Winter's Ban

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

This got to the point where mods were reluctant to take ANY steps against him, because no matter how well-deserved the punishment was, it will always be turned back on them. And if the mods do nothing, Winter can use the lack of action to say that he didn't deserve the (next) punishment, because no one acted against him the week before for the same thing, so clearly it must be because the argument he got warned for is POLITICAL, and the mods just want to silence his political viewpoints because they're...from the opposing political viewpoint.

This was an issue I was not previously aware of, thanks for bringing it up and including it in your explanation.

 

Any news on what all this means for the future of YCM, in how punishments and problem members are handled? I assumed I would find something in there about changing standards, or at least establishing them, but didn't see much. I very well may have accidentally skipped it while reading.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

...and it took me over two and a half hours! I could be doing WAY more interesting things with that time.

 

In the few minutes it took to read and re-read your post I saw a whole lot of apologizing and attempts at damage control. You look sorry and I understand why you're sorry and this is a sorry business, but apologies don't mean anything without action. 

 

It'd take a matter of seconds to unban Winter. 

 

This got to the point where mods were reluctant to take ANY steps against him, because no matter how well-deserved the punishment was, it will always be turned back on them. And if the mods do nothing, Winter can use the lack of action to say that he didn't deserve the (next) punishment,

 

Winter wasn't the only one testing and playing the mod team. You guys were at a standstill because your rules suck and the ways you enforced them were riddled with inconsistencies (this being no exception). Don't be upset about it and lash out, fix your rules. You previously made a point that one of Winter's problems is he always cried foul and insinuated the mod team was out to get him. And yet, this was foul and the mod team was out to get him. 

 

That's all I have to say to you and your two and a half ill-spent hours. 

[vla1ne]

 

In the few minutes it took to read and re-read your post I saw a whole lot of apologizing and attempts at damage control. You look sorry and I understand why you're sorry and this is a sorry business, but apologies don't mean anything without action. 

 

It'd take a matter of seconds to unban Winter. 

 

 

Winter wasn't the only one testing and playing the mod team. You guys were at a standstill because your rules suck and the ways you enforced them were riddled with inconsistencies (this being no exception). Don't be upset about it and lash out, fix your rules. You previously made a point that one of Winter's problems is he always cried foul and insinuated the mod team was out to get him. And yet, this was foul and the mod team was out to get him. 

 

That's all I have to say to you and your two and a half ill-spent hours. 

goddamnit pol, give me time to reply in full before antagonizing the damn post. the very fact that he spent two hours means it deserves at least as much respect in return. 

 

yes, it's fine to disagree, and i disagree with it as well, but if he at least has it in him to respond with this much, instead of the standard "i'm a mod that's that" then he's clearly in this for valid arguments. and he has some legit points that do deserve addressing, considering he really has given more fair ground to winter than the rest of the team in it's entirety. a true response is worth sending back this time.

[Jack of Spades]

Why the venomous comments in response to evilfusion's statement? Like the reasons provided of why Winter got banned were justified. I liked the guy and even I honestly saw this coming (sooner or later) from the very first day I talked to him over at the Discord server because of how aggressive he was towards me when he first saw me, not to mention the stigma/memery that was associated with the name Winter even before meeting him. In any case at this point if people do not like YCM's rules or the community in its entirety, they can either suggest to the mods ways of improving one or the other (or both if you want the best of both worlds) or just leave. No one will (hopefully) judge another person in here for making up their minds and deciding to leave, because no one is forcing anyone to stay (unless you have besties in here, then in that case you are forced to stay until the end of times).

[evilfusion]

This was an issue I was not previously aware of, thanks for bringing it up and including it in your explanation.

 

Any news on what all this means for the future of YCM, in how punishments and problem members are handled? I assumed I would find something in there about changing standards, or at least establishing them, but didn't see much. I very well may have accidentally skipped it while reading.

 

No problem. I felt it a priority to establish some of the background context, as it was critical to understanding why we took the approaches we did, even if some aspects of those decisions turned out to cause backlash.

 

I did not actually touch upon that subject. I believe the overall goal moving forward is for the team as a whole to be more active when it comes to enforcing the rules and not allowing things to slide to the same extent. Winter was a somewhat unique situation, because of how much was allowed to slide in the past, then be cracked down on inconsistently, which fed into his "victim complex" and made it unnecessarily difficult to hand out any form of punishment without him starting drama over it.

