Updating rules for Animation & Graphic Novels

[Dad]

You want rule changes?  Neither of your two new moderators have assigned sections yet, and they haven't chosen any.  Make demands of them.  Have one of them choose a section(s) and begin discourse to re-do the rules.  And enough with the "get over it" sheet.  Wasn't someone just jabroniing about Moderators using rules as they please?  

 

And I'd also appreciate it if y'all kept this from becoming a witch hunt.  Sakura can edit his posts to not be in violation of updated rules if you're that concerned.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You want rule changes?  Neither of your two new moderators have assigned sections yet, and they haven't chosen any.  Make demands of them.  Have one of them choose a section(s) and begin discourse to re-do the rules.  And enough with the "get over it" sheet.  Wasn't someone just jabroniing about Moderators using rules as they please?  

 

And I'd also appreciate it if y'all kept this from becoming a witch hunt.  Sakura can edit his posts to not be in violation of updated rules if you're that concerned.

And you guys told me to "get over it"

[Phantom Roxas]

You want rule changes?  Neither of your two new moderators have assigned sections yet, and they haven't chosen any.  Make demands of them.  Have one of them choose a section(s) and begin discourse to re-do the rules.  And enough with the "get over it" sheet.  Wasn't someone just jabroniing about Moderators using rules as they please?  

 

And I'd also appreciate it if y'all kept this from becoming a witch hunt.  Sakura can edit his posts to not be in violation of updated rules if you're that concerned.

 

This is meant more as a general concern to the mod team as a whole. If Cow or Black are interested, I'd be happy to see them step up than demand that either of them take care of it. Sakura has said that this matter has been raised in the mod forum, so I will leave it to you and the rest of the team to discuss it among themselves.

 

As I said, I'm using the Complaints thread to talk about Sakura. I agree that this should not become a witch hunt, so I will avoid try single out Sakura in this thread from this post onward.

[Dad]

And you guys told me to "get over it"

 

Precisely.  So let's not go down that road again.

 

 

This is meant more as a general concern to the mod team as a whole. If Cow or Black are interested, I'd be happy to see them step up then demand that either of them take care of it. Sakura has said that this matter has been raised in the mod forum, so I will leave it to you and the rest of the team to discuss it among themselves.

 

As I said, I'm using the Complaints thread to talk about Sakura. I agree that this should not become a witch hunt, so I will avoid try single out Sakura in this thread from this post onward.

 

That's all I want.  Let's have actual discourse.  You've got the means, so let's put something into action.  

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Professionalism ought to extend beyond what is "legally grey, but you probably won't get punished for it".

 

Moral grandstanding against a company that uses ads/subscriptions to make a profit with legally distributed media isn't going to win an argument. Implying that "if you don't want to pay for something, just get it for free from someone who stole it" is the meaning of capitalism is laughable.

 

I can't force you to watch the things you like through legal means. It isn't within my power, nor within my responsibility. But that doesn't mean members should be guided toward using illegal streaming sites, let alone by the forum's staff.

You want rule changes? Neither of your two new moderators have assigned sections yet, and they haven't chosen any. Make demands of them.

Improving the site is not the sole responsibility of the two new members. This subforum literally exists for making suggestions on changes that members think ought to be made, so I'm not sure why you insist that CowCow and Black shoulder this when they are no more responsible for the section than any other moderator.

[Phantom Roxas]

Sure, so give me good reasons why you care so much. I've already shown that a legal route isn't anything we have to fear. 

 

Telling you to get over it isn't an insult, "Roxas stop shilling for crunchyroll" would be, and I didn't say that

 

Making this about "why I care so much" is getting off topic, and making this more personal than necessary. Please try a different approach.

[Dad]

Improving the site is not the sole responsibility of the two new members. This subforum literally exists for making suggestions on changes that members think outht to be made, so I'm not sure why you insist that CowCow and Black shoulder this when they are no more responsible for the section than any other moderator.

 

I said they haven't gotten assignments yet.  This would be the perfect time to give both of them the proper work through their trial period.  Not only that, but it resolves a complaint.  Now if you want, I can just go change the rules myself and take over.  Or you can have someone you would prefer to moderate in that section and work closely with them, instead of anyone just going in, changing rules, and telling you good luck.  They aren't "shouldering" anything.  They're doing their jobs.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Professionalism ought to extend beyond what is "legally grey, but you probably won't get punished for it".

