On the topic of taking the knee (in the NFL or elsewhere)

[vla1ne]

well, considering the necro, and the near revival of he who must not be named, i suppose this would be as good a time as any to try reviving the section, so let's start simple, as it says in the title, one the topic of taking the knee, A captain falcon tribute i'd like to discuss with you all, what side do you find yourselves on, and why? do you agree with this trend of kneeling instead of standing for the national anthem, that's currently sweeping the NFL?

 

the fire was sparked further with trumps public disapproval of the action, and has, apparently only continued to gather steam.

 

but as usual, i'll start with my own opinions if you care to read them

[spoiler=Personally]

i can't approve of it. to me, it's simply disgraceful that people would refuse to honor the anthem of the country that they live in over what, to me, is such a trivial reason. i mean, i get it, america has had, and does continue to have many issues, but nothing, and i mean nothing about the america we live in today, is bad enough to disrespect the anthem of this country, and to me, while those who do choose to kneel are clearly free to do so under the 1st amendment, they should honestly find the nearest train, plane, or bus tickets, and move to whatever other country they believe would be a better fit for them, because it is not just an insult to the president, but it's honestly a blatant insult to the people who have actually fought, lost limbs, suffered, bled, and died, for the rights that they possess today. 

 

tl;dr, kneeling to the anthem is an insult to america, not to trump. and those who do so, can only do so, because Americans have bled and died to sustain that right.

 

 

 

[VampireofDarkness]

I personally am fine with it. I don't 100% agree with the sentiment behind it, but I at least get it and believe it is in their right to do so. It is like when Rage Against the Machine burned the American flag, and as I understood the symbolism and was fine with that, I can't see how I could view this as any different. It has nothing to do with the soldiers, which I'm sure they would gladly honor if given the chance to do so, but sometimes when they see that flag and hear that anthem, it means more then just what soldiers have fought for. That being said, I totally understand why it gets the backlash it does, and I'm sure they realize they are asking for it. However, to as a result of doing this action berade them with threats to leave the country (Not a response to yours, these are just things I have legitimately seen and are much worse then what you said), to go out of your way to condemn these people, and shun them like they are extremists, I don't see that as getting us anywhere. I am legitimately worried about my country's future and where it is going, and sometimes the overreaction in our country to things like this make me feel that way even stronger. It's ok to disagree, it's okay to even spite, but to act on such spite in these extremes makes you just as bad as you claim the other side to be.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I feel anyone has the right to do it. I don't stand for the anthem because it's just a song nothing more. I don't believe it really represents anything itself. My choice to not do it represents the freedoms that was fought for more than the song does.

Saying that someone MUST stand for it in of itself disgusts me. Because it's saying that people should stand, not because they want to, but because they have to in order to be a good American. It's basically dictating what a proper American is and not letting anyone choose.

The reason it's used as a protest is simply because it's something well known and it is non-harmful yet noticeable.

This recent thing made me happy because it showed the NFL players being united and "standing" together to fight against something they believe is wrong. It's a beautiful example of what freedom means. And, as long as they aren't punished for it, it shows that this country is a place of love and freedom. Where someone can do something where in some other countries would be unthinkable.

 

Edit: And saying "It's in their right but I don't think they should live here" is not much different than saying "They have no right to do it".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Short response, so I apologize in advance, but in my opinion, if there isn't a choice in taking the knee for the national anthem, the gesture loses a lot of meaning. Lambasting people for expressing their beliefs in any way that doesn't harm others is just ridiculous.

[vla1ne]

 

Edit: And saying "It's in their right but I don't think they should live here" is not much different than saying "They have no right to do it".

they have the right to live here, and they have the right to take the knee, the first amendment guarantees the second, and i would not revoke neither the first or the second, even if i had the power to do so (which would be very hypocritical of me, especially considering many of my positions rely strongly on freedom of speech, and respecting even the ideas that i disagree with). but what annoys me, and what makes me hold my stance of "go somewhere else and try that" is their reasoning, and their target. said target being the national anthem, which is the song of the country itself. to take the knee, when said song is playing, especially in the stadium itself, and as a prominent figure, is unquestionably protected by freedom of speech, but it is no less disrespectful to the many veterans, and to the many americans, to whom the song literally represents america.

 

it is, to me, a sign that you don't respect what the song represents (which to the people upset by it, including me, this song represents america, the very same country defending the act of the knee.)

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

[spoiler=Thoughts]

I don't mind NFL players taking a knee during the national anthem to express their grievances, although the backlash is to be expected and they knew this. Yes, we've had men and women (of all types) die to protect our rights, but taken into the broader picture, are we talking about rights for ALL citizens of this country or rights extended to only a handful of people? Right now, the political climate in here favors the latter (unequal treatment towards minorities).

 

As a culture, yeah, you are expected to stand for the national anthem, BUT there is no law that requires you to do so. As such, this falls as an ethics-based thing; you can/will get shunned by society or the larger group (which is the case here), but you cannot face legal consequences, despite Trump tweeting his ass off about wanting to fire NFL players who do this and forcing legal consequences.

 

If this were the Olympics or something where you are representing the United States, then yes, you need to stand. 

 

===

 

I stand for the anthem because this is the only country I ever know as a home (and likely will be), but it doesn't mean that I support everything that we've done over the years, especially now. Though, last time I ever did this publicly was a couple years ago when I was at a martial arts tournament (some which were on military reservations, so...you'd have to).

