So what do you think of Tribute Summons?

[Sleepy]

For this one, I need to wrap the explanation around the card itself. It is basically a downgrade version of Zaborg the Thunder Monarch. The main thing is not the card itself but the theory. 

Zargon the Lord of Lightning
LIGHT Level 5 [Thunder/Effect] 2000/800
If this card is Tribute Summoned: You can discard 1 card to target 1 monster on the field; destroy it.

So Tribute Summon is one of the unfortunate mechanics for most of the game's history has not been able to shine as much. Basically every Tribute Summon usage has to come with a way to cheat you out of having to perform the mechanic's procedures, rather than setting up your gameplan so you can normally do it yourself. Then like 90% of mainstream Tribute Summons in the game's history are basically the monarchs, which outclassed the entire mechanic into Tribute Summons requiring immediate face-value advantage gaining effects and pretty much to always be able to contend at the 2400 ATK threshold. "Gold Standard" meant they had both things. "Good enough" meant they had one (either the ATK or the effect at top shape) and were usually rogue strategies like Dragons or Jinzo (which some people can argue was less favorable than Mobius in most common scenarios)

Everything else was everything else, which contained some interesting ideas but ultimately were just underpowered. I am using mostly Goat Format era samples here because it is about the last time where I saw Tribute Summons generically splashed overall (then Synchros would take over and Monarchs would resort to Desfrog and other Tribute reduction schemes that'd be more and more refined with time until the Domain days). So I thought maybe if I tweak the power of the Tribute Summons it could be one way to help diversify things. More casual-stuff maybe just needs bigger something in some setting to contend, and with the same coin, Monarchs which originally overshadowed everything else now would get lower stats and require an additional cost to go off (in this case a discard on top of everything).

Though one might argue that even Monarchs were not good enough to be anything beyond teched in small doses during this era, which would in turn mean they are actually the bare minimum of "good" a Tribute Summoned monster has to be in order to be worth the time of day at all, so crippling them risks having zero good Tribute Summons left and nothing being good enough to warrant space.... That is where I would have doubts.

I'm inclined to believe Tribute Summons would still require the rest of the game to bend around them a bit more. Not in a way that necessarily cheats them out like IRL does, but making sure staple removal doesn't kill them just as easily as they do low Level monsters, as it ruins the extra investment Tribute Summons require to be playable and therefore discourages the use of the mechanic as a whole. Though that sounds like a different beast.

 

[Kokoroshi]

In the state that Yu-GI-Oh! is in nowadays, tribute summoning is basically over shadowed by everything else, especially in meta play, but there is some times (at least in casual play) you do find some situations where it’s better to tribute summon a monster than to do try so get something into your hand for plays. An example I used to run into a lot back when I played a lot with Blue-Eyes is tributing one of the stones and a Blue-Eyes to summon Blue-Eyes, usually at this point I’d have Silver dragon on the field as well so id get an advantage from tribute summoning. It was niche but it was something that worked out when the situation arose. Im fine with the way the game is now but it does suck that tribute summoning is so rare.

[Loleo]

What you have made with your monster is indeed unplayable, Flunder and monarchs are the only 2 good uses!

[Tinkerer]

(lol. You just made the card because the general ygo discussion forum is gone, didn't you?)

Even in a context where ygo history is revised, it is tough to see tribute summoning ever fully coming into its own, especially once Synchros become a thing and Special Summons become much more commonplace.

Tribute Summons unfortunately fall to something more fundamental than even Ritual Summons and Fusions. The latter two needed specific cards and usually needed them in specific places, but those downsides can be (and have been) mitigated. Tribute Summons, however, simply fall into the trap of being a mechanic linked to the only truly limiting factor in ygo: the single Normal Summon.

 

On a different, but not unrelated topic, Tribute Summons in Rush Duels are so common it doesn't really feel special at all. Without that hard Normal Summon restriction, Tribute Summons become intertwined with the gameplay loop in a unique way. Level 5 monsters tend to support strategies with recycling, Special Summons, and other support effects. Level 6s also support, but they often have effects that can let them become bigger (or shrink opposing monsters) so they can win 1v1s against 2-tribute monsters. Level 7-8 monsters retain the classic "boss monster" role.

Even though Fusions are generally the stronger option as a strategy and Rush Duel decks like "Gate Order" choose to cheat out their high level monsters more often than tribute summoning them, it's usually still critical to build RD decks with a handful of tribute summons because of how effective they are.

 

[Sleepy]

3 hours ago, Redro said:

(lol. You just made the card because the general ygo discussion forum is gone, didn't you?)

Even in a context where ygo history is revised, it is tough to see tribute summoning ever fully coming into its own, especially once Synchros become a thing and Special Summons become much more commonplace.

Tribute Summons unfortunately fall to something more fundamental than even Ritual Summons and Fusions. The latter two needed specific cards and usually needed them in specific places, but those downsides can be (and have been) mitigated. Tribute Summons, however, simply fall into the trap of being a mechanic linked to the only truly limiting factor in ygo: the single Normal Summon.

