[J-Max]

My biggest problem with modern YGO is how it feels like playing Solitaire especially on the first turn. I was thinking maybe a move limit per turn. Think say only being able to activate Spell and Traps and summoning takes up the count. At least when Maxx C was legal, you could slow down your opponent. Also i'm allienated by Link Summoning XD

[kyop]

I still play to some extent nowadays. I don't dislike newer archetypes, but I'm 99% casual so even if I'm building a deck that spams a lot of summons, I don't wanna end on an unbreakable board (my friends are highly casual too, so there's that). I can't find the fun on preventing your opponent from doing anything & ending the game on the first/second turn xD

I've talked about this with some friends (and I think it's an unpopular opinion too), but I think the game deserves a reboot. Now, I'm not talking about reseting the game to the "set 1 monster set 2 spell/trap pass" speed, since I'm sure that would probably drive a portion of the players away, but something along the lines of late zexal/early arc-v would work (and I know that, for that era, we had some broken stuff, but that's not the point here xD). I don't want the meta to become old school playground yugioh level, I just don't want to get crushed if I brick my hand & don't wanna wait my oponnet's combo for 5 minutes straight.

I think that adding a resource system would change the whole dynamic of the game, so I'm not too fond of it. Also, I agree that not having a wall of text for every card would be cool :p

 

 

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

Yeah thats how the game is Konami is a for Profit Company just like Google and Microsoft they add things that ppl will like even things that speed things up *cough* Konami Speeds up the game for more money. Unlike Mozilla which is a non profit Company.

Also I don;t care what you say guy >:( Maxx "C" is a stupidly and badly designed card its not EVEN HEATLY even 3 Pot Of Greeds don;t do what Shitty Maxx "C" does it should stay banned forever I would rather deal with Mystic Mine if that is the Case and plus Mystic Mine looks Way fing healty Maxx C is not an bright Idea I hate it with a passion and it will stay banned I don't care if you want Maxx C back F that card I would rather then uban Mystic Mine Why do so many PEOPLE WANT MAXX "C" back that is an Ass**** card so if I sound like I'm being Toxic NO MAXX "C" ALLOWED IN THE GAME we are not the OCG I prefer Mystic Mine

[PotAndGreed]

The game is slowly getting better. Tear feels oppressive because it's significantly better than the decks that came before it, but it had to be that much better or it wouldn't have been relevant. The deck has very little in the way of literal negations, and instead requires a lot of resource management and soft interruptions to deal with the opponent. As decks similar to tear's powerful level come out which follow the same paradigm, the game will feel healthier (but much more complicated) over the next few years.

[KH911]

Yugioh was my childhood. It's still my favourite card game to this day, but despite the fact that I've been playing Yugioh since 2002, the game is starting to become unbearable. Konami only cares about the competitive side, and all of their business/design decisions push away new, returning, casual, and collectors. In pretty much every game out there, the competitive players only make up about 10% of the community, Konami in their greed, has alienated 90% of the player base. This is not just bad for the health of the game, it's a terrible business decision (imagine how much more money they could get). But this is not just a post where I complain, so let's move on to my suggestions.

 

The problem isn't the amount of times people can special summon, or how many summoning mechanics there are, or even power creep. There's 3 main problems:

1. Over the past few years, cards have been getting increasingly more generic. 

2. Lack of a resource system.

3. Unnecessarily ambiguous and convoluted rules that serve no purpose but make the game more confusing, in addition to overloaded monster effects and essays of text of each card.

 

Let's start with the biggest problem. Accesscode, Apollousa, Borreload, Knightmares, Avramax, AA ZEUS, Baronne de fleur. This is the end goal of EVERY SINGLE DECK. These cards are fully generic so every deck has access to them. Some say it makes the game balanced, and I'll agree that it does, but it also makes every duel feel the exact same as the one before. Every deck brings out the same monsters, with the goal of negating everything, making every deck feel the same. This is boring, nobody likes this and it's a lazy approach to balance. Make it so archetypal bosses are archetype locked. You can only summon Accesscode using code talkers, you can only summon Avramax using Mekk-Knights, you can only summon Baronne de fleur using fleur synchron (or chevalier de fleur), you can only summon Borreload using Borrel/Rokket. After that, any cards that don't belong to an archetype will be type-locked or attribute-locked depending on power level. So Knightmares require fiends, Apollousa require Fairies, AA ZEUS require machine xyz. The only cards that should be fully generic, are the weak ones that can give your deck a slight boost, but don't result in an unbreakable board. Of course, errata'ing these cards isn't enough on it's own, Konami would have to uphold this philosophy with future designs as well.

