Revamping Casual Cards for the Revamped Cardmaker

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

With the changes to the cardmaker coming to fruition (hopefully) in the near future, I think it would be an opportune time to resurface an idea by Black on reforming Casual Cards. It has some other ideas in there, but they're either already implemented and/or irrelevant to this discussion. This suggestion is primarily about making Casual Cards more newcomer-friendly, since at the moment you have all these really big sentences and walls of text that you better have read or you're going to be in so much trouble.

Threads
Fixing the cardmaker is bound to help out with activity, even if a little bit. Casual Cards is an amazing place to harbor these new members as they grow accustomed to, well, the rest of the site. However, this requires a bit of reinventing Casual Cards first. YCM treats its cardmaking section as some sort of academy in which the people there are required to put a lot of effort into making their cards. As a place that encourages good design and balanced cards, this is totally fine... for Advanced Cards. Not everyone wants to go to Cardmaking School, though; some just want to post cards though without a care in the world. As of current, this is... sort of allowed? Sort of not? The section's description says in bold scary letters that the cards have to be BALANCED AND WELL-DESIGNED, and at the same time, this is allowed. Is it balanced? Only from a "balanced and overpowered are antonyms" perspective. It's vastly underpowered, considering the DM era that Blue-Eyes was created in has long since passed. Is it well-designed? I wouldn't call making "Blue-Eyes but a Reptile" well-designed, but my standards are too high. Does it emphasize on making stuff work in the modern era? Lol. Does any of this matter at all? No, it doesn't. The OP wanted to make a card, they did, and then they posted it. This is fine. That's exactly what Casual Cards should become. A place where people can post their cards, no matter how good or bad they are in comparison to the power level of the time, and the description of Casual Cards should be changed to reflect this. You can also merge Joke and Overpowered Cards fully with this section (regardless, get rid of that post requirement) since the aim is to no longer enforce any standards of cardmaking in this section. It seems dead enough to merge without flooding the place with Joke cards. Experimental probably should remain its own section.

Replies
Since we will no longer have requirements to make BALANCED AND WELL-DESIGNED CARDS in this section, it will likewise be fair to ease up on the regulations on replies as well. If people post cards, they're going to want replies. I know the Advanced Clause is to help people improve, but Casual Cards won't be about improvement and easing people into Advanced once it's reformed. Maybe some people just want to say "nice card! :)" without having to recall all the Type and Attribute support that card benefits from, or whether or not there's an existing card that does everything the posted card does, but better. Maybe it's a joke card and they want to mention how funny it is; the Advanced Clause would be kinda silly to enforce for Joke Cards. We do have a Like system for saying "nice card! :)" without posting, but some people want to post it regardless. This happens in another forum I frequent that allows this kind of behavior and has its own Like system, and I believe that YCM wants activity so much that we should let this happen. The aim is to allow Casual Cards to be a more relaxing environment, and having to follow an Advanced Clause interferes with that no matter how easy you make it to follow.

[spoiler=The rules]
As is my intention to lighten up Casual Cards, of course I think there should be some revisions to the rules. A lot of this is just me restating my points, but there's a few other minor adjustments I wanna make too.

• 1: Site rules apply: Kinda mandatory to keep.
• 2: Obey mods: Thought that would've been covered by the site rules but ok. Might want to merge with #1 to reduce the number of rules.
• 3: Design cards properly: Given my suggestions for an overhaul, this would be ditched.
• 4: Accept criticism: This is in a weird spot. I mean, not being receptive of criticism is bad, but this section won't necessarily be for critiques anymore.
• 5: TCG hybrid banlist: Fine.
• 6: Standard/legacy format: Also fine.
• 7: Advanced Clause: I did mention gutting this for the newly reformed Casual Cards.
• 8: Card types: Allowing Divine Beast/DIVINE is good, forcing them to be paired seems unnecessary. Since we're becoming more lenient, might as well let them make monsters DIVINE because they wanted to. Encouraging Fake Types/Attributes to go to Experimental is fine, but I don't really think it's worth making a fuss if someone makes their card a Ninja instead of a Warrior. Definitely have new Summoning mechanics in Experimental. The part about Joke and Overpowered cards might be removed if we're merging it with the main part of the section. Allowing cards that can totally go into Advanced is also definitely fine.
• 9: Card erratas: Seems less of a rule and more of an addition for that pinned Guide thread or something, since we're allowing this (which is good). Would suggest removing and placing someplace else just to reduce the number of rules.
• 10: Posting cards in others' threads: Also fine. Would get rid of the bit about asking them in the thread though since we're easing up on what replies are allowed.
• 11: Multiples vs. Singles: Also fine. Iirc segregating Multiples and Singles was a good idea.
• 12: English: I could've sworn this was in the site rules, but it's not. Seems fine though.
• 13: Card etiquette: Seems a bit silly to enforce this, but it should still be mentioned someplace else as some sort of good manners thing. Maybe that pinned Guide thread. Don't really see a point in banning artless cards aside from them being ugly. A point of this reform is to have less BIG SCARY RULES AHHHHHH, so yeah, let's allow artless cards.
• 14: Keeping archetypes/related cards in one thread: Fine. Not exactly necessary to enforce, but making a card and having people read a bajillion threads for all your interactions would be kinda annoying for everyone else. Even though critiques aren't the big point of the section anymore, I don't think it would be a good idea to make them more annoying to do.
• 15: Auto-locked threads: Fine. There's that bit about refusing to accept critique that, as mentioned with rule #4, I'm not really sure whether or not should stay.
• 16: Card art: Also fine.
• 17: Profanity in cards: Fine-ish. Definitely shouldn't allow racial slurs. I don't really want profanity to be disallowed as well, but concerned parents are gonna be concerned, I guess.
• 18: Necrobumping/multiposting: Seems fine.
• 19: OCG: As with rule #9, I don't really think we need a rule for allowing things.
• 20: Reporting: This is in the site rules, so having it here seems kinda redundant.

