ITT: A TCG banlist

[Blake]

time to clean up the list a bit, mostly things moving upward, not down

 

Those moving down are marked with an asterisk (*).

 

Newly Banned:

Gouki Rematch*

 

Newly Limited:

Armageddon Knight*

Astrograph Sorcerer

Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos

Double Iris Magician

Performage Plushfire

Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders

Shurit, Strategist of the Nekroz

True King Lithosagym, the Disaster

Heavymetalfoes Electrumite*

Harpie's Feather Duster

Pot of Avarice

Sky Striker Mech - Hornet Drones*

 

Newly Semi-Limited:

Zoodiac Ratpier

Nekroz of Brionac

Nekroz of Unicore

Reinforcement of the Army

Upstart Goblin

 

Newly Unlimited:

Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End

Genex Ally Birdman

Performage Damage Juggler

Performapal Skullcrobat Joker

Tribe-Infecting Virus

El-Shaddoll Construct

Elder Entity Norden

Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier

Daigusto Emeral

Burial from a Different Dimension

Ring of Destruction

 

feel free to ask why/why not, don't feel like waxing for hours

 

if something seems like i didn't move it far enough up, assume i'm erring on the side of caution

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I would personally move Drancia to 3 before touching Rat, rat is gonna be dumb w/ link decks

[Blake]

I would personally move Drancia to 3 before touching Rat, rat is gonna be dumb w/ link decks

generic engines are a good thing

 

2 rat is safe enough to test how far it goes, but it requires a lot of ED devotion

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

Harpie's Feather Duster and Upstart can go to three but otherwise this is what a proper banlist looks like you dweebs

[Yui]

>1 Shurit

>2 Brios
>2 RotAs
>2 Upstarts
I like this list. I like it a lot.

 

Why the Gouki Rematch ban though? I don't quite understand that or the unbanning of Redox and Litho. Also curious about Emeral jumping from 0 to 3 on this list.

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

>1 Shurit

>2 Brios

>2 RotAs

>2 Upstarts

I like this list. I like it a lot.

 

Why the Gouki Rematch ban though? I don't quite understand that or the unbanning of Redox and Litho. Also curious about Emeral jumping from 0 to 3 on this list.

 

Gouki Rematch is the issue for Gouki's, not Firewall Dragon. Emeral should have always been at 3. He went to 0 because of the FTK with Grandsoil and Firewall. They banned both Grandsoil AND Emeral on the banlist. They only had to hit one or the other and it would have been dead. Grandsoil got errata'd so Emeral can come back.

[Blake]

>1 Shurit

>2 Brios

>2 RotAs

>2 Upstarts

I like this list. I like it a lot.

 

Why the Gouki Rematch ban though? I don't quite understand that or the unbanning of Redox and Litho. Also curious about Emeral jumping from 0 to 3 on this list.

 

Other than what Krow covered...

 

I believe Redox and Blaster are fair power cards. I’m iffy on tempest, and certain that Tidal is nuts, but I feel like the other two will only give to the game if returned to it.

 

Lithosagym is a fair card. It got hit due to interactions with funking Dinos, and it was not responsible for the bull that is Miscellaneousaurus, Oviraptor, and UltiConductor.

 

may consider limiting ovi and putting litho to 3, but I’m not actually koomy so shrug

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

generic engines are a good thing

 

2 rat is safe enough to test how far it goes, but it requires a lot of ED devotion

You're banning gouki and creating a new link spam engine with barrage legal, if you want to help zoos, move dranc to 1 and then three. Also plushfire? Black it doesn't even have an OPT

Also Tempest is safer than Redox. Think about it, Tempest is locked into supporting Dragons, Redox is a generic reborn that can keep returning to hand. Blaster is fair. Just unban blaster and keep the rest banned.

 

Why not super poly as a good board breaker?

