Mod count [Serious]

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I don't care enough about this site to have that much dedication. There are 20 members, stop acting like this is some society. We're more like a school club that doesn't actually even have regular meetings, we just show up to do sheet.

That's fine, turnout is a direct reflection on a person's approval. If you're a sheet stain, people who once liked you won't be motivated to show up again

[Simping For Hina]

We don't need to hold the mods accountable because there is nothing they are doing that requires us to know. They are pretty much just keeping track of reports nowadays.

That's fine, turnout is a direct reflection on a person's approval. If you're a sheet stain, people who once liked you won't be motivated to show up again

Yeah, no. Turnout is a direct reflection on how useful this site is. Our cardmaker sucks. Most people who come here are already regulars, and new members don't have any connection to this place. They'll join and leave.

[Flame Dragon]

Why was this thread left in Misc? Like I get why it started here, but it really should have been moved it Comments since it became a serious discuss on an issue we've been talking about for almost a week now.

 

YCM, you treat your staff like sheet.

 

You really do, whether its because you dislike some of us or we take actions you don’t agree with, or even maybe because you’re bored and antagonizing us when we make decisions is entertaining. In my ten months on the team, in almost every case, any important announcement of ours is met with vitriol. We’re chastized at every opportunity, to the point that it seems less about improving the site and more about different members trying to control what we do or say. Sometimes its backhanded, other times its downright malicious, and I think its safe for me to say that I speak for all of the staff when I say that how you (yes, you, the members, not the staff) conduct yourselves with us creates an unhealthy, stressful, or even hostile work environment. And before you dismiss this as whining, remember that all of us are unpaid volunteers, who are only here out of a genuine desire to help YCM function. I want to make something perfectly clear about YCM’s staff as I have seen them firsthand: We’re not power-hungry, we’re not abusive (especially lately), we’re not malicious or spiteful, or even misguided, and it appears from my end that a lot of you think otherwise, and act accordingly. Straight up: stop it. You interfere with our ability to remain objective and efficiently do our jobs, all for the sake of “holding us accountable”. Accountable to what? We’re not here to lord power over YCM. We’re to keep it clean and friendly, and 100% of the time that’s what we set out to do.

 

If you ask me, this is symptomatic of problems that YCM’s community has always had, even waaaay back 9 years ago when I first became a member. All too often we resort to hostility and fingerpointing when we’re dissasitsfied, when in reality what’s actually going to help the community is trust and communication. Speaking of reality, here’s another fact that people seem to conveniently forget when dealing with the staff, and its so true that i’ll even go as far as saying its axiomatic. A member will never be completely satisfied with the site staff unless they themselves are part of it. We can’t make you happy, and its not really even our job to bow to your wishes. Staff are supposed to work toward the good of the site, not check and make sure what they do is ok with a vocal minority of members, who all on at least a very small level are doing what they do in order to exact some measure of control over the site.

YCM is way harder on its staff than most places, but they aren't doing it just because. People always act with a reason. No matter how poorly they may delver it, if someone is criticizing you, try to look for what actual point they may have. Sometimes they will just be blowing smoke, but that isn't the case here. Honestly I feel like every time they've called us out on something we've said they had a point. They might not be tactful in how they do it, but they've always had a point.

 

On a more topic relevant note, I concur with Roxas about Zai. I wanted him to succeed even when members thought he wouldn’t... and he just didn’t. Friends in RP are none too fond, and his attempts at PR usually ended in telling people to shut up/they were being shitty/etc. I feel he has been an active detriment to the team, further forcing a divide that was meant to be bridged by his role.

I’ll give you the tl;dr first. Its only two sentences after all.

 

1. funk you, I do help the site.

Well i’m not resigning, for one thing. This is a platform I can use to help people whom I consider friends, colleagues, and associates, and I have no intention of doing otherwise. I’m also going to take the opportunity to say (for the umpteenth funking time by the way) that my PM inbox, my skype, and my discord are always open. If you haven’t noticed by now, I love to talk, so nut up and come talk to me directly about whatever issues you have with me or the site or anything else. I can be rough and sarcastic, but ask anyone who considers me a friend around here, i’m a nice guy and I don’t mean any harm. I’m totally willing to level with people if they’re willing to come to me and do the same.

You say "if you have issue with me, come talk to me" which is super valid, but they aren't going to go to you if they don't think you listen. And honestly, I can't say you do when, as highlighted, someone said your response to criticism is to tell people to shut up and then you turn around and do just that. People aren't going to talk to you, they aren't going to think you can change, if at every opportunity you dismiss any criticism people have.

