Kithira Spellthief [Written]

[CiCi174]

Kithira Spellthief
L2/WATER
Spellcaster/Tuner/Effect
(Quick Effect): You can discard 1 Spell, then target 1 Spell in either GY; banish it, and if you do and it is a Normal or Quick-Play Spell that meets its activation conditions, this effect becomes that Spell's effect when that card is activated, also you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the End Phase. You can only use this effect of "Kithira Spellthief" once per turn.
500/700

 

I hope that I've worded the effect properly, but if I haven't the basic jist is that this card allows you to either:

●  Recur non-once per turn Spell Cards from your GY, OR

●  Point remove key Spell Cards from your opponent's GY so that they cannot activate/return them to the deck/hand.

Of course, the added bonus is that if they're also running generics that could help you out, you can also just steal them too. Something like Monster Reborn, Raigeki, Called By The Grave etc. could be incredibly useful to your overall strategy, and the potential to have 2 of them by proxy is incredibly strong. Hopefully not too strong though, so comments and critiques are welcomed!

EDIT LOG:

29/01: Fixed the effect wording to be correct with PSCT (Thanks for the fix Rayfield Lumina!)

31/01: Second PSCT correction for the effect (Thanks for the additional fix Messoras!)

17/02: Changed the effect slightly to aid in utility. FINAL EDIT

[Dokutah]

i guess its balance?

its has specific cost but still generic enough given its the 2nd most used card type in the game and it has flexibility of copying opponent stuff. banning you from using more spell until the end phase of the turn is enough penalty i guess

 

[CiCi174]

4 hours ago, Dokutah Jolly said:

i guess its balance?

its has specific cost but still generic enough given its the 2nd most used card type in the game and it has flexibility of copying opponent stuff. banning you from using more spell until the end phase of the turn is enough penalty i guess

 

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, to be fair that was my concern with it as well, but I honestly think that is isn't too bad. Not sure about all of the interactions, but unless they have a Spell Card you can use in your deck then I imagine you wouldn't be able to activate it. Though, I think then it becomes a good "Called By The Grave" situation where you can banish a card that they could get back (Looking mainly at Sky Strikers here).

[Tinkerer]

That name makes it sound like a Magic card xD

I think I have to echo Jolly, it looks potentially really powerful, but it has a really hard restriction that I think balances it out?  It's actually really tough to say one way or the other because of the sheer number of cards this interacts with.

That said, this reminds me of Diamond Dude in that it can bypass Spell costs meaning it can become an effective field nuke (alongside things like Lightning Storm or Super Poly), or it can act as a free draw card (copying Pot of Desires).  It would need to be used alongside a board that can protect it, but I actually like this design.

[Rayfield Lumina]

If you allow me, a bit of grammar polish n.n

Quote

(Quick Effect): You can discard 1 Spell, then target 1 Spell in either GY; banish it, and if you do, activate that target's effect, and if you do you that, you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the next End Phase. You can only use this effect of "Kithira Spellthief" once per turn.

lol, looks like I'm just removing stuff like crazy, but yeah, I do so because some stuff is redundant, such as "Discard from your hand" or the first part, whilst you control etc. Note that I didn't use Spell Card in the first two mentions of the spell, but I did in the last. That's because you don't say Card unless you're talking about the activation of said card.

Well, I know that's part of the card's flavour, but it's a pity it's a spellcaster and not a, Aqua, Fish or Sea Serpent. That way, it could be target-able by Surface, but at least it can be recycled by Salvage :)

[CiCi174]

On 1/28/2021 at 7:28 PM, Mr Melon said:

That name makes it sound like a Magic card xD

I think I have to echo Jolly, it looks potentially really powerful, but it has a really hard restriction that I think balances it out?  It's actually really tough to say one ay or the other because of the sheer number of cards this interacts with.

That said, this reminds me of Diamond Dude in that it can bypass Spell costs meaning it can become an effective field nuke (alongside things like Lightning Storm or Super Poly), or it can act as a free draw card (copying Pot of Desires).  It would need to be used alongside a board that can protect it, but I actually like this design.