[Blake]

You're banning gouki and creating a new link spam engine with barrage legal, if you want to help zoos, move dranc to 1 and then three. Also plushfire? Black it doesn't even have an OPT

Also Tempest is safer than Redox. Think about it, Tempest is locked into supporting Dragons, Redox is a generic reborn that can keep returning to hand. Blaster is fair. Just unban blaster and keep the rest banned.

 

Why not super poly as a good board breaker?

Zoos require a ton of ED devotion to even begin making links, else it's just a 2 material engine, which is pretty much done better by Sky Striker, even with only 1 Drones, due to better generic cards. Gouki are not a truly generic engine that enhances the game, they're a singular decktype that leads to unfair combos with Firewall and/or Knightmare.

 

Plushfire not having a OPT doesn't mean it's broken. It has a limited pool to grab from, requires lots of ED devotion, and non-Pendulum Level 4 Spellcasters aren't exactly the best.

 

Tempest is bigger and fits into specific decks better than Redox, who is a generic goodstuff that offers less in the way of beating in exchange for a strong effect, which is fine. "Keep returnign to hand" is a terrible argument when it takes multiple turns for that to matter.

 

i mean, i don't really see why we need super poly when we can have raigeki offer the same threat but more fairly and more generically

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Zoos require a ton of ED devotion to even begin making links, else it's just a 2 material engine, which is pretty much done better by Sky Striker, even with only 1 Drones, due to better generic cards. Gouki are not a truly generic engine that enhances the game, they're a singular decktype that leads to unfair combos with Firewall and/or Knightmare.

 

Plushfire not having a OPT doesn't mean it's broken. It has a limited pool to grab from, requires lots of ED devotion, and non-Pendulum Level 4 Spellcasters aren't exactly the best.

 

Tempest is bigger and fits into specific decks better than Redox, who is a generic goodstuff that offers less in the way of beating in exchange for a strong effect, which is fine. "Keep returnign to hand" is a terrible argument when it takes multiple turns for that to matter.

 

i mean, i don't really see why we need super poly when we can have raigeki offer the same threat but more fairly and more generically

Raigeki is less reliable with a lot of things floating off destruction or being immune to it

 

Super poly is more costly, it requires a discard and a valuable ED spot, but on the other hand it selectively breaks annoying boards with cards like Norden and Mudrakon with a certainty that Raigeki cannot get. 

 

Raigeki fucks over unintended targets, and doesn't do a good job against actually oppressive sheet

 

---

 

I'd put Maxx back at three, but that's taboo in TCG I suppose

[Blake]

Yes, Raigeki is less reliable. But the important part is that it is still a threat that must be accounted for. The threat factor of cards like that is more valuable than them actually being played.

 

It still hits most oppressive things, with exceptions like Extra Link boards with Knightmare, but that's fine. There shouldn't be perfect answers to any given situation.

 

maxx is an unfair card, i'm not having this debate for the umpteenth time

[Thomas★Zero]

I do have to say that 2 ROTA and 2 Upstart are interesting choices for this list. Specially since with ROTA it gives a Deck like HERO's 3 E-Call, 2 ROTA and 3 A HERO Lives.

 

Seeing one of the Dragon Rulers coming back is a interesting touch to this list though I understand that you didn't bring all four back as that would be nuts for Rank 7/Link Summoning Shenanigans.

[Darj]

List looks mostly fine to me. I would keep Emeral at 1 instead because IIRC it's possible to loop 2 copies for FTK/OTKs. At 1 it should be more difficult to set up such loops while still making it accessible for most decks.

I'm unsure about Upstart, but I can't pinpoint why. It offers a smaller deck and more consistency for decks that want it... but only by -1 deck space. Would that have much of an impact? I am under the impression that nowadays dominant decks struggle to stick with 39~40 cards, so going for a 38-card decks may be even more challenging. AFAIK Upstart is mostly played in Sky Strikers, and as the leading deck I would think it's the deck to support the least. Granted, you are already hitting Drones, but still, cannot but feel that the +1 Upstart is compensating the -2 Drones, if only by a bit from a consistency standpoint. Not to mention more Upstarts equals to more Spells in the GY to make the extra effects of Sky Striker Spells live.

