A New Member of the Staff Team

[Phantom Roxas]

Then that's personal, and it shouldn't be presented in such a way where you actively make statements without backing to them, like being a hindrance. I also saw where you said "I don't like her" eariler, and you do you. It's fine to make a character case, but your points have been trying to cover that aspect up. If it's something that needs to be down to the nitty-gritty, do that. Don't pussyfoot around. 

 

I also haven't given her any favortism. My only posts leading into any of this, before yesterday, was looking for answers to why she was shoved aside, and then another one to tell the team not to use her name if they weren't going to treat her as a serious option. I have not treated her with any favortism before or during this process.

 

Now, do I like the idea of her being promoted? Yes. If it took swapping me for her, I would take that option, because I believe in her ability to make a difference. As a member, I would love to make a case for her right now. However, as a Moderator, it is not my place to do that. I'm not going to force my logic on people when the entire point of this is that the community would be the deciding factor. That's what she wanted from it, because, realistically, we could have reinstated her based on the offer to return, and the mod concensus was 7 sure/yes with 1 idgaf... but that isn't what she stands for. 

 

I'm not going into it any more than that. I don't want to make a push. The point remains that I have done nothing to bolster her chances, push her forward, anything, unless you count looking for answers, die, and then later be revived by another Moderator mentioning re-promoting her.

 

I edited my earlier post because I'm wary that some points I'm making will come across as flaming. I'm wary of what to say because I still do not trust you, and in spite of everything else, this thread is opening up old wounds.

 

I kind of have to hold back in my criticisms, because you rejected when I said she would be a hindrance, and you repeated the same argument I've seen before, that what I see somehow doesn't line up with what "really" happened, and I was criticizing what I saw as favoritism because of that comment. I'm holding back now precisely because I'm trying to be careful that the points I want to make don't get lost in blind anger. It certainly felt like you were forcing your logic, and it kind of defeats the purpose of what she wants if you're just going say my criticisms of her are totally untrue.

 

I want to make it clear: I brought up the numbers thing because some mods were beginning to be thrown under the bus for frankly unjust reasons, and I felt I should bring it up to save some heat.

Except this really isn't helping. Dad clarified the situation far better than you did, since pointing to the numbers by no means resolves why I took issue with Black's comments, and why I was initially skeptical of Dad's perspective here.

[Blake]

I said that what you said was unfair. You said she would be a hindrance, definitively, and called her lax. Both of which are not what occurred in the past. If you wish to challenge that, make an actual point. You have nothing backing up your points, beyond it being what you think with no reasoning for it. That’s no different than a “no” vote outright. What you said is inconsistent with what occurred, pending actual statements or evidence to the contrary.

 

Speaking your mind isn’t flaming. It should never be a concern that speaking openly, without attacking, would be shoehorned into flaming.

[VCR_CAT]

Except this really isn't helping. Dad clarified the situation far better than you did, since pointing to the numbers by no means resolves why I took issue with Black's comments, and why I was initially skeptical of Dad's perspective here.

 

Success or not, I'm just saying that I didn't bring it up as a way of saying "But we all said yes so don't discuss it". I'm just making why I brought the point up clear, not really concerned with how much you took it into account.

[Tormented]

This was discussed in the Mod Forum but given this was already extended for more recent discussion, the end of the voting/discussion is now 30th (Friday/Tomorrow from this post) 

 

All points will be taken into consideration and we will discuss among ourselves what route we wish to take.

[Phantom Roxas]

I said that what you said was unfair. You said she would be a hindrance, definitively, and called her lax. Both of which are not what occurred in the past. If you wish to challenge that, make an actual point. You have nothing backing up your points, beyond it being what you think with no reasoning for it. That’s no different than a “no” vote outright. What you said is inconsistent with what occurred, pending actual statements or evidence to the contrary.

 

Speaking your mind isn’t flaming. It should never be a concern that speaking openly, without attacking, would be shoehorned into flaming.