Yeah, honestly the name was originally gonna be "Kithkin" but it turns out that was a pure MtG invention and not based on folklore (name-wise at least), but researching into the name "Kithra" is another name for Mermaid. So, that changed the focus to being a WATER rather than LIGHT or EARTH, and if I had artwork it would look like a Merfolk Sorceress/Apprentice. Which is a far departure from short elf-like people .

I hadn't thought about it being able to bypass the costs, I was thinking that it would still have to pay them to activate the effect? But that could be me not interpreting card interactions correctly (my main basis was Predaplant Verde Anaconda, because after you use it to blitz out Dragoon with R/E Fusion, you can't Special Summon afterwards). So that's a cool thing I didn't realise. And as for basing a deck around it, I was thinking of doing something like an Archetype based around Spell Discard and ability theft to some degree, but still working out how I would incorporate other Kithira Monsters and dedicated support to it! 

Thank you for the feedback, I'm glad you like the card!

On 1/28/2021 at 8:06 PM, Rayfield Lumina said:

If you allow me, a bit of grammar polish n.n

lol, looks like I'm just removing stuff like crazy, but yeah, I do so because some stuff is redundant, such as "Discard from your hand" or the first part, whilst you control etc. Note that I didn't use Spell Card in the first two mentions of the spell, but I did in the last. That's because you don't say Card unless you're talking about the activation of said card.

Well, I know that's part of the card's flavour, but it's a pity it's a spellcaster and not a, Aqua, Fish or Sea Serpent. That way, it could be target-able by Surface, but at least it can be recycled by Salvage :)

The PSCT corrections and explanations are much appreciated! I thought I was alright with it, but it looks like I still need some practice . Gonna be updating the first post with this new card text as soon as this is posted. Also gonna keep it in mind for my future endeavours.

I know, I was really tempted to as well, but I thought that it might actually become a bit too splashible in decks if it was? Like, especially with the level and it being a Tuner, I know that gives it a major advantage as is, and could possibly see play in Toadaly Awesome decks, but having it be a Spellcaster locks it from being searched by some of the more powerful search cards in the game (powerful due to the limited amount of cards they can actually get), and then it would be far to easy to play. Along with it's very specific cost and harsh restriction, making it harder to get out by generic methods was also something that played into it there.

Thank you again for the card text fixes, and for the feedback!

[Rayfield Lumina]

28 minutes ago, CiCi174 said:

The PSCT corrections and explanations are much appreciated! I thought I was alright with it, but it looks like I still need some practice . Gonna be updating the first post with this new card text as soon as this is posted. Also gonna keep it in mind for my future endeavours.

I know, I was really tempted to as well, but I thought that it might actually become a bit too splashible in decks if it was? Like, especially with the level and it being a Tuner, I know that gives it a major advantage as is, and could possibly see play in Toadaly Awesome decks, but having it be a Spellcaster locks it from being searched by some of the more powerful search cards in the game (powerful due to the limited amount of cards they can actually get), and then it would be far to easy to play. Along with it's very specific cost and harsh restriction, making it harder to get out by generic methods was also something that played into it there.

Thank you again for the card text fixes, and for the feedback!

You're welcome, I'm glad my review was of use. Also, pretty understandable what you did with the typing, tbh part of why I mentioned Surface was because I'm a fan of those types n.n

[Dokutah]

@CiCi174 given tuners with self summon/swarm abilities is Halqifibrax food i guess your card is safe from such abuse, thus is splashable but not dangerously powerful. So, good job

To your concern, your card did work exactly like Anaconda (well also diamond dude but thats too far of comparation) so in simple terms is practically ignore anything behind colon and semi colon. I do heard that Red-Eyes Fusion and anaconda has specific interaction that somehow bypass final penalty of the fusion. But i havent reconfirming that

[HQCardmaker]

Very nice card. Simple, flexable, and has a lot of use.

[Messoras]

Um I actually like the concept of the card but the PSCT is still kinda gibberish.

