Winter's Ban

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

That is true, and your suggestions are wonderful.

 

I was not actually posing a solution. The more active moderation is something I believe was already being implemented. As for how this specific situation may alter our approach, that's something I haven't given enough thought to in order to give a more detailed or definitive answer. It was only through this thread and considering the circumstances that our approach proved itself to be less than ideal, and saying "Oh, we'll just not have that happen again" is too dismissive a reply for my liking.

 

If your plan or strategy hinges on "I just won't let that happen", it's not exactly an airtight strategy. For that reason, I hesitate to try to offer a more detailed response to that question at this time.

Evilfusion was pretty vague about whether or not any sort of change in procedure would occur. All I've come to hope for at this point is a "yes, something is actively being worked on"

[Dad]

 

That is true, and your suggestions are wonderful.

 

I was not actually posing a solution. The more active moderation is something I believe was already being implemented. As for how this specific situation may alter our approach, that's something I haven't given enough thought to in order to give a more detailed or definitive answer. It was only through this thread and considering the circumstances that our approach proved itself to be less than ideal, and saying "Oh, we'll just not have that happen again" is too dismissive a reply for my liking.

 

If your plan or strategy hinges on "I just won't let that happen", it's not exactly an airtight strategy. For that reason, I hesitate to try to offer a more detailed response to that question at this time.

 

 

That would have to be answered by evil.  He's overlooking and continuing to head the situation himself.  I'm sorry, but I can't answer that.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I'm not sure why there's been this sudden conclusion that "OMG WINTER WAS INSTANTLY PERMABANNED WE'RE ALL GONNA GET IT" but it's really inaccurate.  No one's out to get you.  Winter's case does not reflect every report or problem member's case.  That's not even remotely reasonable.  

This is not what I was saying at all and I am unsure who you're referring to honestly.

Still waiting for a response to my concerns. ^^; (since this seems directed elsewhere)

[evilfusion]

well yeah, you could be doing more interesting things, but you're a mod, and this entire thread is aimed at a decision made by the mods, and finalized by you, so you're doing exactly what needs to be done. and as such, as i've said, it's due a fair and proper response.

 

[spoiler=responding wall of text]

 

you are correct, he does have such a history of aggression, and to that end, i can't even argue that others started it, so much as they merely tuned into it, and now merely reflect it in myriad ways back, many on an equal level. be it TCG, general, debates, or wherever else he resides, many members have attuned to said aggression, and now think nothing of firing it back at him when they see even a hint of it. this in and of itself. that is a massive mark against him, and something i have not once denied, but i'll bring it back to this in a moment, as it ties into something down the road.

 

i would argue that because many of the individual examples (with clear exceptions) are negligible, the flaw is not solely on winter here, i agree, minor nags do build up, but negligible nags, should either remain negligible no matter how they build, or be made known to the target in question as soon as they occur, to prevent such blindsiding as what he's been hit with time and again, because any other ways lead to what we've seen, time and again. this is something that i believe should have been fixed long ago, because as it stands, this flawed ruling, i believe did indeed contribute to the situation becoming as tangled as it is. and that is fair to neither the mods, nor winter. not to winter, because the unstable method created such a pattern, and not to the mods, because it damages the actions of the group as a whole, which is something that i'll get to in a minute.

 

which brings us to the above once more, stupid, petty and laughable reports, should either never amount to anything, or be shown building so as to not blindside. you yourself have noted as much, yet the pattern has not changed, not even once. it's hard to assess step by step progress, when the system only tells you when you fail Y amount of times (Y having no defined value other than stupid, petty, and laughable X any one serious issue).

