Resolution 06-2017-01 concerning the application and enforcement of rules in the General section

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

He chose to do so. It was his decision to make. Whether the decision was influenced by a report doesn't make it not his own.

 

And Yui has been a mod for like a week and a half. Of course his judgment isn't perfect. I'm not insulting anyone.

[Wahrheit]

Actually...

 

I also admitted you were probably getting a verbal warn whether he reported it or not. Just, yknow, putting that out there to clear up any potential misunderstandings.

You made that post either while or before I made mine.

 

Regardless, the larger point is that arbitrary enforcement of rules that does not promote the public interest, discourage malicious activity, or encourage "good" activity, is probably a bad idea.

 

There is of course an underlying catalyst to this thread being posted, but when I went to read the rules, I was flabbergasted at them in general. That they are outdated and poorly written, that they are not applied with more lenient discretion in cases lacking harm, and that they are not applied swiftly enough in cases where harm accumulates over time slowly rather than all at once - all of this is a detriment to the site.

 

We can, and should, do better. That's why I made this thread, and what I hope comes from the conversation.

 

I'm out for the night. I have to finish a paper. If I'd had written as many words on the paper as I have for this thread, I'd be done by now. ;)

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I think Yui handled it fine. IIRC there was an exchange beforehand as to whether a new cooking thread should be created or the old one should be bumped. I agree that bumping the old one makes more sense for continuity's sake, but Wahr didn't check with Yui and get his permission before bumping the old one so I can see why after Yui's recommendation it might feel undermining.    

 

I also think CowCow's reporting habits constitute feature abuse and he should stop. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I feel like if anyone should be asking cowcow not to be reporting things for fear of wasting the staff's time, it should be the staff. If the staff member chose to act on the report, it clearly was worth their time.

[Simping For Hina]

CowCow reporting this isn't a problem. Stop acting like it is. You're supposed to report if there is something that violates the rule. It is a no-thought action most of the time. Yui also did nothing wrong by acting, as he is just filling up a role and not making his own yet. There is also not a problem with changing the rules here, as it is relevant to the time.

 

I can say what was done wrong here, the two people that could clean up their acts can be Wahrheit and CowCow for different reasons. And neither are relevant to this thread.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Perhaps this is the wrong place to say it but given how this has developed. Um.

 

I should not have posted what I posted and I should have PMed it to Wahr himself while making sure to say beforehand that I wish to help given how previous suggestions have gone.

It was a mistake and that's that.

Right the editor is broken hopefully this doesn't double post but basically I am saying this because I mistakenly thought I had made it clear that I know it was a mistake but have been shown it was not evident.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I'll rescind what I said about CowCow's reporting habits as it is indeed recommended by the staff to report all perceived violations.

 

That said, it stands that certain members report disproportionately and others don't at all. Both behaviours stem from their own philosophies. Reports suggest that a given user can only be reasoned with using coercive measures. The implications of telling someone they've been warned because they were reported are not only that they can't express themselves as comfortably, but that someone recommended their self-expression was harmful for the site at large, couldn't talk to them about it, and had to go to that coercive force to do so on their behalf. That's pretty alienating and harmful to the site, in my opinion, and that is why I do not use the report system.

 

There are few situations in which someone expressing themselves is necessarily a problem for the site (most relate to when they are marginalizing other members of the site), I don't feel our current ruleset is reflective of these rare situations, and I believe as a result many people end up getting marginalized when they weren't marginalizing others. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

The rules really aren't that difficult to follow.

 

Reporting something isn't done because you disagree with them, or are trying to spite them, or fuckall like that.

 

It is because the post is in violation of the (honestly incredibly lax) rules, and reporting such posts so that moderators can decide how to handle the infraction is just the way the system works.

 

Just because someone presses the report button doesn't mean they can't socialize, or handle conflict, or are trying to oppress someone. Those are just silly generalizations.

 

If I can go as long as I have without being warned it can't be that difficult.

