New Mechanic Discussion

[KH911]

So I was going to post in experimental archive since that's what it's for, but it for some reason I didn't have that option (I think it's locked). Instead I decided to just explain the new mechanic and see what people think. 

 

I just finished a video talking about the most unusual effects in YGO and one of the cards was Pyro Clock of Destiny. I started thinking about ways to make it relevant and came up with this mechanic: Future Summon. I realize this is highly experimental and could be a complete failure of an idea, but it's worth a shot:

 

1. Future Monsters are extra deck monsters that tribute X number of monsters, (could be type, attribute, or archetype specific), and waiting Y number of turns to summon. After waiting Y number of turns, you can choose at any time (including the opponent's turn) to summon your Future Monster. If there's an effect that prevents special summoning (e.g. Vanity's Emptiness), you cannot summon a Future Monster, but you can still tribute monsters to begin a Future Summon. This allows you to complete your Future Summon once the floodgate is removed.

2. They would have a Timer in addition to their level. This Timer indicates how many turns you have to wait to summon the monster. The Timer becomes active once you tribute the necessary materials. When the turn count advances, the Timer counts down (advancing turns via pyro clock and similar effects count down the Timer), and when the Timer hits 0, you gain the ability to summon your monster.

3. Once a Future Monster is summoned, its Timer resets and can be reduced to activate effects (similar to xyz material). The Timer of face up Future Monsters still counts down when the turn count advances. Inversely, reducing the turn count will count up all Timers, which both delays Future Summons and increases the Timer of Future Monsters on the field. Setting the turn count to 0 has no effect on the Timer, however reducing the turn count past 0 will cancel in progress Future Summons.

4. Reducing the Timer of Future Monsters would be referred to as "Count Down". Similarly, increasing the Timer of a Future Monsters would be referred to as "Count Up".

5. Timer would be displayed on the bottom left of a card (I couldn't find any templates that let me do that so I just put it in the rules).

6. When the Timer hits 0, Future Monsters are placed face up in the extra deck. After waiting turns equal to its Timer, you can choose to summon a Future Monster during either player's standby phase. This is called Recursion.

7. Future Monsters that are face up in the extra deck can also be pendulum summoned or special summoned via card effect (e.g. special summon 1 face up monster in your extra deck). This could also be accompanied by cards that flip monsters in the extra deck from face up to face down, or vice versa, either to reset Future Monsters and fusion/synchro/xyz pendulums, or to mess with your opponent's strategy.

8. This would be supported by a Master Rule revision that slows down the game, since waiting turns is not really viable in the current state of the game.

 

Here's a sequence of events to help explain the flow of Advancing Turns:

1. You go first > Turn 1 > Standby phase 1 > play your turn > end phase 1

2. Turn 2 > Opponent draws for turn > standby phase 2 (Future Summon prompt) > they play their turn > Advance Turn via effect > turn 3 > end phase 2

3. Turn 4 > You draw for turn > standby phase 3 (Future Summon prompt) > your play your turn.

In each of those times that the turn count increases, your Future Monster gets 1 turn closer to being summoned (provided you've paid the necessary cost). And yes, Future Monsters can be summoned during your opponent's turn if you set it up properly.

 

I think these are all the required rulings I need to post, but please feel free to ask for clarification and/or make suggestions on how this can be improved. I appreciate criticism (especially on such an experimental mechanic) as long as it's respectful and constructive. I might create an example card and post it here if there's enough interest or simply if I feel like it.

Edit: Added rules 4 and 5.

Edit 2: Added rules 6, 7, and 8 and altered rule 3 accordingly.

Edit 3: Added rule 9 and a simple explanation of how Advancing Turns would work.

Edit 4: Added rule 10

Edit 5: Revised rules. Merged Rule 9 with Rule 1. Merged Rule 10 with Rule 2. Changed the explanation for advancing turns.

[Animav]

So, in a way, this is kinda like a buffering Tribute Summoning -- you Tribute for a monster that comes later, rather than immediately... It feels like too much investment for a payoff that might never get to come, honestly speaking. The game is too fast paced for such a slow mechanic to be profitable, in the sense that it's better to have some kind of immediate gain (going into a Synchro, Xyz, Link) rather than having to wait for turns you might not get.