[evilfusion]

Who said anything about forcing term limits, it's more about accountability than focus on new faces on the team

 

Pretty sure Evil would win re-election everytime he ran (cuz you know, he actually does sheet). Right now, there's no way to hold the mods accountable. They just morph around and shift blame and responsibilities 

 

Yeah, I probably would. But I'd probably be the ONLY one who would. Ever. In the entire history of the site.

 

And I'll tell you why that is...because I don't feel a need to appeal to people or groups, but I take care and caution in my interactions so that I don't come off as an jabroni, even to the people I'm punishing or criticizing. That's just how my personality is. Much as I secretly adore admiration and praise (which you have lavished upon my name several times in this thread, thank you), I don't need the approval of others. Which, ironically, earns me the approval of others. I can't really be bought, and I'm unbiased even when dealing with people I'm friendly with, and even those I'm more hostile towards (You, for example, I always tried to treat fairly. And I do appreciate the lack of a grudge following your ban. I handled it myself BECAUSE I wanted the accountability attributed to me).

 

But who else would possibly be able to consistently be "re-elected"? Any mod who's had a slip in visibility would lose a chunk of support, even if no major issues happened within their territory. Or anyone who has a rough patch with the greater community. Sakura was widely DESPISED when he started. He'd have been gone so fast...and now he's proven to be exceptionally reliable, so much that he was a shoo-in for Super when I retired.

[Blake]

But who else would possibly be able to consistently be "re-elected"? Any mod who's had a slip in visibility would lose a chunk of support, even if no major issues happened within their territory. Or anyone who has a rough patch with the greater community. Sakura was widely DESPISED when he started. He'd have been gone so fast...and now he's proven to be exceptionally reliable, so much that he was a shoo-in for Super when I retired.

[evilfusion]

 

Weren't you more of a "in retrospect" example? I thought your attempts to improve CC's quality (Advanced Clause and whatnot) was widely loathed by a number of members, as was your strictness in enforcing it. In retrospect, it was declared one of the best improvements the section ever saw.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I can name a few

 

Yui

Birdie

Dad

Nai

Black (under the rules I set up would handily win TCG modship)

 

Those are in recent years, I could go back further if you'd like

 

---

 

Sakura was disliked for certain communication issues, but I reject your claim he would have been tossed out. Remember there was a riot about Sakura? The side that wanted him removed never got close to majority support even with multiple mods secretly on their side

[Tourmaline]

The competent-objective-impartial triad is the key to optimal moderation, Sakura and Evilfusion the paradigm, and they're both considered excellent lmao

 

as I said a while ago :shrug:

[Blake]

Weren't you more of a "in retrospect" example? I thought your attempts to improve CC's quality (Advanced Clause and whatnot) was widely loathed by a number of members, as was your strictness in enforcing it. In retrospect, it was declared one of the best improvements the section ever saw.

that's why i chose an in/out gif, 'twas a shitpost. "Oh this is for m- WAIT OOPS AUDI 5000"

 

Though the changes were mostly Kook's, I did most of the enforcing. I will definitely say she had far more hand in the fix-up than I did.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The competent-objective-impartial triad is the key to optimal moderation, Sakura and Evilfusion the paradigm, and they're both considered excellent lmao

 

as I said a while ago :shrug:

Black too, dude hated enguin and me, and still stood up to Roxas and Aix when they wanted to go all Stalin on us

[Blake]

I am not some paragon of justice. I am a guy who tries to do the right thing.

 

I am an imperfect human being who fucks that up a lot, because he gets too invested in his work.

 

I'm not totally impartial, having let my partiality get the best of me at times, only to later regret it.

 

I appreciate that you value(d) me, but I can't do this all on my own. I know. I'm no superman.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

stop making modship out to be actual politics and maybe mods won't feel they have to be so political

 

I definitely am often on the side of "they're funking up" but there's a point where it gets too far and too paranoid and too, as said, political. And then it stops being about progress and starts being about individual beliefs.

[evilfusion]

I can name a few

 

Yui

Birdie

Dad

Nai

Black (under the rules I set up would handily win TCG modship)

 

Several of those are extremely recent mods. Bear in mind you used me as an example who would probably consistently be re-elected, and I agree, as I don't think most members ever had a significant issue with me in the six years I was a mod, at least never to the point where they would have wanted me removed or replaced. But even other good mods, if put up for "re-election" would probably fall short within even a smaller time sample. Either when they are first starting and haven't gotten their bearings and possibly rubbed their community the wrong way (Sakura so much), or once they've settled in and gotten more comfortable with using their authority (Pika to an extent).

