Do we need a counter trap mirror force?

[zepheris]

There are multiple reasons why mirror force is no longer a good card. Spell and trap removal, destruction protection (Although the other mirror forces circumvent that to an extent), and just not impacting the game as much. The original mirror force was such a blowout card that it was limited for over a decade after coming out. It could win games on its own.

 

However, one key reason I feel mirror force is not viable is because, simply speaking, you can negate it. Cards like Shi En, who could negate a S/T each turn were once insane enough to make their deck the best deck of the format. (Although that could also be attributed to gateway and united both being at 3), but nowadays, nearly every meta deck can make a S/T negator first turn, be it vortex dragon, norito, totem bird, trigate, toad, etc.

 

The card wouldn't even need to be a counter trap version of an improved mirror force, just something similar to

 

Absolute Mirror Force

Counter trap

Activate only when your opponent declares an attack. Destroy all attack position monsters on the field.

 

A card that is strictly worse than mirror force, other than being a counter trap.

 

However, ideally, I'd prefer it to be something that also circumvents destruction protection, such as counter-trap storming mirror force.

 

Anyway, do you think Yugioh needs "Absolute Mirror Force" or not?

[Dova]

You've hit one reason why it's not a good card. Unfortunately, the other one is the fact that destruction simply isn't that viable any more. That's why people actually occasionally play Drowning, Storming and Quaking Mirror Force, as their means of removal are more effective than mere destruction. Storming Mirror Force returns monsters to the hand, getting rid of high-Level cards and Extra Deck monsters. Drowning Mirror Force shuffles into the Deck, a much more powerful means of removal but it requires the attack to be direct first (i.e. you control no monsters or some other card or effect forces it), and Quaking Mirror Force locks of your opponent's plays as long as they're not Tributing or Fusing. All of them better options than the original.

 

I think this change you've made is a step to buff it, but considering the protection on most bosses and the fact that a lot of effects trigger on destruction...I'd personally still run one of the above 3.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

The problem is that you don't want to run a card that does nothing the turn you draw it, and isn't even guaranteed to do anything on your opponent's turn after it is set.

 

Not only has the game largely moved away from trap cards in general, it has absolutely moved away from trap cards that only do one thing, in one situation, and contain no counterplay against removal.

 

It could be spell speed 73, banish all monsters the opponent controls face down, and it still wouldn't be a great card.

 

Compare it to evenly matched. It can be countered, and it destroys, yet it still is quite relevant. What's the difference that makes it so much better? I'll tell you right now there is more to it than taking out backrow.

[Dova]

Compare it to evenly matched. It can be countered, and it destroys, yet it still is quite relevant. What's the difference that makes it so much better? I'll tell you right now there is more to it than taking out backrow.

It banishes face-down; that's quite a bit more than destroying. It's the ultimate form of removal just after shuffling into the Deck. If it destroyed cards, I'm not sure it would be run so much, considering how many cards could trigger off it.

[VCR_CAT]

It banishes face-down; that's quite a bit more than destroying. It's the ultimate form of removal just after shuffling into the Deck. If it destroyed cards, I'm not sure it would be run so much, considering how many cards could trigger off it.

 

Can we kill the whole "Destruction is bad" myth now? I feel like Zoodiacs should have well shown, despite YCM's reaction of "wow this is bad, it targets AND destroys?!", that deck still hit a tier 0 or near-tier-0 status in no small part thanks to the very card they initially deemed as bad. Destruction is still a widely used effect as removal, and there isn't much relevant that cannot be destroyed.

 

Evenly Matched isn't better just because of its style of removal, it's because it can activate from your hand without having to wait a turn to use it. The fact that it can be used like a spell is what makes it so good. You can make the comparison to Raigeki if you like, but then we go into comparisons of unlimited cards vs. limited, rather than styles of removal.

 

There's also the myth of "but so many things trigger off of destruction". Because, again, not quite. In recent decks, we have gotten two decks that consistently trigger via at least destruction and at most being sent to the grave: Rokkets and Goukis. While Magicians have destruction-centric effects, their fields are not set up so that their intention is to benefit from the opponent destroying their cards, not to mention that no relevant deck these days works towards fields that rely on floating as contingency.

 

Mirror Force isn't an example of "destruction is bad" or "normal traps are bad". It's an on-going example of how classic battle traps are bad, and have been bad for some time. If you're actually using trap cards, you're using cards that have a higher likelyhood of being used at any point in a turn for strong disruption (ie. Solemns), cards that can be activated immediately or whenever they want to still see optimal use (ie. Dimensional Barrier, Floodgates), or cards that benefit you no matter what happens to them (True King Traps).