 

Moral grandstanding against a company that uses ads/subscriptions to make a profit with legally distributed media isn't going to win an argument. Implying that "if you don't want to pay for something, just get it for free from someone who stole it" is the meaning of capitalism is laughable.

 

I can't force you to watch the things you like through legal means. It isn't within my power, nor within my responsibility. But that doesn't mean members should be guided toward using illegal streaming sites, let alone by the forum's staff.Improving the site is not the sole responsibility of the two new members. This subforum literally exists for making suggestions on changes that members think outht to be made, so I'm not sure why you insist that CowCow and Black shoulder this when they are no more responsible for the section than any other moderator.

It's a YGO site, where we're watching anime. Sakura isn't ripping his PHD thesis. 

 

Crunchy is a sheet site that makes it a pain to use. And they do that on purpose so you'll buy their crap. Roxas is not answering what is gained out of taking Sakura to the woodshed over this. Worse quality...and a sense of some vague nebulous "professionalism" ??

Making this about "why I care so much" is getting off topic, and making this more personal than necessary. Please try a different approach.

Sure, what does it do to better help the users of this site

[Phantom Roxas]

Roxas is not answering what is gained out of taking Sakura to the woodshed over this.

I'm not asking because Dad asked for this not to become a witch hunt, and I am respecting his request. I told Dad and Disfigure that I would rather discuss that in the Complaints thread, so if you want to talk with me about that, I ask that you take it over to that thread, because otherwise it would be bogging down this thread.

 

Sure, what does it do to better help the users of this site

It provides people with higher quality videos. If I recall correctly from when I've watched on Dailymotion and other sites, the visual quality is not particularly good, and those sites have used video uploaders like MegaUpload, which was shut down for copyright infringement. Such uploads are unreliable in the long term, while visiting Crunchyroll means you can often visit a site that is both reliable, and high unlikely to face legal action like MegaUpload did.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Thank you. I'd have to watch DM vids that Sakura has been posting to get an opinion on that. But that's what I was looking for. When looking for YGO DM jap subs it was oft the case that quality didn't drop. I'm somewhat skeptical a free media site would be that much worse than CR even if DM is

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

promoting a site that actually pays content creators rather than keeping all the ad revenue from various clickbait links to malware-filled sites and clones of mobile games is pretty cool, but yes, there is some loss of convenience.

 

A website making the free version of their product less optimal than the one they offer to subscribers is how capitalism is supposed to work, not going to illegal distributors because the free service offered by a company that negotiated and paid for the right to distribute this content wasn't convenient enough. The reason sites like Crunchyroll, Funimation, VRV, Netflix, etc charge a fee is because they actually paid for the content they are giving you.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

promoting a site that actually pays content creators rather than keeping all the ad revenue from various clickbait links to malware-filled sites and clones of mobile games is pretty cool, but yes, there is some loss of convenience.

 

A website making the free version of their product less optimal than the one they offer to subscribers is how capitalism is supposed to work, not going to illegal distributors because the free service offered by a company that negotiated and paid for the right to distribute this content wasn't convenient enough. The reason sites like Crunchyroll, Funimation, VRV, Netflix, etc charge a fee is because they actually paid for the content they are giving you.

I'd argue that copyright and trade marks are inherently un-capitalist, but we can take that to debates

 

Are you alleging that DM has high risk of malware implants?

[Susie]

Mentioning where to watch them is my issue.

 

I want this to be a update of the current rules to be more strict.

 

If not that then what else is there? Technically you are still are making the rules more strict by only allowing to mention illegal sites for the case of obscure/too old considering that the rules currently state its okay to link illegal sites when dealing with that kind of stuff. I fail to see how you can get to any middle ground that is more strict in this sort of scenario.

[mitchermitcher]

I will say this: I don't think the rules should be dictating what the members should or shouldn't do regarding off-site things like piracy. You can personally encourage people to go towards legal options and that's fine, but making it an actual enforceable rule to stop people who don't agree with that, I don't think the forum has a place in doing that.

 

 

Rule 5 in the YCM rulebook states that it is against the forum rules to post information regarding illegal content, and includes streaming sites as an example.