This reduces the number of rules from 20 to 11, maybe 12. This goes a long way for letting new members get started posting cards without being overwhelmed by a massive textwall of rules. It's still a lot of text though. :/

Miscellaneous changes

• Change the name of Casual Cards to further signify that it is no longer "Advanced Cards Lite". I like Black's idea of calling it Create A Card.
• When you enter Casual Cards, you immediately meet this giant selection of text about all the rules and that you're in Singles. Making phrases big is a good way of bringing attention to them, but not if everything else is also really big. It also takes up so much of the screen. That should definitely be smaller, maybe remove, like, all of it except for the link to the rules. Yeah, in fact, just have a link to the rules and to the guide thingy. I know they're pinned, but pinned threads are kinda easy to miss in YCM.
• Speaking of the guide, I skimmed over it, and, well, it will need to be redone. Partly to move some of the rules to there, partly because a lot of it will no longer apply, and partly because it looks like it was a superancient Pop Culture Cards guide with some hastily made edits after Pop Culture Cards went away. Maybe make it into a FAQ or something, since we won't need examples of good cards, bad cards, good reviews, or that Fire Princess thread. It shouldn't be this important must-read thing either, that's what the rules are for. And I want it to be really easy to be able to jump into the section. Just some information for people who aren't sure on whether or not their OCG must be absolutely perfect or something I guess. Or maybe the Rules and the FAQ can be in the same thread.
• Hey, cardmaker coding people, is there any way you can make a button that takes people from the cardmaker to the thread-making screen in Casual Cards with the card image already typed out for them? It's not that hard to get there manually but it might encourage people on the cardmaker to get into the community. I don't know, I'm feeling tired now.

[Darj]

I'm totally on board with it being more lax towards the Casual Section and as the opening post states, making it more of a place where card makers can simply share their work without being bound to any kind of standard. Heck, I would go as far as allowing "reviews" or feedback that merely say a X/10 rating. Now, this may look controversial and like taking steps backwards towards what the CC section has stood for during years, but thinking about it, IMO back years the forum could take that "luxury" of going for quality over quantity and strive for higher standards because there was plenty of activity, but nowadays... surely everyone around can see how the activity in the section has diminished. So, getting activity back should be a priority, and that means, becoming more lax with the thread and post requirements. I would rather have 5+ users in Custom Cards posting the usual X/10 ratings or 1~2 word comments over 0~3 users posting meaningful feedback. Of course, I'm not saying that I don't want thoughtful feedback anymore, but personally, at this gloomy state of CC, I would welcome more activity/quantity than quality. Afterwards, when/if activity picks up, then yes, the section can shift to its established advanced clause and "quality over quantity" approach. Besides, Advanced Section would remain for the "pros" and those who actually are interested in getting better at card making. In a way, Casual Section would become the "Misc." of the entire Custom Cards section, and that's not a bad thing, if YCM's very own Misc. section can be taken as example.

[Dova]

aight m9s what do you think you're doing modifying cc while im not looking honestly

 

 

I'm almost entirely for this idea, in all honesty. Good way of properly defining the line between Casual and Advanced, and allowing Cardmakers to post their cards and be pretty sure they'll get at least one comment, and I have no doubt this will boost activity. Particularly the idea of just letting people jump in, without too many rules to read and re-read.

 

I am not inclined to such chaos by nature, but since I don't post in there anyway, at least now I have a valid excuse,

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

When I took over CC in July 2014, one of my plans was to go revamp the Casual Card area (or Pop Culture at the time) because it had a reputation for generating lower quality cards, and obviously some spam comments. Also so users had a place to post stuff without having to worry about the metagame / higher design or for them to get acclimated to standards before they go on to Advanced. 

 

You just need to make them balanced, or otherwise don't INTENTIONALLY break the card. In terms of that Reptile Blue-Eyes, I have no problem with that kind of thing since the BEWD rule is just a convention that the anime imposed on us with Blue-Eyes itself; it is not a hard rule and can certainly be broken. (So yeah, it is permitted)

 

I admit that there are users who just want to post stuff and don't want reviews (and yeah, I've seen a handful of them in the past). Though, I also do not wish to lower the quality of this section by turning it into Miscellaneous.

 

===

So...what are my thoughts on potential changes? 

 

Removal of the Advanced Clause

 

I can probably tone the word/content requirement down, but it will not be removed entirely. We cannot have members spamming the place with one line/word posts, and yeah, it's counterproductive to the work that went into the place over the past couple years.

 

To be fair, I haven't particularly warned anyone for Advanced Clause breaking, least not in a severe capacity (with WP), neither in Casual nor Advanced (though I've given out several verbal warnings). But then again, most you have to do is write a little bit about how you feel and that's it. No need to talk about design aspects, or least in heavier detail.

 

Advanced-level critique in Casual

 

While there's nothing wrong with it (and I tend to review like that in Casual due to spending a lot of time in Advanced), reviews should be toned down to more general design things. I have nothing against making more casual comments though in addition to it. 