 

Battle traps just aren't good, because there's way too much of a risk of it just being a wasted resource than a card that lets you see use and benefit.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Gonna be honest, I thought evenly matched destroyed.

 

Let me put it this way. You know all those alternatives to mirror force you prefer, because they don't destroy? None of them see play. Destruction is not the problem. The problem is that the card doesn't do anything unless you opponent plays into it.

[zepheris]

I don't see why so many people pulled out all these other reasons when I mentioned them all in the original post. I just want a counter trap mirror force, is that too much to ask for?

 

This is especially true when people mention battle traps are slow and inconsistent, as though they've never been that way. The game is just a lot faster, but it's not fast to the extent that battle traps can never be viable. I get that it's a "Wasted resource", but it's really not, because you do need to use a s/t removal effect on it to remove it, and it's not a straight loss of a card. I also ******* mentioned this in the first sentence.

 

Also, i'm not looking for the next top tier end all be all card to end everything.

 

I just want a battle trap that is harder to negate, and a discussion on it's viability.

 

Dova, I did mention that Ideally I would prefer counter trap storming, but Konami kinda dislikes printing straight improvement to cards, like giving cosmic cyclone a 1000 point cost so it's not "Technically" a straight improvement.

 

Even the mirror forces we have now do see vague competitive play, so, temmie, I don't see the point you're trying to make.

 

The cat dude. Yes battle traps are bad. This post was just kinda trying to improve the battle trap that has the most possibility of being good by making it not negatable. Also, similar to how you say "Destruction is bad" is a myth, I shall claim "Battle traps are bad" is also a myth.

 

http://yugiohtopdecks.com/card/Storming+Mirror+Force

 

I do understand that three people used the card in the past three months, but it does see play. I'd wager a counter trap version would see more play, I can't be sure, because it's hypothetical. 

 

I don't want a counter trap mirror force to exist because I wanna play it. That's not the point I was making here. I feel like a battle trap that cannot be negated absolutely needs to exist so that people have to play around it.

 

It doesn't need to see play, it just needs to exist. A counter trap mirror force would make people alter the way they play, Hell, people play around regular mirror force even now, even when they have negates for it. People even still play around Gorz. Gorz. Gorz. That Gorz.

 

For better or for worse, I don't think it should be completely safe to attack into 4 backrow, and know they're not gonna do anything to you, because you made double treatoad.

 

The whole inspiration for this was when the YGOPRO AI hit me with Negate attack (Top quality duel there, don't you agree. Such strong opponents, too.) while I had treatoad, and I was sure I had game. Now, negate attack is never gonna see play because of this one fringe interaction, but mirror force might, which is why I made the thread in the first place. Not because I wanna play it, but because I wanna play around it, and maybe, just maybe, not be completely safe when attacking with negates.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

You asked if we needed it.

 

The answer is no.

 

It would still be bad.

[Dova]

I don't see why so many people pulled out all these other reasons when I mentioned them all in the original post.¹ I just want a counter trap mirror force, is that too much to ask for?

 

This is especially true when people mention battle traps are slow and inconsistent, as though they've never been that way. The game is just a lot faster, but it's not fast to the extent that battle traps can never be viable. I get that it's a "Wasted resource", but it's really not², because you do need to use a s/t removal effect on it to remove it, and it's not a straight loss of a card. I also ******* mentioned this in the first sentence.

 

Also, i'm not looking for the next top tier end all be all card to end everything.³

 

I just want a battle trap that is harder to negate, and a discussion on it's viability.

 

Dova, I did mention that Ideally I would prefer counter trap storming, but Konami kinda dislikes printing straight improvement to cards, like giving cosmic cyclone a 1000 point cost so it's not "Technically" a straight improvement.⁴

 

Even the mirror forces we have now do see vague competitive play, so, temmie, I don't see the point you're trying to make.

 

The cat dude. Yes battle traps are bad. This post was just kinda trying to improve the battle trap that has the most possibility of being good by making it not negatable. Also, similar to how you say "Destruction is bad" is a myth, I shall claim "Battle traps are bad" is also a myth.

 

http://yugiohtopdecks.com/card/Storming+Mirror+Force

 

I do understand that three people used the card in the past three months, but it does see play. I'd wager a counter trap version would see more play, I can't be sure, because it's hypothetical. 

 

It doesn't need to see play, it just needs to exist. A counter trap mirror force would make people alter the way they play, Hell, people play around regular mirror force even now, even when they have negates for it.⁵

 

For better or for worse, I don't think it should be completely safe to attack into 4 backrow, and know they're not gonna do anything to you, because you made double treatoad.

