1: Borges; The Library of Babel (31-1-2018)

[Tourmaline]

Here lies The Library of Babel's PDF: the first reading of many, and a legendary, seven-page piece. 

 

This will be the main literary discussion until February 8, 2018. For those who arrive here in the near or distant future, feel free to prompt a discussion regardless and others will join graciously.

 

I'll typically spur a discussion with a terse interpretation of a piece of the work I find interesting; the new reader can explore the piece without the subconscious pressure of an omniscient authority who induces dogma (pitiful for any artistic venture). 

 

The very library that encompasses the universe is found in front of a mirror:

 

"In the vestibule there is a mirror, which faithfully duplicates appearances. Men often infer from this mirror that the Library is not infinite-if it were, what need would there be for that illusory replication?" 

 

     Borges, a lover of Schopenhauer, was no doubt aware of the 108 Upanishads—holy Vedas of the Vedanta Hinduist school. Eastern religions akin to spiritual philosophies, the Upanishads teach the reader of the illusory dichotomy between the Atman (the self) and the Brahman (the ultimate reality or transcendent self; the universal, Spinozan apeirodimensional fractal). The outward universe is shown to ultimately stem from the self—the trees are a magical illusion, as are the atoms and galaxy clusters, and in symphony, the Atman unites with the Brahman. They are initially a dichotomy as subject to object but are ultimately subservient to the same will (Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation is precisely about this).

 

     The library is a compendium of all linguistically-encompassed human cognition: an infinitude of tomes consisting of an infinitude of linguistic combinations results in all possible expressions preexisting (this is more so Platonic). The mirror is meant to show that the library (the universe/Brahman) is, in fact, a reflection of the self (Atman) in the way that reality is a reflection of art. These connect because art (effable expression of the soul) is the self's precedent reality manifest while the mundane, scientific "reality" inspires—as a simulacrum—for the artist and is never directly experienced. The mirror is in the vestibule (a chamber beside an opening) like the senses are the window to the mind, and thus the Atman a mere illusion of the Brahman, though this placement seems merely symbolistic to me. 

 

This was an impromptu example of one of the genres of content expected in these discussions (particularly of the philosophical ilk) and was meant to help prime the reader's mind for one sort of thinking they'd have to do to truly experience the piece in question (don't betray yourself, of course). I'm more interested in what the participants want to bring to the table, though, so I encourage discussion of passages and themes the reader finds interesting be invoked by the reader when he becomes a participant. Don't wait for my permission or agreement—you're free voyagers. Of course, if the sort of thing I wrote is what appeases you, do quote and inquire, but always remember to bring what you find interesting up.

 

For anyone who wishes to participate, you are free to as of the moment this is posted and you have read the appropriate story.

[Tormented]

  I prefer to dream that burnished surfaces are a figuration and promise of the infinite. . .

I think this phones home for me as what I would think the world to be, we cannot truly know the end of something unless it has come to an end, therefore surely it is infinite until it is not, which I guess in turn is a statement that condescends itself.

 

 

 

When I am dead, compassionate hands will throw me over the railing; my tomb will be the unfathomable air, my body will sink for ages, and will decay and dissolve in the wind engendered by my fall, which shall be infinite.

 

 Is a fantastic way to describe death, whilst your conscious may not exist any longer your body is still fueling a cycle Ad infinitum, your body decomposes and is then used as food for bugs and other creatures, it helps the soil grow to be healthy, beauty.

 

 

That unbridled hopefulness was succeeded, naturally enough, by a simillary disproportionate depression.

With hope comes sadness, that is the way of life, to some extent and I feel it does summarise the concept of searching for knowledge and not finding answers you seek.

 

 

rl repeat: In order ior a book to exist, it is suflicient that it Lle possrlrrr. Onry rne inrpossiblc is excluded. For exanple, no book is also a staircasc, though lhr.rc rrc no doubt books that discuss and deny and prove that possibility, and othcls rvhose struc tLLre conesponds to that of a staircase.

I love this, the idea that whilst something may not be "true" there are indeed discussions that the possibility of something being the truth exists, for everything, at least that's what I'm getting from it.