Unfortunately as long as this rule is essential to the site there's nothing I can do I guess, aside from voicing my part.

[Flame Dragon]

I'm going to step in here.

 

First, I have certainly broken this rule, or at leas the spirit of this rule. I'm pretty sure in the XYZ anime I talked about where to watch since the show isn't available legally and the place I had found it on was being slow. My doing so was wrong. It is that simple.

 

The no linking rule is iron clad and is not changing. Period. The reality is finding something illegally on the internet is not hard and telling someone where to go falls enough under rule 5 of the forum that this will now be included. If you think illegal site ABC offers better quality than Crucnhyroll or any other legal alternative, clearly I'm not going to be able to change your mind and make you use them. However don't go telling people to use ABC. If this is a show that doesn't have a legal alternative, lampshade how to find it, but don't name names. Again, it is an open secrete that aggregate sites exist. We know it, Crunchyroll and Funimation know it, and the people in Japan making it know it. But directing people towards those place is not something we should be doing.

[Phantom Roxas]

I'm going to step in here.

 

First, I have certainly broken this rule, or at leas the spirit of this rule. I'm pretty sure in the XYZ anime I talked about where to watch since the show isn't available legally and the place I had found it on was being slow. My doing so was wrong. It is that simple.

 

The no linking rule is iron clad and is not changing. Period. The reality is finding something illegally on the internet is not hard and telling someone where to go falls enough under rule 5 of the forum that this will now be included. If you think illegal site ABC offers better quality than Crucnhyroll or any other legal alternative, clearly I'm not going to be able to change your mind and make you use them. However don't go telling people to use ABC. If this is a show that doesn't have a legal alternative, lampshade how to find it, but don't name names. Again, it is an open secrete that aggregate sites exist. We know it, Crunchyroll and Funimation know it, and the people in Japan making it know it. But directing people towards those place is not something we should be doing.

 

Thank you stepping in, Flame. I especially appreciate that you spoke about the spirit of the rule.

 

And you're not, it's not like these sites are hard to find. What's frustrating is that people act like going to those other sites is no big deal, when I believe this is a matter that needs to be taken more seriously.

 

I think the best way to approach this is not necessarily forcing people to use Crunchyroll, but at least trying to steer people away from other sites that are less than savory.

[Flame Dragon]

I think the best way to approach this is not necessarily forcing people to use Crunchyroll, but at least trying to steer people away from other sites that are less than savory.

That is really the whole point. I can't make someone use Crunchyroll or sub to Weekly Shonen Jump (you totally should though, the deal is insane), but if someone feels the need to ask "where can I watch Dragon Ball Super" it is better to tell them it is up on Crunchyroll than it is available at ABC.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I'm just going to note that any of the Dailymotion things that came up were in the form of "episode wasn't on usual site, so I found it here" without posting hyperlinks. At the time of writing, those posts (I counted about 2-3 from mid-May 2017) have since been edited to remove referencing outside sites; as well as the offending post that prompted the reminder after the fact.

 

That note at the end should've said "don't name a specific site for where you found this episode/chapter" as opposed to just saying "do not hotlink to it". 

 

I shouldn't have mentioned names in the past, but what's done is done. All that can be done is simply not do it. 
  
====
As it currently stands, both the upcoming anime rules and the general one will be modified to specifically mention this.

 

"Mentioning/linking to an illegal source for media is prohibited anywhere on YCM, including the status bar, PMs and all sections/subforums."

 

Another thing that's being discussed is linking to Crunchyroll or Funimation's homepages as the default for viewing sites in the anime rules, because they are legal.

 

 

Are there other rules that you all feel need to be added for Animation & Graphic Novels specifically?

[Phantom Roxas]

I'm just going to note that any of the Dailymotion things that came up were in the form of "episode wasn't on usual site, so I found it here" without posting hyperlinks. At the time of writing, those posts (I counted about 2-3 from mid-May 2017) have since been edited to remove referencing outside sites; as well as the offending post that prompted the reminder after the fact.

 

That note at the end should've said "don't name a specific site for where you found this episode/chapter" as opposed to just saying "do not hotlink to it". 

 

I shouldn't have mentioned names in the past, but what's done is done. All that can be done is simply not do it. 