 

 

this paragraph holds a lot of topics to address, first, winter's approaching you to repeal said warnings, this was the correct method of action, and many have said as much when speaking to him, which is why you were the one approached more often than not. the second thing is the petty offenses, which ties together with the third, which is poor communication, and the fourth, which is warning points in general, so one at a time, the second has been addressed in the above paragraph, and will have it's own paragraph down the line, the third and fourth are one and the same, and a problem that literally everybody, be they for, against, or even uncaring about winters ban, has pointed out repeatedly, this cannot stand, and because of how terribly handled such instances often were due to poor communication and janky handling, should remove much of the purchase in any cases for maintaining winters ban.

 

 

and here we are at the end of one such discussion, one side believing that this is another great mistake, the other believing it justified, and the third regretting posting in this thread because they hate walls of text. and my aim here is to first, convince you that this ban was not justified, second, that it was not done properly, and third, that there is a better method that requires no major changes to your policy that you should not already have undergone years ago.

 

 

i'll be replying to these next few in one go, since they're all interconnected: i understand that many mods were indeed encouraged, and actively contacting him to reign in his actions, but near the beginning of this, we have the above sentiment, and throughout, up until nearly a few months back, he really did have a mod that was out to get him, and i'll sweep that into a pile for a moment, because it does frame a larger picture, that picture being, you gave him, the intense impression, that much, if not all of the mod team, really did have it in for him. he'd been slammed consistently, for actions that held no inherent value worth warning on their own, and with no prior warning, merely because his speech ruffles more feathers than the average poster. i believe we both can agree with this being insane, and a damn strong testament in and of itself that the mod team had poor handling of many situations involving winter, and that such poor handling, would naturally lead to winter's outlook as it was, that many a mod had it in for him. this is where winter's natural stubborn streak comes in though, while it would not be too much of a stretch to say the mods created this situation in it's entirety, winter's stubborn streak is definitely to blame for a large portion, getting hit as hard as he did out of what to him, seemed like a clear blue sky, on so many occasions, over what should have been negligible punishments, likely made him unnecessarily combative to punishments. something that would not only have happened to somebody with as large a stubborn streak as him, but because it was him, this is the result. he saw each new punishment as something to be challenged, because that is exactly what they were, for the longest time. winter would make effort to turn them back, because that is *EXACTLY* what he had had to do for nearly every punishment prior. it had become habit, because he had no reason to believe he shouldn't be doing it when it had been the case so often prior. sucks to say, and i don't doubt you've already admitted as much, but that particular strain of the problem, was a beast of your (and by your, i mean roxas and others of the mod team's) making. to address something earlier stated, by roxas, winter did indeed have an enemy on the mod team, and yourself and black appear to be two of the main ones fighting to keep his treatment fair (before dad, and i do believe i saw koko addressed a few times as being among the more rational in regards to him as well) in summary, not all of the above, is your (again, by your i mean mod team's) fault, but it was undoubtedly conditioned, and grown, with help from the mod team.

 

 

now, as for mods being afraid to take action against him, that's the second flaw in this design. your first was taking too drastic action, the second was being afraid to take any at all. if you back your action with solid logic, then regardless of his protests, nobody, not i, not polaris, not black, not you, not dad, not koko, nobody, would be able to counter said actions, and i for one would tell him as much each time, should it occur. the team's fear to take action, should not be placed solely on winter's shoulders, any more than winter's actions should be placed solely on the shoulders of the mods. i'll bring this back in a moment though.

 

yeah, we all see the "ban winter" protests that take place every now and again. and to that i really do say to just grow a thicker skin, or remember the existence of the ignore button. as for warnings having "chip damage", i believe there was a point where giga and winter both pushed for a similar system on discord, that would go from a week or so, and scale forward to a month at max, scaling back for time spent not in trouble. applicable to everybody, but ideal for winter, and advocated/backed by winter and those against winter. a system that would be far more fair to all parties involved. and fixing the first issue you yourself acknowledged would solve your "rapid-fire" dilemma, namely, the fact that he had been, being hit with massive warns, for what are indeed laughable offenses. fix the latter, and implement the former, and this never would have become an issue. and said scale would span the board, being applicable to all parties, so it's impossible to cry foul on any design basis.