 

 

You who read me-are you certain you understand my language?

No Borges, no I am not.

 

 

 

Fascinating read, I'm not sure I understood it's original intention but I still enjoyed understanding it in my own way.

[Thar]

An interesting way to picture the universe. The library makes sense, but the hexagons are what has me curious. Regardless, I suppose the choice of shape is irrelevant here, as I'm assuming he's just laying out the picture.

 

 

 

The Library is a sphere whose exact center is any hexagon and whose circumference is unattainable.

 

Not gonna lie, this line gave me goosebumps. Really puts into perspective the scale of the universe not as one big thing, but as an endless journey of discovery and wonder. When one finds answers to one thing, they end up asking many other questions that they have to find answers for. An endless cycle that keeps going even after death, as Tormey said:

 

Is a fantastic way to describe death, whilst your conscious may not exist any longer your body is still fueling a cycle Ad infinitum, your body decomposes and is then used as food for bugs and other creatures, it helps the soil grow to be healthy, beauty.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

 

the detailed history of the future, the autobiographies of the archangels, the faithful catalog of the Library, thousands and thousands of false catalogs, the proof of the falsity of those false catalogs, a proof of the falsity of the true catalog, the Gnostic gospel of Basilides, the commentary of that gospel, the commentary on the commentary on that gospel, the true story of your death, the translation of every book into every language, the interpolations of every book into all books, the treatise Bede could have written (but did not) on the mythology of the Saxon people, the lost books llilcitus.

 

The extraordinary thing is that this doesn't even cover a small fraction of what the library contains, let alone what has yet to be found. That being said, while this library could hold all the answers to every problem, it remains sourceless of itself. It's almost as if the universe embodies selflessness for mankind for the sake of being appreciated and admired in their own unique ways.

 

 

 

(ln the early seventeenth century, Cavalieri stated that every solid body is the superposition of an infinite number of planes.)

 

I have an interesting idea pertaining this:

 

[spoiler=Silly idea time]We think of dimensions as size variances in all directions:

 

No dimension - a single, matterless point that solely exists to express exact relative and/or absolute location

First dimension dimension - a single, straight line with no thickness that exists to express distance from one point to another

Second dimension - a plane or surface with no thickness that expresses the concept of area

Third dimension - a space for which all directions are viable

 

Between each dimension is a horizon for which if the above dimension crosses it, it projects its contents on the lower dimension in a way that it can be shown in that dimension. For example: If you pass a line from the first dimension across a horizon where there is no dimension, you get a point, and since the line never changes in shape, position, or thickness, the point remains the same.

 

Now if you take a sphere from the third dimension and pass it through a plane from a second dimension, at first the smaller part of the sphere goes through and you see a circle, then as it continues through, the circle in the plane gets larger as the larger portion of the sphere meets that horizon.

 

Now we move to the fourth dimension: time. Like the other dimensions and their horizons, time passes into a concept where four-dimensional timelines of our lives are passing through a three-dimensional horizon, being expressed in a way that we were made to understand.

 

 

Maybe that's just me overthinking things as usual, but it's interesting to think about.

[Tourmaline]

I think this phones home for me as what I would think the world to be, we cannot truly know the end of something unless it has come to an end, therefore surely it is infinite until it is not, which I guess in turn is a statement that condescends itself.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with an old friend last September of the duality between rationality and emotion; until a situation is in hindsight as a detached investigation, there is no certainty of actions being made in the name of rationalism or emotionalism: pressing forth an argument, one's steps could seem to tread the stable ground of sheer logic, but only until the psychosis is dispelled through reflection and the ground found to be quicksand—a reflexive tantrum.

 

 

Is a fantastic way to describe death, whilst your conscious may not exist any longer your body is still fueling a cycle Ad infinitum, your body decomposes and is then used as food for bugs and other creatures, it helps the soil grow to be healthy, beauty.

 

With hope comes sadness, that is the way of life, to some extent and I feel it does summarise the concept of searching for knowledge and not finding answers you seek.

