On the topic of taking the knee (in the NFL or elsewhere)

[ShimoHkun1]

This seems to becoming more of an issue of racism and let me put in my two cents.

 

There are many black people who are under duress and they should fight for any and all equal treatment. This does not mean that those people who are white should be afraid or ashamed to do so. Also fighting for equality in race shouldn't be confused with gaining ground and pushing those you fought against under you. It is the same issue I have with feminism. The fact that some people think that women are less than men is just silly. But feminists push an agenda of female superiority, and if applied to race the same principles apply. Equality is mandatory for an American and if you have been faced with this, I apologize and will stand by you in a fight for justice. But, you can't say that all white people think that way, and because of that they should be treated as evil or bad. I for the first 12 years of my life was always confused when I was not given a place to note my European heritage on standardized tests and such (which I won't identify for privacys sake) and this to me seemed like people who weren't white were somehow better than me. As I got older I realized this wasn't as much the case, but it has allowed me to look at someone's views on being upset or angry about an act of oppression because I was under a false assumption that I was being oppressed.

 

America quite literally stands for equality, it does not kneel.

[Dad]

This seems to becoming more of an issue of racism and let me put in my two cents.

 

There are many black people who are under duress and they should fight for any and all equal treatment. This does not mean that those people who are white should be afraid or ashamed to do so. Also fighting for equality in race shouldn't be confused with gaining ground and pushing those you fought against under you. It is the same issue I have with feminism. The fact that some people think that women are less than men is just silly. But feminists push an agenda of female superiority, and if applied to race the same principles apply. Equality is mandatory for an American and if you have been faced with this, I apologize and will stand by you in a fight for justice. But, you can't say that all white people think that way, and because of that they should be treated as evil or bad. I for the first 12 years of my life was always confused when I was not given a place to note my European heritage on standardized tests and such (which I won't identify for privacys sake) and this to me seemed like people who weren't white were somehow better than me. As I got older I realized this wasn't as much the case, but it has allowed me to look at someone's views on being upset or angry about an act of oppression because I was under a false assumption that I was being oppressed.

 

America quite literally stands for equality, it does not kneel.

 

Black Lives Matter does not equate to "Only Black Lives Matter".  Media started that false equivalency bullshit.  BLM was there when the Australian American got shot.  

 

We don't want superiority.  We want equality.

[Aerion Brightflame]

We make up a small majority of the population but are killed at the same rates as whites. That means we're killed more often.  See how that works?

 

Do you mean deaths by police, or deaths in general?

 

Because if the latter, yes you are killed at a disproportionate rate. Usually by other blacks, it makes up a significantly larger proportion of total deaths than deaths by police.

 

And if you mean by Police, blacks on the whole commit disproportionate amounts of crime. So there being more fatalities as a percentage of your population shouldn't be shocking, because more occasions of crime means more occasions for it to get violent, so higher crime rates have higher rates of death due to crime. See how that works?

 

 

I used to play cops and robbers as a kid.  We'd pretend to shoot at passing cars, shoot people on the sidewalks.  We were kids having fun.  And no matter who we pointed a toy gun at, the only shots that rang out were from plastic toys.

 

And as a kid, I often had to pull up my pants.  And if the gun was in Tamir's hands, what could he be reaching for? 

You did that at 12? And at 12, did you play cops and robbers by yourself? In a public park? Because Tamir didn't have anyone playing with him, and he still pointed it at people as one would do when taking aim with a gun normal. So if nothing else we've established he shouldn't act like a f***ing idiot with a replica. 

 

The gun wasn't in Tamir's hands at that point, it was in his waistband. The same one he was reaching for when the cops pulled up. Time passed between the calls of 'black kid with a gun pointing it at people' and the police actually turning up. You can take that as evidence of 'oh the police f***ed up then' if you want, but it's not an inconsitency.

 

 

See, when the Police Department investigates itself and then its peers are put on a jury, you can always expect the outcome to favor the officer in question.  In none of the cases where they were charged were they ever found guilty.  Placing him on leave just means he's still getting paid to do nothing.  That is the problem.  This is what we're protesting.  And it's not just in cases against unarmed black men.  It's against citizens of this country.

You know these cops were tried in a public court of law right?

 

Not an internal investigation, the cops in the Freddie Grey case were actually arrested, jailed, and tried for assault and manslaughter in various forms. Jury of 'your peers' means Jury of the the people here. I don't see what more you could possible ask from due process than the officers actually getting given criminal charges and being tried in a public court.

 

And you'd rather these people be fired outright? Before anything has proven them guilty? That they should lose there livelyhood despite the possiblity existing for them to be completely innocent and justified in their actions?

 

And if it's 'about the citizens of the nation' why are you making the citizens of the nation pay for it, by suing cities in addition to individuals? Because, as in the Tamir Rice case, when you sue the city, the tax payer has to pick up the bill, you are making everyone pay for it. I don't see why that helps the citizens of the nation.

 

Except our SAT scores as people of color have consistently climbed.  We're making more breakthroughs than ever before.  And we're not the only ones benefiting from affirmative action (that's complex and I'll try not to go too deep into it).  And yet we're turned away from well-paying jobs where our white counterparts with the same amount of experience and education are accepted.  This is the system working against us.  I can vouch for it personally!

 

In my time in Wisconsin I wore a suit and tie to every interview.  I got my haircut, I made sure I was presentable and my decorum was proper.  Despite having equal or more experience than some of the people I was interviewed with (I had two open interviews it was weird), I was turned away.  There was a guy who literally showed up in jeans and a button up polo.  He had no experience and I had a year's worth.  He got the job.  He had no education outside of high school.  I did.  He got the job.  This is the problem.  And it happens in schools too.

Wrong:

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

In the past 17 years, the gap between whites and blacks has increased, and scores themselves are fairly fixed. And yet somehow, black enrollment has been consitently on the up. So if you aren't achieving better, and yet you are getting into more, it must logically mean standards for you have dropped. Which would imply the system is in fact, in at least one small way, working for you.

 

Okay, maybe that guy was racist. Maybe he thought the guy in jeans was hot. Maybe he thought the guy in jeans had more potential than you. Maybe the guy in jeans blackmailed him. Maybe the guy in jeans hated people with your name. You aren't in his mind, you don't know his motivations. You cannot assume motive to prove your worldview.

 

Because it's near 2AM when I am writing this, and I can't be bothered to parse through all the data: If blacks are discriminated against in a negative way, can you show me stastical evidence, not anecdotal of this? Because I have shown you data on crime, I have show you data on SAT scores, I'd like you to support your argument here.

 

 

Just stop watching Fox News.  Y'all have excellent news programming in the UK.  I'm so glad Fox lost their contract.

 

I don't watch Fox. Stop making assumptions of me. It's making you look worse in this than me.

 

 

There are more white people on welfare than black people.  Your information is wrong.

 

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

 

~40% of welfare recipients are Black, only 16.8% are white. I think this is wrong, because it seems way to high to me, but I'll run with it for now. This would suggest, I'm not wrong.

 

The modern numbers about welfare don't actually matter: Since the introduce of modern welfare in like 60's and 70's, which has helped blacks on the whole more, I believe black unemployment has increased, black poverty has increased, black divorcee rates have increased. All in all, the introduction of welfare into the black community seems to have made it worse. It's gone from only around 9% of children being born out of wedlock in the black community in the 50's, to only a quarter of one year olds having a married family by 1999 say.

 

I'll try and find a online reference for that later, I only have a physical copy of it currently.

 

 

I can tell you right now it doesn't pay to be a black man.  Not in recent history.  Even as the President of the United States you were subject to having images of you placed on dolls and hanged in fake trees.  And over the course of mid last year to now, we are fighting the same injustices of institutional racism and blatant racism as we did in the f***ing sixties.  We are literally doing it all over again.  The only difference is we finally are able to have a voice.  Now, we're just being told we can't use it.