 

Merging Joke Cards with the standard area

 

Uh, no. 

 

I can, however, remove the post requirement to actually make threads in Joke Cards. It's there so members can actually contribute some content as opposed to only remaining here to post memes and stuff. I don't really think giving that section its post count back is a good idea, as it does reward you for making bad cards. 

 

Actually, I probably could since there's already the 1 topic per hour rule in there to curb things (and I do have access to the point system now).

 

Cutting down the rulebook

 

Some adjustments are needed, considering it is roughly the same as Advanced, minus some of the other specifics for that area. A lot of things need to be mentioned because either it's not obvious from the forum rulebook (which is also going to be updated in light of recent events) or for quality control.

 

For instance, the rule on advertising your cards in another user's thread is there, because yeah, it is annoying for someone to say "hi rate my stuff" and not give you something. Granted, there is the review request thread where you can ask; that's neutral territory. 

 

I mentioned using the written template (or some derivative of it as you see fit) because in the event Imgur or wherever you upload your cards to is down (and you know this happens), at least we got something to look at. Also because it takes up less bandwidth to load, though I technically upload blank cards (or with filler pics) on my personal Wikia due to lack of suitable images that I like.

 

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Even with the cutting, it's still a lot of text to read, but the section as a whole needs everything spelled out so it's clear what the expectations are. That unfortunately leads to it being large. 

 

Divine-Beast / DIVINE-Attribute pairing

 

I could let this one be more open and not require them to be paired, but at the same time, you shouldn't be tossing either DIVINE or Divine-Beast/Creator God onto a card at random. At least have SOME rationale behind it.

 

At the same time, a few of you have asked that Divine-Beast/DIVINE be permitted in ADVANCED because of True Name and the other supports, despite the whole concept of the God cards being these special things that are a class above all (but didn't we ditch this concept after 5Ds / the Nordic gods which got changed to standard Types/Attributes).

 

Fake Types

 

I don't mind them being used, but whether or not it's a good idea to permit them in the regular area as opposed to keeping them in Experimental needs to be looked over. Wouldn't really hurt too much. 

 

Custom mechanics should stay in Experimental. As to whether/not Dark Synchro, Speed Spells, etc (in terms of anime stuff) should be let into standard as well remains to be seen. 

 

Member critique

 

Going back to the above, yeah, I concede the fact that certain members just want to post their works and not care about comments, but there are users who do want to get better. Not necessarily to go to Advanced one day, but get some perspective on how to improve on their own.

 

The point of Casual is to encourage improvement.

 

====

 

Am I willing to at least do something to address the userbase who don't want critique on their works, and just make it a "gallery"? Yeah, I can look into it with some options. 

 

1. [Gallery] tag: Similar to some of the already existing ones for this section like Legacy/Standard, this would basically mean that any threads with this tag don't get commented in. Or I can waive the Advanced Clause in this one, outside of the usual spam rules.

 

2. Separate subsection: I'm honestly against this one because it's more separation than needed, even though it wouldn't require tagging like option 1 does.

 

Fixing the guide

 

Yeah, this was originally written when Casual was still Pop Culture; again, as a way to refine the section from turning into a trash can for bad design. It was mostly intended on a general guide of survival in CC. 

 

Might make a new thread entirely with FAQs.

 

Overall intent of the section

 

How many times have I said this over the years?

 

Casual is intended to be a section where you can post stuff without having to deal with the meta / competitive design. I am not reverting this to its pre-2014 status where you can throw whatever, but yeah, standards should be much lighter compared to Advanced.

 

However, you should at least show us that SOME effort was put into your work. As much as I'd like to make it more accessible to the newer members, there still has to be some standards outside the obvious. 

 

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And yeah, even I'd like more activity in Custom Cards in general, both from new users and even a couple of veterans who don't go in here. That's partially why I had that event thing during Halloween and all; try to get fresh blood in the area.

====

 

Will have to see how to implement changes while keeping some basic standards in place.

[Sleepy]

I'm personally on board with this thread's idea.

 

-Yeah the big letters might get some attention at first but one eventually gets used to moving the screen down without re-reading every time, and it becomes just as easy to forget they are actually there. If Sticky threads were slightly bigger and a different color, that'd help a lot. I sometimes have mistook sticky threads with regular threads with polls before entering them.

 

-Jokes lost part of their charm the moment they got segregated years ago. Yeah it is kind of spam, but if you can't prank some people into clicking it is almost not worth it, and I personally don't go out of my way to that section to look for people's safely placed jokes. I don't think post count is all that important as to be protected from this, or that activity will go nearly dangerously enough to make it a problem if it got mixed in.

 

-Casual is very similar to Advanced. Pretty much minus the need to post an explanation of your card. This somehow causes most of the activity to be on Advanced. I stuck to posting in Casual for the longest time because I thought it bad to post non-current-meta-relevant cards at Advanced, but people post for casual themes in Advanced as well so..... I'm in for allowing casual to be sort of misc-esque.

 

I wanna invite people to visit this thread I made 9 years ago: "Silent Magician LV12"

Look at the average quality of content from back when I joined the site. You might even recognize some well known members throughout the 8 pages of comments. Many one-liner spam-ish posts and rating comments throughout. All in all 99% of this thread's posts are unacceptable garbage for today's standards.

I don't think it's too bad though. Members might post badly when they are new, but it gets them involved in the community and eventually they do improve.

The current rules do ask for a minimum standard that many of us didn't really have ourselves when we were new, as insultingly low as one might say the bar is in terms of restrictions.