 

Next, I believe Yugioh doesn't actually need a new resource system like mana or land. We already have an existing resource system that was utilized in the past: Life Points. Make monster effects cost a significant amount of life points. Battle effects would be free (battle archetypes desperate need the help), effects that search or draw would be 600 lp, effects that special summon, destroy, banish, or negate would be 1200 lp. Maybe the numbers need adjustment, but think about it. If your deck searched 6 times in 1 turn, that's -3600 lp, if you special summon 3 times, that's another -3600 lp, holy shit you're now at 800 lp. People will actually think about activating effects, because if they don't, they risk getting burned for game, or even just being unable to activate any more effects since they can't pay the lp cost. It would make burn cards more prevalent, and by extension anti-burn cards as well as lp gaining effects would be more prevalent. This would also increase the variety of cards people run in their decks, further reducing consistency and making it more enjoyable (I hope).

 

Finally, this is mostly a logistic change but it goes a long way in attracting new, returning, and casual players. Remove the bullshit ambiguous rules like missing timing, the 5000 steps of doing battle, and maybe some others I'm forgetting. As far as I can tell, players don't even uphold missing timing because it's dumb, it's only applied in high level tournament or if someone is rule-sharking. This is the shit that makes the game more complicated. People don't quit because there's 5 summoning mechanics, they quit because their monster said "When sent to the gy, do x" but then they lost the game cuz of missed timing. They lost the game cuz they try to use an effect in the damage step and they weren't allowed because only Konami knows why that rule exists in the first place. These rules are not fun, they're not intuitive, they're not necessary, and should not exist.

This complexity also applies to card text. Monsters should only have 1 or 2 effects. If a monster has 4 effects, it will have an essay for an effect and people won't read it. It's also very difficult to keep track of all the effects and people waste alot of time reading cards or trying to find a specific effect in the essay they're reading. Introduce keywords. Once per turn can be a keyword, can't be destroyed can be a keyword, untargetable can be a keyword. Once all those common things become keywords, the actual effect text will be 1 or 2 sentences so it's easy to read. And by removing the bullshit ambiguous rules, that would naturally remove the need to worry about "When" and "if" and specific words that you have to actively look for.

 

In the end, this is what I believe the main problems with Yugioh are. Obviously power creep should be controlled and the game should stay balanced. But these are my solutions the big problems that nobody thinks or talks about because it's just become so commonplace in Yugioh people think it's normal. But in reality, this is not normal, it's ridiculous, and anybody who isn't conditioned to it will be turned off by it and refuse to play.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

1 hour ago, KH911 said:

Yugioh was my childhood. It's still my favourite card game to this day, but despite the fact that I've been playing Yugioh since 2002, the game is starting to become unbearable. Konami only cares about the competitive side, and all of their business/design decisions push away new, returning, casual, and collectors. In pretty much every game out there, the competitive players only make up about 10% of the community, Konami in their greed, has alienated 90% of the player base. This is not just bad for the health of the game, it's a terrible business decision (imagine how much more money they could get). But this is not just a post where I complain, so let's move on to my suggestions.

 

The problem isn't the amount of times people can special summon, or how many summoning mechanics there are, or even power creep. There's 3 main problems:

1. Over the past few years, cards have been getting increasingly more generic. 

2. Lack of a resource system.

3. Unnecessarily ambiguous and convoluted rules that serve no purpose but make the game more confusing, in addition to overloaded monster effects and essays of text of each card.

 

Let's start with the biggest problem. Accesscode, Apollousa, Borreload, Knightmares, Avramax, AA ZEUS, Baronne de fleur. This is the end goal of EVERY SINGLE DECK. These cards are fully generic so every deck has access to them. Some say it makes the game balanced, and I'll agree that it does, but it also makes every duel feel the exact same as the one before. Every deck brings out the same monsters, with the goal of negating everything, making every deck feel the same. This is boring, nobody likes this and it's a lazy approach to balance. Make it so archetypal bosses are archetype locked. You can only summon Accesscode using code talkers, you can only summon Avramax using Mekk-Knights, you can only summon Baronne de fleur using fleur synchron (or chevalier de fleur), you can only summon Borreload using Borrel/Rokket. After that, any cards that don't belong to an archetype will be type-locked or attribute-locked depending on power level. So Knightmares require fiends, Apollousa require Fairies, AA ZEUS require machine xyz. The only cards that should be fully generic, are the weak ones that can give your deck a slight boost, but don't result in an unbreakable board. Of course, errata'ing these cards isn't enough on it's own, Konami would have to uphold this philosophy with future designs as well.

 

Next, I believe Yugioh doesn't actually need a new resource system like mana or land. We already have an existing resource system that was utilized in the past: Life Points. Make monster effects cost a significant amount of life points. Battle effects would be free (battle archetypes desperate need the help), effects that search or draw would be 600 lp, effects that special summon, destroy, banish, or negate would be 1200 lp. Maybe the numbers need adjustment, but think about it. If your deck searched 6 times in 1 turn, that's -3600 lp, if you special summon 3 times, that's another -3600 lp, holy shit you're now at 800 lp. People will actually think about activating effects, because if they don't, they risk getting burned for game, or even just being unable to activate any more effects since they can't pay the lp cost. It would make burn cards more prevalent, and by extension anti-burn cards as well as lp gaining effects would be more prevalent. This would also increase the variety of cards people run in their decks, further reducing consistency and making it more enjoyable (I hope).