 

Or take into consideration having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, which mentions God (and certainly not everyone in this country practices Christianity/Catholicism or believes in a divine entity). Are you not considered a true American for not reciting that or standing for the national anthem?

 

[For reference, this was a thing during elementary school (reciting the pledge every morning); I don't know if they are still doing so now or was only restricted to where I attended, because intermediate and onward didn't do this.]

 

====

Would you rather have someone protest like this or the riots that the mainland US is known for nowadays in response to these things [breaking windows, violent clashes with law enforcement, counter protesters, etc]? The latter has legal ramifications; this doesn't (but carries a ethical weight as noted above).

 

[spoiler=Side note about ethics because it was mentioned]

I took a Ethics course last semester (and doing lab leader work for same professor this fall); this was a journal topic that I had to write about [and subsequently grade/review for this semester in the recent scenario; mine was when Kaepernick started the trend].

 

The actions taken by Kaepernick and everyone else nowadays fall under rules-based (well, as the professor defines it; you may have a different classification based on your instructor / what they believe in). They're doing this to express a rule/principle that they want everyone else to follow; in this case, racial equality / justice.

 

 

 

 

 

tl;dr, as much as I disagree on them bringing politics into football, I've no issue with it (though not 100% supporting).

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

they have the right to live here, and they have the right to take the knee, the first amendment guarantees the second, and i would not revoke neither the first or the second, even if i had the power to do so (which would be very hypocritical of me, especially considering many of my positions rely strongly on freedom of speech, and respecting even the ideas that i disagree with). but what annoys me, and what makes me hold my stance of "go somewhere else and try that" is their reasoning, and their target. said target being the national anthem, which is the song of the country itself. to take the knee, when said song is playing, especially in the stadium itself, and as a prominent figure, is unquestionably protected by freedom of speech, but it is no less disrespectful to the many veterans, and to the many americans, to whom the song literally represents america.

 

it is, to me, a sign that you don't respect what the song represents (which to the people upset by it, including me, this song represents america, the very same country defending the act of the knee.)

I can't be sure but are you saying that if someone doesn't like something about a place they should, instead of protest it, just leave?

 

In either case I think the issue here is I hold no respect for something as vague as a representation or a "country" as a whole. To me the country doesn't matter except to be a place to live on. The song doesn't matter because it is just something some people long ago came up with as a rallying cry. What matters to me is people respecting each other in their daily lives.

 

What the song represents is different for each person. For those who initially took the knee it represented problems within the country they were protesting.

 

Respect should not be something just given just because. (not talking about common respect such as not being an ass) To me respect should be given to individuals based on their individual merit. You can say that not standing for the anthem is disrespecting those veterans but it's only doing so if you think of it that way.

You're putting the idea that the anthem represents the country. Can you see where that could be unhealthy? What's there to be gained by that? So many people have made things such as the flag or the anthem into something "sacred". Which only leads to getting upset if someone doesn't treat it with the same "sacredness" that they do.

 

I feel the country would benefit greatly from worrying less about representations of the country and more the country, and its people, itself.

[~~~~]

It's very symbolic and I don't tend to have much credence in purely symbolic gestures, be that standing or kneeling for a song. However, it clearly means something to Trump, considering that he hopes that NFL owners say "Get that son of a jabroni off the field right now, out, he's fired. He's fired!". And any way that we can piss off Trump is a good thing imo.

[vla1ne]

I can't be sure but are you saying that if someone doesn't like something about a place they should, instead of protest it, just leave?

 

In either case I think the issue here is I hold no respect for something as vague as a representation or a "country" as a whole. To me the country doesn't matter except to be a place to live on. The song doesn't matter because it is just something some people long ago came up with as a rallying cry. What matters to me is people respecting each other in their daily lives.

 

What the song represents is different for each person. For those who initially took the knee it represented problems within the country they were protesting.

 

Respect should not be something just given just because. (not talking about common respect such as not being an ass) To me respect should be given to individuals based on their individual merit. You can say that not standing for the anthem is disrespecting those veterans but it's only doing so if you think of it that way.

You're putting the idea that the anthem represents the country. Can you see where that could be unhealthy? What's there to be gained by that? So many people have made things such as the flag or the anthem into something "sacred". Which only leads to getting upset if someone doesn't treat it with the same "sacredness" that they do.

 

I feel the country would benefit greatly from worrying less about representations of the country and more the country, and its people, itself.

no, i'm saying that they have more in this country than they realize, and that their complaints, for the most part. were addressed a while ago. the "go somewhere else" is me saying that they should look at, or try living in countries that aren't the united states, if they want to see what serious inequality is, because we no longer have that. america, as it is now, is a country where everyone can reach every platform, so long as they strive for it.

 

that is the foundation of my "then why not live elsewhere?" claim if you do not care about what country you live in, of believe that the countries issues are so grievous that you should no longer respect it's rallying song, then why america? what in your eyes makes this land better to live on than any other, and if you have no reason, then why stay? why not find a better country/land to live on? the rallying cry, represents those people respecting each other in their lives, and defending each other if need be, and many have died, in support of this country. in support of the systems that make this country unique, and in support of the anthem that embodies it.

