Enguin's Ban

[Dad]

Ducks being allow to make and laugh at Deadpools off colored holocaust jokes seems to be the main one

You're not answering my question.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You're not answering my question.

Your question dosesnt make sense. I'm asking you why mods should be held to a lighter standard, see enguin and Zai.

[Dad]

The quote of me saying "that's right jabroni" was taken from a joke thread i made in misc. Zai just happened to be in it. Then we equated this quote to me mocking the deaths of Jews in the holocaust.

 

Once again, if that is true, I have no reason to change my mind on this ban.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The quote of me saying "that's right jabroni" was taken from a joke thread i made in misc. Zai just happened to be in it. Then we equated this quote to me mocking the deaths of Jews in the holocaust.

 

Once again, if that is true, I have no reason to change my mind on this ban.

Two completely different matters. I find your use of the word "jabroni" off color, but I don't think you intend harm by it or mean to glorify slavery or the travesties done against Black Americans. 

 

I likewise don't think Enguin was glorifying the death of Jews (unlike Shard). It was an attempt at gallows humor and a number of people found it funny to a degree

 

---

 

Zai:

 

Laughed at Deadpool's Holocaust joke and mentioned how he as a jew lives for them. The also said a different time that jews make the best holocaust jokes. In eithercase, there was a distinct standard for a mod and a user that is not acceptable 

 

---

 

Again, there was literally a person in a thread that mods happily participated in yesterday, who made even cruder holocaust jokes than Enguin's comment. The only difference is not an admitted hostility towards that member among the mod team 

[Dad]

Two completely different matters. I find your use of the word "jabroni" off color, but I don't think you intend harm by it or mean to glorify slavery or the travesties done against Black Americans. 

 

I likewise don't think Enguin was glorifying the death of Jews (unlike Shard). It was an attempt at gallows humor and a number of people found it funny to a degree

 

---

 

Zai:

 

Laughed at Deadpool's Holocaust joke and mentioned how he as a jew lives for them. The also said a different time that jews make the best holocaust jokes. In eithercase, there was a distinct standard for a mod and a user that is not acceptable 

 

---

 

Again, there was literally a person in a thread that mods happily participated in yesterday, who made even cruder holocaust jokes than Enguin's comment. The only difference is not an admitted hostility towards that member among the mod team

 

If you worried about punishments for everyone involved, don't. We're discussing punishments for it already. The question is how severe.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you worried about punishments for everyone involved, don't. We're discussing punishments for it already. The question is how severe.

So Zai's ban is on the way I take it?

 

I am worried about punishment, but not in the draconian way you want it to be used. I think it's perfectly possible to disagree with something said and start lynching them for that disagreement 

[evilfusion]

Winter, stop. You're not helping your case. You keep trying to redirect attention to Zai, as if this in any way would ever help you defend Enguin's behavior.

 

Also, you're so blatantly against Zai in general that you're undermining your own "equal standards" point by trying to direct attention to the person you so obviously despise, and in such a flimsy manner.

 

Discord was NEVER YCM-enforceable. I constantly reiterated this - Discord does not matter when it comes to forum punishments unless the drama leaks onto the forum.

 

Also, if anyone is trying to draw a parallel between Winter getting off permaban and someone else receiving one...it would not do to overlook that Winter had an extensive history of mods turning a blind eye to his offenses, and then slamming down punishment all at once. And this happened A LOT, to the point that we set a new procedure to avoid this sort of bias. And when the permaban happened, it later came to attention that we STILL hadn't followed the procedure that existed for the specific purpose of not going from 0 to 100.

 

And even then, the innumerable offenses and lack of character change justified a ban ranging for several months.

 

NOW...I have no idea what has actually happened in this particular case. So my input on that specifically doesn't actually matter. I only bothered to post to comment on how frustrating it is to try and read some of this discussion, because it reads as if Winter thinks Enguin shouldn't be banned at all, that mods have no right to crack down on behavior regarding potentially offensive jokes to entire groups of people (there IS a line where tasteless jokes go too far), and that frequent misbehavior by a member with no change involved should just be tolerated, or the mods are abusing their power.