 

 

Q: What changed since his past behavior and the present, where he now deserves a permanent ban?

 

A: Nothing.

 

I have word, from multiple sources on all sides, in this very thread, that this is not the case, he has been making an effort to improve how he does things, and i would like you to look back through whatever record of warnings and actions that you may have on him, to affirm as much. because from multiple sources, he's been less abrasive than usual for the past while, and has indeed learned to tone down upon request, and avoid subjects that would cause undisputed heat (like abortion). in the recent months, i've heard little if anything that would imply he were in such trouble, the most recent issues in memory not even involving him until they'd either already taken off, or excluding him entirely except as another voice in the crowd. talking has indeed held an effect, as i've seen it work in multiple areas, not guaranteed, but far more often than a year before, we've already established why said wrist slaps were argued, so that much can be thrown out partially, and the rest of the wrist slap arguing boils down to you giving him facts, and us telling him as much are facts. look in the debates thread to see as much. dad can likely attest that he does indeed tone down well before said wrist slaps are required nowadays, and his trust in the mods had indeed been on the rise, because the combination of warnings beforehand, and appropriate wristslaps directly upon crossing the line, or even touching it with said toe (a combination that was, by your own admission, until recently missing entirely from many of his interactions with mods, i might add), leading to less arguing over said warnings, and easier handling of any arguments that did arise. you were indeed making progress, because you had finally been leaving trails, instead of striking out of the blue, as you had done in the past. yet you neglect this in your overview. this may not have been your intent, but it was done all the same. and tat is one more reason we protest this result. his end has been changing consistently. it simply hasn't been on a grand enough scale to notice were you not looking back with all of the above in context. 

 

his own behavior, by the admission of even those opposed to him, has indeed been on the up and up recently. yeah, he had an agenda to push still, but that was to prevent himself from getting blindsided from the mods, or stormed with unreasonable reports by the members of the community which you yourself, and many others in this very thread, have again, attested to. things have been changing, you simply missed the steps leading to it, in the shadow of what it once was. in addition, much of the antagonizing these days, is not even by winter. which is a step up by all our standards. in fact, much of the most recent antagonizing, in the past few months, with the exception of the two absolute most recent have been more towards him than in reverse. so he instead has his vents elsewhere, and we all go about our lives. the way i see it, you forgot to reset the data after the flaws were noticed, and even more of an issue, you never actually fixed some of those flaws, with many of the fixed ones still being rather recent. leading your view to be skewed by facts that should by all means be thrown out in favor of a second look.

 

 

Now, the actual event itself.

 

this is where my actual opinions are relatively limited, much of what needs to be said has been said, and you seem to have already taken as much to heart, but the problem remains, the end result, was brought about by multiple flaws that paint not only a shady picture, but an incorrect one. i'm of the party that agrees that while it looks shady, it was likely not the intent, i've seen enough of you to know you aren't that kind of person, and i've heard enough to know you are more fair than many a prior, and even most of the current mods here.

 

now, to get to what you say you noticed in winter's speech in the mod thread, that was, by the admission of nearly everybody on this current thread, volumes below what you could have expected from past winter, in fact, i'd go so faras to argue zai and night took this to the next level, primarily zai, because the attitude he brought into the thread, was completely counter to what it was heading towards, everybody else had already brought things into perspective, and i have no doubt that the thread, while definitely heating up, would not have risen much further in tone from what winter was like on the first page. in fact, it was only at the last post of the second page that things were truly guaranteed to go to s***, and i legitimately believe, the whether it was their intent or not, zai's and night's conduct, were the core catalysts for things to go as s*** as they did by the end of the third page. night, stepped in with just as harsh language as winter ever uses, and zai, for whatever reason, stepped in from the start, with what amounted to "we are mods, and our say is final" in the exact thread where this was among the main complaints. hell, jessie was among those to point this out to him. in fact, everybody did, and instead of realizing this, and moving the conversation away, he essentially doubled down on it in his response to winter. the end result, while definitely s*** for all sides, and nowhere near a good look for winter, was leagues below what you know winter used to do in threads. and again, i point you to what continuously happened in the past, winter being struck out of nowhere by mods, with little to no rational explanation, in other words, this, was a step back in mod relations, by the very mod represented to be the PR mod and the one usually looked at as one of the head mods. it was just a s*** look, no other way to say it.