 

I don't care if they're annoyed.  If they wanna stop being annoyed then they need to change the system.  It really is that simple.  Far as Trump and Russia goes, I'm staying out of that because it's still up in the air and kinda out there.  The rest of it isn't that difficult to overcome. 

 

You really do put a lot of focus on the KKK stuff.

 

Okay - Prove instituional racism to me. Show me where, under word of law, you are treated as inferior to any other race in the US. In the 60's you didn't have that. Because the counter argument has the Civil Rights Act on it's side. So the burden of proof rests with you.

 

So right here, prove that blacks, preferably through an objective set of measures, are instituionally discriminated against. And I would like sources for that please.

 

Because if you are actually wrong about this, then if you are annoying the rest of the nation, it's not on us to cater for you.

 

 

So besides protesting, donating to charity, working in the community, teaching children, helping them to find jobs, assisting with schooling donations and education funds, what else what you have him do?  What is more productive than that?

 

Basically just more of that. Oh and actually working instead of you know missing a season because of the political protest.

 

More productive to me, would also be instilling the idea in these kids that it is not the system. If they want to make something of themselves, they have to grind it out, and maybe they have it harder, but it doesn't change what they have to do to succeed. If they want to do well, they are responsible for it, nobody else.

[Dad]

Do you mean deaths by police, or deaths in general?

 

Because if the latter, yes you are killed at a disproportionate rate. Usually by other blacks, it makes up a significantly larger proportion of total deaths than deaths by police.

 

And if you mean by Police, blacks on the whole commit disproportionate amounts of crime. So there being more fatalities as a percentage of your population shouldn't be shocking, because more occasions of crime means more occasions for it to get violent, so higher crime rates have higher rates of death due to crime. See how that works?

 

 

You did that at 12? And at 12, did you play cops and robbers by yourself? In a public park? Because Tamir didn't have anyone playing with him, and he still pointed it at people as one would do when taking aim with a gun normal. So if nothing else we've established he shouldn't act like a f***ing idiot with a replica. 

 

The gun wasn't in Tamir's hands at that point, it was in his waistband. The same one he was reaching for when the cops pulled up. Time passed between the calls of 'black kid with a gun pointing it at people' and the police actually turning up. You can take that as evidence of 'oh the police f***ed up then' if you want, but it's not an inconsitency.

 

 

You know these cops were tried in a public court of law right?

 

Not an internal investigation, the cops in the Freddie Grey case were actually arrested, jailed, and tried for assault and manslaughter in various forms. Jury of 'your peers' means Jury of the the people here. I don't see what more you could possible ask from due process than the officers actually getting given criminal charges and being tried in a public court.

 

And you'd rather these people be fired outright? Before anything has proven them guilty? That they should lose there livelyhood despite the possiblity existing for them to be completely innocent and justified in their actions?

 

And if it's 'about the citizens of the nation' why are you making the citizens of the nation pay for it, by suing cities in addition to individuals? Because, as in the Tamir Rice case, when you sue the city, the tax payer has to pick up the bill, you are making everyone pay for it. I don't see why that helps the citizens of the nation.

 

Wrong:

http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

In the past 17 years, the gap between whites and blacks has increased, and scores themselves are fairly fixed. And yet somehow, black enrollment has been consitently on the up. So if you aren't achieving better, and yet you are getting into more, it must logically mean standards for you have dropped. Which would imply the system is in fact, in at least one small way, working for you.

 

Okay, maybe that guy was racist. Maybe he thought the guy in jeans was hot. Maybe he thought the guy in jeans had more potential than you. Maybe the guy in jeans blackmailed him. Maybe the guy in jeans hated people with your name. You aren't in his mind, you don't know his motivations. You cannot assume motive to prove your worldview.

 

Because it's near 2AM when I am writing this, and I can't be bothered to parse through all the data: If blacks are discriminated against in a negative way, can you show me stastical evidence, not anecdotal of this? Because I have shown you data on crime, I have show you data on SAT scores, I'd like you to support your argument here.

 

 

 

I don't watch Fox. Stop making assumptions of me. It's making you look worse in this than me.

 

 

 

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

 

~40% of welfare recipients are Black, only 16.8% are white. I think this is wrong, because it seems way to high to me, but I'll run with it for now. This would suggest, I'm not wrong.

 

The modern numbers about welfare don't actually matter: Since the introduce of modern welfare in like 60's and 70's, which has helped blacks on the whole more, I believe black unemployment has increased, black poverty has increased, black divorcee rates have increased. All in all, the introduction of welfare into the black community seems to have made it worse. It's gone from only around 9% of children being born out of wedlock in the black community in the 50's, to only a quarter of one year olds having a married family by 1999 say.

 

I'll try and find a online reference for that later, I only have a physical copy of it currently.

 

 

 

You really do put a lot of focus on the KKK stuff.

 

Okay - Prove instituional racism to me. Show me where, under word of law, you are treated as inferior to any other race in the US. In the 60's you didn't have that. Because the counter argument has the Civil Rights Act on it's side. So the burden of proof rests with you.

 

So right here, prove that blacks, preferably through an objective set of measures, are instituionally discriminated against. And I would like sources for that please.

 

Because if you are actually wrong about this, then if you are annoying the rest of the nation, it's not on us to cater for you.

 

 

 

Basically just more of that. Oh and actually working instead of you know missing a season because of the political protest.

 

More productive to me, would also be instilling the idea in these kids that it is not the system. If they want to make something of themselves, they have to grind it out, and maybe they have it harder, but it doesn't change what they have to do to succeed. If they want to do well, they are responsible for it, nobody else.

 

This won't take long.  I'm not gonna break up quotes because it's super time consuming and annoying.  So here you go, in order:

 

https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/

 

Title is misleading and stupid.

 

This is for labor statistics.  Hiring rates.

 

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm

 

SNAP/ Foodstamps/Welfare

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/28/food-stamp-demographics_n_6771938.html

 

Institutionalized Racism

 

http://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/

 

That looks to the rate of lockups, mostly misdemeanors with which whites are more often let go for.  And just for example, Brock Turner who got less than a year of prison time for raping a girl.  Any other person of color (black, latino, asian) would've gotten far more time.  

 

More on incarceration rates.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males

 

Have a good night.

[vla1ne]

And then, when they are attacked for trying to express these feelings, it pushes them even further away. Much more good would be accomplished by explaining why you feel these things are worth praising, rather than insulting those involved.

 

The players kneel instead of stand because they feel their nation isn't doing right by them. Calling them a disgrace only makes them sure of it.

they are being attacked (hopefully not violently), not because they are expressing feelings, but because of what they are using to express those feelings. a symbol of the country itself. the backlash is because people who view the anthem as a symbol of the country, are not taking kindly to the actions of those who would protest, the representation of the very thing that allows them to protest.

 

What exactly isn't being done right? the only way they should be thinking that way, to any degree would be if they hadn't seen the progress of the past 40-50 years. we've come a long way, and arguably very quickly. so long in fact, that damn near everything has moved to the side, to the favor of minorities. 

 

 

I find it unsettling that you're more upset that people are kneeling during a football game as opposed to people of color being shot in the street in cold blood.

when did i say that? never, and there's your answer to that statement. i'm against the cops killing anybody, especially the innocent (highlighting this, because it seems to be the most missed portion of this conversation, and may well be one of the corners of the discussion that leads to the most misunderstandings), but the issue is magnified beyond what it has any business being. yes, blacks die unjustly by cop hands, and so do all other races, it's not a race issue when it comes to cops, it's an issue of cops needing better training, and actual discipline for cops who act unjustly, including killing, crippling, or excessive harm coming to those they detain.

 

there's more to the issue than just race, and race isn't the issue i have with the kneeling, in fact, race as an issue, takes away from the discussion for me. it's the fact that america, as a whole, is actually far more advanced than this movement is giving credit for. and as of late, people like those taking the knee, have been forcing politics into places where it really doesn't need to be, football is not for politics, it's for entertainment.

