Discussion Time: Geminis, Unions, and more

[TRUE RULER^(Imper.Di )]

Hello I'm Imperium.D and DJx00 on Duel-Portal. I've been playing Duel-Portal since it was on desktop. I haven't posted much in well over a year and am not as active in game as I used to be.

Anywho, I want to open up a discussion on Gemini monsters, Union monsters, mechanic creation, working with current and past game formats (referring to Pre-Link Summon, Link Summon, Pre-Xyz and such eras of the game).

 

Why is it important to talk about this?

 

Duel-Portal is our own community. Where Konami tends to fail is in playtesting. They don't put archetypes through enough practice that they power creep the game very slowly while being competitive against decks in existence. We have the ability to put cards out into a digital environment, play test them, make additions, subtractions, and overall reworking.

 

On to our Topics.

 

What are the flaws in design and mechanics that make Geminis noncompetitive or at least un-fun to use? Are there any flaws that we can adjust or abuse to make them Geminis more viable? What would/does it take to make Geminis more successful with or without changes to their mechanics? What changes can be implemented that could make Geminis too strong? Have you made any Gemini cards/archetypes before? How have you made them work?

 

[spoiler=Samples of a Really Old Archetype][spoiler=Windsor][spoiler=Lore]This card is treated as a Normal Monster while face-up on the field or in the Graveyard. While this card is face-up on the field, you can Normal Summon it to have it be treated as an Effect Monster with this effect:

* Once per turn when you activate a "Mythean" Spell Card, you can add 1 "Mytheques" monster from your deck to your hand.

 

 

 

[spoiler=Bubblus][spoiler=Lore]You can reveal this card from your hand to target 1 "Mytheques" Normal monster you control; Normal Summon that monster in addition to your Normal Summon or Set (you can only activate the effect of "Mytheques - Bubblus the Great Helm" once per turn).

 

 

 

 

What prevents or prevented Union monsters from being competitive now/before? How can we speed them up or slow them down? What changes can be implemented to make them stronger? What would make them too strong?

 

[spoiler=Samples from a mostly untested archetype][spoiler=Gladius][spoiler=Lore](1) While revealed from the deck, you can apply 1 of the following: * If you control a "Symbion" monster(s) other than "Symbion Gladius", Special Summon this card. 

* Send this card to the GY. Destroy 1 monster that has 1600 DEF or less, then draw 1 card for each 1000 ATK it had while face-up on the field. This effect of "Symbion Gladius" can only be applied once per turn. (2) Once per turn, you can either: Target 1 "Symbion" monster you control; equip this card to that target, OR: Unequip this card and Special Summon it in Attack Position. While equipped by this effect, the equipped monster gains 800 ATK, and the following effect: ? When this card battles another monster: reveal the top card of your deck. (A monster can only be equipped with 1 Union monster at a time. If the equipped monster would be destroyed, destroy this card instead.)

 

 

[spoiler=Vector] (1) When revealed from the deck, you can apply 1 of the following:* If you control a "Symbion" monster(s) other than "Symbion Vector", Special Summon this card. 

* Send this card to the GY. Look at your opponent's hand and discard 1 card from their hand. This effect of "Symbion Vector" can only be applied once per turn. (2) Once per turn, you can either: Target 1 "Symbion" monster you control; equip this card to that target, OR: Unequip this card and Special Summon it in Attack Position. While equipped by this effect, the equipped monster is unaffected by all other card effects. (A monster can only be equipped with 1 Union monster at a time. If the equipped monster would be destroyed, destroy this card instead.)

 

Are there any mechanics that you've created that you might want to see in the game? How have they served or failed you? 

 

For example:

I created a quasi-removal effect that doesn't actually move a card(s) from the field to a different zone. In fact, the mechanic I use forces a card into being an occupied Zone. I imagine that the effect would be like a "Petrify" status in a fantasy game where a character is turned to stone. You become a feature of the environment rather than an actor. What we know about Zones is that:

 

1) You can place cards in unoccupied Zones 2) You cannot place cards into occupied Zones. 3) The game does has not introduced rules that allow players or cards to interact with occupied Zones of any kind. 

[spoiler=Mirage of Ripples]

[spoiler=Lore]During either player's Battle Phase, while there are 4 or more monsters in your graveyard, you can reveal this card in your hand to activate 1 of the appropriate effects:

● Tribute a monster your opponent controls; Discard this card.

● Target a monster your opponent controls, until your next turn, it is treated as an occupied Monster Zone (it cannot be used as a monster); add it to your hand. You can send the top card of your deck to the graveyard to Special Summon this monster, otherwise place this card on the bottom of your deck.

 

 

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

It would help if we could get the DP users to come over here and contribute, as opposed to them talking on Discord about whatever. But that much aside, I haven't really done Gemini/Union design much, but I can at least give my perspective. 