 

Which is BS. Unless you can argue that the mods have an EXTENSIVE history of ignoring Enguin's misbehavior and then blindsiding him with ridiculous punishments, it's hard to say there's any real vendetta. Just because it parallels Winter's sudden permaban doesn't mean that Enguin got permabanned because he criticized a mod, with some "flimsy" justification to mask the mods' TRUE motivation.

 

And Winter...if the mods want to permaban members because of being criticized or whatnot...how long do you expect to hang around, considering this thread? Food for thought.

 

*cue ominous laughter*

 

*cough* I just woke up, if you can't tell.

 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Winter, stop. You're not helping your case. You keep trying to redirect attention to Zai, as if this in any way would ever help you defend Enguin's behavior.

 

Also, you're so blatantly against Zai in general that you're undermining your own "equal standards" point by trying to direct attention to the person you so obviously despise, and in such a flimsy manner.

 

Discord was NEVER YCM-enforceable. I constantly reiterated this - Discord does not matter when it comes to forum punishments unless the drama leaks onto the forum.

 

Also, if anyone is trying to draw a parallel between Winter getting off permaban and someone else receiving one...it would not do to overlook that Winter had an extensive history of mods turning a blind eye to his offenses, and then slamming down punishment all at once. And this happened A LOT, to the point that we set a new procedure to avoid this sort of bias. And when the permaban happened, it later came to attention that we STILL hadn't followed the procedure that existed for the specific purpose of not going from 0 to 100.

 

And even then, the innumerable offenses and lack of character change justified a ban ranging for several months.

 

NOW...I have no idea what has actually happened in this particular case. So my input on that specifically doesn't actually matter. I only bothered to post to comment on how frustrating it is to try and read some of this discussion, because it reads as if Winter thinks Enguin shouldn't be banned at all, that mods have no right to crack down on behavior regarding potentially offensive jokes to entire groups of people (there IS a line where tasteless jokes go too far), and that frequent misbehavior by a member with no change involved should just be tolerated, or the mods are abusing their power.

 

Which is BS. Unless you can argue that the mods have an EXTENSIVE history of ignoring Enguin's misbehavior and then blindsiding him with ridiculous punishments, it's hard to say there's any real vendetta. Just because it parallels Winter's sudden permaban doesn't mean that Enguin got permabanned because he criticized a mod, with some "flimsy" justification to mask the mods' TRUE motivation.

 

And Winter...if the mods want to permaban members because of being criticized or whatnot...how long do you expect to hang around, considering this thread? Food for thought.

 

*cue ominous laughter*

 

*cough* I just woke up, if you can't tell.

If it wasn't clear, I don't want Zai banned, I'm just curious why it was ok for him to make holocaust jokes, but not ok for others. 

 

Back then, Discord was YCM affiliated Zai was speaking in his official capacity as a moderator. Zai is just the most overt example, personally I don't buy Dad's excuse that he posted on Enguin's status without reading it. 

 

Biggest problem with my ban was that I was in regular contact with you and dad. The latter who told me I was "off his sheet list" And in the your case, I noted that I wanted a clean warning pt record because I was afraid of that very aggregate punishment. Regardless of how I felt about the ban at the time, the 6 months proved to be incredibly good for me. So it's w/e

 

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. Atleast not in full. Yes, I don't think he should be banned. While I don't think off color jokes should be banned, I would not lose sleep over a ban if it was agreed to ahead of time. My problem is more that the mods coughed this rule out just to ban enguin. Which is a ex post facto law

 

He literally had this thread edited and got a warning for joke criticizing a mod man. 

 

Not long sadly, that's why I'm trying to stay out of debates. Certain members have already called me Islamophobic for mentioning that bashing an ISIS video isn't wrong. It's only a matter of time till the overturn window shifts. Ideally I'll stop caring and be in TCG full time by then

[mitchermitcher]

Has any mod ever just directly posted in one of his threads/comments saying he's taking his jokes too far for their tastes? 