That said, if you could like, discard the necessary cards for cost aside from field, it would at least make the payoff less costly, and could benefit Decks that like having monsters in the GY, but don't actually want to do that slowly. Maybe some of these monsters could even mill to satisfy the Summoning requirements, too!

Another thing I don't quite agree on is the fact that you have a time limit before the card you invested on just... Leaves the field without at least getting something back for it. Perhaps you could target 1 of the materials, Summon it, and then destroy this card. Alternatively, the card could just go back into the Extra Deck in a way similar to Pends. There could even be some kind of reward for bringing this card once and letting it go this way, like being able to Summon it again in less turns (thus you wouldn't get it if, say, it gets destroyed or leaves the field by any other way).

There could even be something like a cooldown for certain, extremely powerful cards. Like, if they leave the field because of their timer running out, they take longer to hit the field. Probably unnecessary, but this way you could make really bonkers effects, like a mass Monster Reborn on Summon, a big recursion, mass destruction of the opponent's board -- you name it. Some cards could even have indefinite requirements, and their timer would be equal to the cards you gave up for it.

Those would be it for my criticism, for the lack of a better word, I think.

I like the idea, and aside from how slow it could potentially be and how little you get back considering it isn't a permanently thing, I believe there's some good in there. Just for funsies, I even thought of making a card -- something that came to mind as I wrote this thing...

 

Red-eyes Doom Dragon

Timer-1+ / Dark / Dragon / Future / Effect

1 or more "Red-eyes" cards or Dragon monsters (from your field or hand)

ATK 3200 / DEF 2500

You can target any number of cards on the field equal to the number of materials used to Future Summon it: Destroy those targets, and if any monster was destroyed by this effect, inflict half of its ATK as damage to your opponent. 1 Countdown is applied to this card's Timer for every card targeted by this effect. If this face-up card leaves the field during the Standby Phase, you can target 1 "Red-eyes" monster in your GY: Special Summon that target ignoring its summoning conditions. Your opponent cannot activate cards in response to this effect.

[KH911]

So first I'm gonna post an example card I just made. This is not the flagship archetype for Future Summoning, just an example showcasing how Future Monsters would look like.

Quote

Future King of the Skull Servants

Level 1 / Zombie / Future / Effect

Materials: 1 or more level 3 or lower Zombie monsters
Increase this card's Timer for each monster used as material. This card's name is treated as "King of the Skull Servants" when in the field or GY. This card's ATK and DEF are equal to the number of "Skull Servant" and "King of the Skull Servants" in your GY x 200. Countdown 1; target 1 level 3 or lower Zombie monster in your deck or GY; either add it to your hand or send it to the GY. When this card leaves the field, special summon 1 "Skull Servant" or 1 monster that mentions it from your deck or GY, except "Future King of the Skull Servants".

Timer: 2  ATK/?  DEF/?

 

7 hours ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

So, in a way, this is kinda like a buffering Tribute Summoning -- you Tribute for a monster that comes later, rather than immediately... It feels like too much investment for a payoff that might never get to come, honestly speaking. The game is too fast paced for such a slow mechanic to be profitable, in the sense that it's better to have some kind of immediate gain (going into a Synchro, Xyz, Link) rather than having to wait for turns you might not get.

I realize the game is too fast paced in it's current form. But, there's a huge portion of the player base who love to play slower decks (like me) and wouldn't mind waiting a couple turns to bring out the monster. Assuming this gets implemented, it would probably be accompanied with a new Master Rule that slows down the game.

More importantly, and I emphasized this in the previous post, with the introduction of this mechanic, there will also be more cards that advance turn count. Whether it's attached to a monster effect, a spell, a trap, or even a handtrap, advancing turn count will speed up your Future Summons so you can get them out at a more reliable pace. Again, this mechanic is meant to create a use for cards like Pyro Clock which advance the turn count (currently a useless effect), and add more variety to card effects.

Quote

That said, if you could like, discard the necessary cards for cost aside from field, it would at least make the payoff less costly, and could benefit Decks that like having monsters in the GY, but don't actually want to do that slowly. Maybe some of these monsters could even mill to satisfy the Summoning requirements, too!