"banish it, and if you do, activate that target's effect" kinda represents an impossible ruling for a Quick Effect. There are cards like "Metaverse", that place cards on the field and cards like "Predaplant Verte Anaconda", that copy the effect of other cards, but a card stating something like "activate ..." would have to start a new chain. Since your effect is an activated Quick Effect, which can be any link of an existing chain, it cannot really start a chain inside its chain link (Building chains, then resolving chains - when resolving no new chain links can be added). If it was an Ignition or Trigger Effect like "Diamond Dude" you could actually use this wording.
In this manner I think what you would want your card text to be is something like this:

Quote

(Quick Effect): You can discard 1 Spell, then target 1 Normal or Quick-Play Spell in either GY that meets its activation conditions; banish it, and if you do, this effect becomes that Spell's effect when that card is activated, also you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the End Phase. You can only use this effect of "Kithira Spellthief" once per turn.

I also specified the type of the Spells, as it's weird to copy effects of Equip or Field Spell cards and changed the "and if you do you that" part to "also" as the first "and if you do" already defines wether the effect successfully resolved, so the "and if it does" (become the effect) is already given. I think checking if the effect actually resolved as intended could be a little difficult. Example:
You target a "Monster Reborn", but your opponent chains the effect of "Ultimate Offering" to Summon "Vanity's Ruler", so "Ultimate Offering" would resolve first to Summon "Vanity's Ruler", then you would banish Monster Reborn but you would not be able to resolve its effect since you can no longer Special Summon under "Vanity's Ruler"'s effect. With my given psct fix you would still be locked out of using Spell Cards until the next End Phase. If you would want the drawback only to take effect if the card you are copying resolved successfully, you would have to include something like

"After this effect has been activated and successfully resolved, you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the End Phase."

But since there is not a single card in that game that has those specified conditions and I know that it would pretty much be impossible to script that, I'd rather stick to the "also" wording. I mean how I worded it you would not even get the drawback if your effect got negated.

I don't think the card would see any play in competitive Yugioh, regarding the current meta, as it is so situational and consistency is all these days, but it would surely make interesting appearances in some table 500 and casual duels. In a format where everyone played the same Deck (e.g. Sky Striker) this might even be a pretty strong tech card.

I hope I was helpful and didn't trigger anyone ;)

Greets,
Messoras

[CiCi174]

On 1/30/2021 at 1:18 AM, Dokutah Jolly said:

@CiCi174 given tuners with self summon/swarm abilities is Halqifibrax food i guess your card is safe from such abuse, thus is splashable but not dangerously powerful. So, good job

To your concern, your card did work exactly like Anaconda (well also diamond dude but thats too far of comparation) so in simple terms is practically ignore anything behind colon and semi colon. I do heard that Red-Eyes Fusion and anaconda has specific interaction that somehow bypass final penalty of the fusion. But i havent reconfirming that

Awesome, I had hoped so. Thank you!

I have used decks with Dragoon/Anaconda combos in them, and from what I've seen it's that you can summon up until you copy R/E Fusion, and then you're locked out of Special Summons. So, it's pretty cool that it works that way!

On 1/30/2021 at 1:26 AM, HQCardmaker said:

Very nice card. Simple, flexable, and has a lot of use.

Thanks for the feedback!

On 1/30/2021 at 10:25 AM, Messoras said:

Um I actually like the concept of the card but the PSCT is still kinda glibberish.

"banish it, and if you do, activate that target's effect" kinda represents an impossible ruling for a Quick Effect. There are cards like "Metaverse", that place cards on the field and cards like "Predaplant Verte Anaconda", that copy the effect of other cards, but a card stating something like "activate ..." would have to start a new chain. Since your effect is an activated Quick Effect, which can be any link of an existing chain, it cannot really start a chain inside its chain link (Building chains, then resolving chains - when resolving no new chain links can be added). If it was an Ignition or Trigger Effect like "Diamond Dude" you could actually use this wording.
In this manner I think what you would want your card text to be is something like this:

I also specified the type of the Spells, as it's weird to copy effects of Equip or Field Spell cards and changed the "and if you do you that" part to "also" as the first "and if you do" already defines wether the effect successfully resolved, so the "and if it does" (become the effect) is already given. I think checking if the effect actually resolved as intended could be a little difficult. Example:
You target a "Monster Reborn", but your opponent chains the effect of "Ultimate Offering" to Summon "Vanity's Ruler", so "Ultimate Offering" would resolve first to Summon "Vanity's Ruler", then you would banish Monster Reborn but you would not be able to resolve its effect since you can no longer Special Summon under "Vanity's Ruler"'s effect. With my given psct fix you would still be locked out of using Spell Cards until the next End Phase. If you would want the drawback only to take effect if the card you are copying resolved successfully, you would have to include something like

"After this effect has been activated and successfully resolved, you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the End Phase."

But since there is not a single card in that game that has those specified conditions and I know that it would pretty much be impossible to script that, I'd rather stick to the "also" wording. I mean how I worded it you would not even get the drawback if your effect got negated.

I don't think the card would see any play in competitive Yugioh, regarding the current meta, as it is so situational and consistency is all these days, but it would surely make interesting appearances in some table 500 and casual duels. In a format where everyone played the same Deck (e.g. Sky Striker) this might even be a pretty strong tech card.

I hope I was helpful and didn't trigger anyone ;)

Greets,
Messoras

WOW! This is awesome, thank you so much! Definitely gonna update the card text with this new effect, that makes far more sense. Honestly I thought I would be locked out of using Equips/Continuous Spells anyways, but thinking back it probably would have been a better idea to have the restrictions in place for targets just because it would clear up ruling queries. I could probably get away with being allowed Ritual Spells as well, but I think it fits the flavour/fluff of the card to not target an entire ceremony and rather just a Raigeki 

Also, thanks for showing how it would actually work interacting with other cards. As cool as it would be to bypass the final restriction, turning any Normal Spell into Spell Speed 2 from the GY warrants it keeping the final clause. Plus, again, flavour wise it would be cool to have it getting "caught" and then stopped from completing the theft, but still having to pay for it. I get the restriction on usefulness in pure competitive play, but I have a question about a possible scenario if it was the case:

If you had this out, and your opponent got Anaconda out, payed the 2000 LP and sent R/E Fusion to the GY, would you be able to interrupt as a Quick Effect at that stage to banish R/E Fusion from their GY and summon out your own Dragoon before their Dragoon? Assuming that you've splashed this and Dragoon spam into the same deck? What would the interaction be there? OR is it too slow and then wouldn't be able to interrupt at that point, and you'd need a Counter Trap to cut in at that moment?

 

In any case, I'm exceedingly happy on all of the feedback and help I'm getting with this card, it's nuts! Thank you all so much!

[Dokutah]

5 hours ago, CiCi174 said:

If you had this out, and your opponent got Anaconda out, payed the 2000 LP and sent R/E Fusion to the GY, would you be able to interrupt as a Quick Effect at that stage to banish R/E Fusion from their GY and summon out your own Dragoon before their Dragoon? Assuming that you've splashed this and Dragoon spam into the same deck? What would the interaction be there? OR is it too slow and then wouldn't be able to interrupt at that point, and you'd need a Counter Trap to cut in at that moment?

 

In any case, I'm exceedingly happy on all of the feedback and help I'm getting with this card, it's nuts! Thank you all so much!

I doesn't work that way i believe. you need to actually negate anaconda effect

[Messoras]

20 hours ago, CiCi174 said:

If you had this out, and your opponent got Anaconda out, payed the 2000 LP and sent R/E Fusion to the GY, would you be able to interrupt as a Quick Effect at that stage to banish R/E Fusion from their GY and summon out your own Dragoon before their Dragoon? Assuming that you've splashed this and Dragoon spam into the same deck? What would the interaction be there? OR is it too slow and then wouldn't be able to interrupt at that point, and you'd need a Counter Trap to cut in at that moment?

Ofc you could chain your effect.