If the bar is so low that it barely does something in an already sort of dying site, and its result is potentially giving off the illusion of being more strict with a longer list of rules, I believe it wouldn't harm to try it. Nothing irreversible would come of it and no fingers should be pointed regardless of the result.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

You just need to make them balanced, or otherwise don't INTENTIONALLY break the card. In terms of that Reptile Blue-Eyes, I have no problem with that kind of thing since the BEWD rule is just a convention that the anime imposed on us with Blue-Eyes itself; it is not a hard rule and can certainly be broken. (So yeah, it is permitted)

That's good, but the point was that the section description implies that such a card would not be allowed. Well, was.

  

Removal of the Advanced Clause

 

I can probably tone the word/content requirement down, but it will not be removed entirely. We cannot have members spamming the place with one line/word posts, and yeah, it's counterproductive to the work that went into the place over the past couple years.

 

To be fair, I haven't particularly warned anyone for Advanced Clause breaking, least not in a severe capacity (with WP), neither in Casual nor Advanced (though I've given out several verbal warnings). But then again, most you have to do is write a little bit about how you feel and that's it. No need to talk about design aspects, or least in heavier detail.

The Advanced Clause is already easy enough to follow. The issue I see it having is that it can be intimidating to people who are not already familiar with it. If we do go through with abolishing all of the design standards, then enforcing the Advanced Clause would then require users to put considerably more effort in replies than they would have to with posting cards.

 

Merging Joke Cards with the standard area

 

Uh, no. 

 

I can, however, remove the post requirement to actually make threads in Joke Cards. It's there so members can actually contribute some content as opposed to only remaining here to post memes and stuff. I don't really think giving that section its post count back is a good idea, as it does reward you for making bad cards. 

 

Actually, I probably could since there's already the 1 topic per hour rule in there to curb things (and I do have access to the point system now).

Post count isn't really a reward, more a symbol of your presence on the forum. To avoid confusing new members, and to give them a sense of progression (however trivial), I think that posts in Joke Cards (+ Revamped Casual Cards should that happen) should be enabled.

 

Points are a reward, however, as you can cash them in for stuff. It should be easy to have Advanced Cards offer more than Casual Cards. (In fact, doesn't it already do so?)

 

I mentioned using the written template (or some derivative of it as you see fit) because in the event Imgur or wherever you upload your cards to is down (and you know this happens), at least we got something to look at. Also because it takes up less bandwidth to load, though I technically upload blank cards (or with filler pics) on my personal Wikia due to lack of suitable images that I like.

The written template is fine; it's that posting artless cards doesn't seem to be an action worthy of punishment. The point about increased bandwidth makes sense, though from my experience, they aren't that big of an issue. Videos are more of a problem, and those are totally fine.

 

Even with the cutting, it's still a lot of text to read, but the section as a whole needs everything spelled out so it's clear what the expectations are. That unfortunately leads to it being large.

I'm wondering if someone could go through and rephrase the rules so that they would be a lot easier to digest.

 

Fake Types

 

I don't mind them being used, but whether or not it's a good idea to permit them in the regular area as opposed to keeping them in Experimental needs to be looked over. Wouldn't really hurt too much. 

 

Custom mechanics should stay in Experimental. As to whether/not Dark Synchro, Speed Spells, etc (in terms of anime stuff) should be let into standard as well remains to be seen.

We're basically saying the same thing here; it's just that I think that posting fake Types in the main section is such a minor offense that it wouldn't require any moderation most of the time.

 

Member critique

 

Going back to the above, yeah, I concede the fact that certain members just want to post their works and not care about comments, but there are users who do want to get better. Not necessarily to go to Advanced one day, but get some perspective on how to improve on their own.

 

The point of Casual is to encourage improvement.

I don't have a well-kept record of every incident in which someone didn't accept criticism, but I do remember there are a lot of cases in which the cardmaker who didn't accept criticism would become ostracized by the community and ran off of the forum. Was trying to figure out if something can be done to reduce or eliminate this, without barring criticism from being posted in Casual altogether. That'd be horrible.

 

Am I willing to at least do something to address the userbase who don't want critique on their works, and just make it a "gallery"? Yeah, I can look into it with some options. 

 

1. [Gallery] tag: Similar to some of the already existing ones for this section like Legacy/Standard, this would basically mean that any threads with this tag don't get commented in. Or I can waive the Advanced Clause in this one, outside of the usual spam rules.

A large part of this thread is to reduce the number or rules and whatnot to make it easier for new members to jump into the section, and adding a rule for a [Gallery] tag would go against that. As much as a preemptive statement that the cardmaker doesn't want to be criticized would be good, it also shouldn't be necessary.

 

2. Separate subsection: I'm honestly against this one because it's more separation than needed, even though it wouldn't require tagging like option 1 does.

This also adds to the number of rules to be read before joining the section, and I think the extra separation would also be a little intimidating.

 

Overall intent of the section

 

How many times have I said this over the years?

 

Casual is intended to be a section where you can post stuff without having to deal with the meta / competitive design. I am not reverting this to its pre-2014 status where you can throw whatever, but yeah, standards should be much lighter compared to Advanced.

 

However, you should at least show us that SOME effort was put into your work. As much as I'd like to make it more accessible to the newer members, there still has to be some standards outside the obvious.