 

again, this was a case of mods making a FUBAR of a perfectly handled (until that point) situation. yeah, i get it, hindsight is 20/20, but that hindsight should show you, that even though winter had definitely toned himself down in deference to many a member, even going so far as to make (somewhat shaky) amends with roxas. admittedly, roxas took the first step, but winter, did indeed step up with him, and to the best of my knowledge, that ended that particular chapter entirely. back on topic though, this, in the eyes of anybody who's read as far, would look like it was simply the continuation of winter's distrust in the mod team, which in this case, would indeed appear warranted, even if not justified, simply because the immediate response of a mod who stepped in, was essentially "we're mods, we know what's best" when this brand of claim can be proven false immediately. it's undoubtedly shared blame on winters' end, but you can't claim this was just cause to burn him out, when the person suggesting said ban, was clearly on the same grounds to share blame with winter in this instance, and has indeed conducted himself poorly regarding such judgement in the past, as has been pointed out prior. 

 

want to know what would look good? fix the system, establish the rules, and don't repeatedly jank people when they have done nothing worth said punishments. this goes beyond winter here. we're talking actual responsibility for the systems flaws now. this is something that has been raised time and again, and has been hand-waived time and again. this ban, was not deserved, because it is indeed the fault of the mod team dragging their feet, and not just in the case of winter, but in the case of actually improving the system, to prevent such actions from happening to anybody.

 

the polling was poorly done, we both agree on that i believe, so i see no reason to address it further, but at the same time, not making it public was also a failure on the part of the mods, again, it was a continuation of the exact same flaws that led to the situation at hand. this was a debacle on all sides, and even those who don't want winter back agree on as much. and that is again, why the decision should not hold.

 

 

 

no dancing about it, you screwed this one up, and that's part of why crab made the response he did. this was ham-fisted action from origin to ending, and with the pieces in front of me, i can't understand why you'd think such a decision would be the correct one.

 

we've been over this, multiple people have attested to as much, winter, has indeed changed for the better. no, it hasn't been miraculous, but you can see it even still, and the removal of many of the initial factors (the first few paragraphs i addressed) was the starting point of said change. and all that it would have taken to finalize said shifts would be to have legitimate policies, which there was no short supply of, yet were still not implemented until this far down the road. so again,  from start to finish, this entire scenario, while indeed resting with a portion on winter, was not entirely winters fault.

 

this is my argument, and i leave it to you now, how strong of an argument do you believe it to be? because i have made nothing that even resembles a leap, i have ample sources i can provide upon request from this and other threads attesting to my points, and even you yourself have acknowledged, though still somehow overlooked, the other factors relating to this entire debacle. so i await your response.

 

 

 

I'm overdue for sleep right now, so the ending might feel a bit rushed, but i believe this is enough of an argument to warrant some form of leeway in the situation. i'm not saying he shouldn't be punished in some form or another, but a permaban, considering the circumstances from my own end, is in all aspects, too great of a punishment.

 

i'm going to f***ing sleep.

 

I feel you deserving of at least some praise over constructing a logical basis for your argument. It reassures me that you actually read my statement and points and were able to see that ever-so-crucial section where I said a logical approach is literally the only way to make headway, as opposed to trying to poke holes into the motives or character of the opposing side.

 

Regardless of the ultimate outcome, I greatly respect you for that.