I'm wary of Norden. Even under Link/MR4 rules, it's still an easy 2-material ED monster out from an Instant Fusion. Also, pretty sure there is a risk of looping if it's allowed at 3 due to its lack of hard OPT. Like Emeral, at the very least I would keep it Limited.

On a similar note, I wouldn't move Trishula to higher than 1 because 2+ more copies are usually ran in decks with enough swarming and/or looping power to kill hands early game, even in opening turns, and AFAIK FTKs like that are frowned upon. Decks that don't rely on such strategies rarely run more than 1 anyway.

[Mr. Best Male 2008]

I do have to say that 2 ROTA and 2 Upstart are interesting choices for this list. Specially since with ROTA it gives a Deck like HERO's 3 E-Call, 2 ROTA and 3 A HERO Lives.Seeing one of the Dragon Rulers coming back is a interesting touch to this list though I understand that you didn't bring all four back as that would be nuts for Rank 7/Link Summoning Shenanigans.

Just think. Once upon a time Heroes had 3 RotA, 3 E Call, 3 Hero Lives and still sucked.

[Blake]

List looks mostly fine to me. I would keep Emeral at 1 instead because IIRC it's possible to loop 2 copies for FTK/OTKs. At 1 it should be more difficult to set up such loops while still making it accessible for most decks.

No. Emeral was never the problem. Any loops involving it involve cards that do the actual broken part, it just happens to be a solid card. It should have never been hit.

 

I'm unsure about Upstart, but I can't pinpoint why. It offers a smaller deck and more consistency for decks that want it... but only by -1 deck space. Would that have much of an impact? I am under the impression that nowadays dominant decks struggle to stick with 39~40 cards, so going for a 38-card decks may be even more challenging. AFAIK Upstart is mostly played in Sky Strikers, and as the leading deck I would think it's the deck to support the least. Granted, you are already hitting Drones, but still, cannot but feel that the +1 Upstart is compensating the -2 Drones, if only by a bit from a consistency standpoint. Not to mention more Upstarts equals to more Spells in the GY to make the extra effects of Sky Striker Spells live.

How is an extra Upstart, a card that gives you a random card from the top of your deck, comparable to 2 lost copies of Drones? That doesn't make any sense.

 

There's also the fact that Upstart is entirely generic, which means that, even if SS uses it (not that 'pure' SS is something we need to hit, hence hitting Drones to hit the engine), that doesn't mean every other deck should suffer because one deck happens to use it somewhat better.

 

I'm wary of Norden. Even under Link/MR4 rules, it's still an easy 2-material ED monster out from an Instant Fusion. Also, pretty sure there is a risk of looping if it's allowed at 3 due to its lack of hard OPT. Like Emeral, at the very least I would keep it Limited.

I mean, who cares? Instant Fusion is a hard OPT spell that's fairly difficult to search. Norden is a glorified revival card at that point, and, while good, he still negates what he revives which means he's worse than cards like Reborn despite the +1 body. This card was honestly fair when it was banned, and it shouldn't be on the list anymore.

 

On a similar note, I wouldn't move Trishula to higher than 1 because 2+ more copies are usually ran in decks with enough swarming and/or looping power to kill hands early game, even in opening turns, and AFAIK FTKs like that are frowned upon. Decks that don't rely on such strategies rarely run more than 1 anyway.

i mean, why not move it up? The loop trishula decks don't exist/are inferior to actually relevant decks that do similar, but the option of running another copy or two is fine. Card can exist in multiples, its loops are archaic overkill, and many can be done with a single copy. If people want style points with a bad deck, let them.

[Darj]

How is an extra Upstart, a card that gives you a random card from the top of your deck, comparable to 2 lost copies of Drones? That doesn't make any sense.