I'm not seeing the absolute necessity for there to be design standards for Casual Cards that you see. YCM has expressed concerns for activity many times lately, to the point where it seems that the memberbase would not mind sacrificing quality for more activity. I'm concerned that design standards would come into conflict with some of the new users, and they might be more willing to leave than to be told to "make better cards". As much as you don't want to turn it into Misc., Misc. has done very well for activity. Again, members who want to improve have Advanced Cards. Let them improve if they want to, not if you want them to.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Let's go through the list.
 
1. I changed the description so yeah, you can just post to your heart's content. Just don't INTENTIONALLY break the card (as in make it so obvious that anyone can tell you put no effort in balancing). 
 
2. Boiled down, the Advanced Clause basically is "just don't make a short `10/10` post and run off". You can still do it, but just write something else besides that. Maybe just have the word requirement and don't worry about it reflecting actual card design.
 
3. Well, both sections do have review redemption with similar values. Only thing is most people tend to use the Advanced one more often. 
 
4. To be honest, I haven't penalized members if they posted pictureless cards, as yeah, it's trivial as hell. Most they get is just a reminder post to just write things out.
 
It's just a lot easier to modify the card in written form if you need to make changes, as opposed to reuploading through the cardmaker or TCGEditor / remaking template, etc. That's also why written effects under the card is requested; backup plan in case pic is dead and so we can read things (either if members view on mobile and/or have vision issues).
 
You can't expect someone to read 6-8+ lines off the card pic at standard size, and I've seen users over the years post cards with this much text / not write it below. 
 
5. Can go rewrite them so it's easier to read, though things do need to be spelled out so there are no loopholes that can be exploited. Then again, it should already be written at a level that most users understand, just that it's formatted like a lab report and stuff. 
 
6. Letting Fake Types in will be fine, though that's usually for video game characters and stuff. At the same time, they'd probably come up with better Type names to fit the monsters who sorta don't fit in their existing molds. 
 
7. Idea is not to ostracize them for not shaping up.
 
You don't have to agree with the criticism or make changes pertaining to card design (if it's an image issue and I request it changed, then you have to), but just be able to acknowledge the comments maturely. Don't say "screw you" and act like a 5-year old about the matter. 
 
Granted, most of the incidents where people refused criticism happened more in 2015-2016, and weren't that many. I know one user in 2016 said "thanks but no thanks" when given reviews. To be fair, I don't recall any new members throwing a fit about getting CnC recently when they didn't want it. A few members just never logged on again, or took a long gap.
 
8. I'd like to be able to cater to members who do want reviews, and those who just want to showcase their work without getting critiqued. Show of hands, how many new members just want to post stuff and not get reviews?
 
(I mean, if you make something with obvious design flaws, you are going to get members telling you off for that.)
 
9. In terms of Miscellaneous, I don't want the type of spam comments that comes up at times in there. Granted, there are more fleshed out posts in there on certain occasions, but you know about the shortposts, meme reactions, etc.
 
Oh heck, even Rag-style posts (you guys still remember him, right?) would be fine for Casual.
 
Don't treat Casual like the status bar / Discord and shitpost with 1-2 words / solely reaction pics, emoji spam.
 
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At this point, things that will be definitely changed (at least things that we can least mutually agree on)

• Just reduce the Advanced Clause so it's easier on users, but keep some standard on it so place doesn't devolve into pure shitposting.
• Allow Fake Types into standard Casual Cards.
• Condense the rulebook a bit. (At present, it is patterned off Advanced due to the common rules they share, and to keep rules consistent across boundaries, but yeah.)
• Fix the announcements at top of forums (mostly there because some members still don't know we have a Multiples section, though it's not a pain in the ass to move [i do have a new mod tool that does it in an instant without the manual move process])
  • Keep the rulebook and the format reminder.
    • That being said, how many of you still design for ARC-V or have you all moved onto VRAINS-savvy design? I'd probably suspect newer users to design with ARC-V in mind, seeing as we don't have VRAINS dubbed yet. 

I already changed the description, so not mentioning this.
 
Things that still need to be ironed out (or I'm iffy about doing)

• How to address users who genuinely want critique, and those who just want to post freely, without adding on more rules.
  • Right now, tagging is more/less the only option; unless it's mandated that members just mention they don't want critique/comments in their threads within opening post, and then everyone else has to respect it.
  • Though in this case, members wanting people to comment at their stuff, yet not wanting critique is contradictory.
    • I cannot punish users if they do give a review and TC only wanted a compliment post. However, I CAN punish the TC if they act like a little kid instead of kindly saying "thank you for the comment" or liking the post and moving on. 
• Letting Joke Cards run with the regular stuff.
  • I can at least remove the hidden last post thing from the section though, and the post requirement.
    • Or I can let you guys gain points for posting in there, but leave post count off. (I need to check if you can get points in a forum despite the post count being turned off). Then again, shop is still busted so not much you can do with points save for buying member groups and stuff.

I just need to figure out how to cut down the rulebook so it's easier to read, but still retains what I need to hold Casual Cards to, even with the changes.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Casual can definitely still be against spam, but I don't really think it should be against one liners that are still relevant to the card being posted. If there's a thread for a Naruto card, for example, and someone posts that they think that it's cool that someone is making a Naruto card, I don't think that should really be penalized outside of obvious cases of someone just trying to abuse the system. Even if it doesn't add, well, anything besides some really generic praise. If they were to go onto the same thread and say something about a certain episode of the show, then yeah, definitely spam.