  

====

As it currently stands, both the upcoming anime rules and the general one will be modified to specifically mention this.

 

"Mentioning/linking to an illegal source for media is prohibited anywhere on YCM, including the status bar, PMs and all sections/subforums."

 

Another thing that's being discussed is linking to Crunchyroll or Funimation's homepages as the default for viewing sites in the anime rules, because they are legal.

 

 

Are there other rules that you all feel need to be added for Animation & Graphic Novels specifically?

 

I can't recall why prohibiting links was chosen over simply not mentioning sites at all, but I do agree that was a flaw with the original rule. As such, I'm very happy with the proposed revision. If other people wish to discuss that particular issue, I'm fine with that, but for me personally, that revision covers all bases, so I'm free to move on with other issues.

 

I'm not sure if these are really "rules, per se, but I do think we need to be more explicit that Animation & Graphic Novels can cover western animation and comics. So far, it still feels very much like Anime & Manga, with only a hint of things outside of that. Granted, that could just be due to member preferences, but I think something like Marvel cancelling all their GLAAD-nominated books would be better suited for A&GN rather than General. So, a rule that make it clear that similar threads would be permitted within that section might be nice.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Okay since like several mods have already said something it feels weird stepping in. Though I'd like to make something clear for those against the rule.

It doesn't stop people from using the sites. Its easy to find if you search. Similar as its easy to find porn. But it's not something that we want directly put out here. Obviously there likely will be an occasional person mentioning the sites in a status comment that we might miss but the rule isn't there to dictate what people do off site. Just keeps people from encouraging what is basically illegal activities ON the site.

 

It's midnight and I just got my internet back sorry if this is badly worded.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Question

 

What fundamental seperates DM and streaming sites from Mangastream etc?

[Flame Dragon]

Question

 

What fundamental seperates DM and streaming sites from Mangastream etc?

Mangastream etc would be just as "don't tell people to go there" as any other aggregate site. Thats why I specifically named them. Any place that gathers illegal uploads of any media is something we shouldn't be directing people to. I'll also add "for the purpose of watching content uploaded illegally". Lord know youtube has stuff that shouldn't be there, but you are only going to run into a problem if you are directing people to illegal uploads.

[Phantom Roxas]

I would say that nothing separates Dailymotion or similar sites from Mangastream. They're different in the sense that one focuses on anime whereas one focuses on manga, but the fundamentals are still the same: Don't link to it, don't even tell people about it.
 
"Mentioning/linking to an illegal source for media is prohibited anywhere on YCM, including the status bar, PMs and all sections/subforums."

 

"Media" is such a broad term that it could apply to manga as well, so the rule should treat manga sites no differently from anime sites. The current rules made an exception for manga, but given how sites such as Viz Media offer chapters of their series for free, I don't believe a similar exception is necessary anymore.

[~British Soul~]

I'm just going to note that any of the Dailymotion things that came up were in the form of "episode wasn't on usual site, so I found it here" without posting hyperlinks. At the time of writing, those posts (I counted about 2-3 from mid-May 2017) have since been edited to remove referencing outside sites; as well as the offending post that prompted the reminder after the fact.

 

That note at the end should've said "don't name a specific site for where you found this episode/chapter" as opposed to just saying "do not hotlink to it". 

 

I shouldn't have mentioned names in the past, but what's done is done. All that can be done is simply not do it. 

  

====

As it currently stands, both the upcoming anime rules and the general one will be modified to specifically mention this.

 

"Mentioning/linking to an illegal source for media is prohibited anywhere on YCM, including the status bar, PMs and all sections/subforums."

I will also say that I'm guilty of this as well, as I've said "episode wasn't on usual site, so I went elsewhere" on a few occasions and I'm aware that even though I didn't name the sites, it's equally as bad that I had said that, and thus I apologise and will refrain from doing that in the future.

[J-Max]

I will also say that I'm guilty of this as well, as I've said "episode wasn't on usual site, so I went elsewhere" on a few occasions and I'm aware that even though I didn't name the sites, it's equally as bad that I had said that, and thus I apologise and will refrain from doing that in the future.

Saying you watched elsewhere shouldn't be a issue. Saying the source on the other hand.....