 

I must note that a lot of it is driven by the current game at present, and while I'll try to focus this to pre-ZEXAL, yeah.

 

Geminis

 

 

 

What are the flaws in design and mechanics that make Geminis noncompetitive or at least un-fun to use? Are there any flaws that we can adjust or abuse to make them Geminis more viable? What would/does it take to make Geminis more successful with or without changes to their mechanics? What changes can be implemented that could make Geminis too strong? Have you made any Gemini cards/archetypes before? How have you made them work?

 

1. One of the major issues with them from a current standpoint is their need to be Normal Summoned again to get their effects, and are otherwise Vanillas on the board or in the GY, but not elsewhere. While you don't have to Tribute any added monsters, yeah, it still takes up your Normal Summon.

 

You do have Blazewing and Supervise as some support help, but that is about it. (If we're not taking Chemicritters and stuff into consideration here)

 

2. An idea would be to not have the "1 Normal Summon per turn" thing apply when you are Gemini Summoning a monster. Maybe that would push Geminis as a whole to a higher level, but not gamebreaking. 

 

3. We got Catalyst Field, but more cards that can speed up summoning would do them good here.

 

4. (see #2)

 

5. Only Geminis I've made are from the distant past (well, maybe 3-4 years ago) and mostly as some fan standalones in certain archetypes. I haven't playtested them. 

 

 

 

What prevents or prevented Union monsters from being competitive now/before? How can we speed them up or slow them down? What changes can be implemented to make them stronger? What would make them too strong?

 

1. Pre-ABC format, Unions didn't do anything when they left the field. In general, a lot of the older ones from Magician's Force are specific to a certain monster, which aren't necessarily good themselves [at least now anyway]. There are the pseudo-Unions which aren't this via subtype, but accomplish similar tasks.

 

Also, the fact being that you still have to summon the Union monster first before it can do anything of value. Frontline Base is somewhat useful, but yeah.

 

2. Give them more consistent ways to get parts out, less restrictive on what they can attach to for the most part and give some value when they go to the GY (floating). I'm not saying to copy ABCs (though they're proficient in what they do), but just do something to address their shortcomings.

 

3. Equipping them from the hand may be an idea, though you would have to put a hard "1 Union per turn" clause so we don't get people abusing it to spam for ED material. 

 

4. (See last part of #3; implementing this without the limiter will result in spam.)

 

 

Are there any mechanics that you've created that you might want to see in the game? How have they served or failed you? 

 

Currently have to say no on this one because I haven't deviated from current mechanics. Closest is probably figuring out how to recalibrate Links in a Master Rule 3 setting, but that's mostly as an AGM thing.

 

 

Though, the DPR members might be able to give some insight into how they're working out with their stuff on DP (though IIRC it's more geared towards the current climate).

 

@@Eshai

@@AbitTricky

[Dokutah]

Unions already has good future though if we take the lesson from aforementioned ABC + Union Hangar that already had it moments to shine in meta . again just like Sakura said its not necessary to copy them outright but the design principles that they have is not wrong to be steal

 

Konami did tried Geminis with Chemcritter, and technically all the line-up is decent especially Catalyst Field being down right amazing. but i think its still can be explored further. i have a personal idea that before the quote-on-quote "Gemini Summoned" we can have Gemini actually treated as Normal Monster in any place which can boost them decently by hitch-ride some amazing Normal Monster Support more like Unexpected Dai. Sakura idea for making Gemini Summon an almost-separate term like how Fusion Summon is another classification of Special Summon also intriguing especially if the said distinction enable multiple "Gemini Summon" per turn. another approach is having a consistent Multi-Normal Summon Shenanigans is either giving Gemini their own Ultimate Offering or basically giving them equivalent of True Draco archetype since Gemini in its own way in my opinion is basically like Tribute Summon without much loss of Card advantage other than the need of them to access multiple-summon feat

[Darj]

Ideas I have for improvement:

 

Geminis: Treated as Normals including in the hand, Deck and banished, pretty much anywhere as long as they aren't "Gemini Summoned". That would give them access to so much Normal support, namely Rescue Rabbit, Unexpected Dai.

 

Unions: Equippable from hand. More support to equip them during either player's turn. "Floating" effects as Sakura pointed out, and that don't miss timing like Machina Peacekeeper does, are welcomed as well.

 

Spirit: make them Special Summonable. They already took this step with the 2 Pendulum Spirits.

 

Toons: Adapt the "cannot attack the turn this card is Summoned" condition to allow them to attack, but not directly.