These correlate as paradigms of an ultimate celestial balance. Emotion as an energetic resource transforms from hope to sadness like heat from a heavy impact. The heat transfers with the cool air and disperses in the same vain that a particle of hope may one day too become despair. That despair becomes depression in some and resolution in others, and disperses infinitely as other emotions and physical changes. It's the truest sense of immortality.

 

 

Not gonna lie, this line gave me goosebumps. Really puts into perspective the scale of the universe not as one big thing, but as an endless journey of discovery and wonder. When one finds answers to one thing, they end up asking many other questions that they have to find answers for. An endless cycle that keeps going even after death, as Tormey said:

It's good to see this is in consonance between the readers. That's an appropriate understanding of the descriptors—Borges loved writing about writing.

 

 

The extraordinary thing is that this doesn't even cover a small fraction of what the library contains, let alone what has yet to be found. That being said, while this library could hold all the answers to every problem, it remains sourceless of itself. It's almost as if the universe embodies selflessness for mankind for the sake of being appreciated and admired in their own unique ways.

This, too, is found in the thoughts that birthed this passage of yours. Your attempted communication concatenates and bruteforces ineffable concepts into linguistic containers. The thoughts, preceding the semiotics, are never purely uttered and are thus never truly understood; they are marred and thrust into coffins, the murderers cloy damning, sympathetic dirges and publish sciolist epitaphs. Of course, these, too, are encompassed by the library, but the sum of understandings is always infinite.

 

 

Now we move to the fourth dimension: time. Like the other dimensions and their horizons, time passes into a concept where four-dimensional timelines of our lives are passing through a three-dimensional horizon, being expressed in a way that we were made to understand.

Time does not denote a dimension; it denotes changes in space. Should spacial change cease, so too shall time. Should time cease, so too shall changes in space.

 

It's good to see you're both enjoying it, though. Be sure to expand on your opinion of the piece (how good it was) in the main thread to give me direction, since the reading list will change if the reception is tepid or less.

[Simping For Hina]

@hina, reading the tower of babel, have you looked at it from a postmodern perspective?

I love the quote from the Anatomy of Meloncholy, too, which is resounding to the original thesis of that work.

I love the atmospheric premise of the work, but condense it down to societal divisions is another interesting mechanism.

 

 

I'll write more by tonight, with sources. I thought this was a good way to start.

 

I am just going to use this post to regulate my thoughts, the piece is an interesting one. COPY AND PASTE, GO GO GADGET:

 

Library of Babel subject itself to a tractatus logic-philosophy, which helps to regulate the reading and subject of the narrator. I think a nice ramus approach to the language would help to surmise the collectivity of the different scopes of librarians.

 

I haven't actually read the thread itself since this piece in conceptually dense in a few different avenues. It plays off of the mental breakdown of Burton without the focus of literary insight, while supplementing its take on the mindscape in a Cartesian outlook, that delves into the connection of imagination and conceptualization.
 

Am I looking at the text in the right manner? I find the repetition of the way the library is constructed to help develop understanding, but the contract on the expansion of it.

 

There is a dichotomy between the scope of tangential knowledge and unbeknownst knowledge infinitive, so I am curious at the regulation of the individual understanding between that two that the story creates, being that of which there is infinitude toward a lack of outcome and understanding.

I'm planning to put my thoughts in a more cohesive understanding of them, as I am just running through what I already know and what I am trying to understand with the text itself.

[Darj]

Alright, I read this, and got some thoughts. I won't be as detailed as to quote paragraphs from the text. I will mainly highlight things written there that caught my attention.

 

First, the description of the library. I found amusing how I was just starting when I already was struggling to grasp the layout of the library, which I assumed would be an integral part of the literary work. Specifically, I was lost when it described the location of the bookshelves and openings in the hexagon that leads to other rooms, since the author isn't clear enough. I went to look it up, only to discover others struggled with the same, and stumbled upon theories on how an arrangement of the hexagons would look like. I don't really know what to interpret from this: did the author was deliberately vague with the description to leave it to the reader's own interpretation of the library, and thus, the universe? or could it be that he actually forgot to be more descriptive? I want to believe it's the former.