 

On a different, but not unrelated topic, Tribute Summons in Rush Duels are so common it doesn't really feel special at all. Without that hard Normal Summon restriction, Tribute Summons become intertwined with the gameplay loop in a unique way. Level 5 monsters tend to support strategies with recycling, Special Summons, and other support effects. Level 6s also support, but they often have effects that can let them become bigger (or shrink opposing monsters) so they can win 1v1s against 2-tribute monsters. Level 7-8 monsters retain the classic "boss monster" role.

Even though Fusions are generally the stronger option as a strategy and Rush Duel decks like "Gate Order" choose to cheat out their high level monsters more often than tribute summoning them, it's usually still critical to build RD decks with a handful of tribute summons because of how effective they are.

 

Hmm kinda xD
I do have interest in making a custom pool of cards that can make up a format of the kind "only cards in this pool exist for the purposes of this format", but making cards that are too blatantly more underpowered versions of IRL cards usually has the downside that a playerbase would still keep some stigma about "x is a suckier version of Y IRL" and that can hurt a card's chances of seeing play or feeling fun..... in theory. So I don't think the sample I made is exactly a wise implementation. ^^"
I am not sure how I plan on making it.... even starting it, but there's a number of changes I've been meaning to playtest inserted into a modified but very primitive version of the game and building up from there, adding in more modern features if this "base test" is successful enough.....  This is mainly about the Tribute Summon theory (yes I miss the theory section xD ) but other than that here are other concepts/ideas after the - - -


Yeah Rush Duel has pretty different specks. From what I got to see, 1500 is the max stat of non-Tributes, and it isn't uncommon to see 1600 - 1800 ATK Level 5 vanillas in the anime.... not that the anime has ever been great at giving a realistic feel of what the actual GOOD competitive cards might be getting use IRL. As far as Rush Duel is concerned, it made higher Level monsters more akin to what other games would deem "Grade 2/Grade 3" (in Vanguard or in Wixoss). Meaning now they are very much not all that special as bosses but are still bigger than average and very much mandatory to keep some ratio of them in decks. Eventually these come to a point in the duel where small/cheap monsters are just not good enough to win any exchanges.

In other threads of the past I once saw a suggestion I personally liked a lot: Giving Tribute Summon/Set its own "you can do this once per turn", in addition to the Normal Summon/Set players already get. This would make it so that Level 5-6 monsters don't need to worry about time investment as they become potentially just as immediate as your typical old school 1900 ATK Level 4 vanilla beater, while still maintaining some sense of investment because Tributing is still a -1 after all. Meanwhile Level 7+ monsters would no longer be utterly unplayable, although would still be risky enough to keep acting as bosses (essentially they'd feel a bit similar to how Level 6 mosnters currently feel IRL to try to play in terms of difficulty).

- - - -
Random Ritual talk: 

Ritual Monsters are a very big testament to the amount of roadblocks they were designed with. Pretty much upon release they had 3 unlimited Stratos when nothing else in the game did (Manju/Senju/Sonic Bird). These only facilitated on average 50% of the setup (1 Ritual Spell that does nothing else, 1 Ritual Monster that is over-Leveled for what it is, and usually 2 Tributed monsters needed to fulfill said over-Leveled cost).

I'd personally do a number of changes ot the mechanic:
-Have them inherently be possible to Ritual Summon from the Deck (but also still from hand too).
-Make Ritual Spells dual in purpose.... check whatever fillery spells they have prepared for a set (Eternal Rest, Stop Defense, Hinotama, etc) which can potentially serve a fun casual setup on their own, and give those the Ritual Icon so they get that Sonic Birrd search support going for them, and give them an "and/or" or a second bullet effect that does the actual Ritual Summon if you happen to fulfill the conditions. This would make for less dead cards.
-I'd make sure Rituals get lower Levels than their average stats would otherwise imply. For example: Dokuro Rider as a Level 3 or even Level 2, not a Level 6 (added benefit is that if some of these Ritual instructions demand exact Levels, then there'd be an excuse to run more varied starred monsters in old school Yugioh.
-Despite the above, actually not making Ritual instructions ALWAYS rely on stars. It can totally be but I also very much liked what Drytron did with their RItual Spell concept. It opens up a can of worms that sounds like a lot of fun: Matching Type/Attribute, Matching ATK total, or DEF total, who knows what else. Really the only REAL condition for Ritual Summoning a monster is that you follow the effect's instructions for said effect's Ritual Summon to be performed..... I would be find with that personally.

^I'd like to test those things NOT with something like Gishiki or Nekroz in mind, but with more casual stuff like Crab Turble or BLS to get a proper feel of it.

- - - - - -

While at it: Fusions.....