 

You and her both took active measures to oppose any actions the rest of the mod team took, especially if it didn't meet your own personal approval, and that goes beyond your issues with me. When general concerns were raised about preventing harassment, you both completely rejected those ideas, and you went for the "People should just grow a spine" nonsense, because you would have rather put the onus on someone else to not get upset than actually do anything regarding harassment. You didn't make it a matter of "Constructive criticism is fine." You encouraged flaming, and said that if anyone was upset about those insults, then chances are that they probably deserved it.

 

You claim that "If it took swapping me for her, I would take that option", and really, that's all it would be anyway. You and her both agreed on the same things, so replacing you with her would functionally keep the team exactly the same. All I ever saw from Birdie was her supporting you without question, and I want to refer to Winter's reasons for supporting Birdie. He believes that the team needs a steady hand to guide them, and while I believe he is making a good argument in a broader sense, I believe the kind of person he was describing is not who Birdie is.

 

If all Birdie would be is a sounding board for what you want the team to do, then that makes her a hindrance to the team because she'd just be there to give you, and only you, a second vote in the team's decisions, preventing a variety of opinions, and she's too lax because she's shown that she's not going to actually do beyond just agreeing with you. She doesn't have anything to offer by herself. Do we want a unique individual who can offer their own distinct insight to the team, or just a guaranteed second vote for everything Black wants?

[Blake]

 

You and her both took active measures to oppose any actions the rest of the mod team took, especially if it didn't meet your own personal approval, and that goes beyond your issues with me. When general concerns were raised about preventing harassment, you both completely rejected those ideas, and you went for the "People should just grow a spine" nonsense, because you would have rather put the onus on someone else to not get upset than actually do anything regarding harassment. You didn't make it a matter of "Constructive criticism is fine." You encouraged flaming, and said that if anyone was upset about those insults, then chances are that they probably deserved it.

 

You claim that "If it took swapping me for her, I would take that option", and really, that's all it would be anyway. You and her both agreed on the same things, so replacing you with her would functionally keep the team exactly the same. All I ever saw from Birdie was her supporting you without question, and I want to refer to Winter's reasons for supporting Birdie. He believes that the team needs a steady hand to guide them, and while I believe he is making a good argument in a broader sense, I believe the kind of person he was describing is not who Birdie is.

 

If all Birdie would be is a sounding board for what you want the team to do, then that makes her a hindrance to the team because she'd just be there to give you, and only you, a second vote in the team's decisions, preventing a variety of opinions, and she's too lax because she's shown that she's not going to actually do beyond just agreeing with you. She doesn't have anything to offer by herself. Do we want a unique individual who can offer their own distinct insight to the team, or just a guaranteed second vote for everything Black wants?

She said that I handled you incorrectly publicly. She scolded me privately. Even if she agreed with the general points, she even said that Dad was right in regards to that one thread, and that everyone needed to take a step back and breathe. She even said that cutting you was not the best outcome. Agreeing with my general assessment of you doesn't mean she blindly supports me.

 

Looking back, her posts in the mod forum were largely related to PR. Either going with Zai's idea for a complaint thread (which ended up working out really well, shame it didn't happen sooner) or her own transparency threads.

 

In fact, she only had a grand total of 9 posts in the Mod Forum. 2 of which were related to her resignation. 2 of which were in regards to the thread I posted reviewing the team. 1 in Zai's idea for a Complaints thread. 4 of which were in her transpareny thread, where you opposed her, instead of her opposing the team. She never opposed the team or stood in their way during these posts, instead encouraging people to not let tension get to them and to be more open with the members. So calling her a hindrance is 100% unfounded.

 

I did not support flaming. I did not say that anyone deserved it. I said that we shouldn't treat ad hominem in the context of debates as a crime in-and-of itself, because it's very easy to get heated in the moment and say things you don't mean. Of course a repeat offender is an issue, and I said so at the time, but it's easy for anyone to slip up. Punishing humanity isn't ideal.