100% on board with this. I just didn't want to make it too OP. I considered allowing spells and traps to also be used as material, but stuck to monsters just to be on the safe side.

7 hours ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

Another thing I don't quite agree on is the fact that you have a time limit before the card you invested on just... Leaves the field without at least getting something back for it. Perhaps you could target 1 of the materials, Summon it, and then destroy this card. Alternatively, the card could just go back into the Extra Deck in a way similar to Pends. There could even be some kind of reward for bringing this card once and letting it go this way, like being able to Summon it again in less turns (thus you wouldn't get it if, say, it gets destroyed or leaves the field by any other way).

There could even be something like a cooldown for certain, extremely powerful cards. Like, if they leave the field because of their timer running out, they take longer to hit the field. Probably unnecessary, but this way you could make really bonkers effects, like a mass Monster Reborn on Summon, a big recursion, mass destruction of the opponent's board -- you name it. Some cards could even have indefinite requirements, and their timer would be equal to the cards you gave up for it.

This gave me a new idea: Recursion. When the Timer runs out, a Future Monster returns face up to the extra deck, and then after waiting a number of turns equal to their Timer, it automatically summons itself (for no cost). Future Monsters face up in the extra deck can also be pendulum summoned and summoned by card effects (e.g. special summon 1 face up monster in your extra deck). When a Future Monster is summoned face up from the extra deck, it is destroyed when the Timer runs out. I'm sure there can even be some effects that flip face extra deck monsters into face-down, resetting Future Monsters (as well as fusion/synchro/xyz pendulums). 

Also as stated in my first post, these monsters would most likely have floating effects to compliment their self destruction. There can even be cards that synergize with the Future Monsters self destructing. And if I get positive reception on the whole Recursion concept, then also some cards that synergize with Recursion.

7 hours ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

Red-eyes Doom Dragon

Timer-1+ / Dark / Dragon / Future / Effect

1 or more "Red-eyes" cards or Dragon monsters (from your field or hand)

ATK 3200 / DEF 2500

You can target any number of cards on the field equal to the number of materials used to Future Summon it: Destroy those targets, and if any monster was destroyed by this effect, inflict half of its ATK as damage to your opponent. 1 Countdown is applied to this card's Timer for every card targeted by this effect. If this face-up card leaves the field during the Standby Phase, you can target 1 "Red-eyes" monster in your GY: Special Summon that target ignoring its summoning conditions. Your opponent cannot activate cards in response to this effect.

I like how quickly you grasped the concept of Future Monsters. It mostly is how I imagined this mechanic to look like, but some minor suggestions would be: The proper way to use Countdown would be like I did with the example card (Countdown x, perform y effect). The other thing is that Timers don't necessarily run out in the standby phase, so your monster's floating effect doesn't actually work with Timers. Instead I would word like "When this card's Timer is 0, perform x effect" or if Recursion is added to the rules "When this card returns to the extra deck", or anything along those lines. Overall, it's what I wanted, a very powerful effect that encourages investing resources into summoning a Future Monster, the Timer being used properly, and some kind of self-destruct synergy.

 

If there's more interest in this mechanic, I'll make a mini-archetype fully expanding on the potential of this summoning mechanic.

[Animav]

I must admit that I originally skimmed through a lot of the things you mentioned and ended up missing some key details you did say that I -- redundantly -- brought up. Sorry for that.

I didn't miss the details about the game pushing out these advance (or return) turn counts alongside these new monsters, but since I was looking into this thinking the Master Rule was going to be mostly the same, I figured it still wouldn't be enough. Of course, with the now added context of this coming with a Master Rule revisions to slow the game down, stuff begins to make more sense, and more hopeful as well. Admittedly, I should've thought that this would be the case anyway, so I'm apologize for my hastiness all the same.

 

I'm digging into that idea of recursion, though. It evens out the severe payment by making them indefinitely available -- kinda like an Xyz monster but you can get it off the field to recover Xyz materials when it runs out of them. This does mean these effects do require a measure of balance, but then again, the really strong ones would probably need quite a while between summons, so I think it will be fine. Especially if, as you say, effects that mess with their Timers while on standby become a thing, as the really strong ones would be left open to these kinds of effects the most.