 

 

We make up a small majority of the population but are killed at the same rates as whites. That means we're killed more often.  See how that works?

 

 

 

I used to play cops and robbers as a kid.  We'd pretend to shoot at passing cars, shoot people on the sidewalks.  We were kids having fun.  And no matter who we pointed a toy gun at, the only shots that rang out were from plastic toys.

 

And as a kid, I often had to pull up my pants.  And if the gun was in Tamir's hands, what could he be reaching for?  

 

 

 

See, when the Police Department investigates itself and then its peers are put on a jury, you can always expect the outcome to favor the officer in question.  In none of the cases where they were charged were they ever found guilty.  Placing him on leave just means he's still getting paid to do nothing.  That is the problem.  This is what we're protesting.  And it's not just in cases against unarmed black men.  It's against citizens of this country.

 

 

 

Except our SAT scores as people of color have consistently climbed.  We're making more breakthroughs than ever before.  And we're not the only ones benefiting from affirmative action (that's complex and I'll try not to go too deep into it).  And yet we're turned away from well-paying jobs where our white counterparts with the same amount of experience and education are accepted.  This is the system working against us.  I can vouch for it personally!

 

In my time in Wisconsin I wore a suit and tie to every interview.  I got my haircut, I made sure I was presentable and my decorum was proper.  Despite having equal or more experience than some of the people I was interviewed with (I had two open interviews it was weird), I was turned away.  There was a guy who literally showed up in jeans and a button up polo.  He had no experience and I had a year's worth.  He got the job.  He had no education outside of high school.  I did.  He got the job.  This is the problem.  And it happens in schools too.

 

 

 

Just stop watching Fox News.  Y'all have excellent news programming in the UK.  I'm so glad Fox lost their contract.

 

 

 

There are more white people on welfare than black people.  Your information is wrong.

 

 

 

I can tell you right now it doesn't pay to be a black man.  Not in recent history.  Even as the President of the United States you were subject to having images of you placed on dolls and hanged in fake trees.  And over the course of mid last year to now, we are fighting the same injustices of institutional racism and blatant racism as we did in the f***ing sixties.  We are literally doing it all over again.  The only difference is we finally are able to have a voice.  Now, we're just being told we can't use it.

 

 

 

I don't care if they're annoyed.  If they wanna stop being annoyed then they need to change the system.  It really is that simple.  Far as Trump and Russia goes, I'm staying out of that because it's still up in the air and kinda out there.  The rest of it isn't that difficult to overcome.  

 

 

 

So besides protesting, donating to charity, working in the community, teaching children, helping them to find jobs, assisting with schooling donations and education funds, what else what you have him do?  What is more productive than that?

did you know we also commit 2x our share of crime? did you also know that we are (or used to be) the only culture in america that encourages a hatred of cops, and a mistrust of the law in general? quite a few reasons that blacks are killed so often, when the hood encourages blacks to kill cops, sell drugs, and abstain from informing the cops of illegal activity (aka snitching). there's a lot more to it than the final numbers.

 

you are right. them killing a kid for playing with guns is foolish, and there were far better ways to do as much. it reminds me of the one case, where the guy in the store got sniped because he had a bb gun. cops funk up, and because of their line of work, those funk-ups will often lead to the death of somebody who didn't deserve it. i agree that they should be held more accountable for their actions, but for the time being, i will use the same defense that many before me used, aka, the not all cops defense. fact is, the cops that draw attention are the standing nails, or the bent nails, you rarely hear about the hundreds of thousands of cops properly doing their jobs, because they are doing exactly what they should, and that isn't interesting enough to make a headline.

as for what he may have been reaching for, guns do need bullets. (fake gun, but the point stands so long as they didn't know that at the time)

 

no point in arguing here. i agree with you. that sheet needs to stop. cops who funk up need to be put on UNpaid leave, and if it proves to be a recurring trend, they need to be fired, and potentially jailed for their actions.

 

and that is why the knee is both moot and unkneeded... blacks are already capable of making it up the ladder, it may not be as fast of a climb, but it is already happening, and blaming the country as a whole/playing the race card, for the screw-ups, is not the way to speed up the progress.

 

for your experience, i've got quite a few reasons that beat out racism, but the simplest one works best: nepotism. the dude in question was likely some boss' son or nephew. nobody in their right funking mind would show up to a professional job in casual attire, unless they already had an in to the job, and no employer would hire said person, unless they had personal ties pushing them. it's not uncommon, and i've seen, heard, and been a part of multiple cases of nepotism in multiple businesses. it wasn't race, the interview itself was just to hide the bullshit that is nepotism.

 

actually, fox is rarely the one calling the country racist, if anything, they're the ones that are called racist. trust me, years of msnbc and cnn, alongside alternative sources, like young turks, daily show, and various others, have given me at least this much insight to the mainstream news world.

 

there's more whites than blacks, but there's a higher percentage of blacks than whites on welfare. numbers and stats are funny like that.

 

the same applies to being black and having an opinion contrary to the herd though. ever been called a coon because you disagreed with the racism narrative? ever been a firsthand witness to jabroni moments, and think to yourself, "this is what's wrong with the black community". blacks have all they need to get up in life, we just need to stop acting like crabs in a bucket, and work as a community. that means removing the thug sheet, restoring family dynamic (don't care how, just make sure the goddamn kids have at least 2 responsible funking parents looking out for them) ect.

 

the system (for the most part, even involving blacks) isn't busted, it's just not a handout, and the family model expressed in the hood does black people no favors. welfare doesn't raise your kids, drug dealers aren't the niggas you want to be your baby daddies, the smart black kids aren't acting white, they're acting educated, and so much more that this would be at least a page on its own.

 

he's doing good sheet, but this was the one kernel of stupid in that gold nugget. and unfortunately, it's already seeded into the NFL.

[vla1ne]

And then, when they are attacked for trying to express these feelings, it pushes them even further away. Much more good would be accomplished by explaining why you feel these things are worth praising, rather than insulting those involved.

 

The players kneel instead of stand because they feel their nation isn't doing right by them. Calling them a disgrace only makes them sure of it.

they are being attacked (hopefully not violently), not because they are expressing feelings, but because of what they are using to express those feelings. a symbol of the country itself. the backlash is because people who view the anthem as a symbol of the country, are not taking kindly to the actions of those who would protest, the representation of the very thing that allows them to protest.

 

What exactly isn't being done right? the only way they should be thinking that way, to any degree would be if they hadn't seen the progress of the past 40-50 years. we've come a long way, and arguably very quickly. so long in fact, that damn near everything has moved to the side, to the favor of minorities. 

 

 

I find it unsettling that you're more upset that people are kneeling during a football game as opposed to people of color being shot in the street in cold blood.

when did i say that? never, and there's your answer to that statement. i'm against the cops killing anybody, especially the innocent (highlighting this, because it seems to be the most missed portion of this conversation, and may well be one of the corners of the discussion that leads to the most misunderstandings), but the issue is magnified beyond what it has any business being. yes, blacks die unjustly by cop hands, and so do all other races, it's not a race issue when it comes to cops, it's an issue of cops needing better training, and actual discipline for cops who act unjustly, including killing, crippling, or excessive harm coming to those they detain.

 

there's more to the issue than just race, and race isn't the issue i have with the kneeling, in fact, race as an issue, takes away from the discussion for me. it's the fact that america, as a whole, is actually far more advanced than this movement is giving credit for. and as of late, people like those taking the knee, have been forcing politics into places where it really doesn't need to be, football is not for politics, it's for entertainment.

 

 

We make up a small majority of the population but are killed at the same rates as whites. That means we're killed more often.  See how that works?

 

I used to play cops and robbers as a kid.  We'd pretend to shoot at passing cars, shoot people on the sidewalks.  We were kids having fun.  And no matter who we pointed a toy gun at, the only shots that rang out were from plastic toys.