[Yui]

Basically what Parenthesis said. We don't get reports because somebody thinks your post has some bad self-expression or whatever. We get them because - as lax as the rules are here - they do still get broken, and that orange "1 Reports Active" at the top of our view of YCM is just the fastest way to get our attention called to the post. Now, are there implications behind mentioning a post was reported? Probably. I wouldn't know; I've only been on the receiving end of the reports for a little over a week. I'm still making some slip-ups here and there - particularly with the words I use publically - but honestly I think overall I've done a pretty good job with handling things. Solid B+ on my report card I bet. But this thread isn't here in regards to my performance as mod, nor is it here to talk about the report function. Let's focus on the rules with General if we can, okay?

 

So far, nobody seems opposed to me revising the rule about necrobumps, but I've only really heard like three or four people say they were in favor of it unless I just missed a giant wave of votes somewhere. Support or not, I'd like to get a solid head count to see where y'all stand in that regard.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

A thought I had about necrobumping is perhaps, if you go with it varying depending on thread, longer threads should be more strict about necrobumping.

 

I say this because of instances where several page long threads getting bumped and making it so, to properly contribute, people may have to read through several pages of posts.

It's not a huge thing but the thought occurred to me and it'd be nice to get opinions on that.

 

In some cases a new thread might work out better in order to attract more people to the thread. Because some may see a several page long thread and just not have the time, or some other issue preventing them from going through it, to read it. Granted there are those who would post without checking the rest as well but it might be something to consider.

[Wahrheit]

Basically what Parenthesis said. We don't get reports because somebody thinks your post has some bad self-expression or whatever. We get them because - as lax as the rules are here - they do still get broken, and that orange "1 Reports Active" at the top of our view of YCM is just the fastest way to get our attention called to the post. Now, are there implications behind mentioning a post was reported? Probably. I wouldn't know; I've only been on the receiving end of the reports for a little over a week. I'm still making some slip-ups here and there - particularly with the words I use publically - but honestly I think overall I've done a pretty good job with handling things. Solid B+ on my report card I bet. But this thread isn't here in regards to my performance as mod, nor is it here to talk about the report function. Let's focus on the rules with General if we can, okay?

 

So far, nobody seems opposed to me revising the rule about necrobumps, but I've only really heard like three or four people say they were in favor of it unless I just missed a giant wave of votes somewhere. Support or not, I'd like to get a solid head count to see where y'all stand in that regard.

The bolded is a weak argument. You don't need experience to be able to make inferences about how your actions might impact other people, you just need a good sense of empathy, generally.

[Delibirb]

This witch hunt looks quite unwarranted from my point if view. Following along after the fact, it looks like Yui is getting a bad rap for... Giving a verbal warning for something that warranted it? It wasn't even mean; it looked reluctant in fact. He behaved well enough, did what be was meant to as a moderator but wasn't distant - is even call it friendly. Looked like crossing "i"s and dotting "t"s to me.

[Wahrheit]

This witch hunt looks quite unwarranted from my point if view. Following along after the fact, it looks like Yui is getting a bad rap for... Giving a verbal warning for something that warranted it? It wasn't even mean; it looked reluctant in fact. He behaved well enough, did what be was meant to as a moderator but wasn't distant - is even call it friendly. Looked like crossing "i"s and dotting "t"s to me.

This topic is not about Yui.

[Delibirb]

This topic is not about Yui.

Could have fooled me.

[Wahrheit]

Could have fooled me.

Did I mention Yui in the OP?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Reporting something isn't done because you disagree with them, or are trying to spite them, or fuckall like that.

 

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that this has happened though.  

 

If I can go as long as I have without being warned it can't be that difficult.