 

 

 

In the few minutes it took to read and re-read your post I saw a whole lot of apologizing and attempts at damage control. You look sorry and I understand why you're sorry and this is a sorry business, but apologies don't mean anything without action. 

 

It'd take a matter of seconds to unban Winter. 

 

 

Winter wasn't the only one testing and playing the mod team. You guys were at a standstill because your rules suck and the ways you enforced them were riddled with inconsistencies (this being no exception). Don't be upset about it and lash out, fix your rules. You previously made a point that one of Winter's problems is he always cried foul and insinuated the mod team was out to get him. And yet, this was foul and the mod team was out to get him. 

 

That's all I have to say to you and your two and a half ill-spent hours. 

 

There is literally no apology being offered in my statement, nor is the tone apologetic.

 

You probably should have spent a few more minutes reading and digesting the statement before wildly reinterpreting the intent, and then mocking the time investment. I say in my opening statement that it's fine if disagreement persists, but I seek to acquire a mutual understanding of opposing viewpoints. If you make no effort to do similar, then it's just as well that this was "all you have to say".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

No problem. I felt it a priority to establish some of the background context, as it was critical to understanding why we took the approaches we did, even if some aspects of those decisions turned out to cause backlash.

 

I did not actually touch upon that subject. I believe the overall goal moving forward is for the team as a whole to be more active when it comes to enforcing the rules and not allowing things to slide to the same extent. Winter was a somewhat unique situation, because of how much was allowed to slide in the past, then be cracked down on inconsistently, which fed into his "victim complex" and made it unnecessarily difficult to hand out any form of punishment without him starting drama over it.

A few pages back I outlined some ideas (only linking to refresh memory, I know you read them since you repped it) on how stuff like this (punishing members for general toxicity, rather than any independently punishable offense) could work, so I was hoping that at least some part of it could be taken into mind, or at least a replacement.

 

You gave an explanation, and in so did acknowledge that mistakes were made in the execution of this, so it wasn't totally a write-off, but when big stuff like this happens, I feel it can be used to actually better the forum as a whole. Frankly, I don't think "we will try a little harder" is quite enough, at least to satisfy me (and some others who I know for a fact exist). Obviously, your job isn't to satisfy, but it absolutely is to perform to the best of your ability. Considering that, as has been stated by just about everyone free of delusion, winter has been a problem for years, it is more than a little bit concerning that after all that, your solution is so... vague, I suppose is the issue. It is easy to say that you won't make the same mistakes again, but it can very easily happen, without you even realizing it.

 

Unless something actually changes,  these problems will not be solved. They will only take new forms.

[evilfusion]

A few pages back I outlined some ideas (only linking to refresh memory, I know you read them since you repped it) on how stuff like this (punishing members for general toxicity, rather than any independently punishable offense) could work, so I was hoping that at least some part of it could be taken into mind, or at least a replacement.

 

You gave an explanation, and in so did acknowledge that mistakes were made in the execution of this, so it wasn't totally a write-off, but when big stuff like this happens, I feel it can be used to actually better the forum as a whole. Frankly, I don't think "we will try a little harder" is quite enough, at least to satisfy me (and some others who I know for a fact exist). Obviously, your job isn't to satisfy, but it absolutely is to perform to the best of your ability. Considering that, as has been stated by just about everyone free of delusion, winter has been a problem for years, it is more than a little bit concerning that after all that, your solution is so... vague, I suppose is the issue. It is easy to say that you won't make the same mistakes again, but it can very easily happen, without you even realizing it.

 

Unless something actually changes,  these problems will not be solved. They will only take new forms.

 

That is true, and your suggestions are wonderful.

 

I was not actually posing a solution. The more active moderation is something I believe was already being implemented. As for how this specific situation may alter our approach, that's something I haven't given enough thought to in order to give a more detailed or definitive answer. It was only through this thread and considering the circumstances that our approach proved itself to be less than ideal, and saying "Oh, we'll just not have that happen again" is too dismissive a reply for my liking.