 

Another part that got my attention was how he started to refer to the "Book-Man" as Him, even with an uppercase. Clearly this is an allegory to a god. But strangely enough, I get the vibe it comes from the author's beliefs, not so much the protagonist in this story, as if the author's own thoughts had leaked in. I guess I would say it feels out of place, or rather, character. As for why I got this impression, I'm still trying to figure it out.

 

I liked the contrasts the story presents upon the possibility of finding all the answers, of knowledge. In this story it's presented as The Vindications, as well as books that reveals the mysteries of mankind, but this can be applied to other aspects, including in life and the universe. Some people were filled by hope, others fell in despair and denial, and yet others dared to create them themselves. I believe it truly represents the different responses people can have towards a marvelous truth, regardless of its nature.

[vla1ne]

 

First, the description of the library. I found amusing how I was just starting when I already was struggling to grasp the layout of the library, which I assumed would be an integral part of the literary work. Specifically, I was lost when it described the location of the bookshelves and openings in the hexagon that leads to other rooms, since the author isn't clear enough. I went to look it up, only to discover others struggled with the same, and stumbled upon theories on how an arrangement of the hexagons would look like. I don't really know what to interpret from this: did the author was deliberately vague with the description to leave it to the reader's own interpretation of the library, and thus, the universe? or could it be that he actually forgot to be more descriptive? I want to believe it's the former.

well, only 4 of the 6 walls of each library are books, the 5th is said to be a passageway/stairwell, a restroom, and an upright bed, if i read correctly, and the 6th was either ignored, or i mistook the exact description for something else. the layout, and the hexagon shape actually make a twisted form of sense, since the sheer size of the library is such that a lifetime, if not multiple lifetimes of travel wouldn't lead you to either end, the form may be akin to

[spoiler=this]

 

layered up and down near infinitely, in the same manner as a beehive. the layout is strange, but considering the library may well contain every possible book combination in existence (within the limits of "four hundred ten pages; each page, forty lines; each line, approximately eighty black letters"), it gets some leeway for structural mystery. as there's likely a book in there that details the exact layout as well.

[Darj]

Yeah, that could be a possibility, but there are so many other attempts out there at depicting it, with different approaches. Even in the model you show, the doors aren't indicated. I would provide some links and images, but I feel it's more appropriate to let the reader look it up on its own instead, to avoid inducing any kind of bias on the reader's theories and thoughts.

[Kazooie]

Well, after reading this, I can safely say that my fear of a worthless future has been kindled for a day or two.

 

One of my personal biggest fears is the future, not knowing what to expect or how I'm going to make it from day to day. This is basically the exact opposite of that, with these people knowing what they're going to do for all of life, but our narrator, and more than likely a large number of others, know that there is hardly any purpose to what they're doing, the chances of finding anything truly revolutionary is almost absolutely zero, and that's one of the things that scares me about life more than anything. That, no matter what you try to do, you may leave no lasting impact on the world. Yeah, it wasn't the focus of the story that this guy wouldn't find anything and that's what is important, but it's what would have been going through my own head in that kind of situation I'm sure.

 

The fact that there's an editor's note to specify that in the 'original manuscript' there were only 22 letters, space, comma, period. Obviously that means that this isn't 'our' universe, but what I want to know more about is who the editor is. Could it be that almighty Book-Man God Librarian that our narrator talked about near the end, perhaps? The reason this one stood out so much to me is because the other two footnotes aren't labeled as [Ed. note.], which pretty heavily implies they were written by the original narrator. I don't know if there's enough information to know for certain, but... I like to imagine it's the Book-Man that our narrator so dearly hoped existed.

 

The fact that people wanted to see what the books had to say about their own lives, only to go mad doing it... It's not surprising. That sort of theme is common in a lot of stories, but usually the going mad part happens after they've found out what they want to know. But when you're going through a massive library that may or may not be infinite, you're probably gonna go a little mad faster than usual...

 

The narrator being so certain that nothing in the library is absolutely gibberish, well... I can understand that feeling. When you devote your life to something, the idea that it might have been a waste is definitely not something you want to take seriously. 