 

Enguin's anti-semitism schtick is fairly recent after all. He's been off YCM for about a month before that presumably because he was bored of it. As far as I remember he's 'come back' just a few days ago.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Has any mod ever just directly posted in one of his threads/comments saying he's taking his jokes too far for their tastes? 

 

Enguin's anti-semitism schtick is fairly recent after all. He's been off YCM for about a month before that presumably because he was bored of it. As far as I remember he's 'come back' just a few days ago.

I'm not sure I feel comfortable even giving them this. Shard had somewhat of a history of being irritated with jews. Enguin made a status, responded to it, and basically lifted a line from an epic rap battle as his member status. It seems to me to be more of gallows humor than  antisemitism 

[mitchermitcher]

I'm not sure I feel comfortable even giving them this. Shard had somewhat of a history of being irritated with jews. Enguin made a status, responded to it, and basically lifted a line from an epic rap battle as his member status. It seems to me to be more of gallows humor than  antisemitism 

that is more or less what i meant by it being his schtick. i guess it's my bad for not making myself clear. at least to me it's clear he's not doing it in the same vein shard was.

 

on the actual ban itself i dont care too much since he's probably fine with it and again, he might've intended for it in the first place.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

that is more or less what i meant by it being his schtick. i guess it's my bad for not making myself clear. at least to me it's clear he's not doing it in the same vein shard was.

 

on the actual ban itself i dont care too much since he's probably fine with it and again, he might've intended for it in the first place.

He probably is. Especially after this kinda sheet happening. But it's more about checking a naked powergrab by the mods rather than me thinking Enguin will single handedly bring YCM back. 

 

There's no indication this behavior will stop with Enguin. Numerous mods said it would stop with me, and here we are

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It honestly feels like winter/cowcow/hina are trying to get Enguin off on a technicality - that maybe he didn't fully cross some line, or maybe the mods didn't handle his case with full procedure. But the thing is that the mods aren't just the perfectly obedient arm of the very imperfect site rules, they are human and able to recognise when someone is breaking the spirit of the rules, as Enguin did for virtually his entire tenure on the site, even if they are very skilled in technically not breaking the rules.

I think he should be banned and have said that several times. Not following your own set rules is not a "technicality" I don't think. Permaban is an extreme response when there are other, better, responses that could save a lot of people a lot of trouble.

[Flame Dragon]

3) What you consider hate speech might not be universal. Surely this was apparent after numerous conflicts between Roxas and myself

5) Much like 3, that's not an excuse. If you can't deal with it, resign. We're not here to cuddle the mod team

6) And that's a more arbitrary line than my line of threatening harm to actual people. Shard's comments clearly crossed that line. It's not at all apparent Enguin's did

Heres the reality about all these points, as a moderator, we have final say. You can disagree with what we decide is too much, you are literally doing that right now, but when I say Holocaust denial, even said in joke, is something I'm going to punish I am not budging on that point. The question becomes how to handle it.

 

1) This isn't some random user, this is a mod who is supposed to be an example

Please tell me why Enguin gets to stay banned, but Zai and Snatch don't. What about Hina's point about Dad's lexicon? Am I next in line for the chop block if I criticize Islam?

If it wasn't clear, I don't want Zai banned, I'm just curious why it was ok for him to make holocaust jokes, but not ok for others.

I've addressed all these points already. Here, I'll even quote myself.

 

Here is the bottom line on hate speech. It should be zero tolerance. The Holocaust of all things is not something you should joke about. It is not something you should treat lightly. Period. Any time it has been allowed to fly on the forum is a failure on the mod teams part.

And I'm telling you it wasn't acceptable for him to just go with it. Because someone handled a situation wrong doesn't mean we should keep doing it.

I do not like the n-word. However as a white guy I have zero right to tell a black man how to use it and really don't believe I have any right to partake in that conversation.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Enguin should not be the sacrificial lamb for new mod policies or past failures. If you wanna make a 0 tolerance policy. Dope. Make an announcement and ideally a discussion. If enguin or someone else violates it then. Punish them.