 

I may have established this point poorly, but when I refer to many of the situations as being petty/stupid/laughable, particularly when concerning reports made against Winter, the problem there was that there WAS hostility, but individually, most cases did not warrant action. That does not make the behavior "okay", but it's not something that absolutely required intervention. I think I used the hypothetical example of someone calling another member an "idiot". That could get reported, and when looked at, usually the thought was "Well...it's rude, but it's not THAT bad".

 

But when you get a couple dozen reports for the same member, persistently using mild to moderate insults or just being an ass in general, it gets to the point where some punishment has to be done, and/or the member spoken to. I cannot say with absolute certainty whether the "dropping huge weights in one go" was present from the beginning of these situations, or if happened because smaller warns had little effect.

 

WEIRD. Looking at his Warn history, I can't really pinpoint any of the warns as being excessive. The closest thing was Aix and Sakura both giving him 5 warning points for different offenses on the same day, and Roxas dropping 2 on him a few days later (which pushed him past 10). From August of '16 until the Warn System presumably stopped working around October or so, he was getting warned about once a week, maybe 3 points average.

 

But all the documented offenses are very similar. Being needlessly antagonistic. Spamming. Inappropriate content. 

 

Our system is technically WORSE now because the Warning System isn't working properly (and hasn't been for some time, and probably needs YCMaker to fix something, fantastic), so warns have to be given manually via the AdminCP, with no set expiration date. That's not really relevant to this discussion, but it illustrates that part of the current issue with the system is based in the technology side, not just moderator error or procedure.

 

I'm under the impression we DID change the system, based on your description of the "ban with escalating length for repeated offenses". I thought we did recently change the rules and punishment details.

 

Now, it's important to quickly reiterate that Winter's hostile behavior and demeanor, while every instance is not always necessary to penalize, IS a recurring issue in itself. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned the chip damage/rapid-fire thing. It happens often enough that, if viewed as a SINGLE event, is not major and could get a pass now and then. But do it twenty times or with greater severity, and now how much do you warn for?

 

Then again, that could be your point. 

 

We didn't "reset" the weight of repeat offenses in the punishment system when we changed it, so all of his offenses count significantly more with less time passing. That is...a legitimately interesting point that I must admit did not occur to me before, and you are probably right. If we changed the system to emphasize harsher penalties for repeat offenses, it is completely unfair to start Winter at "each offense counts 10x" from Day 1.

 

Likewise with your analysis of the "damning" thread. I will review that. You may in fact have an EXTREMELY strong argument.

 

You also seem to be one of the only ones who realized the most legitimate argument to pose to me. Not the question of "Did Winter deserve to be banned?", but rather "Did Winter deserve to be banned permanently?"

 

I will review the situation again, and update you on the decision.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Evilfusion was pretty vague about whether or not any sort of change in procedure would occur. All I've come to hope for at this point is a "yes, something is actively being worked on"

??????????? come on people this is just silly

[evilfusion]

??????????? come on people this is just silly

 

Okay, SERIOUS response now.

 

I've been vague thus far because I've been unsure whether the most recent rules update covers some of the points you've presented. I've been perplexed by the frequent mention of "fixing the system", when I could have sworn that we DID update the system.

 

It puts me in an awkward position, because you're pushing for me to comment on something that I don't actually pay any attention to.

 

...that's right. I don't actually know the contents of the rules document. I rarely encounter a situation that requires me to know that information off-hand, and I rarely handle disciplinary matters directly, and only intervene when the discretion of another mod is called into question.

 

I do look over the document when new changes are made/proposed, but I don't retain or reference its content regularly.

 

So to answer whether the situation requires a procedural change, I have to first verify whether our rules/procedures already COVER those points sufficiently. Since the points are mostly common sense, I suspect they are covered to some degree, but may need to be expanded upon, using the experience as a reference.

 

In the event that it does need further update, I have every intention of just dropping the task on Dad/Sakura/Zai/etc. I'm exceedingly hands-off when it comes to drafting proposals, public documents, or statements.

