[Debates] U.S. Black Community

[mido9]

Simple thread, do you think the U.S. Black community has problems, or issues, or problems, or are targeted, etc or are fine?

I think they're mostly fine, other than how it's completely broken how 70% of black children grow up without a father, which is really bad.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

More black children are aborted in NY than born. The black population in the US has a pretty bleak future at the rate things are going

The numbers for black women in NYC starkly contrasted with women in other racial and ethnic categories. In 2013, births far surpassed abortions for white, Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islander women. Hispanic women accounted for the second-most abortions in the city with 21,555, but they also had 35,581 live births. Asian women had both the fewest abortions and fewest births, while white women accounted for the most births overall and second-fewest abortions.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Simple thread, do you think the U.S. Black community has problems, or issues, or problems, or are targeted, etc or are fine?

All of the above.

 

More black children are aborted in NY than born. The black population in the US has a pretty bleak future at the rate things are going

The numbers for black women in NYC starkly contrasted with women in other racial and ethnic categories. In 2013, births far surpassed abortions for white, Hispanic and Asian/Pacific Islander women. Hispanic women accounted for the second-most abortions in the city with 21,555, but they also had 35,581 live births. Asian women had both the fewest abortions and fewest births, while white women accounted for the most births overall and second-fewest abortions.

(except this)

 

A lot of the issues in the black community are issues endemic to any social group that fancies themselves as having been oppressed. It's certainly not an easy thing to discuss at any rate, especially in such broad strokes. 

 

"Does the community have problems?"

 

Well yeah, every community has problems. I'm going to need much more specific things to talk about before we get anywhere.

[vla1ne]

Simple thread, do you think the U.S. Black community has problems, or issues, or problems, or are targeted, etc or are fine?

 

I think they're mostly fine, other than how it's completely broken how 70% of black children grow up without a father, which is really bad.

gonna have to agree with bern here, you gotta put a bit more forth if you want to foster a strong discussion, you, one of the gods of stat posting on this sight, rreally shouldn't be missing the details, but moving past that for some substance:

 

yes, the black community has problems. and many of them are indeed the same as other communities,but i'll put a few of the more prolific ones up front for now: there will be little if any proper capitalization. too tired for that tonight. and before it's even said, no, not every single person has these problems, but collectively, they are very present within many of the communities you see and hear about (and in some cases live in).

 

1) The dissonance between what is desired, and what is worked towards, within the community: this is the largest problem, summarized into the smallest sentence possible. looking into the black community, you see a lot of people complaining about the poverty, the crime, and whatever else have you, but at the same time, you see them either actively working on the side of what are essentially the negatives of the community. the drug dealers, who want safety for their kids, yet deal drugs, which is a guaranteed way to bring crime and poverty into their community. the people who idolize and advertise criminal ways, yet complain that the hood has a terrible image. the people who claim the man is out to take them down, but wait on the first of every month for the government handouts, and last for this list, the people who reject proper mannerisms, and ridicule those who embrace them, which is, in effect helping to destroy the chances that youths have at making it up the ladder in the world outside the hood.

 

2) the destruction of the core home: you see and hear about it all the time; single motherhood in the black community is the highest percentage wise, of any other racial group. yet you don't see efforts being made to correct this. i have stories for days about women i know who have 3-4 kids at home, and have any number of different names on their list of prospective fathers. what kind of image does this give the children? couple with the insane amount of women who have kids in the black community, just to collect paycheck, you have an incredibly simple, but highly effective recipe for a destroyed home. i could go on far longer with that, but the point stands.

 

3)the absolutely abysmal relationship that the hood has with the police: in just about any black neighborhood, the police, and the government in general, is an entity that is not to be cooperated with, and those who attempt to work within the system, are often ridiculed, or considered worthy of less respect. be it workplace, or everyday life, i can't tell you how many black women i know who think nothing of telling people that their baby daddy is in prison right now, but he'll be out soon. the hood mentality is not health for a family unit, nor is it something you want to have your children growing up around. there are doubtless injustices, i can find those wit a bit of looking, but it's gotten to the point where even events that make complete sense in context, are dragged out of context, and strung up on the wall for incensed blacks to scream "racist!" at. rioting over what are literally documented criminals being arrested or killed while in the act of committing crimes. the relationship has to change, police are not the enemy, there are corrupt ones, but we'd get better (and more permanent) results working up through the system, than destroying everything that others have worked hard to build upon. the tools exist to repair the relationship, and to mitigate further damages using them, is the hallmark of an intelligent community. yet we seem to be allergic to that form of change in the media (another point for another time), and instead all we see are those who provoke the system and increase the damages.

 

I've got more on my head, it's too late tonight for an essay, and this is still the first page of the discussion.