 

And yeah, I know there were mistakes in that card, but I kinda rushed it off my mind, so do excuse the rough edges. The last effect was actually me reading that they lose Timers on your Standby Phase, and also forgetting that they also lost them while activating their effects. A slip of the mind, but at least it serves to show that it's a really exciting prospect.

Just for the laughs, I'm going to give it another go...

 

Time Sage

Timer-2 / Light / Spellcaster / Future / Effect

2 Light monsters or Spells from your hand or field

ATK 2500 / DEF 2500

This card's name is also treated as "Time Wizard" while on the field or GY. When Future Summoned, you can target 1 card in your GY that was used for the Future Summon of this card: Either return it to your hand or shuffle it into the Deck. Countdown 1; during your Main Phase 1, you can banish any number of Spell Cards in your GY and target the same number of cards your opponent controls, then toss a coin and call it. If you call it right, send those targets to the GY and return the Spell cards you banished to your GY. If you call it wrong, return those targets to their hand, but you take 500 for every card targeted by this effect. You can only use this effect of "Time Sage" once per turn. When this card's Timer becomes 0 and it leaves the field, you can toss a coin and call it; if you call it right, this card's Timer is reduced by 1 it for its next Future Summon.

[KH911]

1 hour ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

I must admit that I originally skimmed through a lot of the things you mentioned and ended up missing some key details you did say that I -- redundantly -- brought up. Sorry for that.

I didn't miss the details about the game pushing out these advance (or return) turn counts alongside these new monsters, but since I was looking into this thinking the Master Rule was going to be mostly the same, I figured it still wouldn't be enough. Of course, with the now added context of this coming with a Master Rule revisions to slow the game down, stuff begins to make more sense, and more hopeful as well. Admittedly, I should've thought that this would be the case anyway, so I'm apologize for my hastiness all the same.

No need to apologize, there's alot of text to read and it's to miss/forget something. I was just reminding you of some things. I'll probably mention a Master Rule revision as part of the next edit to the mechanic explanation.

1 hour ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

I'm digging into that idea of recursion, though. It evens out the severe payment by making them indefinitely available -- kinda like an Xyz monster but you can get it off the field to recover Xyz materials when it runs out of them. This does mean these effects do require a measure of balance, but then again, the really strong ones would probably need quite a while between summons, so I think it will be fine. Especially if, as you say, effects that mess with their Timers while on standby become a thing, as the really strong ones would be left open to these kinds of effects the most.

This is thanks to your earlier criticism. I think I'm going to add it to the rules.

1 hour ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

And yeah, I know there were mistakes in that card, but I kinda rushed it off my mind, so do excuse the rough edges. The last effect was actually me reading that they lose Timers on your Standby Phase, and also forgetting that they also lost them while activating their effects. A slip of the mind, but at least it serves to show that it's a really exciting prospect.

No worries, it's expected that there would be mistakes when working with a mechanic this experimental. I was just correcting some small things so that you know the proper wording in the future.

 

1 hour ago, Aníbal Salazar said:

Time Sage

Timer-2 / Light / Spellcaster / Future / Effect

2 Light monsters or Spells from your hand or field

ATK 2500 / DEF 2500

This card's name is also treated as "Time Wizard" while on the field or GY. When Future Summoned, you can target 1 card in your GY that was used for the Future Summon of this card: Either return it to your hand or shuffle it into the Deck. Countdown 1; during your Main Phase 1, you can banish any number of Spell Cards in your GY and target the same number of cards your opponent controls, then toss a coin and call it. If you call it right, send those targets to the GY and return the Spell cards you banished to your GY. If you call it wrong, return those targets to their hand, but you take 500 for every card targeted by this effect. You can only use this effect of "Time Sage" once per turn. When this card's Timer becomes 0 and it leaves the field, you can toss a coin and call it; if you call it right, this card's Timer is reduced by 1 it for its next Future Summon.