 

*shrugs* Not exactly something I was dying to admit, hence the initial "PR spokesman double talk".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Wait are there more rules that aren't publicly known?

 

Also, I literally don't care who does it, as long as something happens.

[evilfusion]

Wait are there more rules that aren't publicly known?

 

Also, I literally don't care who does it, as long as something happens.

 

Not that I know of? Unless they're part of a revamp that hasn't been finalized, type of thing.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Then it's all good. It is all on stuff that literally wasn't part of the rules, because winter is the first time it happened.

 

EDIT: it very well may never happen again, but that doesn't mean the team shouldn't be prepared. No matter which side of the conflict one is on, I think most everyone can agree this could have been handled better. Of course, there are varying views on what would have been optimal, but even though there would be backlash in any course of action (including lack thereof) it is pretty clear that what ultimately happened caused a lot of unneeded chaos. The reasoning behind it is present, and understandable, but it does not make the action correct.

[vla1ne]

 

I may have established this point poorly, but when I refer to many of the situations as being petty/stupid/laughable, particularly when concerning reports made against Winter, the problem there was that there WAS hostility, but individually, most cases did not warrant action. That does not make the behavior "okay", but it's not something that absolutely required intervention. I think I used the hypothetical example of someone calling another member an "idiot". That could get reported, and when looked at, usually the thought was "Well...it's rude, but it's not THAT bad".

 

 

You also seem to be one of the only ones who realized the most legitimate argument to pose to me. Not the question of "Did Winter deserve to be banned?", but rather "Did Winter deserve to be banned permanently?"

 

I will review the situation again, and update you on the decision.

to address these two before i run out the door, my views on the claims of language will likely differ from yours, and the forum in general, in this regard, what most people see as rude, i often see as par for course (this applies equally to everybody, not just winter, i deal with mostly elderly people who give no fucks, and other people who are dicks just because they can be. being sworn at on a daily basis IRL, has somewhat numbed me to internet harshness)

 

that was basically my stance from the start, i get that something was in order to be done, but a perma, was entirely too far, and i also believe that may be been the main argument of most of the people arguing his ban, though they didn't say as much.

[Phantom Roxas]

I have been giving this some thought and I have come to a simple conclusion on my own feelings to this.

 

My only issue at the moment is concern about the system I had in mind when I made that thread about temp bans. I want to be sure that this "sudden increase" won't be common.

I just want to know that the idea behind my thread, scaling temporary bans, isn't going to be tossed away.

 

I think one issue with how this Winter thing was handled, honestly, is...it was so sudden. This sounds silly given that one of the issues brought up was how the mod team was slow to take actions before.

What I mean is that it's a shock to the system that it went straight to permanent ban. While I do think that he didn't show enough signs of improvement to gain at least my trust that he'd improve it might have been a BIT heavy handed to go straight for the throat.

 

When I first heard about the ban I thought it was a two month one. In my opinion a lengthy ban like that would have been much better. It would have given people less reason to be paranoid and scream "Unjust" and if Winter came back and didn't improve (and didn't just devolve like he has done before. I don't want to argue this point too much but I have seen cycles of him improving and then getting worse) then he'd just be banned and that's that.

 

Basically while I get why it was chosen to be done, I will admit that I can see at least why some would feel it was too harsh.

Personally speaking so that my own thoughts aren't misconstrued. I don't think he would have improved and I think that he would have gotten a permanent ban anyway. So I am not, personally, too fussed about this. I just can see where some might be.

 

And, again, would like to be reassured that the "Scaling length of bans" thing isn't tossed out the window.

 

This probably would have gone over much better. There might still be concerns, and I do think that, after the two months would expire, Winter would come back and probably warrant a permaban anyway. I think that the "sudden increase" was more that there were some circumstances particular to Winter. As in, while some of your suggestions probably could apply in a wider sense, this was the exception. However, when the "exception" to something is the first instance where you could have tested that something, it's going to make it harder to believe that some changes could ever be implemented. So it ends up turning out that Winter doesn't look like the exception, but rather, proof that the mod team won't follow through on changes.