[Dokutah]

Spirit already have SS-able counterpart before in form of Yamato-no-Kami. but kinda like Qliphorth did to Tribute Summoning (which also part of their problem) Spirit need a consistent way to field monster and keep them. preferably a summon on opponent turn. so the brand new Pendulum Spirit is nice to have as an engine for it

 

Toon is a mix bag tbh, there more than 1 version of Toon Monster and each of them has an edge over the others. i think the approach should be taking each best point of each version and incorporated it into "True Toon". they do need a consistent Tribute fodder for both Normal Summons and Special Summon like Class-B toon generically speaking

 

on the topic of obscure Summon and Gimmick. Konami is often missing the point on Flip Summon and FLIP Monster as a whole. Shaddoll is a failed experiment, Subterror is decent but not really push them to relevance (although is surprisingly better than Shinobirds and Chemicritter fare). they probably need a generic version of self-flip effect like Big Shield Gardna to amp-up their speed

[Darj]

Hold on there, how are Shaddolls a failed experiment? I would say the opposite: the Flip effects complement their floating effects: if the opponent attacks them, you get the Flip effect, and if they sent them to GY by an effect, you get the float effect. Either way you are gaining something.

[Dokutah]

Hold on there, how are Shaddolls a failed experiment? I would say the opposite: the Flip effects complement their floating effects: if the opponent attacks them, you get the Flip effect, and if they sent them to GY by an effect, you get the float effect. Either way you are gaining something.

 

hmmm in that context probably not as failed as i thought them to be, but my stand is that they don use them consistent enough... people abuse the "sent to GY" effect  more IMO

[Darj]

hmmm in that context probably not as failed as i thought them to be, but my stand is that they don use them consistent enough... people abuse the "sent to GY" effect  more IMO

 

I would not say abuse, but rather used the intended way, as Fusion material or sent to GY by effects. IMO a better and more accurate way of looking at them is as if the Flip effects were actually bonuses/icing of cake, rather than their main trait.

 

 

Back to topic. I can't complain about Subterrors either: they take advantage of the Flip effect mechanic with their Set effects. I agree they need stronger support to get better, but that's a different matter.

[TRUE RULER^(Imper.Di )]

Spirit already have SS-able counterpart before in form of Yamato-no-Kami. but kinda like Qliphorth did to Tribute Summoning (which also part of their problem) Spirit need a consistent way to field monster and keep them. preferably a summon on opponent turn. so the brand new Pendulum Spirit is nice to have as an engine for it

 

Toon is a mix bag tbh, there more than 1 version of Toon Monster and each of them has an edge over the others. i think the approach should be taking each best point of each version and incorporated it into "True Toon". they do need a consistent Tribute fodder for both Normal Summons and Special Summon like Class-B toon generically speaking

 

on the topic of obscure Summon and Gimmick. Konami is often missing the point on Flip Summon and FLIP Monster as a whole. Shaddoll is a failed experiment, Subterror is decent but not really push them to relevance (although is surprisingly better than Shinobirds and Chemicritter fare). they probably need a generic version of self-flip effect like Big Shield Gardna to amp-up their speed

 

Thank you for expanding the discussion into Toons,Spirits, and Flips. I've never made Toon monsters but their mechanics did seem a little broken at first, but they aren't easy to play and that is their downfall. Assuming you've made Toon monsters or became interested in making them, do you think the implementation of your changes will affect the balance of the cards? Also, how would you make the SS/NS more consistent? Cont. effects/Spells/Traps? Or additional internal mechanics?

 

 

Ideas I have for improvement:

 

Geminis: Treated as Normals including in the hand, Deck and banished, pretty much anywhere as long as they aren't "Gemini Summoned". That would give them access to so much Normal support, namely Rescue Rabbit, Unexpected Dai.

 

Unions: Equippable from hand. More support to equip them during either player's turn. "Floating" effects as Sakura pointed out, and that don't miss timing like Machina Peacekeeper does, are welcomed as well.

 

Spirit: make them Special Summonable. They already took this step with the 2 Pendulum Spirits.

 

Toons: Adapt the "cannot attack the turn this card is Summoned" condition to allow them to attack, but not directly.

 

How do you feel about giving Geminis more than 1 additional effect?

 

Do you feel that the use of the multitude of Normal Support might break them? Also, based on the changes in gameplay since the introductions of Geminis, do you think that some of the existing Support has become ineffective while lacking any alternatives in the real/current game? 

 

Do you think Equipping from the hand should be an internal mechanic, or a boon provided from outside sources? exa. monsters on the field and/or S/T support?

 

Do you think there is any way to improve the presence of Spirits without removing their current mechanics? I do like the SS-able option. I feel like the forced return is a big enough draw back, and some aren't even that powerful.

 

 

nmplemeIt would help if we could get the DP users to come over here and contribute, as opposed to them talking on Discord about whatever. But that much aside, I haven't really done Gemini/Union design much, but I can at least give my perspective. 

 

 

I must note that a lot of it is driven by the current game at present, and while I'll try to focus this to pre-ZEXAL, yeah.