 

If your plan or strategy hinges on "I just won't let that happen", it's not exactly an airtight strategy. For that reason, I hesitate to try to offer a more detailed response to that question at this time.

[vla1ne]

All right, I guess it's about time to issue some sort of final statement regarding this matter.

 

[spoiler=Massive Wall of Text]

 

 

 

 

...and it took me over two and a half hours! I could be doing WAY more interesting things with that time.

well yeah, you could be doing more interesting things, but you're a mod, and this entire thread is aimed at a decision made by the mods, and finalized by you, so you're doing exactly what needs to be done. and as such, as i've said, it's due a fair and proper response.

 

[spoiler=responding wall of text]

 

you are correct, he does have such a history of aggression, and to that end, i can't even argue that others started it, so much as they merely tuned into it, and now merely reflect it in myriad ways back, many on an equal level. be it TCG, general, debates, or wherever else he resides, many members have attuned to said aggression, and now think nothing of firing it back at him when they see even a hint of it. this in and of itself. that is a massive mark against him, and something i have not once denied, but i'll bring it back to this in a moment, as it ties into something down the road.

 

i would argue that because many of the individual examples (with clear exceptions) are negligible, the flaw is not solely on winter here, i agree, minor nags do build up, but negligible nags, should either remain negligible no matter how they build, or be made known to the target in question as soon as they occur, to prevent such blindsiding as what he's been hit with time and again, because any other ways lead to what we've seen, time and again. this is something that i believe should have been fixed long ago, because as it stands, this flawed ruling, i believe did indeed contribute to the situation becoming as tangled as it is. and that is fair to neither the mods, nor winter. not to winter, because the unstable method created such a pattern, and not to the mods, because it damages the actions of the group as a whole, which is something that i'll get to in a minute.

 

which brings us to the above once more, stupid, petty and laughable reports, should either never amount to anything, or be shown building so as to not blindside. you yourself have noted as much, yet the pattern has not changed, not even once. it's hard to assess step by step progress, when the system only tells you when you fail Y amount of times (Y having no defined value other than stupid, petty, and laughable X any one serious issue).

 

 

this paragraph holds a lot of topics to address, first, winter's approaching you to repeal said warnings, this was the correct method of action, and many have said as much when speaking to him, which is why you were the one approached more often than not. the second thing is the petty offenses, which ties together with the third, which is poor communication, and the fourth, which is warning points in general, so one at a time, the second has been addressed in the above paragraph, and will have it's own paragraph down the line, the third and fourth are one and the same, and a problem that literally everybody, be they for, against, or even uncaring about winters ban, has pointed out repeatedly, this cannot stand, and because of how terribly handled such instances often were due to poor communication and janky handling, should remove much of the purchase in any cases for maintaining winters ban.

 

 

and here we are at the end of one such discussion, one side believing that this is another great mistake, the other believing it justified, and the third regretting posting in this thread because they hate walls of text. and my aim here is to first, convince you that this ban was not justified, second, that it was not done properly, and third, that there is a better method that requires no major changes to your policy that you should not already have undergone years ago.

 

 

i'll be replying to these next few in one go, since they're all interconnected: i understand that many mods were indeed encouraged, and actively contacting him to reign in his actions, but near the beginning of this, we have the above sentiment, and throughout, up until nearly a few months back, he really did have a mod that was out to get him, and i'll sweep that into a pile for a moment, because it does frame a larger picture, that picture being, you gave him, the intense impression, that much, if not all of the mod team, really did have it in for him. he'd been slammed consistently, for actions that held no inherent value worth warning on their own, and with no prior warning, merely because his speech ruffles more feathers than the average poster. i believe we both can agree with this being insane, and a damn strong testament in and of itself that the mod team had poor handling of many situations involving winter, and that such poor handling, would naturally lead to winter's outlook as it was, that many a mod had it in for him. this is where winter's natural stubborn streak comes in though, while it would not be too much of a stretch to say the mods created this situation in it's entirety, winter's stubborn streak is definitely to blame for a large portion, getting hit as hard as he did out of what to him, seemed like a clear blue sky, on so many occasions, over what should have been negligible punishments, likely made him unnecessarily combative to punishments. something that would not only have happened to somebody with as large a stubborn streak as him, but because it was him, this is the result. he saw each new punishment as something to be challenged, because that is exactly what they were, for the longest time. winter would make effort to turn them back, because that is *EXACTLY* what he had had to do for nearly every punishment prior. it had become habit, because he had no reason to believe he shouldn't be doing it when it had been the case so often prior. sucks to say, and i don't doubt you've already admitted as much, but that particular strain of the problem, was a beast of your (and by your, i mean roxas and others of the mod team's) making. to address something earlier stated, by roxas, winter did indeed have an enemy on the mod team, and yourself and black appear to be two of the main ones fighting to keep his treatment fair (before dad, and i do believe i saw koko addressed a few times as being among the more rational in regards to him as well) in summary, not all of the above, is your (again, by your i mean mod team's) fault, but it was undoubtedly conditioned, and grown, with help from the mod team.