 

 

 

Not gonna lie, this line gave me goosebumps. Really puts into perspective the scale of the universe not as one big thing, but as an endless journey of discovery and wonder. When one finds answers to one thing, they end up asking many other questions that they have to find answers for. An endless cycle that keeps going even after death, as Tormey said:

 

 

For me, it was this line.

 

"Someone proposed searching by regression: To locate book A, first consult book B, which tells where book A can be found; to locate book B, first consult book C, and so on, to infinity. . . . It is in ventures, such as these that I have squandered and spent my years."

 

That one line basically summed up how futile the search is for me, even if it was in reverse. You can spend forever trying to find even the first book in the chain, then you have to keep looking. Keep going. And even then, it would supposedly go on 'forever', even though it's finite, you would die before you got there unless you were inconceivably lucky. Maybe I'm just looking at it in a pessimistic view, but I do not envy these librarians one bit.

 

 

 

I love this, the idea that whilst something may not be "true" there are indeed discussions that the possibility of something being the truth exists, for everything, at least that's what I'm getting from it.

 

I'm glad that was brought up too, actually. It only makes sense, if the library would have literally everything down in writing, it would only make sense for it to have that idea written down as well, discussions over things that we might take for granted nowadays had to have happened at some point.

 

---

 

More than anything, the thing that caught my eye about this short story was definitely that mysterious editor, because it clearly wasn't our narrator, and it wouldn't have been worded the way it was if it wasn't meant to be taken as someone still in the story. I might have more to say later, but right now, my head is a little achy so I'm gonna wrap it up here.

[iarimakousei]

Whoops, i am way too late to the party. I really loved reading the PDF, and mediocre and worthless as they may be, here are my interpretations and thoughts on the things written in this short text by Borges:

 

 

The library is a compendium of all linguistically-encompassed human cognition: an infinitude of tomes consisting of an infinitude of linguistic combinations results in all possible expressions preexisting (this is more so Platonic). The mirror is meant to show that the library (the universe/Brahman) is, in fact, a reflection of the self (Atman) in the way that reality is a reflection of art.

 

Keeping in mind that the concept of Brahman in Hinduism is likened to an incomprehensible yet absolute wholeness or completeness of human existence and this is often likened to Vishnu, or Satchitananda himself as the word being one of his names and it signifying the absolute truth about the nature of consciousness and the soul. The concept of Atman and Brahman being "reflections" of one another is a perspective i never really grew up with, one of the core reasons being that Buddhism is notoriously renowned for its pedagogical nature, one that has filled me with resentment more often that not, that i still feel the dogmatic presence of the teachings hovering over my thoughts and sense of volition. The way to self-realization/ nirvana was presented as something that is bestowed upon one, when he attains the state of Atman. The Atman, is more often than not perceived as and later, inevitably evolved into an incoherent, self-mesmeric cycle of intuitive "understanding". Understanding of the self is governed by rationality, something that requires irrefutable proof that conquers all doubt with conviction and reason, the very core of the workings of mathematics are proof of this. Thus, upon attaining the state of Atman, we become one with the Universe, thus manifesting into Brahman, destroying that illusory dichotomy and realizing that there is a spiritual oneness in the existences of the Atman and Brahman like in the universe and its constituents, or so i think i learnt.

 

It is like restless water whose ripples are generated by the often inescapable dualities of stillness and movement within one's mind and the mind being the infinite ocean that the water resides and takes form in. That coming from the belief that the path to God is one governed by commandments and a "way", which the writer aptly put as "delirious divinity". The path to such a goal for me is to realize and accept that intuition, powerful in its own right is a purely psycho-biological phenomenon, one that helps us paint a picture of the world we perceive in our own understanding yet it is not, knowledge. It is merely a puzzle waiting to be deciphered and understood, to approach this puzzle with reason is to achieve enlightenment. Wisdom is to become one with the transcendental. The projection of feelings and emotions into ideas and their evolution into action is the process of understanding and gaining knowledge, but there is a whole other side to it that lies within us. Experiences are our perceptions and imaginations projected outwards, whereas dreams and curiosity are projected inwards, so seeing the idea that Atman and Brahman may be reflections of one another has been an intellectually stimulating concept to read.