 

...and no, Sakura ABSOLUTELY would have been tossed out. People constantly were shouting for his removal when he started out, and were constantly citing his slip-ups.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I am not some paragon of justice. I am a guy who tries to do the right thing.

 

I am an imperfect human being who fucks that up a lot, because he gets too invested in his work.

 

I'm not totally impartial, having let my partiality get the best of me at times, only to later regret it.

 

I appreciate that you value(d) me, but I can't do this all on my own. I know. I'm no superman.

Well yeah, you gave me 2 warning point for questing Exodia's gender in a status cause he had no genitals after the NSWF rule came into effect...you can go overboard, but you're willing to listen and change you view (as you did in that case)

 

I'm saying you tend be follow rules, even when you dislike the person you have to bestow judgment on. That's a trait that's both lacking on YCM and RL in recent times (barring Evil, who - my second perma I think was exceedingly fair)

[Tourmaline]

Black too, dude hated enguin and me, and still stood up to Roxas and Aix when they wanted to go all Stalin on us

Intelligent-objectivity-impartiality

 

I am not some paragon of justice. I am a guy who tries to do the right thing.

 

I am an imperfect human being who fucks that up a lot, because he gets too invested in his work.

 

I'm not totally impartial, having let my partiality get the best of me at times, only to later regret it.

 

I appreciate that you value(d) me, but I can't do this all on my own. I know. I'm no superman.

Acknowledging where one falters is a hint of objectivity; harness the glimmer of objectivity cleverly and you'll be as luminiferous as the sun that reveals the world.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Several of those are extremely recent mods. Bear in mind you used me as an example who would probably consistently be re-elected, and I agree, as I don't think most members ever had a significant issue with me in the six years I was a mod, at least never to the point where they would have wanted me removed or replaced. But even other good mods, if put up for "re-election" would probably fall short within even a smaller time sample. Either when they are first starting and haven't gotten their bearings and possibly rubbed their community the wrong way (Sakura so much), or once they've settled in and gotten more comfortable with using their authority (Pika to an extent).

 

...and no, Sakura ABSOLUTELY would have been tossed out. People constantly were shouting for his removal when he started out, and were constantly citing his slip-ups.

Evil I was there when Sakura's unpopularity apexed. Giga, Neph, and one other person were the main vocal opponents. Sakura had plenty of defenders, and he didn't come out, tell people that it was their fault and to funk off

 

You know how I'm sure the names I listed won't be recalled? They were effectively selected through the process I listed. Dad had specific reforms for debates. Birdie and Yui did for PR. Nai was a bit further back, but 2013(?) Aix had us trying convince him to accept.

 

Look you and Nai perma banned me, and I would vote both of you back. I don't think people are as mercurial as you imply, and certain mods deserve to be thrown out

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Evil I was there when Sakura's unpopularity apexed. Giga, Neph, and one other person were the main vocal opponents. Sakura had plenty of defenders, and he didn't come out, tell people that it was their fault and to funk off

 

You know how I'm sure the names I listed won't be recalled? They were effectively selected through the process I listed. Dad had specific reforms for debates. Birdie and Yui did for PR. Nai was a bit further back, but 2013(?) Aix had us trying convince him to accept.

 

Look you and Nai perma banned me, and I would vote both of you back. I don't think people are as mercurial as you imply, and certain mods deserve to be thrown out

Dude no trust me there were a lot more. An entire chat full, like over a dozen people, at the very least.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Dude no trust me there were a lot more. An entire chat full, like over a dozen people, at the very least.

Well the thread is hidden now. You could be right. Those two were very vocal and ones I remeber best. I even made that meme using the famous French Revolution painting.

[evilfusion]

Evil I was there when Sakura's unpopularity apexed. Giga, Neph, and one other person were the main vocal opponents. Sakura had plenty of defenders, and he didn't come out, tell people that it was their fault and to funk off

 

You know how I'm sure the names I listed won't be recalled? They were effectively selected through the process I listed. Dad had specific reforms for debates. Birdie and Yui did for PR. Nai was a bit further back, but 2013(?) Aix had us trying convince him to accept.

 

Look you and Nai perma banned me, and I would vote both of you back. I don't think people are as mercurial as you imply, and certain mods deserve to be thrown out

 

Maybe not.