 

 

now, as for mods being afraid to take action against him, that's the second flaw in this design. your first was taking too drastic action, the second was being afraid to take any at all. if you back your action with solid logic, then regardless of his protests, nobody, not i, not polaris, not black, not you, not dad, not koko, nobody, would be able to counter said actions, and i for one would tell him as much each time, should it occur. the team's fear to take action, should not be placed solely on winter's shoulders, any more than winter's actions should be placed solely on the shoulders of the mods. i'll bring this back in a moment though.

 

yeah, we all see the "ban winter" protests that take place every now and again. and to that i really do say to just grow a thicker skin, or remember the existence of the ignore button. as for warnings having "chip damage", i believe there was a point where giga and winter both pushed for a similar system on discord, that would go from a week or so, and scale forward to a month at max, scaling back for time spent not in trouble. applicable to everybody, but ideal for winter, and advocated/backed by winter and those against winter. a system that would be far more fair to all parties involved. and fixing the first issue you yourself acknowledged would solve your "rapid-fire" dilemma, namely, the fact that he had been, being hit with massive warns, for what are indeed laughable offenses. fix the latter, and implement the former, and this never would have become an issue. and said scale would span the board, being applicable to all parties, so it's impossible to cry foul on any design basis.

 

 

Q: What changed since his past behavior and the present, where he now deserves a permanent ban?

 

A: Nothing.

 

I have word, from multiple sources on all sides, in this very thread, that this is not the case, he has been making an effort to improve how he does things, and i would like you to look back through whatever record of warnings and actions that you may have on him, to affirm as much. because from multiple sources, he's been less abrasive than usual for the past while, and has indeed learned to tone down upon request, and avoid subjects that would cause undisputed heat (like abortion). in the recent months, i've heard little if anything that would imply he were in such trouble, the most recent issues in memory not even involving him until they'd either already taken off, or excluding him entirely except as another voice in the crowd. talking has indeed held an effect, as i've seen it work in multiple areas, not guaranteed, but far more often than a year before, we've already established why said wrist slaps were argued, so that much can be thrown out partially, and the rest of the wrist slap arguing boils down to you giving him facts, and us telling him as much are facts. look in the debates thread to see as much. dad can likely attest that he does indeed tone down well before said wrist slaps are required nowadays, and his trust in the mods had indeed been on the rise, because the combination of warnings beforehand, and appropriate wristslaps directly upon crossing the line, or even touching it with said toe (a combination that was, by your own admission, until recently missing entirely from many of his interactions with mods, i might add), leading to less arguing over said warnings, and easier handling of any arguments that did arise. you were indeed making progress, because you had finally been leaving trails, instead of striking out of the blue, as you had done in the past. yet you neglect this in your overview. this may not have been your intent, but it was done all the same. and tat is one more reason we protest this result. his end has been changing consistently. it simply hasn't been on a grand enough scale to notice were you not looking back with all of the above in context. 

 

his own behavior, by the admission of even those opposed to him, has indeed been on the up and up recently. yeah, he had an agenda to push still, but that was to prevent himself from getting blindsided from the mods, or stormed with unreasonable reports by the members of the community which you yourself, and many others in this very thread, have again, attested to. things have been changing, you simply missed the steps leading to it, in the shadow of what it once was. in addition, much of the antagonizing these days, is not even by winter. which is a step up by all our standards. in fact, much of the most recent antagonizing, in the past few months, with the exception of the two absolute most recent have been more towards him than in reverse. so he instead has his vents elsewhere, and we all go about our lives. the way i see it, you forgot to reset the data after the flaws were noticed, and even more of an issue, you never actually fixed some of those flaws, with many of the fixed ones still being rather recent. leading your view to be skewed by facts that should by all means be thrown out in favor of a second look.