 

She is not, and has never been, an extension of me. She is her own person. We have discussions about the site and such at regular, and she often disagrees with me, because we have fundamentally different stances on certain things. She is far more liberal than I am. That's like saying Koko 100% agreed with me on everything. Being close doesn't change that.

 

She has things to offer. But It's not my place to be making those points.

[mitchermitcher]

@Phantom Roxas

i feel like there's some things that can be dismantled here, either for rebuttal or elaboration. and it feels like you're a little unfairly biased against black in this argument so i'll chip in a bit. (also black ninja'd me while i'm only half done so go figure)
 

You and her both took active measures to oppose any actions the rest of the mod team took, especially if it didn't meet your own personal approval, and that goes beyond your issues with me. When general concerns were raised about preventing harassment, you both completely rejected those ideas, and you went for the "People should just grow a spine" nonsense, because you would have rather put the onus on someone else to not get upset than actually do anything regarding harassment. You didn't make it a matter of "Constructive criticism is fine." You encouraged flaming, and said that if anyone was upset about those insults, then chances are that they probably deserved it.

you're saying two things for your argument in this paragraph, that kazooie essentially follows black's personal moral standard(the problem here being that kazooie becoming a mod just means black will have more control over the team, according to your accusations), and that he acts off personal opinion against the mod team's actions (the problem in this case being lack of professionalism by having personal bias leak into moderatorial decisions(moderatorial is apparently not a real world good to know)). the first part is elaborated on better in the next paragraph so i'll ignore that and focus on the second one. also your final paragraph restates those points you've made better so thats a thing too i guess but your elaboration of those points are here so i'll ignore it.
 
the one example you raise to support that second claim is vague. what's the context behind the concerns against harassment in this case? what degree of harassment is being debated at that time? because there is a degree of harassment in which it is reasonably the offended side that should take care to not be offended, rather than the offending side. where that degree lies exactly is up for debate and depends on several things but it exists. it is possible to be reasonable when suggesting that people should grow a spine in regards to harassment, and unless you'll provide the context that answers that, you can't say your example proves black's personal bias in mod decisions(said context has also been provided by black btw, which seems reasonable to me). in fact, the way you phrased it sounds more personally biased. you may not like it but growing a spine is not automatically an invalid rhetoric against harassment. saying that rhetoric is nonsense and grounds for dismissing that argument is your own personal opinion, and is not automatically a position the mod team should hold.
 

You claim that "If it took swapping me for her, I would take that option", and really, that's all it would be anyway. You and her both agreed on the same things, so replacing you with her would functionally keep the team exactly the same. All I ever saw from Birdie was her supporting you without question, and I want to refer to Winter's reasons for supporting Birdie. He believes that the team needs a steady hand to guide them, and while I believe he is making a good argument in a broader sense, I believe the kind of person he was describing is not who Birdie is.

goes back to the first point made earlier, but you are aware the two are close? that makes the nepotism accusations hold water, but it also means there's a good chance they share the same opinions on a number of things, that they're like minded enough to become close in the first place(again black's also elaborated on this in the post that ninja'd me).  that kazooie supports black 'without question' does not necessarily mean she mindlessly parrots his opinions, they could equally likely be people who both would arrive to the same conclusions. unless you can provide some posts where it's evident kazooie mindlessly supports black then your argument here isn't solid enough either. black's ninja post provided some personal accounts where they disagree on things. maybe that's good enough or maybe its not, but i think the onus is on the side claiming that one's a mouthpiece for the other.
 

the last paragraph's points have already been answered by everything else i typed so far so i'll skip that. its fine if you're against her becoming a mod but make more solid arguments against her. provide more concrete evidence or instances that support your doubts. argue better.

[Blake]

And it’s the 31st. This thread will be used in discussion and further used in Birdie’s decision to join the team or not. Thank you everyone who gave input.