Delete Debates

[Ember McLain]

Does anybody actually come out of debates satisfied? Seems like more of a sheet storm than anything else.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I agree that Debates has been less than amicable a lot of the time since its (re)-inception [putting it nicely], though it was made so those who donʻt care about (US) politics and/or controversial topics arenʻt forced to see them in General.

 

Removing it altogether (along with other things) has been considered as a nuclear option (last resort), however I do not believe some of you will appreciate that. Also, where would these kinds of topics end up besides going back into General?

 

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I know Black posted a thread in News regarding potential changes to the area, though if I may be frank, discussion on the topic has been rather slow lately.

 

If you have any comments, complaints, concerns, etc about them, you can bring them up there.

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Before this thread gets out of hand, warning for posts after this one to remain on-topic and not attack other members; otherwise, you will be penalized accordingly.

[Ember McLain]

Also, where would these kinds of topics end up besides going back into General?

Why allow them at all if all they are gonna do is stir trouble and bring down the overall morale of the site? It has been shown for the past year or so that the members simply can't handle opinions (not naming names here) that don't coincide with their own. Most of YCM, myself included, wouldn't care if these topics DID stay in the Debates section, however they do not. They leak into the rest of the site.

 

I'm no mod, I do not have all the information and experience you guys have, but I see no reason to allow these topics to take place if all they do is hurt the site. I would personally delete it and distribute WP to people who try to push political buttons elsewhere. Because at this point it just sounds like people yelling who's dick is bigger. It's annoying to people not involved, and causes tension between those who are.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Not ginna take any other serious thread posted ib this account seriously. That being said will listen to the response here this time

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Genuinely not sure why people think killing debates will be a blow to me. Yeh I was one of the founders of the modern debates, but I mostly post in TCG these days anyway

[Snatch Steal]

My post was deleted, but I'm still interested in removing debates for the same reason as before, which is not off topic and is related to the removal of debates

[vla1ne]

Genuinely not sure why people think killing debates will be a blow to me. Yeh I was one of the founders of the modern debates, but I mostly post in TCG these days anyway

it's not an attack on you just yet. let's try not to go down that route.

 

that said, debates is where people discuss topics that people wouldn't want to see in general. if i recall correctly, people were whining about the kinds of topics we have in debates well before we had a debates section. in fact, i can recall a couple times where people wanted, and had threads shut down in general because they were too explosive. so, instead, we made debates, to keep those threads locked up. many of you likely don't remember, but well before debates was reborn, general topics that exploded had far more fallout than they do now. a status or two ruining your happy day is nothing really. 

 

gotta ask, who in debates wants debates gone though? because it seems to me like only the people outside of debates ever have an issue with debates. the nature of the topics coming up there guarantees some salt will be spilled, so i don't see why people not liking debates is reason at all for it to be removed. the people there are not forced to be there, the people not there simply don't wish to be there. sounds normal to me.

 

and before anybody says it, if your reason for leaving debates, or wanting it brought down is that it brings the morale down, stay out of it and enjoy the sweet release of not being in debates section. parts that leak out are one thing, but even at the worst, that's usually relegated to a status or two. it's not enough reason. and if it looks like a shitstorm, that's because that's what it is. multiple opinions placed against each other, some folding, some strengthening, some agreeing, much opposing. that's why debates was made. now if you want debates to fall back into general, fine, but at that point, just remember, that's one less wall between you and debates.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

it's not an attack on you just yet. let's try not to go down that route.

 

that said, debates is where people discuss topics that people wouldn't want to see in general. if i recall correctly, people were whining about the kinds of topics we have in debates well before we had a debates section. in fact, i can recall a couple times where people wanted, and had threads shut down in general because they were too explosive. so, instead, we made debates, to keep those threads locked up. many of you likely don't remember, but well before debates was reborn, general topics that exploded had far more fallout than they do now. a status or two ruining your happy day is nothing really. 

 

gotta ask, who in debates wants debates gone though? because it seems to me like only the people outside of debates ever have an issue with debates. the nature of the topics coming up there guarantees some salt will be spilled, so i don't see why people not liking debates is reason at all for it to be removed. the people there are not forced to be there, the people not there simply don't wish to be there. sounds normal to me.

 

and before anybody says it, if your reason for leaving debates, or wanting it brought down is that it brings the morale down, stay out of it and enjoy the sweet release of not being in debates section. parts that leak out are one thing, but even at the worst, that's usually relegated to a status or two. it's not enough reason. and if it looks like a shitstorm, that's because that's what it is. multiple opinions placed against each other, some folding, some strengthening, some agreeing, much opposing. that's why debates was made. now if you want debates to fall back into general, fine, but at that point, just remember, that's one less wall between you and debates.