 

 

Now, the actual event itself.

 

this is where my actual opinions are relatively limited, much of what needs to be said has been said, and you seem to have already taken as much to heart, but the problem remains, the end result, was brought about by multiple flaws that paint not only a shady picture, but an incorrect one. i'm of the party that agrees that while it looks shady, it was likely not the intent, i've seen enough of you to know you aren't that kind of person, and i've heard enough to know you are more fair than many a prior, and even most of the current mods here.

 

now, to get to what you say you noticed in winter's speech in the mod thread, that was, by the admission of nearly everybody on this current thread, volumes below what you could have expected from past winter, in fact, i'd go so faras to argue zai and night took this to the next level, primarily zai, because the attitude he brought into the thread, was completely counter to what it was heading towards, everybody else had already brought things into perspective, and i have no doubt that the thread, while definitely heating up, would not have risen much further in tone from what winter was like on the first page. in fact, it was only at the last post of the second page that things were truly guaranteed to go to s***, and i legitimately believe, the whether it was their intent or not, zai's and night's conduct, were the core catalysts for things to go as s*** as they did by the end of the third page. night, stepped in with just as harsh language as winter ever uses, and zai, for whatever reason, stepped in from the start, with what amounted to "we are mods, and our say is final" in the exact thread where this was among the main complaints. hell, jessie was among those to point this out to him. in fact, everybody did, and instead of realizing this, and moving the conversation away, he essentially doubled down on it in his response to winter. the end result, while definitely s*** for all sides, and nowhere near a good look for winter, was leagues below what you know winter used to do in threads. and again, i point you to what continuously happened in the past, winter being struck out of nowhere by mods, with little to no rational explanation, in other words, this, was a step back in mod relations, by the very mod represented to be the PR mod and the one usually looked at as one of the head mods. it was just a s*** look, no other way to say it.

 

again, this was a case of mods making a FUBAR of a perfectly handled (until that point) situation. yeah, i get it, hindsight is 20/20, but that hindsight should show you, that even though winter had definitely toned himself down in deference to many a member, even going so far as to make (somewhat shaky) amends with roxas. admittedly, roxas took the first step, but winter, did indeed step up with him, and to the best of my knowledge, that ended that particular chapter entirely. back on topic though, this, in the eyes of anybody who's read as far, would look like it was simply the continuation of winter's distrust in the mod team, which in this case, would indeed appear warranted, even if not justified, simply because the immediate response of a mod who stepped in, was essentially "we're mods, we know what's best" when this brand of claim can be proven false immediately. it's undoubtedly shared blame on winters' end, but you can't claim this was just cause to burn him out, when the person suggesting said ban, was clearly on the same grounds to share blame with winter in this instance, and has indeed conducted himself poorly regarding such judgement in the past, as has been pointed out prior. 

 

want to know what would look good? fix the system, establish the rules, and don't repeatedly jank people when they have done nothing worth said punishments. this goes beyond winter here. we're talking actual responsibility for the systems flaws now. this is something that has been raised time and again, and has been hand-waived time and again. this ban, was not deserved, because it is indeed the fault of the mod team dragging their feet, and not just in the case of winter, but in the case of actually improving the system, to prevent such actions from happening to anybody.

 

the polling was poorly done, we both agree on that i believe, so i see no reason to address it further, but at the same time, not making it public was also a failure on the part of the mods, again, it was a continuation of the exact same flaws that led to the situation at hand. this was a debacle on all sides, and even those who don't want winter back agree on as much. and that is again, why the decision should not hold.

 

 

 

no dancing about it, you screwed this one up, and that's part of why crab made the response he did. this was ham-fisted action from origin to ending, and with the pieces in front of me, i can't understand why you'd think such a decision would be the correct one.