Fusions are weird... somehow the IRL game has succeeded in making the usage of good old classic "Polymerization" to use up actual hand/field resources for your Fusion Summon somehow be a lot more attractive than the +0 "cheat it out" alternatives like Dragon's Mirror. Kudos.... I do have 1 complain for now about Fusions though: I'd like them to retain their materials' names. It is a bit nonsensical to me that Blue-Eyes White Dragon can use Burst Stream of Destruction but Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon can't, or Elemental HERO Plasma Vice can't use Spark Blaster when it has the totality of Sparkman's being as part of its mix.

[Kokoroshi]

9 hours ago, Sleepy said:

Hmm kinda xD
I do have interest in making a custom pool of cards that can make up a format of the kind "only cards in this pool exist for the purposes of this format", but making cards that are too blatantly more underpowered versions of IRL cards usually has the downside that a playerbase would still keep some stigma about "x is a suckier version of Y IRL" and that can hurt a card's chances of seeing play or feeling fun..... in theory. So I don't think the sample I made is exactly a wise implementation. ^^"
I am not sure how I plan on making it.... even starting it, but there's a number of changes I've been meaning to playtest inserted into a modified but very primitive version of the game and building up from there, adding in more modern features if this "base test" is successful enough.....  This is mainly about the Tribute Summon theory (yes I miss the theory section xD ) but other than that here are other concepts/ideas after the - - -


Yeah Rush Duel has pretty different specks. From what I got to see, 1500 is the max stat of non-Tributes, and it isn't uncommon to see 1600 - 1800 ATK Level 5 vanillas in the anime.... not that the anime has ever been great at giving a realistic feel of what the actual GOOD competitive cards might be getting use IRL. As far as Rush Duel is concerned, it made higher Level monsters more akin to what other games would deem "Grade 2/Grade 3" (in Vanguard or in Wixoss). Meaning now they are very much not all that special as bosses but are still bigger than average and very much mandatory to keep some ratio of them in decks. Eventually these come to a point in the duel where small/cheap monsters are just not good enough to win any exchanges.

In other threads of the past I once saw a suggestion I personally liked a lot: Giving Tribute Summon/Set its own "you can do this once per turn", in addition to the Normal Summon/Set players already get. This would make it so that Level 5-6 monsters don't need to worry about time investment as they become potentially just as immediate as your typical old school 1900 ATK Level 4 vanilla beater, while still maintaining some sense of investment because Tributing is still a -1 after all. Meanwhile Level 7+ monsters would no longer be utterly unplayable, although would still be risky enough to keep acting as bosses (essentially they'd feel a bit similar to how Level 6 mosnters currently feel IRL to try to play in terms of difficulty).

- - - -
Random Ritual talk: 

Ritual Monsters are a very big testament to the amount of roadblocks they were designed with. Pretty much upon release they had 3 unlimited Stratos when nothing else in the game did (Manju/Senju/Sonic Bird). These only facilitated on average 50% of the setup (1 Ritual Spell that does nothing else, 1 Ritual Monster that is over-Leveled for what it is, and usually 2 Tributed monsters needed to fulfill said over-Leveled cost).

I'd personally do a number of changes ot the mechanic:
-Have them inherently be possible to Ritual Summon from the Deck (but also still from hand too).
-Make Ritual Spells dual in purpose.... check whatever fillery spells they have prepared for a set (Eternal Rest, Stop Defense, Hinotama, etc) which can potentially serve a fun casual setup on their own, and give those the Ritual Icon so they get that Sonic Birrd search support going for them, and give them an "and/or" or a second bullet effect that does the actual Ritual Summon if you happen to fulfill the conditions. This would make for less dead cards.
-I'd make sure Rituals get lower Levels than their average stats would otherwise imply. For example: Dokuro Rider as a Level 3 or even Level 2, not a Level 6 (added benefit is that if some of these Ritual instructions demand exact Levels, then there'd be an excuse to run more varied starred monsters in old school Yugioh.
-Despite the above, actually not making Ritual instructions ALWAYS rely on stars. It can totally be but I also very much liked what Drytron did with their RItual Spell concept. It opens up a can of worms that sounds like a lot of fun: Matching Type/Attribute, Matching ATK total, or DEF total, who knows what else. Really the only REAL condition for Ritual Summoning a monster is that you follow the effect's instructions for said effect's Ritual Summon to be performed..... I would be find with that personally.

^I'd like to test those things NOT with something like Gishiki or Nekroz in mind, but with more casual stuff like Crab Turble or BLS to get a proper feel of it.

- - - - - -

While at it: Fusions.....

Fusions are weird... somehow the IRL game has succeeded in making the usage of good old classic "Polymerization" to use up actual hand/field resources for your Fusion Summon somehow be a lot more attractive than the +0 "cheat it out" alternatives like Dragon's Mirror. Kudos.... I do have 1 complain for now about Fusions though: I'd like them to retain their materials' names. It is a bit nonsensical to me that Blue-Eyes White Dragon can use Burst Stream of Destruction but Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon can't, or Elemental HERO Plasma Vice can't use Spark Blaster when it has the totality of Sparkman's being as part of its mix.

I’m sorry Sleepy but I refuse to read this many paragraphs.