And as a kid, I often had to pull up my pants.  And if the gun was in Tamir's hands, what could he be reaching for?  

 

See, when the Police Department investigates itself and then its peers are put on a jury, you can always expect the outcome to favor the officer in question.  In none of the cases where they were charged were they ever found guilty.  Placing him on leave just means he's still getting paid to do nothing.  That is the problem.  This is what we're protesting.  And it's not just in cases against unarmed black men.  It's against citizens of this country.

 

Except our SAT scores as people of color have consistently climbed.  We're making more breakthroughs than ever before.  And we're not the only ones benefiting from affirmative action (that's complex and I'll try not to go too deep into it).  And yet we're turned away from well-paying jobs where our white counterparts with the same amount of experience and education are accepted.  This is the system working against us.  I can vouch for it personally!

 

In my time in Wisconsin I wore a suit and tie to every interview.  I got my haircut, I made sure I was presentable and my decorum was proper.  Despite having equal or more experience than some of the people I was interviewed with (I had two open interviews it was weird), I was turned away.  There was a guy who literally showed up in jeans and a button up polo.  He had no experience and I had a year's worth.  He got the job.  He had no education outside of high school.  I did.  He got the job.  This is the problem.  And it happens in schools too.

 

Just stop watching Fox News.  Y'all have excellent news programming in the UK.  I'm so glad Fox lost their contract.

 

There are more white people on welfare than black people.  Your information is wrong.

 

I can tell you right now it doesn't pay to be a black man.  Not in recent history.  Even as the President of the United States you were subject to having images of you placed on dolls and hanged in fake trees.  And over the course of mid last year to now, we are fighting the same injustices of institutional racism and blatant racism as we did in the f***ing sixties.  We are literally doing it all over again.  The only difference is we finally are able to have a voice.  Now, we're just being told we can't use it.

 

I don't care if they're annoyed.  If they wanna stop being annoyed then they need to change the system.  It really is that simple.  Far as Trump and Russia goes, I'm staying out of that because it's still up in the air and kinda out there.  The rest of it isn't that difficult to overcome.  

 

So besides protesting, donating to charity, working in the community, teaching children, helping them to find jobs, assisting with schooling donations and education funds, what else what you have him do?  What is more productive than that?

did you know we also commit 2x our share of crime? did you also know that we are (or used to be) the only culture in america that encourages a hatred of cops, and a mistrust of the law in general? quite a few reasons that blacks are killed so often, when the hood encourages blacks to kill cops, sell drugs, and abstain from informing the cops of illegal activity (aka snitching). there's a lot more to it than the final numbers.

 

you are right. them killing a kid for playing with guns is foolish, and there were far better ways to do as much. it reminds me of the one case, where the guy in the store got sniped because he had a bb gun. cops f*** up, and because of their line of work, those f***-ups will often lead to the death of somebody who didn't deserve it. i agree that they should be held more accountable for their actions, but for the time being, i will use the same defense that many before me used, aka, the not all cops defense. fact is, the cops that draw attention are the standing nails, or the bent nails, you rarely hear about the hundreds of thousands of cops properly doing their jobs, because they are doing exactly what they should, and that isn't interesting enough to make a headline.

as for what he may have been reaching for, guns do need bullets. (fake gun, but the point stands so long as they didn't know that at the time)

 

no point in arguing here. i agree with you. that s*** needs to stop. cops who f*** up need to be put on UNpaid leave, and if it proves to be a recurring trend, they need to be fired, and potentially jailed for their actions.

 

and that is why the knee is both moot and unkneeded... blacks are already capable of making it up the ladder, it may not be as fast of a climb, but it is already happening, and blaming the country as a whole/playing the race card, for the screw-ups, is not the way to speed up the progress.

 

for your experience, i've got quite a few reasons that beat out racism, but the simplest one works best: nepotism. the dude in question was likely some boss' son or nephew. nobody in their right f***ing mind would show up to a professional job in casual attire, unless they already had an in to the job, and no employer would hire said person, unless they had personal ties pushing them. it's not uncommon, and i've seen, heard, and been a part of multiple cases of nepotism in multiple businesses. it wasn't race, the interview itself was just to hide the bullshit that is nepotism.

 

actually, fox is rarely the one calling the country racist, if anything, they're the ones that are called racist. trust me, years of msnbc and cnn, alongside alternative sources, like young turks, daily show, and various others, have given me at least this much insight to the mainstream news world.

 

there's more whites than blacks, but there's a higher percentage of blacks than whites on welfare. numbers and stats are funny like that.

 

the same applies to being black and having an opinion contrary to the herd though. ever been called a coon because you disagreed with the racism narrative? ever been a firsthand witness to n***a moments, and think to yourself, "this is what's wrong with the black community". blacks have all they need to get up in life, we just need to stop acting like crabs in a bucket, and work as a community. that means removing the thug s***, restoring family dynamic (don't care how, just make sure the goddamn kids have at least 2 responsible f***ing parents looking out for them) ect.

 

the system (for the most part, even involving blacks) isn't busted, it's just not a handout, and the family model expressed in the hood does black people no favors. welfare doesn't raise your kids, drug dealers aren't the niggas you want to be your baby daddies, the smart black kids aren't acting white, they're acting educated, and so much more that this would be at least a page on its own.

 

he's doing good s***, but this was the one kernel of stupid in that gold nugget. and unfortunately, it's already seeded into the NFL.

[Aerion Brightflame]

That's not discrimination by rule of law as far as I can tell.

 

I looked through the links quickly to check that, but you've not painted the case they are being treated this way because they are black.

 

You have, save the random HuffPo article which was about the welfare thing, which I think my source trumps yours, because it's HuffPo, but whatever it's not that important, a bunch of different articles saying 'Oh, X things happens to Blacks more than whites', but that's not proof that it is happening because they are black, and they don't link the various things together.

 

So like it says 'blacks get imprisoned more, and for longer'. but it doesn't consider poverty as a cause. And I don't mean as in 'being poor = more crime' though that is certaintly true, but I mean being poor means you are probably using a shitty underpaid, overworked public defender who has you take a plea deal on a case you can win, or at least take time off of.

 

Or Blacks are in poorer enviroments, so they have worse schools, so they have worse attaintment at SAT's, and so they are less qualified for the workforce. Less blacks get hired because more of the population have criminal records.

 

All those seperate points link and i've even verified if they are true (I'll wager the NAACP is misrepresnting something there)  but they don't link to 'Blacks are systemically oppressed because they are black'. Maybe it proves the oppression, but it proves it in the way that poor people have sheet lives.

 

And that's fine. It's unfortunate, but it's not racism in the same way pre 60's civil rights racism was. It's not racism at all, it's closer to classism.

 

So I have to ask, what equality are you advocating for? Equality of opportunity, where everyone is afford the same legal rights as everyone else, such to the most society can alone one rises and falls on his or her own merits, or equality of outcome, where the aim is to have all groups achieving roughly proportional to what chunk they are of the population

 

Because it sounds like you are arguing for the later. And this has to be explicitly known, because the two different things are advocating for something entirely different.

[Dad]

That's not discrimination by rule of law as far as I can tell.

 

I looked through the links quickly to check that, but you've not painted the case they are being treated this way because they are black.

 

You have, save the random HuffPo article which was about the welfare thing, which I think my source trumps yours, because it's HuffPo, but whatever it's not that important, a bunch of different articles saying 'Oh, X things happens to Blacks more than whites', but that's not proof that it is happening because they are black, and they don't link the various things together.

 

So like it says 'blacks get imprisoned more, and for longer'. but it doesn't consider poverty as a cause. And I don't mean as in 'being poor = more crime' though that is certaintly true, but I mean being poor means you are probably using a shitty underpaid, overworked public defender who has you take a plea deal on a case you can win, or at least take time off of.

 

Or Blacks are in poorer enviroments, so they have worse schools, so they have worse attaintment at SAT's, and so they are less qualified for the workforce. Less blacks get hired because more of the population have criminal records.