 

which problems? because the main ones i've heard have ben racism and sexism, which are both ignorant no matter how i look at them. racial equality, has come a long way, and at the point we are now, it's all but been bridged (a few areas do need patching, but it's an airtight ship for the most part). where and what exactly are minorities unable to go/do even if they wish to? so far as i know, we have black people living in all areas of america, we have black, mexican, and asian, lawmakers, police officers, millionaires, billionaires, soldiers, firefighters, athletes, lawyers, scientists, judges, politicians, and all other manner of power holding status. we have things like affirmative action, which give minorities a leg up, we have dozens of support systems for women and children of all walks of life, any assault on a minority is blown up in the news, and the criminal is represented as nothing but villainous anywhere short of fox news, same goes for rape, we see the listen and believe narrative used more than the idea of innocent until proven guilty, we've seen the venom directed at anybody who so much as thinks white pride is something nice to have, we just had the highest office in the land held by a minority for 8 years, we've seen people being attacked and shunned the second anybody so much as labels them a nazi (they don't even have to be a nazi, they just have to be called one) we've seen freedom of speech trampled, so long as the opponent was either a straight white male or a right leaning conservative, but we still have oh so much inequality. it's honestly annoying. morgan freeman was the only one who has the right idea imo, you want things like racial bias to vanish? then don't talk about it, because we've reached the point, where we could honestly fly far beyond the bounds of race, into a truly equal society, but nobody wants to put the damn race card down, and this is where it leads us.

 

 

the representation of the country, is the face of the country that is what flags and anthems are for. when you see a countries flag, you are seeing the representation of that country, no matter where you are. if you hear a countries anthem, you are hearing the cry of that country, no matter where you are. that is why we take care of our flag, and why we stand for our anthem. those things that we hold sacred are held in such esteem, because we take pride in our country. because even abroad, they represent our homeland, where we come from, and what ideas we bring with us. the same pride you would take in your house, we take in the country that we live in. that pride helps us to improve this country. to see somebody disrespect it, is to see the image of your home disrespected, and the right to do so, should not be confused with it being the right thing to do. try africa, the middle east, mexico, china, or even japan to an extent. there's a lot of places where racial and gender equality model needs addressing (among other models), america used to be one of them, it is no longer even remotely at the top of that list, likely not even the lower middle, you don't have to take pride in the country you live in, or it's symbols, but there are countries with policies and traditions directly in opposition, they are the values that make one country unique, and make it a place worth remaining in. america, for all it' flaws, is a country that i am proud to wear on my sleeve, and it's anthem is something that i have, and would always, sing with pride. because it take pride in my country, its people, it's values, and it's customs, and the anthem is just that, the representation of all that is america, that is why it is our national anthem, because it is the song that identifies america, americans, and the american way of life. not one other song holds that position.

 

for comparison: https://scroll.in/article/772669/stand-for-the-national-anthem-heres-how-other-countries-treat-the-issue

[Dad]

If you think taking the knee on the field has anything to do with the anthem or the flag, you haven't been paying attention.

[ShimoHkun1]

It really depends on how you view the flag and why it's done in the first place. If the flag (or anthem or both) represents those who fought and died for our country (assuming you're American), then of course you will see this as disrespectful, but it may not have been intended to be. These players are perfectly within their rights as American citizens to protest this, but that does not mean that all people have to accept it either.

 

Really the whole thing seems very childish to me, as the original meaning has been lost, as Dad said. Now the purpose of it is to antagonize the President, which even if you don't like him, he isn't going anywhere and he got elected fair and square. Regardless of your feeling about him, he is also protected by the 1st amendment too. There could be other ways to protest Trump without doing something that could be viewed as disrespectful (not agreeable, just not disrespectful).

 

Following this logic I could fly a Confederate or Nazi flag in my front yard and no one could prevent me from doing so. Chew on that for a bit.

[Dad]

It really depends on how you view the flag and why it's done in the first place. If the flag (or anthem or both) represents those who fought and died for our country (assuming you're American), then of course you will see this as disrespectful, but it may not have been intended to be. These players are perfectly within their rights as American citizens to protest this, but that does not mean that all people have to accept it either.

 

Really the whole thing seems very childish to me, as the original meaning has been lost, as Dad said. Now the purpose of it is to antagonize the President, which even if you don't like him, he isn't going anywhere and he got elected fair and square. Regardless of your feeling about him, he is also protected by the 1st amendment too. There could be other ways to protest Trump without doing something that could be viewed as disrespectful (not agreeable, just not disrespectful).

 

Following this logic I could fly a Confederate or Nazi flag in my front yard and no one could prevent me from doing so. Chew on that for a bit.

 

It has nothing to do with Trump either.  Why do people keep saying this?  

 

Alright let's first talk about history.  Since y'all (if it applies to you, it applies to you) like to harp on the National Anthem, here are some resources for you and how it came about in sports.

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/6957582/the-history-national-anthem-sports-espn-magazine

 

It's a war anthem in case you didn't know.  Celebratory of victory over our enemies.  It also costs you a lot of money every time those jets fly over for a football game.

 

And some US Flag Codes that I'm pretty sure you violate regularly that you're suddenly not offended by:

 

US Flag Code Chapter 10.176 D

 

The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

 

US Flag Code Chapter 10.176C

 

The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.