 

This doesn't mean you haven't ever broken the rules, this means you haven't had gotten on the wrong side of particularly petty people who report everything of yours they possibly can. If I wanted to be one (which I don't and this is purely hypothetical), I could point out that even in your profile's recent five-post sample (which hardly constitutes every post you've ever made), there's still an "Oketra's is so funking good with Lich holy sheet", which is a 9-word post outside Misc. That sort of post is actually a good example of a post that shouldn't be reported because it wouldn't help the site if it were a vacant word or two longer, nor would it help the site if you got 4 warning points (the "default warning for spam"). I mean really, which attitude's better for the site? "Welp, it's 9 words live and let live might as well leave it alone" or "IT'S 9 WORDS GOTTEM TIME TO GET THE MODS ON HIS ASS FOR 4 WP". This is with the most recent ruleset where we have clear examples of what constitutes spam (albeit still with an "included but not limited to" disclaimer, meaning any post at all is still potential grounds for a spam warming for merely being "stupid/pointless/annoying" in the moderator's/reporter's opinion.) 

 

Certain users (Winter) have been targeted to the extent that such miniscule infractions including subjective reaches would damned well be reported by people who didn't like him (because of his political beliefs or personal opinions) if not outright moderated (by Roxas) to a much greater extent than your or my posts would be. Once something like that happens, a whole issue can be made of that user being a "chronic offender" (PARENTHESIS SHORTPOSTS OUTSIDE MISC ALL THE TIME, LET'S MAKE AN EMERGENCY MEETING TO ADDRESS ALL HIS RETROACTIVE INSTANCES OF SHORTPOSTING AND HOW MUCH OF A SPAMHOLE HE MAKES THIS SITE INTO. AFTER THREE HOURS OF DELIBERATION AND RANDOM POLLING ON DISCORD WE HAVE DECIDED TO PERMABAN HIM).

 

I'm just saying. The attitude that a post demands a report because it can be said to be rulebreaking is a terrible one that's terrible for the site and I think the site would be much better without people being vigilant report warriors. 

[Simping For Hina]

I'm just saying. The attitude that a post demands a report because it can be said to be rulebreaking is a terrible one that's terrible for the site and I think the site would be much better without people being vigilant report warriors. 

No one is saying that a post demands a report.

[Delibirb]

Did I mention Yui in the OP?

You needn't have.

 

Again, I'm just pointing out what I'm perceiving as an outsider. This whole show looks quite unnecessary to me. No one did anything wrong, certain people are just working themselves up over seemingly nothing. Perhaps a misunderstanding?

 

The Necrobump rules are fine as is. That said there's no reason they can't be improved upon, either. Since it apparently is up to Yui's discretion, and so far there've been no legitimate problems, I'll wait for Yui to give their discretion rather than sign a needlessly political document. Everything else here is back and forth bickering over a situation that was not, in fact, a situation, until this thread made it one.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

No one is saying that a post demands a report.

 

You dropped the "[because it can be said to be rulebreaking] so I'm not sure if you're taking this out of context or not, but...

 

This: https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/forum-5/announcement-68-use-the-report-button/

 

Also this:

It is because the post is in violation of the (honestly incredibly lax) rules, and reporting such posts so that moderators can decide how to handle the infraction is just the way the system works.

Particularly, "It is because the post is in violation of the (honestly incredibly lax) rules". Technical violations (such as 9-word posts and necrobumps of popular topics in dead sections) that don't cause problems still don't cause problems though, and reporting those does more harm than good in my opinion. 

 

Also I'd cite the type of reports that are happening suggestive of this attitude's existence but I think you're familiar with them and don't want to beat a dead horse any more than I already have.

[Wahrheit]

You needn't have.

 

Again, I'm just pointing out what I'm perceiving as an outsider. This whole show looks quite unnecessary to me. No one did anything wrong, certain people are just working themselves up over seemingly nothing. Perhaps a misunderstanding?

 

The Necrobump rules are fine as is. That said there's no reason they can't be improved upon, either. Since it apparently is up to Yui's discretion, and so far there've been no legitimate problems, I'll wait for Yui to give their discretion rather than sign a needlessly political document. Everything else here is back and forth bickering over a situation that was not, in fact, a situation, until this thread made it one.

So what you're saying is... your posts are irrelevant and you only came here to harass me?