[mido9]

gonna have to agree with bern here, you gotta put a bit more forth if you want to foster a strong discussion

I can't do that when I think everything is fine and good and well except for this and that.

[Dad]

I can't do that when I think everything is fine and good and well except for this and that.

 

I would think that experience in the black community would help to create more discussion.

[mido9]

I would think that experience in the black community would help to create more discussion.

Hey, it's a debates thread, I don't gotta provide counterpoints to myself, other people do

[Dad]

Hey, it's a debates thread, I don't gotta provide counterpoints to myself, other people do

 

You provided one stat, no sources, no materials, and half-assed the OP.  The have nothing to counter.

[mido9]

You provided one stat, no sources, no materials, and half-assed the OP.  The have nothing to counter.

Alright, sure, sorry. According to the US NVSS (skip to page 73) about ~70% of black children from 1995 to now were born out of wedlock... and that's really bad because it's that have broken homes is heavily more correlated with poverty and with criminality, drug use, etc because it's difficult to manage a home and also work a job or etc. Also it snowballs a lot since doing crime can get you a record, which means it becomes even harder to get a job, so you get poorer, so you might do more crime, etc.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

gonna have to agree with bern here, you gotta put a bit more forth if you want to foster a strong discussion, you, one of the gods of stat posting on this sight, rreally shouldn't be missing the details, but moving past that for some substance:

 

yes, the black community has problems. and many of them are indeed the same as other communities,but i'll put a few of the more prolific ones up front for now: there will be little if any proper capitalization. too tired for that tonight. and before it's even said, no, not every single person has these problems, but collectively, they are very present within many of the communities you see and hear about (and in some cases live in).

 

1) The dissonance between what is desired, and what is worked towards, within the community: this is the largest problem, summarized into the smallest sentence possible. looking into the black community, you see a lot of people complaining about the poverty, the crime, and whatever else have you, but at the same time, you see them either actively working on the side of what are essentially the negatives of the community. the drug dealers, who want safety for their kids, yet deal drugs, which is a guaranteed way to bring crime and poverty into their community. the people who idolize and advertise criminal ways, yet complain that the hood has a terrible image. the people who claim the man is out to take them down, but wait on the first of every month for the government handouts, and last for this list, the people who reject proper mannerisms, and ridicule those who embrace them, which is, in effect helping to destroy the chances that youths have at making it up the ladder in the world outside the hood.

 

2) the destruction of the core home: you see and hear about it all the time; single motherhood in the black community is the highest percentage wise, of any other racial group. yet you don't see efforts being made to correct this. i have stories for days about women i know who have 3-4 kids at home, and have any number of different names on their list of prospective fathers. what kind of image does this give the children? couple with the insane amount of women who have kids in the black community, just to collect paycheck, you have an incredibly simple, but highly effective recipe for a destroyed home. i could go on far longer with that, but the point stands.

 

3)the absolutely abysmal relationship that the hood has with the police: in just about any black neighborhood, the police, and the government in general, is an entity that is not to be cooperated with, and those who attempt to work within the system, are often ridiculed, or considered worthy of less respect. be it workplace, or everyday life, i can't tell you how many black women i know who think nothing of telling people that their baby daddy is in prison right now, but he'll be out soon. the hood mentality is not health for a family unit, nor is it something you want to have your children growing up around. there are doubtless injustices, i can find those wit a bit of looking, but it's gotten to the point where even events that make complete sense in context, are dragged out of context, and strung up on the wall for incensed blacks to scream "racist!" at. rioting over what are literally documented criminals being arrested or killed while in the act of committing crimes. the relationship has to change, police are not the enemy, there are corrupt ones, but we'd get better (and more permanent) results working up through the system, than destroying everything that others have worked hard to build upon. the tools exist to repair the relationship, and to mitigate further damages using them, is the hallmark of an intelligent community. yet we seem to be allergic to that form of change in the media (another point for another time), and instead all we see are those who provoke the system and increase the damages.

 

I've got more on my head, it's too late tonight for an essay, and this is still the first page of the discussion.

Does the animosity mentioned in the last part carry over to Black Officers too? Or are they not distrusted as much

[vla1ne]

Does the animosity mentioned in the last part carry over to Black Officers too? Or are they not distrusted as much

moreso in the worse black neighborhoods, less so in the better off black neighborhoods. from what i've seen of the stats and videos at least.

[spoiler=A small video to point some things out, as far as the police go]

 

 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

moreso in the worse black neighborhoods, less so in the better off black neighborhoods. from what i've seen of the stats and videos at least.

[spoiler=A small video to point some things out, as far as the police go]

 

 

Just to clarify, bad black neighborhoods really hate black officers

 

and better off black neighborhoods react better to them than white officers?