 

Having people state whether or not they want criticism in their opening post is probably the best solution at the moment, but I still think I have to stress that it shouldn't be mandatory upon the opening post. If someone were to post a card, then get criticized and then decide that this isn't what they want, they should be allowed to change their mind then and there. The person who posted the comment shouldn't then be punished for it, of course; none of this is suggesting that criticisms be dealt away with entirely.

[HulkTySSJ2]

If someone just wants to say "good cards", that should be fine. They don't need to post a lot or full reviews of anything.
Simplicity keeps newer members returning.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Ultimately, I still hold the final decision in how to address the matter, but I will say that I read over the suggestions and adapting things accordingly. 

 

Still working out how to adapt the rulebook to say things, as it is still a fair chunk of rules that I still have to enforce, even with the lowered Advanced Clause thing (I wouldn't really call it this, but more of posting standards so Casual retains some quality in posting) and opening a few things.

 

====

Changes you can expect to see at least before the second week of January 2018. 

 

1. Design intent of Casual Cards being freer than it currently is (instead of Advanced-lite).

 

To be fair, you were always able to post cards freely; just that the section description gave impressions that you had to be up to date with the current game. Well, exceptions being that:

1. Fake Types/stuff were split into Experimental with new summon mechanics, so we wouldn't have to deal with ruling issues or something. (And yeah, CC is still patterned on actual game).
2. Divine-Beast stuff had to be thought through [well, not really enforced but on the member to not toss it onto something random]
3. Obviously on member to balance it themselves, and not make it blatantly obvious that it's busted.

Fake Types / Attributes will be allowed in the standard area (once the new rules are in place, and threads made on the day of the changes), though new summon mechanics and stuff remains in Experimental because of ruling stuff. Or let's say in a couple months we get a new Link thing (and the inevitable new series, new summon mechanic) and we're still fuzzy on how this will work out. You should use Experimental for that until more details are confirmed, but it depends.  

 

I'm still working out how to deal with the Divine-Beast / DIVINE pairing, but really, these shouldn't be spammed on without thinking about it carefully (even if you're not required to pair them).

 

As for third thing, you still have to balance your stuff out (and that goes across the entire CC boundary), but it's being generalized to not INTENTIONALLY breaking the card or making it so obvious that it's busted / poorly designed (It's obvious even to a novice cardmaker that there are major flaws in design.)

 

2. Advanced Clause / posting standards getting reduced

 

Like I noted earlier in the thread, while you won't have to write 30+ words with some degree of card design involved in it, you still have to flesh out your compliment posts and stuff. Limit will be set at 10 words minimum and should be written in proper sentences.

 

All of you should be capable of writing out what you like about the card or fleshing out compliments, right? Even new members should be able to.

 

Do not treat Casual Cards like the status bar / Discord, etc.

 

Advanced-level critique is still allowed, but ideally members should tone down their level of critique for Casual and not go into more design-oriented stuff (least the heavier bits). Unrelated stuff to the card itself, like mentioning sub/dub differences, will be treated as spam and punished accordingly, and I did give WP to a veteran member for doing this earlier in the year.

 

3. Rulebook being condensed a bit.

 

While I'll try to shrink it a bit more than the 20 rule thing I have now, it will inevitably remain somewhat large due to the things that have to be spelled out and specifics that deviate from the general site stuff. This includes, but not limited to...

• Bumping standard (I may consider some changes for the general bumping time, but need to see what would be an appropriate number. A concern here is certain members legitimately bumping their threads several days in a row, and no one looks.)
• What constitutes a necrobump
• Image policies (though it should be uniform with the site-wide one)
• What's permitted in the section. 
• Our brand of Advanced Clause / posting standards. 
• Format stuff (though most of you already design for the TCG format anyway, which is the standard for all of CC), and obvious note for members to respect these tags. (i.e. Don't talk about Link interactions in a Legacy thread)

Along with the reminder to follow the rules, that's already 4-5 that are mandatory for keeping.

 

The rule about English typing should be in the general rules because it applies everywhere, but yeah, that's mentioned because I've seen cases where members post stuff in German and stuff without translation [albeit rare nowadays].

 

Posting in your native language is perfectly fine, but you need to provide translation in English (doesn't have to be perfect, and can be Google Translated). Just don't assume that members can read Portuguese/Spanish/German, etc. fluently. 

 

(But seriously, the rules are easy to follow; just that the explanations are long. They need to be given so you know what is expected and there are no discrepancies if I do have to intervene in a thread for whatever reason.)

 

====

Sample written template can be moved to another post in the rulebook or something, but really, I don't care how you do it, provided you got the required info beneath. Picture-less cards won't be banned per say, but you're encouraged to just write it out as it is easier to fix those than regenerating cards. 

 

Then again, you technically have to post written data underneath anyway, so... As I noted before, don't assume members will be willing / able to read directly off the pic and there've been a few users who have assumed.

 

Rule about remaking cards can be shifted into preceding one, as erratas are certainly welcome in the section.

====

 

Above are the definitive changes I have in terms of the new rules. Things I still need to work on is addressing members who just post stuff and don't want to be criticized. 

 

For right now, it'll probably remain as-is, and will be up to the creator to take critique / comments maturely and not blow a fuse if someone doesn't say "good job". I won't punish members for giving a civil review but the thread creator decided to act like a little kid and take it as an insult; it'll be the thread creator who gets punished. But yeah, reviewers can still be penalized if they engage in attacks on a member's design, their personality or so forth.

 

 

==============

I wrote a lot about the forecoming changes and why the rulebook is still going to remain rather big, even with the edits, but yeah, take this as a note that I read over this thread and am going to change stuff. 