 

we've been over this, multiple people have attested to as much, winter, has indeed changed for the better. no, it hasn't been miraculous, but you can see it even still, and the removal of many of the initial factors (the first few paragraphs i addressed) was the starting point of said change. and all that it would have taken to finalize said shifts would be to have legitimate policies, which there was no short supply of, yet were still not implemented until this far down the road. so again,  from start to finish, this entire scenario, while indeed resting with a portion on winter, was not entirely winters fault.

 

this is my argument, and i leave it to you now, how strong of an argument do you believe it to be? because i have made nothing that even resembles a leap, i have ample sources i can provide upon request from this and other threads attesting to my points, and even you yourself have acknowledged, though still somehow overlooked, the other factors relating to this entire debacle. so i await your response.

 

 

 

I'm overdue for sleep right now, so the ending might feel a bit rushed, but i believe this is enough of an argument to warrant some form of leeway in the situation. i'm not saying he shouldn't be punished in some form or another, but a permaban, considering the circumstances from my own end, is in all aspects, too great of a punishment. so i now await your own response.

 

i'm going to f***ing sleep.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

But, just so we are clear, there will be one?

 

And I don't mean the "in a few days" kind that takes nearly a month and a thread to have happen. I'm known to be against those.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

We did mishandle the situation, some of that being blame solely upon myself

 

This eventually led to some of the moderators starting to institute penalties for these repeated offenses in an effort to rein his behavior in. Unfortunately, this was often done in the worst manner possible, resulting in legitimately skewed punishments. The sum of its parts may have warranted 5 warning points for abusive behavior, but the action that "triggered" the warn was usually stupidly petty and laughable.

 

The penalties were often ridiculous for the offense that triggered them, and sometimes just dropped on him like a sack of bricks. Dumber situations included two mods warning him in succession, not realizing that he was getting warned by the other.

 

People are latching onto the notion that Winter may have gotten banned because he participated in a thread accusing the mod team of abusing their power, in the interest of silencing opposing political viewpoints. More reasonable people are noting that this probably wasn't the INTENTION, but admit that it looks bad.

 

...you're right. It looks bad.

 

Retrospectively, not making a statement made the situation look sketchier, due to the already sketchy circumstances. That's on me.

 

Winter had a history of moderators dropping ridiculous punishments on him for innocuous offenses. 

 

And the whole shady business with polling members was done with what I think was the attempt to follow the community's desire for transparency, before it occurred to us that seeking feedback in such a manner was a TERRIBLE idea.

 

I interpreted such language as apologetic because I assumed at least that much good faith. If it isn't there, then so be it. Admission of wrongdoing with no intent to change is abuse and abuse is not to be enabled. 

 

evilfusion said himself that he had much better things he could be doing with his time. He's aware of all that was done wrong and his mind's made up to uphold it. There's no dialogue to be had here v1aine, and we don't owe a thing to evilfusion for permanently excluding a good member for no good reason. 

[vla1ne]

I interpreted such language as apologetic because I assumed at least that much good faith. If it isn't there, then so be it. Admission of wrongdoing with no intent to change is abuse and abuse is not to be enabled. 

 

evilfusion said himself that he had much better things he could be doing with his time. He's aware of all that was done wrong and his mind's made up to uphold it. There's no dialogue to be had here v1aine, and we don't owe a thing to evilfusion for permanently excluding a good member for no good reason. 

You pretty much derided him for what you saw as an apologetic tone, albeit you saw it as apology with no promise. That same view could be extended to winter on their own side, though i believe i made a case against it, which is why i made such a case in the first place. a punishment, is not out of the realm of imagination, my point, is to highlight exactly why this event should not have been any cause to ban him, and to demonstrate why the system, should be reset (and should have been reset long ago). 

 

 

yes, he did say he had better things he could be doing fixing the system for one, and unbanning winter for two imo, but i've already pointed out, in my very first line why he still deserves a proper response, because regardless of other things he could do (the usual mod handwaive for one), he did this thing. and you, especially you, knowing how the mods can be in relation to being pushed on subjects, should know why that already speaks volumes. i see no reason not to continue the discussion in a civil manner, while there is still a civil opponent.

[Aix]

I find it pretty comical Polaris acts like he's so very obviously right and then goes on to talk about how evilfusion won't budge.