 

 

The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

 

US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I

 

The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner, whatsoever.

 

US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I (pt. 2)

 

It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.

 

US Flag Code Chapter 10.176J

 

No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.

 

With that out of the way, let's address what the protest is even about since you bastards still don't know.

 

Kapernick started taking a knee last year while President Obama was still in office.  During this time, the national outrage was (for some) due to the killing of unarmed black men by police violence.  This was when Kapernick began to use his platform as a football player to draw attention to the movement.  He kneels because he, like the victims of police violence (mostly black but also Latino, Asian, Native, and white victims of police violence) are not free.  He kneels because there is an epidemic in this country where police officers (black, white, Asian, Latino officers) are out of control.  There are many outstanding officers who do their job's effectively and we are grateful for them.  But the ones who continuously kill unarmed men and women and children (mostly of color) are why this protest is happening.

 

You're welcome.

[Aerion Brightflame]

So by any chance Dad, do you know which examples specifically drove Kaperneach to embracing this... daring form of protest? Because if it's the examples I'm aware of then Kaperneach is either ignorant or a hack.

 

For the record on this issue:

 

Whilst refusing to show deference to the National Anthem and flag sends out arguably worrying messages about someones feelings for their nation, they have every right to do so. Same with the flag. I actually disagree with all of Dad's cited examples of 'Flag code' (Which seems like one of the most pointless sets of laws I've ever read), and think that if you personally own the flag you can whatever the hell you want with it.

 

I'm not shocked that a culture of lack of deference exists, because I think for many people, pride in your nation has been beaten out of them since they were young. They've been told their nation sucks, is racist, is sexist is the source of all evil, and that all other nations are doing it better. When the reality is far from that. It is unfortunate, but not shocking.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I'm not shocked that a culture of lack of deference exists, because I think for many people, pride in your nation has been beaten out of them since they were young. They've been told their nation sucks, is racist, is sexist is the source of all evil, and that all other nations are doing it better. When the reality is far from that. It is unfortunate, but not shocking.

And then, when they are attacked for trying to express these feelings, it pushes them even further away. Much more good would be accomplished by explaining why you feel these things are worth praising, rather than insulting those involved.

 

The players kneel instead of stand because they feel their nation isn't doing right by them. Calling them a disgrace only makes them sure of it.

[Dad]

So by any chance Dad, do you know which examples specifically drove Kaperneach to embracing this... daring form of protest? Because if it's the examples I'm aware of then Kaperneach is either ignorant or a hack.

 

 

It was after Freddie Gray took a spine injury from a police officer with a knee to his back.  It was also after Tamir Rice was gunned down in under two seconds of a police officer emerged from his car.  If you want to live in a country where it's mandatory to stand up for the flag, you can go to North Korea.

 

 

 I actually disagree with all of Dad's cited examples of 'Flag code' 

 

 

It's not "cited examples".  It's part of the law.  We even have toilet paper, napkins, and curtains made out of representations of our flag.  You can literally wipe your ass with the American flag.  And no one will tell you anything about it.

 

Why is that not "offensive" or "disrespectful" but taking a knee is?

 

 

I'm not shocked that a culture of lack of deference exists, because I think for many people, pride in your nation has been beaten out of them since they were young. They've been told their nation sucks, is racist, is sexist is the source of all evil, and that all other nations are doing it better. When the reality is far from that. It is unfortunate, but not shocking.

 

When Trump started his campaign and said America wasn't great, people rallied behind him.  When Kapernick said it, people booed him.

 

What's the difference?

 

And yeah, we are one of the best countries in the world.  Even more so because we have the right to protest (peacefully as Kaepernick and many players are doing) to institute a change.  But if we don't protest in a manner that "doesn't offend" people's delicate senses of "patriotism" we should be quiet.  Nah.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

It was also after Trevon Martin was gunned down in under two seconds of a police officer emerged from his car.

Trayvon Martin was killed by a neighborhood watch member, not a cop, and honestly the entire case was such a mess that anyone trying to use it as a hard point for either side is talking out of their ass.

 

Unless you are talking about someone else, which google showed nothing for.

 

It's not "cited examples".  It's part of the law.  We even have toilet paper, napkins, and curtains made out of representations of our flag.  You can literally wipe your ass with the American flag.  And no one will tell you anything about it.

People absolutely lose their sheet over stuff regarding the flag, I don't know what you are on about.

[Dad]

Trayvon Martin was killed by a neighborhood watch member, not a cop, and honestly the entire case was such a mess that anyone trying to use it as a hard point for either side is talking out of their ass.

 

Unless you are talking about someone else, which google showed nothing for.

 

People absolutely lose their sheet over stuff regarding the flag, I don't know what you are on about.

 

whoops that was tamir rice.  Thanks for the fix.

 

But yeah I don't see anyone getting pissed about flag napkins, flag socks, or any of that.  I genuinely don't see it.  There's way more outrage over kneeling.

[ShimoHkun1]

It has nothing to do with Trump either.  Why do people keep saying this?  

 

With that out of the way, let's address what the protest is even about since you motherf***ers still don't know.