 

 

1. You glossed over them. My point, along with the other peoples points (at least how I understand them), was that there was more to making Mirror Force playable than simply making it a Counter Trap.

 

2. It's a card that relies on your opponent. You apparently don't get that it's a "wasted resource" as you immediately deny it; at least say you understand why we say it is a wasted resource.  Temmie, the only one who mentioned it, says that its not guaranteed you will be able to use it on your opponent's turn, and while this may be also true for the generically run Counter Traps, that is because the Solemns have such a wide range of uses that if your opponent doesn't trigger them, well, they're probably not a threat anyway, or an outlier.

 

3. Neither are we. We're talking about cards that affect the meta, and them being bad. I really don't know where you got this from.

 

4. ...then give it a LP cost or something? This card also lacks speed, which the other did mention, but notice who they have Evenly Matched at 3 and this card at 2, if that.

 

5. It doesn't need to see play. Isn't that why you wouldn't want to add this card? If they added this card you made right now, it would exist and it wouldn't see play, and as such, people wouldn't change how they played. Sure, against the occasional rogue Deck it would surprise you, but if it doesn't see play, why change the normal way you play?

 

---

 

In response to VCR_Cat, yes, you're right, destruction and on-destruction effects aren't as prevalent as before, but I will still say that sending to the GY combined with that leads to a factor as to why Mirror Force is meh, as the GY certainly isn't a graveyard as much these days.

[VCR_CAT]

Only way I'd run a battle-trap is if it had some sort of effect if it's destroyed by the opponent. A guarantee of getting something out of what would be very potentially nothing is a pretty good incentive, but that doesn't change the other fact that battle traps are very, very bad if you happen to be going second. The way the game is now, you want to minimize on cards that have a high likelyhood of holding in you back in the most situations, and battle traps are just... in terms of putting out an immediate field, they're completely dead cards and might as well not be there.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I've never not run Mirror Force because I was afraid it would get negated (which is what a counter would help with)

 

I don't run it cause it gets removed pre-battle

 

If you want to help MF, get better searchers and let it be dropped from hand

[TF2_The_Scout]

Isn’t the whole point of a counter trap to negate something? What would a counter trap Mirror Force negate? The attack? Well then, it would probably fall victim to back row removal. Like Darkrai said, going the Evenly Matched route would be more viable.

 

As for Gorz, I don’t know about you, but I’ve never not attacked out of fear for Gorz/Tragodia/anything like them.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Isn’t the whole point of a counter trap to negate something? What would a counter trap Mirror Force negate? The attack? Well then, it would probably fall victim to back row removal. Like Darkrai said, going the Evenly Matched route would be more viable.

 

As for Gorz, I don’t know about you, but I’ve never not attacked out of fear for Gorz/Tragodia/anything like them.

You used to in 2008-2012

 

Now days, think Evenly Matched instead of Gorz

[Tinkerer]

As for Gorz, I don’t know about you, but I’ve never not attacked out of fear for Gorz/Tragodia/anything like them.

 

The Gorz point was, I believe, a reference to the fact that to this day people attack from lowest ATK monster to highest which was how people played around Gorz.  It didn't necessarily stop attacks fully, but it permanently changed how the game was played.

[zepheris]

Now, I'm back with some research. I checked around some sources, and checked with a few semi-competitive people I know (No pros, but I don't know any.) I got a few things. Firstly, Mirror force cards, even OG mirror force are not bad cards by any stretch of the imagination. They can even be optimal cards in some situations. Storming mirror force, for example, was an extremely popular choice in zoo format (Do not tell me they've been powercrept in half an year. That's simply not true.) They're somewhat format dependent, and they're currently bad, primarily because the current best deck, magicians, almost always makes either vortex or norito turn 1. They're bad in combo decks and such, and magicians can barely afford to play hand traps, so... However, given the right conditions, (Going first, playing a slower deck or one with a smaller engine, in an extra deck reliant meta with little battle trap negation.)

 

Now, decks like pend magicians play little removal in the main deck outside purple poison or tornado, and nobody's gonna use that on a blind MST, they're extra deck based, they make gigantic boards, and they don't blind MST.

 

As far as evidence shows, mirror force is a good card, even now. It's not a great card, and it's a side deck pick at best, but a counter-trap that clears your field is not something that would never see play. No matter how much powercreep has happened so far, that's just not gonna happen. Yes, it's a battle trap. No that doesn't make it bad. Yes, it's situational. But it's a board wipe you can't respond to. If you find that to be terrible, then...

 

Now, It wouldn't be a top tier card by any means, but it would be prominent enough that people have to play around it, and I still stand by that statement.

 

It should never be completely safe to attack into 4 backrow. That's all I want.