 

I just think the system, as a concept, is inherently flawed. Moderator positions is not on the same type of field as a politician. Politicians are elected to represent the common people, but they enjoy a number of benefits apart from the influence they have when it comes to political matters. They get paid, and can easily look out for their own interests rather than the interests of the people they represent. That's why term limits and re-elections are a thing in RL: Politicians need to make an effort to actually REPRESENT the people who voted them in, and not just enjoy the luxuries the position affords them.

 

Argument could be made that mods should operate similar. But let's not. There's no pay. Being on the site becomes more of a job or a chore than a pastime. It's not really glamorous, either. The mod forum isn't that interesting.

 

First and foremost, a mod is just an enforcer of the site rules. The power they wield is minimal, yet convenient. And the bigger power they wield IS something they have to be accountable for, such as handling bans and warnings and so forth. It's very different from the role of a politician, and even if mods can, or even should, be partially elected by the member base, putting them up for judgment on a regular basis would be a huge hassle (in general), and would probably risk the position being slightly more corrupt.

 

The political system isn't exactly working out the greatest in real life. It...functions. Sometimes for the better. But it's not ideal, and probably never will be. Let's not arbitrarily politicize moderator appointments. I acknowledge that many mod appointments were poorly done, and that a number of "elected" mods turned out great. There is enough precedent that I would even support using a "vote" more for determining moderator appointments. But turning it MORE political than that is just...not going to work out as wonderfully as you might envision.

[Phantom Roxas]

Imma lay it out plainly, for those people who haven’t realized this yet or just plain don’t go into RP. RP does not need a moderator. All it needs is at least one person on the mod team who is a part of the section so that when mod powers are needed, someone who knows what they’re doing is in charge. The reason I say this is, plainly, that RP knows what they’re doing. The whole section is full of intelligent, kind, welcoming people who foster a spirit of collaboration and genuinely work with one another to help everyone improve. It self-moderates, its GROWING (Trust me, I checked) and I’m even going to go as far as to say that you can take just about any one of the regular hosts in RP and make them a YCM moderator. They’ve all got the skill set and the work ethic for the job (though my personal choices are all either on the team or retired from the team, funny how that kinda makes what I just said hold up, ain’t it).

 

Apologies if it seems I'm neglecting the remainder of your post. I think you make very good points, though there are some I probably shouldn't elaborate upon, mostly in that I fear I would be directing hostility at someone else.

 

I did not consider the above point you're making, but it is one I wholeheartedly sympathize with. While I supposedly "neglected" Anime & Manga, I personally felt that the people there could handle themselves. To be honest, the only real issue that kept coming up in that section was that I encouraged people to support legal streaming websites such as Crunchyroll, and some people here are still vitriolic about the very idea of it. I recall Sakura telling people to go watch VRAINS over on Dailymotion; basically encouraging a direct violation of the rules. Smooth.

 

I'd actually be fine with even Roxas becoming a mod again, but I've not your level of "the fault is not with me, but thou" in anyone one else

 

I want to preface that I mean this entirely as a joke.

 

If I become a mod again, can I be the PR mod? I mean, my initials are practically begging that it be so.

 

I am not some paragon of justice. I am a guy who tries to do the right thing.

 

I am an imperfect human being who fucks that up a lot, because he gets too invested in his work.

 

I'm not totally impartial, having let my partiality get the best of me at times, only to later regret it.

 

I appreciate that you value(d) me, but I can't do this all on my own. I know. I'm no superman.

Funny, I could say the say the same of myself. I "wanted to go all Stalin" on Winter because I tried to do the right thing and stand against someone who was actively abusing people. I got too invested in that, and I was not at all impartial, and I let my partiality get the best of me.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

*shrugs*

[evilfusion]

I thought I would be best at being PR mod...

 

I'm all about using tact and honesty. And my name is all about "bringing things together". Sometimes in a diabolical manner.

 

And I don't borderline worship a manipulative, millennia-old dragon who constantly twists events and societies into something that benefits himself.

 

...wait, no one asked about that.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I thought I would be best at being PR mod...

 

I'm all about using tact and honesty. And my name is all about "bringing things together". Sometimes in a diabolical manner.

 

And I don't borderline worship a manipulative, millennia-old dragon who constantly twists events and societies into something that benefits himself.

 

...wait, no one asked about that.

Didn't think you'd want modship again

 

Roxas seems to have had a genuine change of heart. No doubt we still disagree on politics and other issues, but if he wants to be a kinder person, who am I to deny him a chance? 