So then what happens is this:

-> CL1: Anaconda pays 2000 LP and sends Red-Eyes Fusion from Deck to GY as cost.
-> CL2: Kithira Spellthief discards a card and targets Red-Eyes Fusion in opponent's GY.
-> Resolve L2: You banish Red-Eyes Fusion, send Dark Magician and Red-Eyes B. Dragon to your GY and summon your own Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (all simultaneously by rule).
-> Resolve L1: Your opponent sends Dark Magician and Red-Eyes B. Dragon to his GY and summons his Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (simultaneously)
After that the game state is open again. However the opponent can not chain something like Floodgate Trap Hole to your Dragoon summon, since it happened before resolving Anaconda's effect and it missed the timing. On the other hand you could now chain your set Floodgate Traphole to set the opponent's Dragoon.

Since your effect is a "Quick Effect", it has Spell Speed 2. It can be chained to everything except for Counter Traps that activate on the field or in the hand.

Greets,
Messoras

[Tinkerer]

I don't want to put words in their mouth so I'll just ask.  @CiCi174, did Messoras answer your question, or were you asking whether your Dragoon could negate the summon of the opponent's Dragoon?

[CiCi174]

Awesome, I thought it would work like that, which is good because it is a good way to stall the Dragoon by bringing out your own.

@Mr Melon That did answer my question exactly! By showing me how the interaction plays out that answers the question of if the Dragoon could negate the summon. As it would come out at the same time, it would not be able to negate Anaconda, hence it could not prevent the Summon.

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys, this has given me some ideas

[Rayfield Lumina]

Well, well, looks like everyone is learning in this thread n.n. At any rate, I preferred how the effect worked initially (not talking about my suggestion at wording, which I don't have trouble in accepting had still room for improvement) but how it worked with the original wording. It's true that the "that meets its activation conditions" is an actual wording which you can find in cards such as Traptrix Rafflesia, but it's not an absolute law, as there's effects such as Dual Avatar Compact which don't include the aforementioned wording and would be more useful for the intended original effect of the card. Even is the Spell wouldn't meet the activation conditions for copying purposes, it could still be banished. On top of that, screwing Field/Equip/Continuous Spells was, imo, a bad decision taken by our arrogant friend @Messoras, who was hasty to insult other people's attempts at helping you with grammar by calling it glibberish, but didn't consider that in some cases those types of spells have "at activation" effects, and you could copy those at the very least. I don't blame you if you want to leave the wording as it is, @CiCi174, as I won't deny the new wording is better than mine (I still got a lot to learn) and quite effective as it is, but it's a pity it lose some of the flexibility and functionality it had before.

[CiCi174]

Okay, so I've been doing some tinkering with the effect wording and I've come up with a sort of "Best of Both Worlds" sort of solution? Because I also enjoy the idea of being able to point-remove Spells from the GY, but flavour-wise and rulings-wise it would be easier to only be able to ACTIVATE Normal/Quick-Play spells, so I've come up with this. CC welcomed!

Quote

(Quick Effect): You can discard 1 Spell, then target 1 Spell in either GY; banish it, and if you do and it is a Normal or Quick-Play Spell that meets its activation conditions, this effect becomes that Spell's effect when that card is activated, also you cannot activate Spell Cards or effects until the End Phase. You can only use this effect of "Kithira Spellthief" once per turn.

I think this gets me the effect I truly want, without having to add anymore clauses to the card that would make the effect cluttered (Like a "Until the End Phase" in the case of Continuous and Field, and some sort of Union-esque clause for Equips), so it allows me to banish any Spell, and then if I chose a non-continuous effect, gain the effect of that spell. Also, as a side note, how would it interact with Swords of Revealing Light? Would it send itself to the GY after activating the effect 3 turns later, like Swords? I would never target that card with this one, but in a pinch it might be worth floodgating the opponent, so the interaction here would be great to understand.

Thanks again everyone for the help! If you guys think this is the best possible wording of the effect, I'll update it 

[CiCi174]

Just as a quick update, I've now changed the effect for the card to be the one in the post above, and honestly I think I'm happy with this card now. Now I'm going to focus on expanding the archetype itself and making it a more concise idea. Thanks again to everyone who's helped with the card text and the idea, I appreciate it all!