[vla1ne]

Just to clarify, bad black neighborhoods really hate black officers

 

and better off black neighborhoods react better to them than white officers?

to the first, yes, mostly because the monolith mentality is deeper there. black cops combine 1 and 3 into a bundle, while adding another of the examples that i didn't put in earlir, that being the monolith mentality. they are the cops that black people hate. then you get the  mixing of arresting of those whose dissonances lean towards the illegal, while not subscribing to the monolith mentality,  so when they see black cops, it contradicts much of their standard mental image. which, in most cases, is met with revulsion. this isn't always the case, but it is the norm in the worse off neighborhoods.

 

to the second, no. they're just cops in those neighborhoods. 

[VCR_CAT]

So, I mostly just see a lot of stats quoted with vague conclusions that sound mostly like "see, it's because they are black and have black culture is why things are like this" (though I could be wrong? Nobody here is particularly clear on what conclusion they are trying to draw).

 

Has anyone spent the time to really look into these statistics and figure out what might be behind it? Statistics alone don't make a particularly strong base, it might show correlation but you know how the saying goes: Correlation does not imply causation. Has anyone really looked into it? Been to those neighborhoods? Spoken with these people? Spoken or read from someone who has spent that time?

 

And finally, what is the conclusion you're all trying to draw? That black people are inherently criminal or what?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Sources: US Government; US Census Bureau; National Center for Health Statistics

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

 

Sources: US Government; US Census Bureau; National Center for Health Statistics

And what is your point? What are you trying to say with this graph, exactly? And how does it directly relate to the topic? I'd like a bit more than just a picture for threads like this.

[Makο]

If I may take a stab at what Winter was attempting to portray with that image, it is that it acts as proof of what vla1ne had mentioned earlier, in that the amount of black woman who were unmarried and had many children out of wedlock contributed to many of the aforementioned problems with the black community.

 

But considering this chart is about the "death of marriage" as a whole throughout the United States, and not just in the topic community, it might not actually be relevant? Circumstantial at best.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And what is your point? What are you trying to say with this graph, exactly? And how does it directly relate to the topic? I'd like a bit more than just a picture for threads like this.

My apologies, I meant to quote Mido's post at the top of the thread. The death of Marriage is rampant in the US. Combined that with a rampant abortion rate in the black community, and the black population has stagnated with ever increasing amounts being born in broken households

 

The black family survived Jim Crow and Slavery, but couldn't beat the welfare state

[vla1ne]

The black family survived Jim Crow and Slavery, but couldn't beat the welfare state

basically this. we endured every cruelty thrown at us, and came back stronger. but somehow we failed to resist the trap called "free benefits".

 

Has anyone spent the time to really look into these statistics and figure out what might be behind it? Statistics alone don't make a particularly strong base, it might show correlation but you know how the saying goes: Correlation does not imply causation. Has anyone really looked into it? Been to those neighborhoods? Spoken with these people? Spoken or read from someone who has spent that time?

 

And finally, what is the conclusion you're all trying to draw? That black people are inherently criminal or what?

i grew up in one of those neighborhoods. i saw it all firsthand. and 4 of my sisters, (and my 1 brother)  all grew up in different neighborhoods across the state, since we were all raised in different households. we all saw the same things overall, and many of them, and many of the family members in my few reunions, all basically have mirror image reports. and it's not like you can't find the same in states across the country, you see the same things not just in news reports, but in the interviews with people in those neighborhoods.

[spoiler=He says what i want to, way better than i could]

 

 

[Dad]

There's more white families on welfare than there are black families.

 

EDIT:  That's foodstamps LOL my bad.

 

The percentages are 26% black 22% white.

[mido9]

There's more white families on welfare than there are black families.

There's maybe 5 or 6 times more white families than black families

[Dad]

There's maybe 5 or 6 times more white families than black families

 

The program was created for the poor.  To the poor it goes.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The program was created for the poor.  To the poor it goes.

I think what Mido is saying is you need to consider proportions. An extreme example:

 

Say there was 99 white families and 1 black family. And of those, 9 white families were on welfare and the one black family was on welfare too. It's inaccurate to say that whites are more likely to be on welfare based on that sample. Only about 9% of White families would be on welfare in that case, compared to 100% of black families. Absolute numbers can be deceiving. 

[Nathanael D. Striker]

I think what Mido is saying is you need to consider proportions. An extreme example:

 

Say there was 99 white families and 1 black family. And of those, 9 white families were on welfare and the one black family was on welfare too. It's inaccurate to say that whites are more likely to be on welfare based on that sample. Only about 9% of White families would be on welfare in that case, compared to 100% of black families. Absolute numbers can be deceiving.

 

Percentages can be deceiving too, you know. Without additional information about the population sizes for each group, I bet people would attempt to make sure direct comparison between groups that isn't justified by the entire data. Just some food for thought.

[Dad]

I agree. The statistics are bad because the samples are bad because the system is bad.

 

So fix the system.