I really like this. Aside from the Time Wizard coin flip shenanigans (which in this case removes the opponent's monsters regardless of the result), a coin flip to reduce his Timer was a creative use of Recursion. Although I'm still not completely sold on using materials from the hand, I'll need to see what other people think before I make my decision. 

[Loleo]

I like the idea behind this! The cards that have been posted are at a pretty nice power level and I like how the number of materials is affecting the cards' timer! I like the idea that you fufil the summoning conditions and then you CAN wait. (This idea would be broken in my time sorcerers deck tho lol)

[KH911]

It occurred to me as I was making the Chrono cards, but the Future Summon are actually a great counter to cards like Vanity's Emptiness since you can still tribute the required cards, and then you have 2-3 turns to remove a floodgate before your monster auto-summons itself. That way floodgate players won't be so keen on activating all their floodgates right away, but they also won't be able to hold on to their floodgates because they'll be letting you fusion/synchro/xyz/link.

[Animav]

This does raise an interesting question, though. If any floodgate [that prohibits Special Summoning] is up when the Future Monster auto-summoning begins, what would happen? Does nothing happen and you lose your materials (the most likely); the summon begins, gets negated and then the monster is sent to the GY; or does the summon begins, gets negated and then the monster is sent to the Extra Deck face-up, with the timer beginning anew?

[KH911]

Well the answer to that depends on what the community finds most acceptable. But I would say that if a floodgate is face-up when it's time for your Future Monster to summon itself, nothing happens and you lose the materials you invested on it.

[KH911]

Bumping this since I made an update to the rules.

[Loleo]

On 8/16/2022 at 7:34 PM, KH911 said:

1. Future Monsters are extra deck monsters that tribute X number of monsters, (could be type, attribute, or archetype specific), and waiting Y number of turns to summon. These monsters would have extremely powerful effects considering the ridiculous summoning condition and would add some more spice to the game by adding a new potential effect that can be placed on monsters: advancing turns. Currently in the game the only way to speed this up is pyro clock, but they can add more cards that do so. Also adding more (actually good) cards that advance turn could make things like Final Countdown, Destiny Clock Tower, and Great Moth (yes I know it won't be meta) more viable. If you really want, I can change it to use any card you control in order to make them a bit easier to summon.

I think adding "At Least" Y number of turns would make this a lot more flexible.

2. They would have a Timer in addition to their level. This Timer would initially be equal to how many turns you had to wait to summon it (advancing turns via pyro clock and similar effects still counts towards the Timer) and can be spent to activate effects (similar to XYZ materials). This opens up 2 venues. First, just like XYZ monsters were loved for their ability to pay a unique cost to activate their effects, these monsters would have the ability to reduce their Timer to activate powerful effects. Second, there would be card effects that increase/decrease the Timer of Future Monsters, which again adds a bit more spice since it increases the variety of effects that cards can have.

3. The Timer counts down by 1 for each turn it's on the field (normally during the standby phase but advancing turns via effects would count it down immediately after resolving the effect). This also opens up the potential of turn advancing effects as a counter to Future Monsters.

I don't think this should be standard, just on some of them?

4. Reducing the Timer of Future Monsters would be referred to as "Countdown".

5. Timer would be displayed on the bottom left of a card (I couldn't find any templates that let me do that so I just put it in the rules).

6. When the Timer hits 0, Future Monsters are placed face up in the extra deck. After waiting turns equal to its Timer, that monster will automatically summon itself for no cost. This is called Recursion.

What if you could keep waiting, instead of it just summoning itself.

7. Future Monsters that are face up in the extra deck can also be pendulum summoned or special summoned via card effect (e.g. special summon 1 face up monster in your extra deck). This could also be accompanied by cards that flip monsters in the extra deck from face up to face down, or vice versa, either to reset Future Monsters and fusion/synchro/xyz pendulums, or to mess with your opponent's strategy.

8. This would be supported by a Master Rule revision that slows down the game, since waiting turns is not really viable in the current state of the game.

Would love to here some examples of this? (A limited number of Special Summons, smaller hands, more LP?)

9. If a there's an effect that prevents special summoning (e.g. Vanity's Emptiness) when it's time for your Future Monster to summon itself, it will not summon. However, cards can still be tributed for a Future Summon, and the Future Summon will count down the turns, even if there's an effect that prevents special summoning. This means you begin a Future Summon, and then deal with the floodgate in the next 2-3 turns to ensure your monster gets summoned.