 

All those seperate points link and i've even verified if they are true (I'll wager the NAACP is misrepresnting something there)  but they don't link to 'Blacks are systemically oppressed because they are black'. Maybe it proves the oppression, but it proves it in the way that poor people have sheet lives.

 

And that's fine. It's unfortunate, but it's not racism in the same way pre 60's civil rights racism was. It's not racism at all, it's closer to classism.

 

So I have to ask, what equality are you advocating for? Equality of opportunity, where everyone is afford the same legal rights as everyone else, such to the most society can alone one rises and falls on his or her own merits, or equality of outcome, where the aim is to have all groups achieving roughly proportional to what chunk they are of the population

 

Because it sounds like you are arguing for the later. And this has to be explicitly known, because the two different things are advocating for something entirely different.

 

Let me reiterate.

 

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-huge-racial-disparity-in-americas-prisons-2016-6

 

This is about all people of color.  Asian, Latino, Black, etc.  For the same crimes in which whites commit, we are incarcerate for longer periods and at higher rates.  That's unacceptable.  The entire state of Louisiana has more people in prison than all of China.  And these prisons are doing this because they make money off of it.

 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/mass-incarceration/smart-justice/louisiana-locks-more-its-citizens-any-other-state-nation

 

And if you think classism has nothing to do with racism, you would be wrong.

 

I noticed you said we have poorer communities which leads to poorer schools.  So then, why when we ask for educational funding (looking at Louisiana again) is it cut instead for prison funding?  Because they want to keep us locked up.  The more black people who aren't educated, the more crime you get, which means you get more of them in prison, which means prisons make a lot more money.  It's a cycle.  This is true for all poor neighborhoods, but it disproportionately affects more people of color than anyone else in the US.

 

What am I advocating for?  Opportunity.  Because middle and upperclass white communities get whatever they ask for, especially when it comes to education.  This is exactly why we needed affirmative action.  People of color are denied opportunity for education because of poor neighborhoods.  We have to work twice as hard just to get recognized.  So you've answered your own question.

[vla1ne]

I noticed you said we have poorer communities which leads to poorer schools.  So then, why when we ask for educational funding (looking at Louisiana again) is it cut instead for prison funding?  Because they want to keep us locked up.  The more black people who aren't educated, the more crime you get, which means you get more of them in prison, which means prisons make a lot more money.  It's a cycle.  This is true for all poor neighborhoods, but it disproportionately affects more people of color than anyone else in the US.

 

What am I advocating for?  Opportunity.  Because middle and upperclass white communities get whatever they ask for, especially when it comes to education.  This is exactly why we needed affirmative action.  People of color are denied opportunity for education because of poor neighborhoods.  We have to work twice as hard just to get recognized.  So you've answered your own question.

 

please keep in mind, black communities aren't exactly helping with the issue, for reasons stated already in my last post. lack of education is no excuse for glorifying criminals, looting neighborhoods, and putting down educated blacks for simply being "too white". i've already said it, but it bears repeating, black culture, is the most prominently anti-authority culture in america, and it leads to far bigger problems than many other issues of the black community. how can you study when you know the only thing waiting for you in the short term, is other blacks laughing at you for acting white? why would you better yourself, when the most easily accessed success stories of the hood, are those of the drug dealers? why better your mannerisms, when the hood n***a next to you is the one black women most often go after? why would you call the cops when you see a crime? you saw what happened to the last three snitches? why raise a family, when the most prominent image of blacks is the strong black woman who don't need no man? why testify against a criminal? there's nothing in it for you but a bullet from their friends back in the hood. you gotta realize that it's not the law that's keeping us down the most, its other blacks, who reinforce the negative s*** that we need to break away from.

 

opportunity is already there, and kneeing the flag, isn't going to open up that path, in fact, it's more likely to close that path for good. middle class whites (for the most part) don't knee the flag, they go directly to the lawmakers, and b**** at them with their votes. if blacks can consistently do the same, without whipping out the race card at every opportunity then they're liable to get the same results. you are right that we lose out because of poor neighborhoods, but you have to remember, you are a part of a community, in the same way that poorer whites, or even asians will band together to remove the cancers of their community in conjunction with the police,  black people have got to at least try to start cleaning up their own communities.

[Dad]

please keep in mind, black communities aren't exactly helping with the issue, for reasons stated already in my last post. lack of education is no excuse for glorifying criminals, looting neighborhoods, and putting down educated blacks for simply being "too white". i've already said it, but it bears repeating, black culture, is the most prominently anti-authority culture in america, and it leads to far bigger problems than many other issues of the black community. how can you study when you know the only thing waiting for you in the short term, is other blacks laughing at you for acting white? why would you better yourself, when the most easily accessed success stories of the hood, are those of the drug dealers? why better your mannerisms, when the hood n***a next to you is the one black women most often go after? why would you call the cops when you see a crime? you saw what happened to the last three snitches? why raise a family, when the most prominent image of blacks is the strong black woman who don't need no man? why testify against a criminal? there's nothing in it for you but a bullet from their friends back in the hood. you gotta realize that it's not the law that's keeping us down the most, its other blacks, who reinforce the negative s*** that we need to break away from.

 

 

What the funk are you talking about?  No one puts down educated black folks for being white?  If anything the culture is more embracing of education now more than ever.  And that's such a bullshit excuse.  "Putting down blacks for acting white".  Don't come with some funking nuanced statistic and mix it in with anti-authoritative behavior and say its the reason niggas can't get nowhere.  

 

And that fact that you even think intelligence is something we associate with white people only says a lot.  That's among the most pitiful of and irrelevant reasons I've ever heard of.  And this is the first time I'm ever hearing it.  

 

And since you truly believe that we should become drug dealers and give in to the stereotype, why do you even care when someone else protests to try to change that?  It doesn't affect you.  Your priority is making sure we understand that we're lowlife's who hate the police and ain't ever gonna be anything.  You pretend to give a sheet, put us down, and then wonder why people give it.  You're part of the problem my jabroni.  You're one of those "other blacks" you spoke about.  You ain't drug dealer.  But you don't wanna see anybody else succeed.  So keep your mouth shut.

 

The rest of us will keep fighting since you wanna be a funking quitter.  The rest of us intelligent black folk who understand with basic common knowledge that not every cop (black, white, Asian, Latino or otherwise since I seem to keep having to state that for some reason) will give us a beating, are gonna keep lifting the community.  You do you.  Keep telling us we're nothing.  Keep telling us we hate the police.  You're instilling the same poison as the people who do hate us for the color of our skin.

 

And actually, middle class white people have been kneeing the flag with us.  But you ain't paid attention to that cuz it don't fit your rhetoric.  Veterans are kneeling with us.  Singers are kneeling with us.  funking Latinos and Asians are kneeling with us.  But you so ready to tell us that we should stop "disrespecting" the flag that everything around you has been blurred outta your funking vision.  

 

So while I'm cleaning up my community, and Kaepernick is doing the same, your opinion holds no value.  

 

You don't give a funk about the black community.  Stop funking pretending.

[vla1ne]

What the f*** are you talking about?  No one puts down educated black folks for being white?  If anything the culture is more embracing of education now more than ever.  And that's such a bullshit excuse.  "Putting down blacks for acting white".  Don't come with some f***ing nuanced statistic and mix it in with anti-authoritative behavior and say its the reason niggas can't get nowhere.  

 

And that fact that you even think intelligence is something we associate with white people only says a lot.  That's among the most pitiful of and irrelevant reasons I've ever heard of.  And this is the first time I'm ever hearing it.  

 

And since you truly believe that we should become drug dealers and give in to the stereotype, why do you even care when someone else protests to try to change that?  It doesn't affect you.  Your priority is making sure we understand that we're lowlife's who hate the police and ain't ever gonna be anything.  You pretend to give a s***, put us down, and then wonder why people give it.  You're part of the problem my n***a.  You're one of those "other blacks" you spoke about.  You ain't drug dealer.  But you don't wanna see anybody else succeed.  So keep your mouth shut.