 

At the moment, Joke Cards is open to all members. 

[I Hate Snatch Steal]

I do feel that Sakura's right that we need at least some design standards outside of the joke card section. People who are genuinely interested in card making won't want to navigate around too many spam threads and its those people who will be good members down the road.

 

As an aside, I personally feel that Sakura has had great ideas for CaC since the beginning such as dividing sections by quality and intent rather then by pop culture or not, and is also very devoted to his section. He just happened to take over when activity was lower so people think previous mod teams were better. This could be due to outside issues such as our anti-spam bot measures being too strict or the cardmaker being out of date or something, but on paper his policies are better ones then we've had before IMO.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

At the same time, I do have to make it a bit easier to navigate Casual Cards because right now, both sections run essentially the same. While the idea is to make Casual more newbie friendly, I do have to enforce quality control (least the bare minimum).

 

Back then, yeah, there wasn't a specific place for non-Pop Culture cards or stuff that wasn't really competitive, except maybe AoC. And yeah, no quality control in Pop Culture. I really don't know why Pop Culture was separated in the old days, or some other things that happened between the end of 2011 and late September 2013 (except for the Multiple splitting in general). 

 

=====

I'd like more activity in CC (and even YCM in general too from newer members), but reasons for lowered activity are probably:

• Bar for Casual being relatively high, and requiring some degree of card design knowledge [or what's going on now with modern releases]. Also the rule that requires you to take critique/improve; moreso on the former.
  • Also the post requirement to get into Joke Cards.
• Cardmaker being busted (which we know about, but can't do much about for various reasons). If anyone wants to bring this up, don't.
  • You guys know written cards are acceptable, because we're all aware of the cardmaker's shortcomings and also finding good art. 
• Community in general.
• Opinion of Yugioh, because there's a lot of things that players don't agree with that Konami did.
• How members react to critique and so forth.
  • This is more on users either being ungrateful for members taking time to actually look at their stuff (either not saying thank you directly, liking their posts or review their stuff in return, if any), not considering critique for various reasons and/or being aggressive towards other users for suggesting certain things.
    • Latter has been seen a fair bit in Advanced this past year; not so much with Casual from my recollection.
  • If members want critique, you need to show that you're grateful for getting comments and ultimately be receptive to feedback you get.
    • Don't take them as personal attacks on your cardmaking [though in the past, some members DID review in a way that would be classed as such].
      • Like I noted above, don't throw a tantrum just because a member gave you actual critique and not a simple compliment. We're trying to give you pointers, but if you don't want to listen, then it's on you.
    • For reviewers, don't throw the metagame book at newbies because yeah, not everyone knows what goes on competitively or understands it to the same degree as you. Advanced-level critique is permitted, but just tone it down to more general applications. 

Looking things over, I may have to leave Joke Cards as its own separate area due to the quality of stuff that goes in there, and because joke cards from non-YGO games also go in there (despite their rarity in CC altogether). 

 

=====

Like I noted earlier, the rulebook for this section is still going to be big, even with a few of the things being clipped like the Advanced Clause. You still have to flesh out posts, but lower word requirement (you guys can write 10-15 words, right?) and doesn't have to mention proper design things. 

 

About half of it has to stay in because, yeah, things that need to be spelled out so you understand what the expectations are for Casual (or CC in general, for parts of it). 

 

I'm working on the new rule draft right now. (Big announcements should be modified too)

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Lost internet for about 10 days, then took a few more to get around to posting here. Not going to comment on the changes that weren't implemented the way I wanted since that's going to go nowhere forever.

 

You mentioned you'd modify the big announcements, but they're still kinda big. I also guess you're still working on the FAQ/guide since that's not updated yet. That said, are some of the things that will be in the FAQ-ish thingy in the rules, since there are still a few places where you have things that I guess would rather be in the FAQ thingy. Such as half of rule 6, mentioning that Divine Beast/DIVINE is allowed to be separate from one another now. You also mentioned rule 9 (post in English) should be a site-wide rule, and as such would be redundant here. For rule 10, the silly thing to include in the rules was the formatting for written cards, which you might do once the guide's put up.

 

I do feel that Sakura's right that we need at least some design standards outside of the joke card section. People who are genuinely interested in card making won't want to navigate around too many spam threads and its those people who will be good members down the road.

 

As an aside, I personally feel that Sakura has had great ideas for CaC since the beginning such as dividing sections by quality and intent rather then by pop culture or not, and is also very devoted to his section. He just happened to take over when activity was lower so people think previous mod teams were better. This could be due to outside issues such as our anti-spam bot measures being too strict or the cardmaker being out of date or something, but on paper his policies are better ones then we've had before IMO.

If people are interested in bettering their cardmaking abilities, that is exactly what Advanced Cards is for. The changes I'm proposing to Casual is to give a space to the members who are not interested in this. Joke and Overpowered doesn't quite work for the members who are making cards that are neither, yet are also not willing to devote so much to becoming a good cardmaker.

 

There are a number of factors as to why the site's activity is lower, but this thread is about capitalizing on an upcoming event to hopefully further increase and keep activity. Those policies were made to address a different set of problems than the ones I'm aiming to address here, and it doesn't do anyone any favors to go around pointing fingers.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

At this point, I might just redo the guide entirely instead of actually rewriting the older model from 2014. Because yeah, that was designed shortly after I took over the reins for CC and then modified slightly after the initial change to Casual Cards from Pop Culture. Likely the only stuff I'd keep around from that guide is basically the part about taking criticism appropriately and not acting like a little kid over it.