 

Kapernick started taking a knee last year while President Obama was still in office.  During this time, the national outrage was (for some) due to the killing of unarmed black men by police violence.  This was when Kapernick began to use his platform as a football player to draw attention to the movement.  He kneels because he, like the victims of police violence (mostly black but also Latino, Asian, Native, and white victims of police violence) are not free.  He kneels because there is an epidemic in this country where police officers (black, white, Asian, Latino officers) are out of control.  There are many outstanding officers who do their job's effectively and we are grateful for them.  But the ones who continuously kill unarmed men and women and children (mostly of color) are why this protest is happening.

 

You're welcome.

This was the original reason but it has changed, not every person protesting in this way is doing it for this commendable cause, as I was informed, a good majority who are doing it now are not doing so for this reason.

 

And as I said before:

I should be able to fly a Nazi or Confederate flag without any issue if the flag works as some say it does, unless there is some double standard we are working with.

[Dad]

This was the original reason but it has changed, not every person protesting in this way is doing it for this commendable cause, as I was informed, a good majority who are doing it now are not doing so for this reason.

 

This is a 50/50.  I both do and don't see people taking a knee for the injustices and brutality that has occurred.  Recently, especially after the President's remarks, more players have been taking a knee in solidarity with Kaepernick.  

 

 

And as I said before:

I should be able to fly a Nazi or Confederate flag without any issue if the flag works as some say it does, unless there is some double standard we are working with.

 

This is a big point.  The same people I see complaining about Kaep taking a knee are the same people flying literal flags of traitors.

[Aerion Brightflame]

It was after Freddie Gray took a spine injury from a police officer with a knee to his back.  It was also after Tamir Rice was gunned down in under two seconds of a police officer emerged from his car.  If you want to live in a country where it's mandatory to stand up for the flag, you can go to North Korea.

 

I literally said 'They have every right to do so'. They can burn the f***ing flag whilst screaming 'f*** THE US' for all I care so long as they own the damn flag. It sends a worrying message, because as V1alne has described the flag is meant to be a symbol of the nation, and thus someone doing that probably doesn't care much for his nation, but he has the right to do so.

 

Tamir Rice was in a park, pointing a bb gun (That looked an awful lot like a firearm) at people as they went out. As the officers arrived, he was walking towards the cars, and video footage gives an indication that he was reaching for something in his waste. Whilst the officer acted far to hastily, (And in fact it turned out the officer had previously been dismissed for emotional instability in another precinct, and was in fact fired again at a later day. To pretend he was just minding his buisness is disegenious.

 

Freddie Gray? You mean the man who fled the cops unprovoked, carrying a weapon, inan area of Baltimore with high crime, with 18 previous arrests? Yeah, the police mishandled transporting him, yeah he should probably be alive. But again, acting like he was an innocent guy who the police just decided to go 'yeah we gone go kill this f***er' is disengenious. Especially given in this case 3 of the officers involved, were black

 

It's not "cited examples".  It's part of the law.  We even have toilet paper, napkins, and curtains made out of representations of our flag.  You can literally wipe your ass with the American flag.  And no one will tell you anything about it.

 

Why is that not "offensive" or "disrespectful" but taking a knee is?

 

Yeah, I could read it was the law. I just disagree with needing a set of laws to deal specifically with what can and can't be done with a representation of the flag.

 

If you view the flag as a symbol of the nation, then wiping ones arse with it would be offensive or disrespectful. However, they should still legally be allowed to so, because making law around something that is 'offensive'.

 

 

When Trump started his campaign and said America wasn't great, people rallied behind him.  When Kapernick said it, people booed him.

 

What's the difference?

 

And yeah, we are one of the best countries in the world.  Even more so because we have the right to protest (peacefully as Kaepernick and many players are doing) to institute a change.  But if we don't protest in a manner that "doesn't offend" people's delicate senses of "patriotism" we should be quiet.  Nah.

Well if we ignore how half the nation wanted to call American Racist for going 'Let's make America Great again'.

 

Because when Trump said 'Let's make America Great again' he appealed to a group of individuals who were feeling isolated, and who felt there problems were underexposed. When Kapernick did he, he was just the latest in a line of black individuals going 'the system hates us', which means the people who believed it had made up there minds, and the people who didn't had made up there minds, so he wasn't drawing attention to anything new, just to himself.

 

Oh, and he did it at a f***ing sports game. People don't want to watch sports for political/social commentary. They watch it to relax. Shoving politics down someones throat when they are trying to just relax, and get away from all that s***. So when you then go and do that people get f***ing pissed. Christ, even Jim Brown, another Black superstar athelete finds him annoying.

 

And from what I've seen, Trump had a far better justification to claim to these people 'we'll make America great again' than the guys going 'we need to stop shooting black guys for no reason'.

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451466/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say

 

And in most of the cases that are made into major headlines, it's usually not 'cop goes and shoots him because he's Black'. So you know, for an issue or ideology that's arguably not supported by evidence, you have people going out into the street and shooting cops, just because they are cops. Really helping there. And it is shoved down peoples throats constantly.

 

In my view, if Caperneak actually want to save Black men, to save them from crime, and to save them from poverty, he shouldn't support this. He should be going out there, and telling these kids to make something of themselves, to build families, and futures. Not to blame cops for shooting people who are usually being criminals.

 

I say 'usually' because I will acknowledge that sometimes the cops just f*** up, and that there needs to be better training/high highering standards.