Nah, the mods killed a post by either proto or snatch saying they support killing debates cuz "it'd take everything precious to me away"

 

Go ahead is all I'm saying. I don't think it's a smart idea, but it's certainly not the right way to "hurt" me

[Proto]

If people didn't post political stuff elsewhere (hell modern debate threads pretty much spawned from threads posted in general) I straight up wouldn't be in debates at all honestly. But I think deleting debates would just lead to worse enforcements regarding political things.

 

Just start actually punishing people for provocating in other sections and debate works. I don't feel personally harmed or hurt by anything in debates and it generates a large amount of activity.

 

tl;dr: debates are a necessary evil, have mods punish people for provocating outside of it if that's the real problem.

[vla1ne]

Nah, the mods killed a post by either proto or snatch saying they support killing debates cuz "it'd take everything precious to me away"

 

Go ahead is all I'm saying. 

Oh, well that makes more sense. Though i don't get why that's a reason.

[Proto]

Nah, the mods killed a post by either proto or snatch saying they support killing debates cuz "it'd take everything precious to me away"

 

Go ahead is all I'm saying.

 

I said nothing of the sort. Try not to lie about me.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I said nothing of the sort. Try not to lie about me.

"either proto or snatch"

 

Not lying, it was early morning and I don't remember clearly. Mods can comment if they wish. 

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Yeah, Proto didn't make a comment in this thread other than the post he just made.

 

But that aside, since the matter did come up in the other discussion regarding changes, do you all want Debates to be its own separate area outside of General or keep it as-is?

[Ember McLain]

Not ginna take any other serious thread posted ib this account seriously. That being said will listen to the response here this time

Why not? If anything this is the perfect way to post suggestions since people cant take bias against any statment I make. Well, considering they haven't figured me out.

[Yui]

Debates isn't the problem. The people in Debates are. Destroying the one floodgate between that pit of toxicity and the rest of the site will simply cause everything to spill over instead of some stuff. If the atmosphere radiating from the section is the issue, then what should be done by the mod team is a thorough look-over at the regulars (good thing Cow's been watching the place), then a plan of some sort to get whoever the source is to stop. Nuking Debates and banning the topics that belong there outright is a viable last resort, but should only happen after all other possible options have been exhausted.

[vla1ne]

 

But that aside, since the matter did come up in the other discussion regarding changes, do you all want Debates to be its own separate area outside of General or keep it as-is?

Where it is now looks fine to me. People who don't like it don't have to see it every day, people who participate still know where it is. Changing the location wouldn't do anything for those of us who participate, while it would likely further annoy those who don't. 

[Proto]

Again, it all goes back to actually punishing people who post political or inflammatory subjects outside of debate.

[Ember McLain]

Again, it all goes back to actually punishing people who post political or inflammatory subjects outside of debate.

They obviously can't do that though. They're like little kids with no self control.

 

If your child keeps playing ball in the house despite you telling them to keep it outside, you take away the ball.

[Proto]

@@Ember McLain

 

That's a horrible, horrible analogy because it implies that only one person uses the ball (or, only one person uses debates, which is preposterous). There are plenty of people who are decent enough to keep debates in debates such as Roxas or Vla1ne.

 

What you're suggesting is the equivalent of if there's a basketball game and you throw the basketball in the tree because a couple of kids on the ten person team keep throwing it out of bounds. Now if any of the other kids who were just minding their own business want to play with it they have to try to climb the tree (which is out of bounds anyways). 

The ideal option is to just ban the kid from the team and maybe suspend him from the school.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Theoretical solution. Which will be intentionally extreme to get a feel.

 

Every Debates post outside of Debates gets a verbal warning for first offense and say....2 or 3 warning points depending on severity lasting 2 weeks for every other offense.

This would be stuff like a political status or starting an argument related to a Debate topic in Misc.

[Tinkerer]

I mean, I don't care much either way but... can't there just be some kind of way to take Debates off-site or something?  It wouldn't be deleting it because I do feel it is important to have.  Instead, someone clicks on the debates section and they get ported to a similar looking site but isn't actually connected to YCM (as in, the threads there don't show up under recent topics here, etc.).

 

In terms of how things would work from there: political and divisive topics on YCM would be heavily moderated (as in, they have to stay under extremely strict guidelines), BUT in exchange, the sub-site would be much more lax in terms of moderation.  It could be beneficial in keeping this site lighter while it gives those people who actively post in debates a greater amount of freedom in a different form (which, from what I understand, is a concern?)

 

Regarding statuses (I mean, I don't use 'em much so I don't exactly know how they're being used to promote debates), they could be used to give the topic title of said debate and a link to take you to the debate thread itself.  Rather than putting your own opinion in your status, you leave your own thoughts within the thread and simply promote the thread itself so people can see it and - if they're interested - respond to it (in-thread of course, not in the status).