 

I'd want to hear specific policy proposals and all, but he could pull it off imo

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Sakura was disliked for certain communication issues, but I reject your claim he would have been tossed out. Remember there was a riot about Sakura? The side that wanted him removed never got close to majority support even with multiple mods secretly on their side

For the second time this week I get to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

It had nothing to do with communication. He put out very low-quality posts in his section, and there was a personal issue I'm not going into here.

 

Nai privately supported, but he was really the only one.

 

Not to mention that the goal wasn't even to get Sakura demoted. It was to get him to improve as a mod. Which he did. Spectacularly. Was the method a bit overboard? Well, duh. But considering the results, and absolute lack of hostility between him and I to this day, I'm pretty alright with how things turned out. I wouldn't do it again, but if I had a time machine I wouldn't stop myself.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Maybe not.

 

I just think the system, as a concept, is inherently flawed. Moderator positions is not on the same type of field as a politician. Politicians are elected to represent the common people, but they enjoy a number of benefits apart from the influence they have when it comes to political matters. They get paid, and can easily look out for their own interests rather than the interests of the people they represent. That's why term limits and re-elections are a thing in RL: Politicians need to make an effort to actually REPRESENT the people who voted them in, and not just enjoy the luxuries the position affords them.

 

Argument could be made that mods should operate similar. But let's not. There's no pay. Being on the site becomes more of a job or a chore than a pastime. It's not really glamorous, either. The mod forum isn't that interesting.

 

First and foremost, a mod is just an enforcer of the site rules. The power they wield is minimal, yet convenient. And the bigger power they wield IS something they have to be accountable for, such as handling bans and warnings and so forth. It's very different from the role of a politician, and even if mods can, or even should, be partially elected by the member base, putting them up for judgment on a regular basis would be a huge hassle (in general), and would probably risk the position being slightly more corrupt.

 

The political system isn't exactly working out the greatest in real life. It...functions. Sometimes for the better. But it's not ideal, and probably never will be. Let's not arbitrarily politicize moderator appointments. I acknowledge that many mod appointments were poorly done, and that a number of "elected" mods turned out great. There is enough precedent that I would even support using a "vote" more for determining moderator appointments. But turning it MORE political than that is just...not going to work out as wonderfully as you might envision.

 

Point by point:

 

President Trump isn't taking a wage, other presidents have done similar things. Some congressmen have been willing to slash their "perks"...there's a joy in serving your country and seeing is prosper. There should be a similar passion in seeing this place, which has become kinda like a family, thrive. And I don't doubt there is.

 

I think it's a similar problem here. Mods stop giving a sheet, or want to move a section in a way they like. Doesn't have to be a $ benefit. Hold someone with stale ideas accountable isn't silly. 

 

Can't prove this, but I'd question if the reason it gets boring is because YCM has been stagnant for so long. I wonder if Nai or Koko felt board during the height of Duelist Advent Meta in TCG. 

 

This is where you're wrong. I don't think mods should be the police primarily, I think they should be the lawmakers. They should take inputs from their constituents (people who frequent the section the mod over) and try to apply them to the section when possible. Ideally if the rules are made by the users, there would be less infractions 

 

I meant in terms of accountability. The GOP dropped the ball on Healthcare Reform, Virginia Gov election rolls around, 80% of HRC voters show up, 60% of Trump voters show up, Dems clobber the GOP by 9 pts. Top issue, (32%) healthcare, Dems has 50% advantage among voters who say HC is their top issue. The GOP, rightfully, paid a big price for funking healthcare reform up. What price did Zai or Night pay for dicking around? And I say this as a conservative Virginian who just his ass beat 4 ways to Friday. 

 

You are correct that we mostly have anecdotes, but I'm still not seeing the main points against it.

 

---

 

Corruption charges? Like TCG conspiring to select a mod who would funk General over?

For the second time this week I get to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

It had nothing to do with communication. He put out very low-quality posts in his section, and there was a personal issue I'm not going into here.

 

Nai privately supported, but he was really the only one.

 

Not to mention that the goal wasn't even to get Sakura demoted. It was to get him to improve as a mod. Which he did. Spectacularly. Was the method a bit overboard? Well, duh. But considering the results, and absolute lack of hostility between him and I to this day, I'm pretty alright with how things turned out. I wouldn't do it again, but if I had a time machine I wouldn't stop myself.

We had different problems with Sakura then. I found it pretty  hard to hold a convo with him back in 2013, which was my main annoyance with him. You're still not giving credence to Evil's pt that Sakura would have been thrown out though. So I'm not entirely wrong