 

The rest of us will keep fighting since you wanna be a f***ing quitter.  The rest of us intelligent black folk who understand with basic common knowledge that not every cop (black, white, Asian, Latino or otherwise since I seem to keep having to state that for some reason) will give us a beating, are gonna keep lifting the community.  You do you.  Keep telling us we're nothing.  Keep telling us we hate the police.  You're instilling the same poison as the people who do hate us for the color of our skin.

 

And actually, middle class white people have been kneeing the flag with us.  But you ain't paid attention to that cuz it don't fit your rhetoric.  Veterans are kneeling with us.  Singers are kneeling with us.  f***ing Latinos and Asians are kneeling with us.  But you so ready to tell us that we should stop "disrespecting" the flag that everything around you has been blurred outta your f***ing vision.  

 

So while I'm cleaning up my community, and Kaepernick is doing the same, your opinion holds no value.  

 

You don't give a f*** about the black community.  Stop f***ing pretending.

 

don't act like it doesn't happen. it's become less common, but it was prominent as funk in my neighborhood, i know, because i was one of the main victims.  and notice how i've already, in my second (maybe third) post of this thread already given a shitton of examples of how far blacks have come, so don't act like i ever said we can't get anywhere. i'm saying acknowledge the issues within the community, and try to fix them, before pulling out the race card.

 

again, it's not me, you see it replicated by people in the hood all the damn time, even obama acknowledged it (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/opinion/wright-black-acting-white/index.html), the person who made it to the highest seat in the land, go ahead and tell me it's not an issue to any degree. it may be the first time you've heard it, but it's the sheet i grew up with.

 

this is you being willfully ignorant. you're better than that. name one time i told you to be a drug dealer. i told you here and in many other places, many a time, black people are better than the sheet that you often see in the hood. there's stories for days about this sheet, from black prisoners, black police, and black parents in general, who see the negativity within their neighborhoods, and want better for themselves, their families, and others in their communities. remember the story of the half white half black girl bulled by other blacks till she damn near killed herself? hear the story about the white girl who did kill hersel because of black bullies in a majority black school? both for the same reasons? "acting white" you might not have heard of these problems before today, so i'm glad i introduced you, so that you can help to properly address the sheet. i put you down? no, i'm telling you what's keeping you down. and hoping you have the common funking sense to help get rid of the problems. i'm not gonna blame some invisible systematic bullshit and kneel to a flag, i'm gonna give you actual issues within many black communities, and list what i think would be proper solutions. i didn't just list issues, i told you the issues most damaging from my own experience. i've seen my friends and coworkers succomb to the bullshit that i just listed, i've been called a coon for proposing that freedom of speech protects even those that you disagree with (as recently as yesterday), and i've hung with both whites and blacks, so i can see many of the differences to how both cultures resolve issues so funking clearly that i'm legit shocked that you can't. you damn right i'm not a drug dealer, and name one time i said i don't want to see other blacks succeed. you can't. because i never have, never would, and would never wish to. i'm the guy not dealing drugs, i'm the guy telling you what i've seen, and how it's lead many people, both in my old neighborhoods, and across the country, down the wrong path. so breathe, because i doubt you're thinking rationally right now.

 

i quit? but i'm not the drug dealer, i'm the one living in a $900.00 a month house, aiming for another promotion, working on getting a mortgage in the next few years. if i'm the quitter, then i truly hope every black in america quits the same way i did. you may not hate the police, i'll grant that, but you have a misguided view of the topic, and i really wish you could see it. i lift my community, by not being a criminal, by not encouraging criminals, and by bringing a stable, and positive image into the lives of as many children around me as possible. if you are doing the same, then we have nothing to argue about here, and i wish you the best of luck.

 

so that goes both way then? because every group you listed, is in my own circle as well. we have no reason to claim exclusive rights to any of them. so tell me, what makes us different on this topic? merely our vision of the anthem, and out interpretation of what it represents, although i do have to say, that even though you are right, you have all walks of like kneeing the flag, it does absolutely nothing to negate my point, that point being that many white middle class folk target their local politicians to get the funding to their schools, and they are more often successful in their endeavors for it. maybe you should give it a go. see if this quitters words have any merit to them.

 

did you completely ignore the part where i applauded everything but the flag kneeing? it seems so.

 

i don't give a funk about blacks? maybe, i've had the same thoughts many a time in my life. but again, i spoke facts, not opinion. so whether or not i care means nothing in comparison to whether changing those variables listed will improve the black community.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I feel this has gotten much more complicated than necessary.

 

For the original topic there's a simple thing.

 

If you think the anthem represents something and is important than you'll be upset by this. But many of those who either did this or aren't against this just don't see it that way. It's not something that can be adequately debated because it boils down to a very personal opinion. It's one of those types of tricky topics that makes it feel like both sides are just beating their heads against a wall.

[Dad]

don't act like it doesn't happen. it's become less common, but it was prominent as funk in my neighborhood, i know, because i was one of the main victims.  and notice how i've already, in my second (maybe third) post of this thread already given a shitton of examples of how far blacks have come, so don't act like i ever said we can't get anywhere. i'm saying acknowledge the issues within the community, and try to fix them, before pulling out the race card.

 

again, it's not me, you see it replicated by people in the hood all the damn time, even obama acknowledged it (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/opinion/wright-black-acting-white/index.html), the person who made it to the highest seat in the land, go ahead and tell me it's not an issue to any degree. it may be the first time you've heard it, but it's the sheet i grew up with.

 

this is you being willfully ignorant. you're better than that. name one time i told you to be a drug dealer. i told you here and in many other places, many a time, black people are better than the sheet that you often see in the hood. there's stories for days about this sheet, from black prisoners, black police, and black parents in general, who see the negativity within their neighborhoods, and want better for themselves, their families, and others in their communities. remember the story of the half white half black girl bulled by other blacks till she damn near killed herself? hear the story about the white girl who did kill hersel because of black bullies in a majority black school? both for the same reasons? "acting white" you might not have heard of these problems before today, so i'm glad i introduced you, so that you can help to properly address the sheet. i put you down? no, i'm telling you what's keeping you down. and hoping you have the common funking sense to help get rid of the problems. i'm not gonna blame some invisible systematic bullshit and kneel to a flag, i'm gonna give you actual issues within many black communities, and list what i think would be proper solutions. i didn't just list issues, i told you the issues most damaging from my own experience. i've seen my friends and coworkers succomb to the bullshit that i just listed, i've been called a coon for proposing that freedom of speech protects even those that you disagree with (as recently as yesterday), and i've hung with both whites and blacks, so i can see many of the differences to how both cultures resolve issues so funking clearly that i'm legit shocked that you can't. you damn right i'm not a drug dealer, and name one time i said i don't want to see other blacks succeed. you can't. because i never have, never would, and would never wish to. i'm the guy not dealing drugs, i'm the guy telling you what i've seen, and how it's lead many people, both in my old neighborhoods, and across the country, down the wrong path. so breathe, because i doubt you're thinking rationally right now.

 

i quit? but i'm not the drug dealer, i'm the one living in a $900.00 a month house, aiming for another promotion, working on getting a mortgage in the next few years. if i'm the quitter, then i truly hope every black in america quits the same way i did. you may not hate the police, i'll grant that, but you have a misguided view of the topic, and i really wish you could see it. i lift my community, by not being a criminal, by not encouraging criminals, and by bringing a stable, and positive image into the lives of as many children around me as possible. if you are doing the same, then we have nothing to argue about here, and i wish you the best of luck.

 

so that goes both way then? because every group you listed, is in my own circle as well. we have no reason to claim exclusive rights to any of them. so tell me, what makes us different on this topic? merely our vision of the anthem, and out interpretation of what it represents, although i do have to say, that even though you are right, you have all walks of like kneeing the flag, it does absolutely nothing to negate my point, that point being that many white middle class folk target their local politicians to get the funding to their schools, and they are more often successful in their endeavors for it. maybe you should give it a go. see if this quitters words have any merit to them.