 

 

 

You say Winter's changing, but just how long has this all taken? Just how much longer will he continue to be a problem?

 

I think an established procedure for future cases like what Giga posted a bit back is a good idea for such things to go faster and cleaner next time.

[Delibirb]

I find it pretty comical Polaris acts like he's so very obviously right and then goes on to talk about how evilfusion won't budge.

 

 

 

You say Winter's changing, but just how long has this all taken? Just how much longer will he continue to be a problem?

 

I think an established procedure for future cases like what Giga posted a bit back is a good idea for such things to go faster and cleaner next time.

Hopefully, such procedures won't be needed, of course, but I agree that having them will help to put people at ease, at least quelling the fear of a Stalin-like state where anyone could be gone on a dime. (Which obviously isn't what we have or will have, but it's what's being implied by some.)

[Catterjune]

Holy sheet. What happened to the good ol' days of YCM when permabanning members wasn't a huge bloody funking public affair?

 

You should probably get off YCM if you really think one single funking person deserves a 9 page topic about them.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Holy sheet. What happened to the good ol' days of YCM when permabanning members wasn't a huge bloody funking public affair?You should probably get off YCM if you really think one single funking person deserves a 9 page topic about them.

If you think this is 9 pages about winter you have been misled.

[vla1ne]

Holy s***. What happened to the good ol' days of YCM when permabanning members wasn't a huge bloody f***ing public affair?

 

You should probably get off YCM if you really think one single f***ing person deserves a 9 page topic about them.

only about 40-45% of these 9 pages are directly about winter, though the topic title does lend such thoughts. in either case, it's member created content, and i'd say it's already proven it's worth, considering everything covered so far.

 

I find it pretty comical Polaris acts like he's so very obviously right and then goes on to talk about how evilfusion won't budge.

 

 

 

You say Winter's changing, but just how long has this all taken? Just how much longer will he continue to be a problem?

 

I think an established procedure for future cases like what Giga posted a bit back is a good idea for such things to go faster and cleaner next time.

because he's not exactly wrong either. and no, that does not mean he's right. his view, as he saw things, was that evilfusion was putting forth, what has been done by mods repeatedly, and those same kinds of delays, under the guise of long winded wording, are what helped lead us to this particular scenario. both assisting in, and fostering, all of the other problems that have been brought up in this topic.

 

it's taken about as long as it has for the mod team to change their own methods. said methods helping contribute to the overall problems emerging from this site in the first place. you can note the decrease in actual winter-related incidents, the increase in actual discussion, and the overall improvement of both the forum, and it's members actions, stemming from specific events, many of which were events started and carried out with the intent to make the mod team work together better. it's not as drastic as most of you would like, but it's still clearly there.

And to prevent myself from sounding like a broken record, i'll stop here.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

overall improvement of both the forum, and it's members actions, stemming from specific events, many of which were events started and carried out with the intent to make the mod team work together better. it's not as drastic as most of you would like, but it's still clearly there

This is debatable, honestly.

 

On the surface, it may look like things are getting resolved, but when you really put the forum under the microscope, it's the same problems over and over, from people on both sides of the veil. I don't have a leak or any sheet like that, but I have a decent understanding of how things are resolved on the mod forum, and without something concrete (which is why I am pushing as hard as I am) any improvement is cosmetic. You can shout "go team!" and feel like these efforts get somewhere, but they very rarely do, and by the end of the day there ends up being so much animosity that any chance at significant improvement is DOA.

 

It's a pretty dreary viewpoint, and one I work to avoid, but unless people actually step up to the plate, (both staff and members,) the phrase "things are getting better" will just become a bigger and bigger lie. The conflict is over, but the sentiments are far from having been put to bed.

 

EDIT: note this isn't me saying mods are trying to stifle change, or any sheet like that, nor am I even trying to start sheet up again over the original intent of this thread

[Catterjune]

If you think this is 9 pages about winter you have been misled.

Yeah maybe. I'm not actually about to read 9 pages of kids REEEEEEE-ing about about mod abuse like they have any funking rights at all.

[vla1ne]

This is debatable, honestly.