 

Part of it might have also been that a scaling length of bans could have been applied retroactively? Though I'm just spitballing here. Like, instead of applying a scale to Winter now, and then waiting to see how his punishments could be judged on the scale, it's more like he's already pushed the limit of that scale, so he was treated as someone would be after the scale would be implemented.

 

It's been a very clear trend and tone for the last few pages or so.  I'm just clarifying because I can see this spiraling into bigger and unnecessary problems.  Trying to get ahead of the situation, as it were.

I think the concern is more that, while some people see Winter as a special case, others don't see him as much different than other people, so if Winter got the short end of the stick, what's to stop other people from being punished the same way Winter was?

[Dad]

I think the concern is more that, while some people see Winter as a special case, others don't see him as much different than other people, so if Winter got the short end of the stick, what's to stop other people from being punished the same way Winter was?

 

I've said this multiple times, but I'll say it again.  Each case is handled individually.  Case by case basis.  You're not grouped.  Everyone is subject to the same penalties, but only based on if their actions call for it.  I'm not gonna give someone two warning points for calling someone an jabroni, then turn around and give someone else a temp ban for the same offense.  That doesn't make sense.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I've said this multiple times, but I'll say it again.  Each case is handled individually.  Case by case basis.  You're not grouped.  Everyone is subject to the same penalties, but only based on if their actions call for it.  I'm not gonna give someone two warning points for calling someone an jabroni, then turn around and give someone else a temp ban for the same offense.  That doesn't make sense.

I think that is clear. I don't think people are concerned about getting banned, as has been clarified repeatedly. You say everyone is subject to the same penalties, so people really just want those penalties cleared up. You can say "this is by the book" but if people can't see said book the words don't mean much.

 

If a critical mass of minor offenses and bad attitude warrants a ban, how is that defined? How is it measured? I'm not expecting some extensive charter, especially this soon, so you don't need to stress over that.

 

At this point, now that the fires have mostly been put out, the mod team just needs to be careful about generalizing the issues. Saying "people are just panicking about being banned" writes off the actual productive discussion going on now, like a straw man. I know you, so I know that is by no means your intent, but it is the effect. By acting like people are caught up in hysteria, it just slows down the progress.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

I have refrained from talking about this issue for a multitude of reasons. For one, I consider myself a friend of Winter's and I felt I'd just be accused of bias. Secondly, I don't know exactly what me speaking about this issue would solve. However, I wish to tell you guys a story.

 

Back in 2010-2012 there was this user who was slightly well known. To be fair, he was known more in infamy then the other way around. He was an insecure, cocky, jabroni who always acted in an aggressive manner towards other people. He didn't do this out of malice per say, he did it because his insecurities began to cloud his judgement. He continuously believed that every single user was out to get him, and that those who said they were his friend were just lying. He would react to political debates with an incredibly forceful attitude and get really angry when his character was called into question. His infamy became so bad that he became this meme around the site as people predicted his eventual ban, or made jokes about how they wanted him banned. To many of the users on the site, he was a joke; a toxic cancer that needed to be rid of. He skirted bans through the skin of his teeth, but eventually that history of recklessness would catch up to him and he was perma-banned for posting porn.

 

However, there were things many mods didn't know.

 

For one, the users attitude wasn't helped by the fact that he was continuously berated and insulted on the site. Any topic he tended to participate in resulted in him being mocked in some way/shape/form. Another thing that many didn't know, or didn't wish to acknowledge, was that one popular user was making it his sole objective to make our protagonist as miserable as possible. He would always instigate arguments, badger the main character into corners which forced our protagonist to get defensive. This user would stalk the protagonist's status updates, continuously finding reasons to insult or mock him. Of course, this user was popular, and he got away with bloody murder as his loyal friends defended him to the death, and even helped in adding to the abuse our protagonist suffered.