 

 

And again, because I have to reitorate: Kaperneak has every right to protest in this way.  My personal issue with Kapeniacks choice of action is that I think he's wrong, and thus him doing this is pointless. If he wants to help his community, he should continue to give them someone to aspire to, and actively encourage them to work to get something good from life.

[Dad]

Tamir Rice was in a park, pointing a bb gun (That looked an awful lot like a firearm) at people as they went out. As the officers arrived, he was walking towards the cars, and video footage gives an indication that he was reaching for something in his waste. Whilst the officer acted far to hastily, (And in fact it turned out the officer had previously been dismissed for emotional instability in another precinct, and was in fact fired again at a later day. To pretend he was just minding his buisness is disegenious.

 

Kids play with bb guns in the park all the time.  Because these weapons have become more realistic over time Tamir was shot.  Tamir was also shot because of the irresponsibility of an officer.  Not because Tamir was black.  

 

 

Freddie Gray? You mean the man who fled the cops unprovoked, carrying a weapon, inan area of Baltimore with high crime, with 18 previous arrests? Yeah, the police mishandled transporting him, yeah he should probably be alive. But again, acting like he was an innocent guy who the police just decided to go 'yeah we gone go kill this f***er' is disengenious. Especially given in this case 3 of the officers involved, were black

 

Still no responsibility.  You're missing the point entirely.  We all knew Freddie was guilty.  That doesn't mean he deserved to die.  And he wasn't "handled poorly".  They put a knee in his back while he was already restrained in the back of a van.  Why was he treated that way?  Zero responsibility.  It's not about the officer's skin color.  It's about no action being taken again and again.  These are bad cops who put people in danger.

 

A white woman, Justine Diamond, was shot after calling 9-1-1.  On her front lawn.  Poor training and poor police responsibility.  How funking hard is that for you to get?

 

 

Well if we ignore how half the nation wanted to call American Racist for going 'Let's make America Great again'.

 

Because when Trump said 'Let's make America Great again' he appealed to a group of individuals who were feeling isolated, and who felt there problems were underexposed.

 

Oh.  I see.  Trump appealed to individuals feeling isolated.  Right, right.  So then, what about--

 

 

When Kapernick did he, he was just the latest in a line of black individuals going 'the system hates us', which means the people who believed it had made up there minds, and the people who didn't had made up there minds, so he wasn't drawing attention to anything new, just to himself.

 

Right.  There it is.  The people Kaepernick was appealing to weren't appealed to by Trump, and are therefore irrelevant, making Kaepernick's cause foolish.  

 

My favorite part is the "latest in a line of black individuals" bit.  That says a lot.  Especially considering we and other people of color are far more isolated than the majority of the country which is white.  The system does hate us.  We're stifled, pushed out, and when we fight back, we're "annoying".  So does that mean we should change or the system should change?

 

 

Oh, and he did it at a f***ing sports game. People don't want to watch sports for political/social commentary. They watch it to relax. Shoving politics down someones throat when they are trying to just relax, and get away from all that s***. So when you then go and do that people get f***ing pissed. Christ, even Jim Brown, another Black superstar athelete finds him annoying.

 

Oh so because it was at a sports game, it's a problem.  So then, we can't march in public, we can't protest at public events, we can't protest in private at our churches or in our homes.  You think we give a funk if you feel uncomfortable because we take a knee during a sports game?  That's what bothers you?  You really got your priorities straight.  There are literal Nazi flags being waved up and down our streets.  Literal white supremacists and enemies of the U.S on our soil waving their flag, but you can't relax because someone took a knee at a sports game?  

 

Jesus Christ.

 

 

And in most of the cases that are made into major headlines, it's usually not 'cop goes and shoots him because he's Black'. So you know, for an issue or ideology that's arguably not supported by evidence, you have people going out into the street and shooting cops, just because they are cops. Really helping there. And it is shoved down peoples throats constantly.

 

Kinda like how we keep getting Nazi's shoved down our throats?  Those politics, protected by freedom of speech, are acceptable, but Kaepernick kneeling is not.

 

 

And again, because I have to reitorate: Kaperneak has every right to protest in this way.  My personal issue with Kapeniacks choice of action is that I think he's wrong, and thus him doing this is pointless. If he wants to help his community, he should continue to give them someone to aspire to, and actively encourage them to work to get something good from life.

 

Except Kaepernick gives to black charities, black functions, and goes to the hood regularly.  He assists black youth with finding jobs and staying out of trouble.  He preaches to them, and if you bother to do the research, you'll find pictures of him all over.

 

So he's doing just that.  You more hung up on "annoying kneeling at a football game" than Christ on a cross.  Stay in the UK and worry about Brexit.

[Sargun]

 

 

it's simply disgraceful that people would refuse to honor the anthem of the country

 

I find it unsettling that you're more upset that people are kneeling during a football game as opposed to people of color being shot in the street in cold blood.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Kids play with bb guns in the park all the time.  Because these weapons have become more realistic over time Tamir was shot.  Tamir was also shot because of the irresponsibility of an officer.  Not because Tamir was black. 

Do 12 year olds often play with them alone by pointing bb guns at passers by? A bb with the orange warning tag removed, making it indistinguishable by someone passing by for an actual firearm? You'd think the kid would know better by that age surely?