[Yui]

Okay, so. This thread was posted with the intent of either proposing that the rule in General regarding necrobumps be revised, and/or that moderators evaluate reports more on their own stance on the matter instead of just "this was reported so imma do something about it", if not roughly something to that effect. Or at least, I hope that was the intent of this thread, since the context and content made it pretty clear-looking that this was the case. Meaning this thread is not here to discuss me, or my performance or anyone else's as a moderator. I've been watching and reading every post we've got here and I just have to say, quite a bit of the recent content we've got here isn't even relevant to either of the issues behind this thread unless I've just done an awful job at perceiving it all. We're currently mid-derail as I see it so I'd like to get us back on the tracks before we fall off it completely.

 

Necrobump rules in General: Do they need to be revised or not? Mod discretion with reports...this already exists; we don't act on every single report we get, and each mod tackles reported posts differently as far as I know. So that's the latter issue dealt with unless I've misinterpreted what that was. Which brings us back to the first thing. Please try not to get off-track again. If I suspect we won't get any further discussion on the topic behind this thread existing (meaning if we end up going off on something unrelated again), it will be locked. That is all from me until I see the need to contribute to this thread again. Have a nice evening everybody :)

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Necrobump rules in General: Do they need to be revised or not? Mod discretion with reports...this already exists; we don't act on every single report we get, and each mod tackles reported posts differently as far as I know. So that's the latter issue dealt with unless I've misinterpreted what that was. Which brings us back to the first thing. Please try not to get off-track again. If I suspect we won't get any further discussion on the topic behind this thread existing (meaning if we end up going off on something unrelated again), it will be locked. That is all from me until I see the need to contribute to this thread again. Have a nice evening everybody :)

About the mod discretion thing. I do not think that each mod tackling reported posts differently is a good thing.

Well.

At least not everything. There has to be some basis for everyone to go off of with some smaller things being up to the mods. I think there is so I am unsure if you're mistaken or not understanding or if there isn't actually.

[evilfusion]

Seriously?

 

This has got to be one of the most asinine proposals sparked by the flimsiest of non-issues I've seen in...probably years. And it only became increasing inane the more arguing that went on.

 

I can't really even tell what you "want". Seriously, you should write proposals in an easily decipherable manner. I don't care if it's technically proper political resolution material or whatever it stems from, but I can't figure out what's being proposed without REALLY making an effort when reading, and it's not because of the language or vocabulary used, but because of the atrocious formatting.

 

It reads like utter gibberish. Words thrown into a sentence haphazardly where the resulting statement has a meaning, but is left dangling, and the following statements don't properly CONNECT to a coherent train of thought.

 

Upon taking FAR more effort to decipher your proposal than it was actually worth, I've concluded you're suggesting that moderators have the right to use their discretion on a case-to-case basis on what rules to enforce, where, and upon whom, so that people don't get punished and discouraged from posting because of arbitrary rules such as what qualifies as "necrobumping"?

 

...you mean the system we already have? Okay.

 

And yeah, people report stuff. We're not FORCED to address something just because it was reported. It just draws our attention to the thread or individual, and we use discretion from there. If a mod claims "we're only hitting this because it got reported", they mean "We only gave it a closer look because someone pointed it out to us". Dozens of errant reports get deemed "non-issue" and are essentially ignored. Other incidents get verbal warns, others get greater crackdowns, depending on situations. Everything is pretty much done by discretion, and our tighter rules was so that we don't OVER-step when cracking down on perceived rule-breaking, while not becoming lazy and ignoring everything.

 

I literally cannot be bothered entertaining this subject any further, because your demeanor is obnoxious, your arguments uncompelling, and the proposal itself utterly asinine.

 

I'm locking this. The only mod who gives the slightest sheet about this topic is Yui, and that's because this whole thing was blatantly SPARKED by him doing his job and doing it well.

 

Haha...so I'm locking this because it got reported, and I don't see any value to continue observing something this dumb.