 

(Or I can just leave a reference link to the old guide in the newer one. Better to keep the FAQs separate because the rulebook is already massive as-is.)

 

Announcement-wise, it's mostly: (1) When the rules were updated, (2) Reminder about the format tags and (3) What part of CC they are in (mostly for singles). I suppose (3) can be removed, but it still needs to be big enough to see. 

 

I'd leave it as a section announcement, but some members don't read those either, hence why the message is copy/pasted in 24-size font at the top.

 

=====

As for other stuff.

 

1. I might need to leave the note about DIVINE / Divine-Beast in there, but need to fix the wording that says "you MUST" to say "you SHOULD" think about whether/not a card deserves to be this. 

 

2. Rule 9 will be shifted to the general rules later on; right now, there are some other things that need addressing there. Though, there is no rule saying that your card names cannot be in other languages (but you otherwise provide the rest of the card details / post in English)

 

3. Rule 10 can be moved to the new guide later. General idea is that members need to not assume that we can read their stuff off the image, and make sure there's something for us to read if images do go down. Also a lot easier to modify written details than uploading a new version of the card.

 

 

Yeah, I am aware that you guys did want me to drop the Advanced Clause entirely for the section, but I already noted that I cannot do that without turning the section into a spamhole. At the least, I did remove the card design thing and lowered the word count by half. 

 

=====

Can probably look into this in a couple hours (or least start drafting the new FAQ stuff), as I do have a 2-hour break before my afternoon class today. The rules are mostly common sense stuff and otherwise pretty simple to follow, but things that do need to be mentioned so there's no discrepancies if something is amiss. They're not intended to scare newbies.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

At this point, I might just redo the guide entirely instead of actually rewriting the older model from 2014. Because yeah, that was designed shortly after I took over the reins for CC and then modified slightly after the initial change to Casual Cards from Pop Culture. Likely the only stuff I'd keep around from that guide is basically the part about taking criticism appropriately and not acting like a little kid over it.

 

(Or I can just leave a reference link to the old guide in the newer one. Better to keep the FAQs separate because the rulebook is already massive as-is.)

Definitely rewrite the entire thing. The current one looks awkward because it wasn't made from scratch. Way too many unedited parts that give away that it was once a guide for something else.

 

Announcement-wise, it's mostly: (1) When the rules were updated, (2) Reminder about the format tags and (3) What part of CC they are in (mostly for singles). I suppose (3) can be removed, but it still needs to be big enough to see.

 

I'd leave it as a section announcement, but some members don't read those either, hence why the message is copy/pasted in 24-size font at the top.

If members are posting in the wrong parts of Casual Cards often enough for a reminder to be necessary, then it should probably stay. Vrains has been out for a while now, hasn't it? You can probably take that one down. After all, it'll still be mentioned in the rules. The link to the rules and its last update is fine, but the accompanying text can totally be shrunk or removed altogether. It would bring more attention to certain parts of the announcements if some parts were in larger fonts than others, and it'd make it take up less space, too.

 

1. I might need to leave the note about DIVINE / Divine-Beast in there, but need to fix the wording that says "you MUST" to say "you SHOULD" think about whether/not a card deserves to be this.

Then it's not a rule, it's just a suggestion. YCM has no business in sacralizing DIVINE/Divine Beast anyway. Doing so just puts yet another regulation in place that would only get in someone's way, with no benefit.

 

3. Rule 10 can be moved to the new guide later. General idea is that members need to not assume that we can read their stuff off the image, and make sure there's something for us to read if images do go down. Also a lot easier to modify written details than uploading a new version of the card.

That's... not what I was talking about. I was saying move the template for written cards to the guide. Just the part that's in a quote. That.

 

Yeah, I am aware that you guys did want me to drop the Advanced Clause entirely for the section, but I already noted that I cannot do that without turning the section into a spamhole. At the least, I did remove the card design thing and lowered the word count by half.

Why bring this up after I already mentioned that you won't ever change your mind on this? I mean, I still think turning it into the spamhole you dread would be a good thing, or at least better than it is now, for the sake of forum activity. But it's clear there's no use in going down this venue since you'll never change your mind on it. :/

[Icy]

I feel like adding my 0.02 USD into this.

 

The Advanced Clause when written and enforced was never intended to apply to all members. It was intended to apply to members who knew better. Not newbies in other words.

One cannot expect a child or person discovering an old passion to be up to date with the game at all, so you should not hold them to this standard you catch up with later anyway.

Sure we did testing with like 5 people to come up with what a healthy reply would constitute and average out what we came up with but again. Above.

 

 

 

Yeah, I am aware that you guys did want me to drop the Advanced Clause entirely for the section, but I already noted that I cannot do that without turning the section into a spamhole. At the least, I did remove the card design thing and lowered the word count by half. 

 

It wouldn't be a Spamhole and wasn't under the original conditions. Your preconceived notions and possible limited experience before panic told you wrong. Maybe other members can't change your mind, but I can try.

And besides, it's entry level into the site as someone stated above. You want a little bit of spam. You want those quiet little bare bones posts from new members encouraging each other. Gets them to post more, do more, participate more on their own terms not ours. And that is important.

 

If anyone wants me to add a little more than a dollar to this I will. But I feel this was the most important bit (next to another rule I have a huge bone to pick over) and I had to put it somewhere.