 

The officers had no way of knowing it was fake when they came in, (There were claims that 'it was 'probably' fake made on the dispatch tape but they had no way of knowing). And given Tamir can be seen on tape, making an action that looks a lot like reaching for a gun, do you not think that there were grounds for the shooting?

 

And again, the officer got fired. So in this case, if you want to claim 'no accountability', you have literal accountability here. The officer was found wanting as was fired.

 

Still no responsibility.  You're missing the point entirely.  We all knew Freddie was guilty.  That doesn't mean he deserved to die.  And he wasn't "handled poorly".  They put a knee in his back while he was already restrained in the back of a van.  Why was he treated that way?  Zero responsibility.  It's not about the officer's skin color.  It's about no action being taken again and again.  These are bad cops who put people in danger.

 

A white woman, Justine Diamond, was shot after calling 9-1-1.  On her front lawn.  Poor training and poor police responsibility.  How f***ing hard is that for you to get?

 

But action was taken... the officers were put on leave, and tried for manslaughter before a court of peers, and in one case found not guilty, one case ruled a mistrial, and in 4 cases dropped.

 

If due process being undertake is not enough for you, what is?

 

I did literally say later down (Though the name quotes you, because YCM):

 

 I say 'usually' because I will acknowledge that sometimes the cops just f*** up, and that there needs to be better training/high highering standards.

 

So you know, I clearly do get it. But I am used to seeing the narrative pushed that 'the cops did it because America is racist, and cops just wanna kill people' neither of which seem to be supported by evidence in most cases. Maybe you don't believe that, but hey the argument is fundamentally the same.

 

 

Oh.  I see.  Trump appealed to individuals feeling isolated.  Right, right.  So then, what about--

 

Right.  There it is.  The people Kaepernick was appealing to weren't appealed to by Trump, and are therefore irrelevant, making Kaepernick's cause foolish.  

 

My favorite part is the "latest in a line of black individuals" bit.  That says a lot.  Especially considering we and other people of color are far more isolated than the majority of the country which is white.  The system does hate us.  We're stifled, pushed out, and when we fight back, we're "annoying".  So does that mean we should change or the system should change?

 

No, Kapernicks cause isn't foolish because it's nothing something supported by Trump. I think Kapernicks cause is foolish because it's factually untrue.

 

And by 'the system that hates us', you mean the system that's putting you into college on lower SAT scores? The many hiring practices that push for black men and women above other ethnic groups? Or how about the rule of law still putting as second cla-- oh wait, you actually have equality under word of law, except in the cases where you have it better off due to affirmative action.

 

And in the examples where you aren't better off, in the amount of divorcee, in the amount of poverty, in the amount of crime (Though all three are explicitly linked), you are right you can lay some of the blame on the system, because you have been disproportionate beneficaries of welfare programs, and thus disproportionately affected by the inpact of welfare.

 

But I'd say on the whole, as a black man you are better off now, today than you have been in significant amounts of your history. Wanna tell me a time you guys had it clearly better? (Because I can only think of one myself).

 

 

Oh so because it was at a sports game, it's a problem.  So then, we can't march in public, we can't protest at public events, we can't protest in private at our churches or in our homes.  You think we give a f*** if you feel uncomfortable because we take a knee during a sports game?  That's what bothers you?  You really got your priorities straight.  There are literal Nazi flags being waved up and down our streets.  Literal white supremacists and enemies of the U.S on our soil waving their flag, but you can't relax because someone took a knee at a sports game?  

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Not me, I couldn't give two shits where you protest, you have the right to protest peacefully whenever, however and wherever you wish.  But I say it to help you understand why someone might be pissed when his sports game becomes a political protest, because on the whole, the leftist political message, BLM, LGBTQAI+, Russia Trump stuff, is all shoved down peoples throats at all opportunities. You see f***ing Playboy running articles on male-privelige now for instance. It surely can't be hard to see why some people would be f***ing annoyed by it all, and want sports to stay sports, and politics to start politics.

 

 

Except Kaepernick gives to black charities, black functions, and goes to the hood regularly.  He assists black youth with finding jobs and staying out of trouble.  He preaches to them, and if you bother to do the research, you'll find pictures of him all over.

 

So he's doing just that.  You more hung up on "annoying kneeling at a football game" than Christ on a cross.  Stay in the UK and worry about Brexit.

I did not know. Good for him, I am glad he is making that effort. I still think he's either ignorant or a hack, but I have more respect for him now than I did before because he's actually being productive towards an issue he feels strongly about. I simply disagree on the importance, or factual basis of the thing he is supporting (The stuff with cops. Helping black kids out of crime by helping them aspire to be something is something that everyone can get behind).

 

You really seem to be struggling with this today, so I'll state it again:

• I acknowledge the right of Colin Kapernick to protest wherever, and however he wishes, for whatever cause he wishes.
• I disagree with what he chooses to protest, because I think he is wrong. And because I think he is wrong, I find the continued and growing protest to be f***ing irritating. Especially since it has at times filtered into the UK, and there is almost no basis for such a movement to exist in the UK.
• Me finding it irritating does not mean I do not believe he should beable to do it. I do not want him to not be able to do it.
• I simply think, if he feels so strongly, he can do more productive things to help with this than what he has chosen to do.
• And again, because you seem to have your mind on it lately, I deride all forms of white supremacy. I do not have to be a white supremist to think that Black Lives Matter is based in nonsense, and is doing more harm than good

[Yui]

Swinging in before things get too heated, just to remind y'all to keep it cool and civil in here. I'm watching y'all up in here.