 

It was ironic that he was regarded as one of the worst users this site ever had, because the same people who said that, were the ones responsible for turning our protagonist into the very villain they disliked. A sick cycle that our protagonist could never get out of.

 

That protagonist was me.

 

Does this story sound familiar? Because it should be. Winter has been fighting this exact same battle for a long time, possibly even longer than I did. When I first returned to this site, Winter wasn't really as prolific a political poster as he was now. Then I started posting controversial topics, because I saw that this site had a massive Freedom of Speech issue that needed to be addressed. Once that issue resolved I quietly faded back into lurking, but Winter believed that more could be, and should be done. That is where the two of us disagreed. I knew straight up what was happening, the Winter ban memes, the personal attacks against him, his rise in aggression in response, him being the lone wolf in debates at varying points. It was history replaying itself in some twisted carnival, he was a reminder of myself and the shite I got put through. It's why I stopped posting for a long time, because I knew how Winter's story was going to end, and I couldn't handle that knowledge.

 

The real culprit in this isn't the mods, who simply did their job to the best of their ability, nor is it entirely Winter's fault. This was the fault of users who continuously badgered Winter into corners, insulted him in status updates, and made him feel like general sheet in general.

 

Contrary to popular belief, treating a user like crap because he acts like crap isn't going to cause him to change, it's just going to turn him into the very thing these users state they hate. Because of this, every effort some of us made to help Winter was shot down. Every time we calmed him down, a user would rant off in a status update about Winter in some negative manner and the whole tower of Babel would come tumbling down. Every time we got two steps forward, some jabroni user forced us to take two steps back. The sad reality is that these users, who caused similar problems to Winter, didn't get punished as much because they attacked a common enemy. They got away with bloody murder.

 

I know who each of you users are. I know what you did, and I also know that, for every time you claimed Winter was toxic, you would be toxic to him, reinforcing his behavior and making things worse for everyone else. I won't name any of you, because your time will come on this site. Now that Winter is banned, you no longer have a curtain to mask what you do from the mods, you can no longer get away with the same things you did towards Winter. Have fun, because your time on this site is limited as well.

 

That is all I have to say on this matter. I will not respond to any responses to me in this topic.

[vla1ne]

I have refrained from talking about this issue for a multitude of reasons. For one, I consider myself a friend of Winter's and I felt I'd just be accused of bias. Secondly, I don't know exactly what me speaking about this issue would solve. However, I wish to tell you guys a story.

 

That is all I have to say on this matter. I will not respond to any responses to me in this topic.

i agree with much of what you said, but the last bit was somewhat unneeded, as it also provides a provocation. yeah, we can all name names, and yeah, there's more than a few axes worth grinding, but right now, it's not necessary to do so, nor would it be productive.

 

on another note, have you reviewed the situation fully yet evilfusion?

[evilfusion]

 

on another note, have you reviewed the situation fully yet evilfusion?

 

Yes, and I've spoken with the other mods in regards to revoking the permanent status of the ban, as well as discussing how long Winter should be banned, if not permanently.

 

I must emphasize that even if Winter's behavior did not necessarily warrant a permanent ban under the new system, that it has been consistent and problematic enough, over time, to justify a period of being banned. This is to firmly pass on the message that Winter's behavior must change DRASTICALLY in the future if he is to be allowed back.

 

My current understanding is that Winter is in agreement that some time away from the site, even for a couple of months, will be in everyone's best interests. Most of the other mods remain adamant that we should still be throwing the book at him, a sentiment I don't disagree with.

 

We have concluded on having the ban expire in 180 days (6 months), 8 of which have already been served.

 

His ban will expire on October 20th.

 

Barring some sudden development, this is not likely to be amended in the near future.

 

As such, this decision is not up for debate or discussion. If you have any major, pressing concerns, you may PM me directly, but otherwise this matter is considered closed, and this thread will be locked.

 

Do not make any further threads on the subject.