As of my previous suggestions, what if you choose when to summon your monster and you just can't do it while the floodgate is out. If you attempt to summon and a floodgate is activated in response you deal with it as normal.

10. Similarly, turning back the turn count will delay Future Summons and setting the turn count to 0 will cancel in progress Future Summons.

As stated, I think "seting" a turn count would do nothing, the turn count can't be negative, and if a timer would be decreased to a negative number it stops attempting to summon itself.

Also, would decreasing the turn count increase the timer Future Summoned monsters on the field (as per the inverse of rule 3)?!?

Here's a sequence of events to help explain the flow of Advancing Turns:

1. You go first > Turn 0 > Draw opening Hand > Standby phase 1 > Turn 1 > play your turn > end phase 1

2. Opponent draws for turn > standby phase 2 > turn 2 > they play their turn > Pilot quick effect > turn 3 > end phase 2

3. You draw for turn > standby phase 3 > turn 4 > your play your turn.

In each of those times that the turn count increases, your Future Monster gets 1 turn closer to being summoned (provided you've paid the necessary cost). And yes, Future Monsters can be summoned during your opponent's turn if you set it up properly.

The timer increases between turns! That's how yu-gi-oh works that's why it's called a turn counter. That last explanation about advancing turns hurts (Would also argue there is no turn zero). The Timer should increase between the end of 1 player's end phase and the beggining of the next draw phase. This a point in time nobody can do anything including future summoning!

(More in quote)

[KH911]

14 minutes ago, Loleo said:

The timer increases between turns! That's how yu-gi-oh works that's why it's called a turn counter. That last explanation about advancing turns hurts (Would also argue there is no turn zero). The Timer should increase between the end of 1 player's end phase and the beggining of the next draw phase. This a point in time nobody can do anything including future summoning!

(More in quote)

You brought some really good points. I'm gonna have to take some time to revise some of these rules. What I can say is that I want future summoning to be possible during the opponent's turn, which is why I chose the standby phase for when the turn count increases. 

[Loleo]

1 hour ago, KH911 said:

You brought some really good points. I'm gonna have to take some time to revise some of these rules. What I can say is that I want future summoning to be possible during the opponent's turn, which is why I chose the standby phase for when the turn count increases. 

I think that's a wonderful idea. If the mechanic allowed you to summon during either player's Standby Phase or Main Phase it would be perfect!

Do you think there's a reason the summon has to be done during the standby phase?

[KH911]

Ok I revised all the rules based on @Loleo's suggestions. However for the Master Rule changes, I don't think this is a task I can do on my own so we can all brainstorm something that would be good.

[WhiteThunder777]

Can Future monsters be affected by Forbidden Droplet?  

[Loleo]

1 minute ago, Surge77754 said:

Can Future monsters be affected by Forbidden Droplet?  

I would assume yes, there effects would be temporarily turned off, but it doesn't affect their counter.

[WhiteThunder777]

2 minutes ago, Loleo said:

I would assume yes, there effects would be temporarily turned off, but it doesn't affect their counter.

Cuz Future monsters, the way I see them, are like effect monsters.  

[Loleo]

36 minutes ago, Surge77754 said:

Cuz Future monsters, the way I see them, are like effect monsters.  

Almost every monster is an effect monster, and they will have effects.

[KH911]

4 hours ago, Surge77754 said:

Cuz Future monsters, the way I see them, are like effect monsters.  

I'll be posting the final set of cards for this mechanic's flagship archetype, Chrono, soon. It's going to have all the extra deck monsters, so you can check it out if you wanna see how it would work.

You can find the topic in casual cards, it's titled "Chrono, an archetype of time travellers".

[WhiteThunder777]

19 hours ago, KH911 said:

I'll be posting the final set of cards for this mechanic's flagship archetype, Chrono, soon. It's going to have all the extra deck monsters, so you can check it out if you wanna see how it would work.

You can find the topic in casual cards, it's titled "Chrono, an archetype of time travellers".

That's great! I'll look into it.