 

 

I don't have any skin in this game one way or the other, but deleting Debates entirely doesn't seem like the right direction, especially if it doesn't stop the influx of controversial topics.

[Flame Dragon]

Honestly the more I think about the issue with debates the more I feel the section does need a dedicated moderator. Someone willing to remain impartial and willing to deal with the types of toxicity that the section can generate. I know we've done away with section moderators but this is certainly an area where it is worth reconsidering that stance. Even if we can't find someone who would be a good fit for the section we really do need to hammer out a rules system that kills any toxicity before it has had any chance to really generate. The most obvious being harsh warnings and temporary bans from posting in the section.

[vla1ne]

I mean, I don't care much either way but... can't there just be some kind of way to take Debates off-site or something?  It wouldn't be deleting it because I do feel it is important to have.  Instead, someone clicks on the debates section and they get ported to a similar looking site but isn't actually connected to YCM (as in, the threads there don't show up under recent topics here, etc.).

 

In terms of how things would work from there: political and divisive topics on YCM would be heavily moderated (as in, they have to stay under extremely strict guidelines), BUT in exchange, the sub-site would be much more lax in terms of moderation.  It could be beneficial in keeping this site lighter while it gives those people who actively post in debates a greater amount of freedom in a different form (which, from what I understand, is a concern?)

 

Regarding statuses (I mean, I don't use 'em much so I don't exactly know how they're being used to promote debates), they could be used to give the topic title of said debate and a link to take you to the debate thread itself.  Rather than putting your own opinion in your status, you leave your own thoughts within the thread and simply promote the thread itself so people can see it and - if they're interested - respond to it (in-thread of course, not in the status).

 

 

I don't have any skin in this game one way or the other, but deleting Debates entirely doesn't seem like the right direction, especially if it doesn't stop the influx of controversial topics.

The main thing i see here is that people simply don't want the debates themselves leaking out of debates. Hiding it from the recent topics area is rather needless imo, Recent topics only tells you where it is, what's the topic, and about the first 5-10 words in the post. Easily ignored, and not really detrimental to the site overall. The thing i see the most, and agree with, is that debates (the topics themselves) should stay far away from the status bar. There's no reason to have arguments about debate topics there, as that isn't the debates forum. Maybe light jokes and such get a pass, but not topic extractions.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I mean, I don't care much either way but... can't there just be some kind of way to take Debates off-site or something?  It wouldn't be deleting it because I do feel it is important to have.  Instead, someone clicks on the debates section and they get ported to a similar looking site but isn't actually connected to YCM (as in, the threads there don't show up under recent topics here, etc.).

In terms of how things would work from there: political and divisive topics on YCM would be heavily moderated (as in, they have to stay under extremely strict guidelines), BUT in exchange, the sub-site would be much more lax in terms of moderation. 

 

Would require linking Debates elsewhere, and that's more work for the staff members to set up and moderate. Easier option is just crack down on Debates stuff outside its intended area here. However, it requires that the team actually do something about keeping Debates stuff where it should be.

 

It could be beneficial in keeping this site lighter while it gives those people who actively post in debates a greater amount of freedom in a different form (which, from what I understand, is a concern?)

 

The "freedom" thing is tied to members feeling that our presence doesn't allow for actual debates (i.e. see complaints in other thread). Or moreso, the team doesn't go into / post in the section so we know nothing about how things turn out in the section and/or butt in when it's not called for.

 

Basically, let Debates users have their discussions and whatnot without the staff interfering.

 

Debates has a set of rules in place for the purpose of maintaining civility when having debates; just follow them, don't engage in personal attacks/name calling and you won't have the team coming in to scold people.

 

Regarding statuses (I mean, I don't use 'em much so I don't exactly know how they're being used to promote debates), they could be used to give the topic title of said debate and a link to take you to the debate thread itself.  Rather than putting your own opinion in your status, you leave your own thoughts within the thread and simply promote the thread itself so people can see it and - if they're interested - respond to it (in-thread of course, not in the status).

 

Mostly bringing up topics that should be in Debates, given nature.

 

Responses are in bold/italics.

 

Honestly the more I think about the issue with debates the more I feel the section does need a dedicated moderator. Someone willing to remain impartial and willing to deal with the types of toxicity that the section can generate. I know we've done away with section moderators but this is certainly an area where it is worth reconsidering that stance. Even if we can't find someone who would be a good fit for the section we really do need to hammer out a rules system that kills any toxicity before it has had any chance to really generate. The most obvious being harsh warnings and temporary bans from posting in the section.

 

I would probably suggest you weigh in on the proposal that was mentioned in the mod area then, as a sample warn scale has been made. Look it over and see if it requires work or it's suitable for the area.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Does anybody actually come out of debates satisfied? Seems like more of a sheet storm than anything else.

I had a lot of fun debating myself, but that's about it.