[Dad]

No, Kapernicks cause isn't foolish because it's nothing something supported by Trump. I think Kapernicks cause is foolish because it's factually untrue.

 

 

We make up a small majority of the population but are killed at the same rates as whites. That means we're killed more often.  See how that works?

 

 

 

Do 12 year olds often play with them alone by pointing bb guns at passers by? A bb with the orange warning tag removed, making it indistinguishable by someone passing by for an actual firearm? You'd think the kid would know better by that age surely?

 

The officers had no way of knowing it was fake when they came in, (There were claims that 'it was 'probably' fake made on the dispatch tape but they had no way of knowing). And given Tamir can be seen on tape, making an action that looks a lot like reaching for a gun, do you not think that there were grounds for the shooting?

 

 

I used to play cops and robbers as a kid.  We'd pretend to shoot at passing cars, shoot people on the sidewalks.  We were kids having fun.  And no matter who we pointed a toy gun at, the only shots that rang out were from plastic toys.

 

And as a kid, I often had to pull up my pants.  And if the gun was in Tamir's hands, what could he be reaching for?  

 

 

But action was taken... the officers were put on leave, and tried for manslaughter before a court of peers, and in one case found not guilty, one case ruled a mistrial, and in 4 cases dropped.

 

If due process being undertake is not enough for you, what is?

 

See, when the Police Department investigates itself and then its peers are put on a jury, you can always expect the outcome to favor the officer in question.  In none of the cases where they were charged were they ever found guilty.  Placing him on leave just means he's still getting paid to do nothing.  That is the problem.  This is what we're protesting.  And it's not just in cases against unarmed black men.  It's against citizens of this country.

 

 

 

And by 'the system that hates us', you mean the system that's putting you into college on lower SAT scores? The many hiring practices that push for black men and women above other ethnic groups? Or how about the rule of law still putting as second cla-- oh wait, you actually have equality under word of law, except in the cases where you have it better off due to affirmative action.

 

Except our SAT scores as people of color have consistently climbed.  We're making more breakthroughs than ever before.  And we're not the only ones benefiting from affirmative action (that's complex and I'll try not to go too deep into it).  And yet we're turned away from well-paying jobs where our white counterparts with the same amount of experience and education are accepted.  This is the system working against us.  I can vouch for it personally!

 

In my time in Wisconsin I wore a suit and tie to every interview.  I got my haircut, I made sure I was presentable and my decorum was proper.  Despite having equal or more experience than some of the people I was interviewed with (I had two open interviews it was weird), I was turned away.  There was a guy who literally showed up in jeans and a button up polo.  He had no experience and I had a year's worth.  He got the job.  He had no education outside of high school.  I did.  He got the job.  This is the problem.  And it happens in schools too.

 

 

So you know, I clearly do get it. But I am used to seeing the narrative pushed that 'the cops did it because America is racist, and cops just wanna kill people' neither of which seem to be supported by evidence in most cases. Maybe you don't believe that, but hey the argument is fundamentally the same.

 

 

Just stop watching Fox News.  Y'all have excellent news programming in the UK.  I'm so glad Fox lost their contract.

 

 

And in the examples where you aren't better off, in the amount of divorcee, in the amount of poverty, in the amount of crime (Though all three are explicitly linked), you are right you can lay some of the blame on the system, because you have been disproportionate beneficaries of welfare programs, and thus disproportionately affected by the inpact of welfare.

 

There are more white people on welfare than black people.  Your information is wrong.

 

 

 

But I'd say on the whole, as a black man you are better off now, today than you have been in significant amounts of your history. Wanna tell me a time you guys had it clearly better? (Because I can only think of one myself).

 

I can tell you right now it doesn't pay to be a black man.  Not in recent history.  Even as the President of the United States you were subject to having images of you placed on dolls and hanged in fake trees.  And over the course of mid last year to now, we are fighting the same injustices of institutional racism and blatant racism as we did in the funking sixties.  We are literally doing it all over again.  The only difference is we finally are able to have a voice.  Now, we're just being told we can't use it.

 

 

 

Not me, I couldn't give two shits where you protest, you have the right to protest peacefully whenever, however and wherever you wish.  But I say it to help you understand why someone might be pissed when his sports game becomes a political protest, because on the whole, the leftist political message, BLM, LGBTQAI+, Russia Trump stuff, is all shoved down peoples throats at all opportunities. You see f***ing Playboy running articles on male-privelige now for instance. It surely can't be hard to see why some people would be f***ing annoyed by it all, and want sports to stay sports, and politics to start politics.

 

 

I don't care if they're annoyed.  If they wanna stop being annoyed then they need to change the system.  It really is that simple.  Far as Trump and Russia goes, I'm staying out of that because it's still up in the air and kinda out there.  The rest of it isn't that difficult to overcome.  

 

 

 

• I simply think, if he feels so strongly, he can do more productive things to help with this than what he has chosen to do.

 

So besides protesting, donating to charity, working in the community, teaching children, helping them to find jobs, assisting with schooling donations and education funds, what else what you have him do?  What is more productive than that?