 

Problem here is you came out of left field and slapped enguin for something that hasn't been prosecuted thus far. This is an ex post facto law and it's egregious

 

He had no reason to believe it would merit a perma or even a ban cause in the most similar case you issued multiple verbal warnings first.

[Flame Dragon]

Enguin should not be the sacrificial lamb for new mod policies or past failures. If you wanna make a 0 tolerance policy. Dope. Make an announcement and ideally a discussion. If enguin or someone else violates it then. Punish them.

 

Problem here is you came out of left field and slapped enguin for something that hasn't been prosecuted thus far. This is an ex post facto law and it's egregious

 

He had no reason to believe it would merit a perma or even a ban cause in the most similar case you issued multiple verbal warnings first.

And this is the point I'm giving you. I don't think we should need a "denying the Holocaust is a punishable offense". I thought it was understood and a given. But if you want it written out, fine. As said, we are working on this.

 

To go back to Shard I was directly involved with it. I personally issued the warning (I only remember one but I didn't even remember banning Shard so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). I don't know the full issue with Enguin. I'm not going to know the extent we've communicated with and the history of any given member. When my fellow mods tell me he is a recurring issue and we've addressed him before I'm going to believe them. I can't call myself part of the team unless I do. Should I push for more info in situations where I feel I need more, yes. That has been more conscious of of late.

[Kazooie]

And this is the point I'm giving you. I don't think we should need a "denying the Holocaust is a punishable offense". I thought it was understood and a given. But if you want it written out, fine. As said, we are working on this.

 

Ultimately, it is something that needs to be written out.

 

Not only because of people who will toe the line as much as they can, but because of situations where, even if it is done, there needs to be a consistent punishment for it. Permabans are big. Like, really big. If situations between them vary for the same offence, it's not good for anyone involved.

 

It's better to have it publicly open and painfully obvious, that way no one, and I mean no one, can plead ignorance on it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And this is the point I'm giving you. I don't think we should need a "denying the Holocaust is a punishable offense". I thought it was understood and a given. But if you want it written out, fine. As said, we are working on this.

 

To go back to Shard I was directly involved with it. I personally issued the warning (I only remember one but I didn't even remember banning Shard so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). I don't know the full issue with Enguin. I'm not going to know the extent we've communicated with and the history of any given member. When my fellow mods tell me he is a recurring issue and we've addressed him before I'm going to believe them. I can't call myself part of the team unless I do. Should I push for more info in situations where I feel I need more, yes. That has been more conscious of of late.

Should be easy to prove me wrong then. There must be repeated warnings (I remember atleast 2 for shard, Yui did one and you did another) for Enguin that you can show.

 

You're fellow mods have systematically been malicious to Enguin. That's like me that Roxas would have been impartial in dealing with me. Cough up the proof please

[Flame Dragon]

Ultimately, it is something that needs to be written out.

 

Not only because of people who will toe the line as much as they can, but because of situations where, even if it is done, there needs to be a consistent punishment for it. Permabans are big. Like, really big. If situations between them vary for the same offence, it's not good for anyone involved.

 

It's better to have it publicly open and painfully obvious, that way no one, and I mean no one, can plead ignorance on it.

Which is happening.

 

And the permanent nature here was a result of past issue regarding Enguin and him continuing despite being told to stop. As I've said before I can understand why us jumping to a permanent is something people are taking issue with.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Which is happening.

 

And the permanent nature here was a result of past issue regarding Enguin and him continuing despite being told to stop. As I've said before I can understand why us jumping to a permanent is something people are taking issue with.

When was Enguin repeatedly told that his comments about jews was unacceptable, and did you guys go through the proper ban schedule?

 

The way giga and I set it up, and the way you ratified it, there should be a week, a day, a month, and a  year ban first. When did those happen?

[Kazooie]

Which is happening.

 

And the permanent nature here was a result of past issue regarding Enguin and him continuing despite being told to stop. As I've said before I can understand why us jumping to a permanent is something people are taking issue with.

 

That's good.