 

There's also the fact that Upstart is entirely generic, which means that, even if SS uses it (not that 'pure' SS is something we need to hit, hence hitting Drones to hit the engine), that doesn't mean every other deck should suffer because one deck happens to use it somewhat better.

 

A silly reasoning from me, admittedly. My first thoughts were more on the lines of "we took 2 Drones out from you, but here have an Upstart so you can thin your deck by 1 and get that single Drone slightly more easily". Like delivering a hit on Sky Strikers, then softening it. I never compared them directly but +1 Upstart is still something. Not to mention that Engage is also a factor for getting Drones. But then, the same can be said about every card: +1 Upstart makes them a bit easier to grab by thinning the deck, but probably by 1% or less. Still, when I see it this way, my argument truly falls apart xD

In my defense, if I saw Upstart was more often in other relevant decks, then I would understand the move a bit more, but AFAIK only Sky Strikers are running it, which makes me see it as more of a boon for them than other decks. In fact, I just took a glance at the top decks from the recent Worlds and I don't see Upstart in any of them, so IDK which decks is the +1 Upstart is supposed to boost. Unless you argue that moving it to 2 will encourage players to run 2 but... would they truly bother if they don't run the single Upstart already?

As a side question: What about moving it to 3 instead?

 

You are right regarding the rest. Decks that loop Emeral, Norden, Trishula, etc. have other cards that surely are the root of the problem and ideally should be addressed first. Although the stance on Emeral reminds me of Lavalval Chain and the argument of "hitting the enabler vs. the enabled" all over again, but Emeral certainly is not Chain so most likely that argument wouldn't hold in its case. Besides, if Emeral is Summoned repeatedly and its mini-avarice effects is being looped, most likely a more problematic card is involved.

 

[Blake]

Upstart could go to three. The "Sky Striker!!!!" logic is exactly why I decided to be 'cautious' and put it to 2, but the card should honestly exist at 3. Giving your opponent a +3000 LP lead in exchange for having a deck with fewer bad cards is pretty fair as the game has grown, and it does have additional synergy.

 

Relevant decks running a card has nothing to do with whether or not a card should move up. Relevant decks might play Book of Moon, but that doesn't mean it should stay at 1, per se.

[Darj]

Relevant decks running a card has nothing to do with whether or not a card should move up. Relevant decks might play Book of Moon, but that doesn't mean it should stay at 1, per se.

 

Oh, right. I felt a bit dumb for not considering this. On a similar note, it could very well be the case that Upstart sees more play if it's bumped to 2~3.

[Krawler]

Oh, right. I felt a bit dumb for not considering this. On a similar note, it could very well be the case that Upstart sees more play if it's bumped to 2~3.

Upstart isn't broken is it. There is a cost so it isn't dangerously powerful so it should be at 2 at the least

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

>Stratos banned

[Blake]

>Stratos banned

 

memes lol

 

it could come back but I actually enjoy the meme enough to leave it as-is

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

memes lol

 

it could come back but I actually enjoy the meme enough to leave it as-is

That's not very good list making, esp when you're trying to clean sheet up

 

Wind Up Boat and Super Rejuv also come to mind

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Lack of yata seems weird

[Blake]

That's not very good list making, esp when you're trying to clean sheet up

 

Wind Up Boat and Super Rejuv also come to mind

I am allowed preference Lol

 

boat maybe, rejuv idk

 

Lack of yata seems weird

 

as much as people say pulling it off won’t matter (and they’re right) it genuinelyy adds nothing to the game, positive or negative, by coming back, so I would rather leave it

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I am allowed preference Lol

 

boat maybe, rejuv idk

 

 

as much as people say pulling it off won’t matter (and they’re right) it genuinelyy adds nothing to the game, positive or negative, by coming back, so I would rather leave it

I'm just saying, you could pull a good 30 more cards of the list safely