 

did you completely ignore the part where i applauded everything but the flag kneeing? it seems so.

 

i don't give a funk about blacks? maybe, i've had the same thoughts many a time in my life. but again, i spoke facts, not opinion. so whether or not i care means nothing in comparison to whether changing those variables listed will improve the black community.

 

I would know jabroni cuz I been there.  I took two niggas off the street and got em clean and helped em find jobs.  We been friends for three years now and both those niggas just got into college.  So don't come at me with that self righteous bullshit like you the only one who suffered.  You pretentious as funk.  

 

And my people regularly go to council meetings in the city.  And just cuz you pretend to have love for them people don't mean you do.  Saying something and something being implied is the same thing.  When you start raggin on us, you speaking that evil onto my people.  And you spittin facts, you right.  But I have yet to fuckin hear you talk about whatchu doing for the community you got so much malice for.  For all the praise you pretend to give us, you love to look down on us.  What have you actually fuckin done since you so in touch with our struggle?

 

Have you gone to any of the meetings?  Have you participated in city council and made your voice heard? Have you been apart of any big brother programs to teach these young niggas how to stay off the street?  Have you done anything?  I'm not saying you haven't.  I'm straight up asking you.  What have you done?

 

Because I've done it all.  From feeding the homeless, to big brother programs, cleaning up my own neighborhood, all of it.  And I'm still in class and working too.  So what have you contributed?

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

 

 

 Zero Tolerance:  Threads will not be allowed to devolve into senseless flaming, hate-filled rhetoric, or mud slinging.  If you cannot deconstruct an opposing argument in a civilized manner, you will be removed or punished accordingly.  

 

Reminding everyone to remain on topic and keep discussion on this matter civil. 

 

You may continue to discuss the original topic and/or the situations that warranted the "taking a knee during the anthem" movement. However, do not use this topic to attack other user's opinions nor berate each other for what you have/not done to address racial inequality in the United States.

 

(Dad, remember that you are the one who drafted the quoted rule while you were on the force. Please abide by it.)

 

----

(Yui and Zai are both not around at this time, so that's why I'm saying this before things get out of hand.)

[Dad]

I appreciate the warning.  I don't plan on coming back.  I'm done with debates.  I appreciate it tho.

[vla1ne]

I would know n***a cuz I been there.  I took two niggas off the street and got em clean and helped em find jobs.  We been friends for three years now and both those niggas just got into college.  So don't come at me with that self righteous bullshit like you the only one who suffered.  You pretentious as f***.  

 

And my people regularly go to council meetings in the city.  And just cuz you pretend to have love for them people don't mean you do.  Saying something and something being implied is the same thing.  When you start raggin on us, you speaking that evil onto my people.  And you spittin facts, you right.  But I have yet to f***in hear you talk about whatchu doing for the community you got so much malice for.  For all the praise you pretend to give us, you love to look down on us.  What have you actually f***in done since you so in touch with our struggle?

 

Have you gone to any of the meetings?  Have you participated in city council and made your voice heard? Have you been apart of any big brother programs to teach these young niggas how to stay off the street?  Have you done anything?  I'm not saying you haven't.  I'm straight up asking you.  What have you done?

 

Because I've done it all.  From feeding the homeless, to big brother programs, cleaning up my own neighborhood, all of it.  And I'm still in class and working too.  So what have you contributed?

again, i've already given ample example of blacks getting far in life, and you have continuously seen my applause of blacks who make it in the world, from the day i joined this forum to today. your initial statement was a denial of the issue i presented, i countered said statement with experience, and then pointed out that you either misinterpreted, or flat out missed, the rest of my words, nothing about that is pretentious.

 

to clear this misunderstanding up as quickly as possible: when did i say i have love for blacks as a whole? i have love for black people on a case by case, i have no love for the group as a whole (before any variant of this shot can be made, i have no love for any race as a whole). you will probably get mad at me for this, and i honestly don't know if i care. i'm not trying to make myself a savior, i'm the guy who saw all the s*** in the hood, said f*** that, and left it on my own (currently, i still live among blacks, in a peaceful neighborhood, where i have yet to see the bullshit that goes down in the hood). but besides that, please don't act as if it's spreading evil when i point out flaws i've seen that need fixing. no matter my own position, the issues remain. unlesss you can tell me the issues don't exist, then my points remain standing. but because i do have a few merits in the area, i may as well use them: i talk to younger, and even older black people, at work, outside work, and elsewhere, trying to spread the idea that people need to prevent their families from falling into the traps. wherever i encounter discussions where race is used as a prominent excuse. i involve myself with friends and family, and even friends of family, so that they don't ever feel the need to go down the wrong paths, or to blame other people. that's what i do, and that's all i need to do, i support my family, and my friends, anything else is overtime work for me.

 

I never go to meetings, because i don't have time, i do keep up with my city events, and vote accordingly, i am a big brother to my old library, in the s*** neighborhood, using yugioh to bring younger kids in the neighborhood into a fold that isn't centered on acting hood. look up the mundy branch library in syracuse if you want details on that. we help the kids in the neighborhood build decks, provide snacks, give them a place to relax, and all manner of other things. it's not directly about keeping kids out of the hood troubles, but that's one of the end results, and it's something that most of the kids involved, even those who grow out of the game, keep with them.

 

i contribute to family and friends, my family and friends, i will ensure, do not succumb to the problems that the hood brings, and those in my fold, i do not abandon. though in the long term, i do have plans to build homes for homeless men in cities like syracuse, to help them get back on their feet. not like the rescue mission, but something more personal, when i have the money.

 

but we've kind of gotten off track.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Let me reiterate.

 

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/study-finds-huge-racial-disparity-in-americas-prisons-2016-6

 

This is about all people of color.  Asian, Latino, Black, etc.  For the same crimes in which whites commit, we are incarcerate for longer periods and at higher rates.  That's unacceptable.  The entire state of Louisiana has more people in prison than all of China.  And these prisons are doing this because they make money off of it.

 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/mass-incarceration/smart-justice/louisiana-locks-more-its-citizens-any-other-state-nation

 

And if you think classism has nothing to do with racism, you would be wrong.

 

I noticed you said we have poorer communities which leads to poorer schools.  So then, why when we ask for educational funding (looking at Louisiana again) is it cut instead for prison funding?  Because they want to keep us locked up.  The more black people who aren't educated, the more crime you get, which means you get more of them in prison, which means prisons make a lot more money.  It's a cycle.  This is true for all poor neighborhoods, but it disproportionately affects more people of color than anyone else in the US.

 

What am I advocating for?  Opportunity.  Because middle and upperclass white communities get whatever they ask for, especially when it comes to education.  This is exactly why we needed affirmative action.  People of color are denied opportunity for education because of poor neighborhoods.  We have to work twice as hard just to get recognized.  So you've answered your own question.

 

I don't know why Louisiana does that. I don't know why any state does that. I know why a state may want to slash the budget it spends on education, because higher levcels of funding haven't been shown to improve performance historically, and I know why states may want more prison funding because of potential overcrowding, but I don't know why they are doing this. Can you show proof of the motive? Not taking the results and going 'see look, motive', but actual proof this is what they intended. Because if not, you are attributing motive to them which is serving as confirmation bias.

 

It affecting persons of colours more than other people doesn't make it Racism. It's not being done to you, because you are black, it's being done because you are poor, or because you commit more crime, and you happen to be black. If racism, or equivilant sexism and homophobia, is defined as anything that happens to happen to a community a disproportionate amount, which is what you seem to be implying here, then heart disease is racist because it affects more blacks.