 

On the surface, it may look like things are getting resolved, but when you really put the forum under the microscope, it's the same problems over and over, from people on both sides of the veil. I don't have a leak or any s*** like that, but I have a decent understanding of how things are resolved on the mod forum, and without something concrete (which is why I am pushing as hard as I am) any improvement is cosmetic. You can shout "go team!" and feel like these efforts get somewhere, but they very rarely do, and by the end of the day there ends up being so much animosity that any chance at significant improvement is DOA.

 

It's a pretty dreary viewpoint, and one I work to avoid, but unless people actually step up to the plate, (both staff and members,) the phrase "things are getting better" will just become a bigger and bigger lie. The conflict is over, but the sentiments are far from having been put to bed.

 

EDIT: note this isn't me saying mods are trying to stifle change, or any s*** like that, nor am I even trying to start s*** up again over the original intent of this thread

well, it's somewhat hard for me to say things have gotten worse, i'd say, that at least in a few cases, things have indeed gotten a bit better. i've said as much in a few prior posts, make no mistake, i know there's a lot more that can, and should be improved, on all sides, but it's not exactly fair to say things haven't gotten better to any degree, look at the small steps if you want to see improvement, i'll grant that it's not exactly significant, and i'd even agree were you to say that we have slipped backwards recently, and not just for the sake of my own argument either, but i do have to give credit where it's due, and i can see a few areas where mods are trying to improve.

 

 

Yeah maybe. I'm not actually about to read 9 pages of kids REEEEEEE-ing about about mod abuse like they have any f***ing rights at all.

your largest mistake was not reading before entering. and this post is exactly the kind of thing we were arguing against.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I have been giving this some thought and I have come to a simple conclusion on my own feelings to this.

 

My only issue at the moment is concern about the system I had in mind when I made that thread about temp bans. I want to be sure that this "sudden increase" won't be common.

I just want to know that the idea behind my thread, scaling temporary bans, isn't going to be tossed away.

 

I think one issue with how this Winter thing was handled, honestly, is...it was so sudden. This sounds silly given that one of the issues brought up was how the mod team was slow to take actions before.

What I mean is that it's a shock to the system that it went straight to permanent ban. While I do think that he didn't show enough signs of improvement to gain at least my trust that he'd improve it might have been a BIT heavy handed to go straight for the throat.

 

When I first heard about the ban I thought it was a two month one. In my opinion a lengthy ban like that would have been much better. It would have given people less reason to be paranoid and scream "Unjust" and if Winter came back and didn't improve (and didn't just devolve like he has done before. I don't want to argue this point too much but I have seen cycles of him improving and then getting worse) then he'd just be banned and that's that.

 

Basically while I get why it was chosen to be done, I will admit that I can see at least why some would feel it was too harsh.
Personally speaking so that my own thoughts aren't misconstrued. I don't think he would have improved and I think that he would have gotten a permanent ban anyway. So I am not, personally, too fussed about this. I just can see where some might be.

 

And, again, would like to be reassured that the "Scaling length of bans" thing isn't tossed out the window.

[Dad]

I'm not sure why there's been this sudden conclusion that "OMG WINTER WAS INSTANTLY PERMABANNED WE'RE ALL GONNA GET IT" but it's really inaccurate.  No one's out to get you.  Winter's case does not reflect every report or problem member's case.  That's not even remotely reasonable.  

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I'm not sure why there's been this sudden conclusion that "OMG WINTER WAS INSTANTLY PERMABANNED WE'RE ALL GONNA GET IT" but it's really inaccurate.  No one's out to get you.  Winter's case does not reflect every report or problem member's case.  That's not even remotely reasonable.

Has anyone said that unironically?

 

But, just so we are clear, there will be one?

 

And I don't mean the "in a few days" kind that takes nearly a month and a thread to have happen. I'm known to be against those.

..?

[Dad]

Has anyone said that unironically?

 

..?

 

It's been a very clear trend and tone for the last few pages or so.  I'm just clarifying because I can see this spiraling into bigger and unnecessary problems.  Trying to get ahead of the situation, as it were.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

And as for my other point, that literally only requires a one-word answer?

[Dad]

And as for my other point, that literally only requires a one-word answer?

 

I didn't know the context of the post.  One what?  One trial?  One repeat of the previous incident?  I thought evil had already effectively answered everything.  Even looking back, I'm still not sure what you're looking for.