 

Geminis

 

 

1. One of the major issues with them from a current standpoint is their need to be Normal Summoned again to get their effects, and are otherwise Vanillas on the board or in the GY, but not elsewhere. While you don't have to Tribute any added monsters, yeah, it still takes up your Normal Summon.

 

You do have Blazewing and Supervise as some support help, but that is about it. (If we're not taking Chemicritters and stuff into consideration here)

 

2. An idea would be to not have the "1 Normal Summon per turn" thing apply when you are Gemini Summoning a monster. Maybe that would push Geminis as a whole to a higher level, but not gamebreaking. 

 

3. We got Catalyst Field, but more cards that can speed up summoning would do them good here.

 

4. (see #2)

 

5. Only Geminis I've made are from the distant past (well, maybe 3-4 years ago) and mostly as some fan standalones in certain archetypes. I haven't playtested them. 

 

 

1. Pre-ABC format, Unions didn't do anything when they left the field. In general, a lot of the older ones from Magician's Force are specific to a certain monster, which aren't necessarily good themselves [at least now anyway]. There are the pseudo-Unions which aren't this via subtype, but accomplish similar tasks.

 

Also, the fact being that you still have to summon the Union monster first before it can do anything of value. Frontline Base is somewhat useful, but yeah.

 

2. Give them more consistent ways to get parts out, less restrictive on what they can attach to for the most part and give some value when they go to the GY (floating). I'm not saying to copy ABCs (though they're proficient in what they do), but just do something to address their shortcomings.

 

3. Equipping them from the hand may be an idea, though you would have to put a hard "1 Union per turn" clause so we don't get people abusing it to spam for ED material. 

 

4. (See last part of #3; implementing this without the limiter will result in spam.)

 

 

Currently have to say no on this one because I haven't deviated from current mechanics. Closest is probably figuring out how to recalibrate Links in a Master Rule 3 setting, but that's mostly as an AGM thing.

 

 

Though, the DPR members might be able to give some insight into how they're working out with their stuff on DP (though IIRC it's more geared towards the current climate).

 

@@Eshai

@@AbitTricky

 

@Sakura, have you made any Union archetypes? Do you think the 1 Union per turn clause should exist as an internal mechanic or on a separate card? 

Also, I do use "treat it as being equipped by its own effect" in my texts to avoid ED spam currently. 

 

With my Symbions, I've been experimenting with really conditional effects with costs based on the effects of currently banned cards. Do you think that adding stronger non-Union effs will make them worthwhile without adding the equip from hand mechanic/effect?

[Darj]

How do you feel about giving Geminis more than 1 additional effect?

 

Do you feel that the use of the multitude of Normal Support might break them? Also, based on the changes in gameplay since the introductions of Geminis, do you think that some of the existing Support has become ineffective while lacking any alternatives in the real/current game? 

 

Do you think Equipping from the hand should be an internal mechanic, or a boon provided from outside sources? exa. monsters on the field and/or S/T support?

 

Do you think there is any way to improve the presence of Spirits without removing their current mechanics? I do like the SS-able option. I feel like the forced return is a big enough draw back, and some aren't even that powerful.

 

1. Some Geminis already do have more than 1. Like that Chemicritter Ox. This shouldn't be a problem as long it's not anything broken as an attempt of compensating the effort needed to enable the effects.

 

2. Nope. Heck, most Geminis have effects that are barely overpowering, so them getting more Normal support could even balance thing outs. If anything, strong Gemini effects I can think of are Gigaplant, Doom Shaman, but they have shined mostly due to their lack of hard OPT clauses. With clauses in place, they should be fine.

 

3. A boon provided by archetype support or generic cards. Not build-in though, at least not yet.

 

4. Yes. IMO extra Normal Summons is key, in addition to Aratama. It works just fine for Yusenjus, which are already Spirit-like.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

@Sakura, have you made any Union archetypes? Do you think the 1 Union per turn clause should exist as an internal mechanic or on a separate card? 

Also, I do use "treat it as being equipped by its own effect" in my texts to avoid ED spam currently. 

 

With my Symbions, I've been experimenting with really conditional effects with costs based on the effects of currently banned cards. Do you think that adding stronger non-Union effs will make them worthwhile without adding the equip from hand mechanic/effect?

 

1. Unfortunately, no, I haven't made any Union archetypes. If I did, might have to borrow a bit from ABCs as a reference for how to design for current play.

 

However, AGM does have some Union archetypes of its own, though I'd have to look at their competency.

 

2. Probably a separate card, but it'd depend. I mentioned the equipping from hand thing because of potential ABC spam; granted, you have XYZ, but those aren't as bad comparatively.

 

3. It'd help if Union monsters have their own utility outside of equipping to stuff, so yes.