 

Thoughts on the PDF :

The architecture and the mathematics behind it are fascinating and wonderful and the concept of absolute space being implied to justify each room being a hexagon is something i cannot put my finger on yet but i can feel the symmetry and vastness of this structure and its so mystifying. To quantify mass and volume into such a structure is something really cool to see. No matter how unfathomable as it may seem, there is something reassuring about likening the universe to a library that encourages exploration and thought.

 

The origin of the library as Borges described "ab aeterno" immediately brings forth thoughts like "how was the first book created?" and "how was the library put together" and most importantly, if it was indeed God who created the library and made it such that it is infinitely huge, did he make it so in the form of orthographic symbols which correspond to grammatical rules set by every language to ever exist in human history? Or is it human interpretation that makes the library what it is? It would be so funny to let loose someone like wittgy-kun in there. Inside the library, exploration merely takes on a different form but i don't think it is much different from real life where everything we see and feel speaks a different kind of language to us. It is so wonderful.

 

The most fascinating and the coolest part that got my attention early on was:

 

A circular chamber containing a great circular book, whose spine is continuous and which follows the complete circle of the walls; but their testimony is suspect; their words, obscure. This cyclical book is God.

 

How God was likened to a circle which holds deep symbolism, we literally call it "circle of life". It was mind-blowing to read how Borges described the structure and workings afterwards. How the humans divided into groups, exploring and seeking their own answers under one huge roof. It is quite similar to the concept of ajativada or in madhyamaka as the theory of nonorigination applied to how the library was "born" and how it grows and the "one person" who read the book containing the truth. The fact that the origin of this place doesn't exist, neither does its end drastically changes one's empirical standpoint on the transactional realities that one may experience within the library. All the way from birth to death, though it being different and a lot more complex in real life, it is still a cool thing to think about.

 

It reminds me, the grim reality of biological limitations and the inevitability of death but it is not scary. Death is just dissolution of bodily elements and energy dissipating into the universe. Thermodynamics.

 

 

At that time it was also hoped that a clarification of humanity’s basic mysteries—the origin of the Library and of time—might be found. It is verisimilar that these grave mysteries could be explained in words: if the language of philosophers is not sufficient, the multiform Library will have produced the unprecedented language required, with its vocabularies and grammars.

 

These kinds of questions, always have produced more questions than answers. Philosophical exegesis suffers from/ is restricted by linguistic reification, i can only wonder what it is about the books and the symbols in them that is so abstract yet so grounded in reality like mathematics, which demands absolute proof before everything, not allowing doubt to exist. It makes me see life as a connected web of events rather than me swinging endlessly from one point to another, but there is a certain kind of beauty in chaos and anarchy too.

 

In the end, I can't help but feel a growing sense of disillusionment, pondering over the thought of the futility of such a pursuit, if it is futile at all that we endlessly seek to gain knowledge not for betterment but merely to satisfy our curiosity. One glass of water is often enough to quench our thirst so why seek to drink and absorb the entire ocean? Borges is motivating, thrilling and very imaginative in his presentation of the limits and the beauty of human endeavor and life. Regardless of what the motivations or dispositions of said "librarians" or as i prefer to word them, "explorers" may be, they have their own understanding of reality and its synergism with people and the universe is powerful and magical. We should never stop exploring and seeking out new truths but at what cost and what should purpose be if not betterment of the self and the ones we love? Sometimes the question is "how far can we go?" and sometimes it becomes, "how far should we go?", i guess.

 

The potential for human imagination and action is infinite and this is what i love about humans and life. It may be my very mediocre understanding of language and life that brings forth such anxiety but i still really adored reading this. Thank you, for allowing me to post btw, Lambda <3

P.S Apologies for the necrobump, in case it violates any rules.

[vla1ne]

Never too late to get into a new book, and considering it's the literature thread, it's not a bad thing to bring some life back into things here.