 

Finally, this is mostly a logistic change but it goes a long way in attracting new, returning, and casual players. Remove the bullshit ambiguous rules like missing timing, the 5000 steps of doing battle, and maybe some others I'm forgetting. As far as I can tell, players don't even uphold missing timing because it's dumb, it's only applied in high level tournament or if someone is rule-sharking. This is the shit that makes the game more complicated. People don't quit because there's 5 summoning mechanics, they quit because their monster said "When sent to the gy, do x" but then they lost the game cuz of missed timing. They lost the game cuz they try to use an effect in the damage step and they weren't allowed because only Konami knows why that rule exists in the first place. These rules are not fun, they're not intuitive, they're not necessary, and should not exist.

This complexity also applies to card text. Monsters should only have 1 or 2 effects. If a monster has 4 effects, it will have an essay for an effect and people won't read it. It's also very difficult to keep track of all the effects and people waste alot of time reading cards or trying to find a specific effect in the essay they're reading. Introduce keywords. Once per turn can be a keyword, can't be destroyed can be a keyword, untargetable can be a keyword. Once all those common things become keywords, the actual effect text will be 1 or 2 sentences so it's easy to read. And by removing the bullshit ambiguous rules, that would naturally remove the need to worry about "When" and "if" and specific words that you have to actively look for.

 

In the end, this is what I believe the main problems with Yugioh are. Obviously power creep should be controlled and the game should stay balanced. But these are my solutions the big problems that nobody thinks or talks about because it's just become so commonplace in Yugioh people think it's normal. But in reality, this is not normal, it's ridiculous, and anybody who isn't conditioned to it will be turned off by it and refuse to play.

I'm not so Sure that Konami is gonna listen to you or any of our concerns about the game because Konami let;s their Greed get the Best of them and You know Konami used to make Great Video Games before the indecent with Hideo Kojima 1 of Mental Gear Soild's Creators had a big fight with the Company and the way they treat their stuff and people and he left the company Konami did D*** a** moves to their Video Games cause Mobile they where trying to get on that train, but this really hasn't happened to Yugioh in fact name me 1 non-Yugioh Series who's controversy didn't and utter completely kill that franchise or did we all forget that Konami did try to turn Castlevania into an NFT Cash Cow and yugioh got the lucky end of the stick cause most of Konami's Video Game series are dead because of their greed Yugioh only has a**hole Power Creep and some stupid card rulings to deal with in fact Yugioh is the only series that Konami treats well because I think they like Yugioh and it is Konami's 1 True Safe Good Mine no Matter how much Power Creep they put into this game so why would they try to bend over backwards for you and slow down the game and added restrictions when they can do the extract opposite and ignore you and still protrait millions or even billions of dollars each time they release a New Pack, Booster Set, or Suture Deck, then again Yugioh is still around today and is the only 1 that is quite active you don't see that with Konami's other series and Konami cares more about Yugioh then their Other Series.

[KH911]

13 minutes ago, Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan said:

I'm not so Sure that Konami is gonna listen to you or any of our concerns about the game because Konami let;s their Greed get the Best of them and You know Konami used to make Great Video Games before the indecent with 1 of Mental Gear Soild's Creators had a big fight with the Company and the way they treat their stuff and people and he left the company Konami did D*** a** moves to their Video Games cause Mobile they where trying to get on that train, but this really hasn't happened to Yugioh in fact name me 1 non-Yugioh Series who's controversy didn't and utter completely kill that franchise or did we all forget that Konami did try to turn Castlevania into an NFT Cash Cow and yugioh got the lucky end of the stick cause most of Konami's Video Game series are dead because of their greed Yugioh only has a**hole Power Crrep to deal with in fact Yugioh is the only series that Konami treats well because I think they like Yugioh and it is Konami's 1 True Safe Good Mine no Matter how much Power Creep they put into this game so why would they try to bend over backwards for you and slow down the game and added restrictions when they can do the extract opposite and ingore you and still protrait millions or even billions of dollars each time they release a New Pack, Booster Set, or Suture Deck.

Very simply because there's not enough new players to keep the game alive. Once our generation stops playing Yugioh, that's it. Konami needs to realize this and start appealing to new players or there won't be anyone left to play.

[Zamazenta the OS-Tan Fan]

1 minute ago, KH911 said:

Very simply because there's not enough new players to keep the game alive. Once our generation stops playing Yugioh, that's it. Konami needs to realize this and start appealing to new players or there won't be anyone left to play.

You think there gonna listen to us I'm Gen Z and I think that's the cause with most Companies also I updated my old quote message refresh the page but yeah Konami only cares about Yugioh at this point...