 

I think a temporary ban for Enguin would've been good enough in this case. What was the ban he just got off of? A week? Make this one a month. I don't disagree with punishing him at all. But a permaban was definitely a huge jump in this case.

 

Introduce the new rule. Make it painfully obvious that it won't be tolerated anymore. Shorten Enguin's ban. If he fucks up AGAIN when he gets back, with the new rule in place, then that's fair grounds for a permaban.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That's good.

 

I think a temporary ban for Enguin would've been good enough in this case. What was the ban he just got off of? A week? Make this one a month. I don't disagree with punishing him at all. But a permaban was definitely a huge jump in this case.

 

Introduce the new rule. Make it painfully obvious that it won't be tolerated anymore. Shorten Enguin's ban. If he fucks up AGAIN when he gets back, with the new rule in place, then that's fair grounds for a permaban.

Not sure they should stack? He got banned last time for calling out Sakura and Yui over a discord dispute. To my knowledge he has not been slapped for this kinda infringement before. Contrasting with shard who was warned 2 times for doing X and did X again despite that.  

[Flame Dragon]

When was Enguin repeatedly told that his comments about jews was unacceptable, and did you guys go through the proper ban schedule?

 

The way giga and I set it up, and the way you ratified it, there should be a week, a day, a month, and a  year ban first. When did those happen?

The things a person is being warned for don't need to be related for ban escalation to happen.

 

I can agree jumping steps in the schedule is something to avoid, but I don't believe it is something that shouldn't happen. Situations happen case by case, and if someone did something seriously out of line, but not so much for permanently ban them we shouldn't start at 3 days or a week. That being said, we can certainly jump to far.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The things a person is being warned for don't need to be related for ban escalation to happen.

 

I can agree jumping steps in the schedule is something to avoid, but I don't believe it is something that shouldn't happen. Situations happen case by case, and if someone did something seriously out of line, but not so much for permanently ban them we shouldn't start at 3 days or a week. That being said, we can certainly jump to far.

Wait...so you'll choose to ignore the rules if you feel like it? Are you kidding me? There are clear exceptions that are written out. Porn and Gore

 

How the funk are we supposed to know you've been secretly adding to that list, when (1) you never discussed it with us (2) or updated the rules

 

Jesus, do you realize what a mockery of PR this is? To quote another member:

 

"it's almost impressive how the mod team manages to sheet the bed like this everytime they have to interact with the userbase"

 

---

 

Why was the Holocaust denial thread allowed by a mod btw? Said mod even posted there a couple times. Was this another "failure" of the mod team? I'm seeing a trend here

[Flame Dragon]

Wait...so you'll choose to ignore the rules if you feel like it? Are you kidding me? There are clear exceptions that are written out. Porn and Gore

 

How the funk are we supposed to know you've been secretly adding to that list, when (1) you never discussed it with us (2) or updated the rules

 

Jesus, do you realize what a mockery of PR this is? To quote another member:

 

"it's almost impressive how the mod team manages to sheet the bed like this everytime they have to interact with the userbase"

I don't remember the ratification process for schedule. I don't remember what my exact feeling were when it was passed. I can only speak to how I feel about right now. And looking at it I don't think it should be a YOU MUST DO THIS EXACTLY LIKE THIS type of thing. It should be a guide. It is called "rough" for a reason. It should be followed most times, but not every time since you have cases between porn and gore and general minor rule breaking.

 

Note: This is my personal feelings and mine alone.

 

Example:

A member post something saying the Holocaust didn't happen.

I say stop or I will ban you.

They do it again.

I ban them. I don't believe I should be held to 3 days when they broke something in the rules (again being added) and I directly warned them to stop.

They come back and do it again.

Should I ban them 1 week, 2 weeks? They just got off a ban for doing something they were already banned for.

 

Is this a realistic scenario, no. But Shard's case is similar and that jumped to a permeant ban and that didn't involve porn of gore and you certainly don't think I was out of line for it. If we had had the schedule would you have wanted me to ban him for only 3 days? Rule enforcement needs more nuance than that.

 

I don't know what you're talking about with lists.