 

Just extract yourself from your bias for a second, forget the fact it's blacks, and think about these statements:

• A community that commits more crime has more individuals from that community in jail.
• People that have a worse education, and worse results, aren't able to get into universities as freely as those with better.
•  

Why would you expect anything different here? Why should the system force the outcome of this to change without changing the underlying causes? Or put race back into it: Why would the black community perform as well as the white community given the measurable differences between them?

 

And before it is said: I don't think that blacks are perform inferior because they are black. I think they are performing inferior, because every measurable indication of performance suggests they should be performing inferior. And that those indications are what need to be fixed, not forcing the outcomes to be better as it stands right now. Because one is improving society, and one is marxism.

 

EDIT: And I do want to see better for your community, just as I want to see better for the impoverished in London. But I think placing so much blame on 'the system' does more harm than good. The messages need to be 'yeah, it's gonna suck, but if you want to drag the community out of it's hole, you have to put the work in yourself, get a job, get a family, stay away from drugs, and gangs', not 'the system is pressing down on you, and there's nothing we can do till it's changed'.

 

The fact that you seem to do this, is great, you are a good man for doing so. But people need to have the will to improve themselves. Because life is unfair, and society is not there to support you (And I mean that very everyone. Life would be better if people stop expecting the state to baby them)

[Sunshine Jesse]

My opinion is that no form of nonviolent protest is inherently more objectionable than any other form of nonviolent protest.

 

But I'm also not in denial or ignorant towards the reasons behind this protest, nor am I a triggered right-wing snowflake, so I guess it's not entirely relevant to me.

[vla1ne]

My opinion is that no form of nonviolent protest is inherently more objectionable than any other form of nonviolent protest.

 

But I'm also not in denial or ignorant towards the reasons behind this protest, nor am I a triggered right-wing snowflake, so I guess it's not entirely relevant to me.

well, i agree with the first, but to the second, the way i see it is, 1) why the anthem? and 2) why use the NFL?

 

for the first, if you don't view it as important, then you wouldn't use it in protest, but if you do view it as important (or as a symbol of the country), then you should understand not only where trump was coming from when he said what he did (agreement is optional), but why it is foolish to knee the flag not only to protest trumps words, but in general.

 

as for the second, this is dragging politics into entertainment, specifically an entertainment stage where politics really should not tread. patriotism inserted is one thing, pride in the same country, no matter the teams, can boost morale and respect for all parties, but when used in this manner, it creates far more problems than it will feasibly solve, and will undoubtedly cost the NFL in revenue, because many people will be either turned off simply because it's politics in entertainment, and others will object to the protest itself on the grounds that it's an unneeded protest, in an area where few would even wish for politics to tread in the first place.

[VampireofDarkness]

Want to give an update to my stance on this. I am a bit more strongly in favor of this because the "Boycott the NFL" thing is becoming nonsensical at this point. A post that has spread it has gone as far as to appear in several YGO Discord groups I am in, and on FB when I was pushed it and was asked to spread it whereas I declined, I was shunned for not supporting your troops and for being Anti-American. This is where I draw the line. Do NOT force your views onto anyone else and shame them if they don't agree.

[vla1ne]

Want to give an update to my stance on this. I am a bit more strongly in favor of this because the "Boycott the NFL" thing is becoming nonsensical at this point. A post that has spread it has gone as far as to appear in several YGO Discord groups I am in, and on FB when I was pushed it and was asked to spread it whereas I declined, I was shunned for not supporting your troops and for being Anti-American. This is where I draw the line. Do NOT force your views onto anyone else and shame them if they don't agree.

that... sucks. shunning people for not agreeing, especially in the case of boycotts, is just ignorant. boycotting the nfl was a predictable backlash, and something nt really upsetting, since it's a relatively reasonable response. but shunning people for not doing so is not the way to go about it. whether or not people agree that it's unamerican, it's not a good idea to try and shame people for not agreeing, it's one of the things that made groups like antifa as massive of an enemy as they've become today.

[a bad post]

This is a pointless debate because black people will never be able to properly protest in this country. Peaceful protests are met with riot gear and assault weapons just the same as the riots. There is no form of protest people will accept from oppressed communities because it forces them to actually confront the injustices that they could ignore earlier. 

 

Also, I'd like to remind the people saying that he should keep politics out of entertainment that there is a literal reality television star running the damn country so, like, perhaps remove your head from your ass kindly. 

[vla1ne]

This is a pointless debate because black people will never be able to properly protest in this country. Peaceful protests are met with riot gear and assault weapons just the same as the riots. There is no form of protest people will accept from oppressed communities because it forces them to actually confront the injustices that they could ignore earlier. 

 

Also, I'd like to remind the people saying that he should keep politics out of entertainment that there is a literal reality television star running the damn country so, like, perhaps remove your head from your ass kindly.

that is not true, by any means. there have been numerous peaceful black protests, none before the 1980's, and very few through the 1900's,  but 2000-2010/15 saw some really nice ones. though if you mean the recent trend, that does in fact follow a parallel trend of violent protests (not just black people, but the fact that a trend of violent protests is currently occurring, does warrant protective gear regardless of supposed peace no?). protests are, by nature something that will create divided opinions. my personal point of view is the thing that is being protested is not so great an an issue any longer, as to warrant such protest, and that the thing protested, would be best handled at this point, by the community in question moving to clean itself up or at least separate from the negative folk within. but as i believe i have said already individual perceptions may vary.

 

also, one of your points was a star entering politics, the other was a star bringing politics into entertainment. see the issue there? politics can, and does, take in anything, but not just anything can, or should, be taking in politics. the NFL, is one of the things that should not, and arguably cannot, take in politics if it wishes to remain lucrative (aka draw in as many fans as possible) by any means. no matter the view, politics is divisive, and outside of team rivalries, the NFL does not need that, nor is it healthy for them.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's very simple:

 

1) I don't like it

a) I feel it demeans the country and the police

b) Our enemies love this kinda division, and it's plausible that makes for good propaganda. 

 

ex. http://thehill.com/policy/technology/358025-thousands-attended-protest-organized-by-russians-on-facebook

 

2) It's currently legal. Until that changes, he has the right to kneel or w/e

 

3) I have the right not watch the NFL 

 

4) I will do (3) until they change their company policy 

[Tentacruel]

Oh boy, I'm kinda sad I missed this topic.  I know this is an old thread and it seems it's been discussed already, but I'd like to throw in my two cents as it's still going on and people are still boycotting the NFL.

 

I broke it down into bullet points. :)  Nothing is directed at anyone here, but just at things I've seen in this debate in general.

 

1) I do agree with the sentiment behind why players are kneeling.  (For the most part, Kaepernick has said some dumb sheet, like defending Castro)

 

2) I do think the form of protest is at least somewhat disrespectful to what many people, myself included, feel the flag represents.  The flag, from my perspective, is not representative of all aspects of America 100% of the time, our country will never be perfect.  The flag is not a symbol of the alt-right, neo nazi element in America. 

 

3) That being said, I can understand.  Non-participation is a non-violent form of protest.  People have said that they're okay with protest as long as it's non violent, well here it is.

 

4) A lot of people are gonna throw tantrums no matter how you protest this because they have a problem with racial aspect, and are full of sheet when they say they're only mad about the anthem.

 

5) It is their right to protest in such a manner, but likewise it is the NFL's right to take or not take disciplinary action against them and it is viewers right to boycott depending on that decision.

 

6) I do not agree at all with the idea that football players are entertainers and they need to shut up and entertain.  You didn't funking say that when Tim Tebow was Tebow'ing.   (whom I do support, as an aside).  Also, the players aren't protesting because they personally feel oppressed, but are using their visibility and platform to protest on behalf of those who are, so the entitlement argument isn't valid from my perspective.

 

7) As much as I support the players right to protest, is anyone actually talking about racism because of this?  From what I've seen it's mostly been people debating on whether it's okay to sit down during the national anthem at a football game or not. 

 

8) I understand why people are offended but I do wish people wouldn't get so defensive and aggressive about it, and at least listen to the concerns being brought forward through this protest.