Winter's Ban

[Blake]

 

Don't ask me who the "mole" is. I got these from a normal member.

 

Let's get something straight from the get-go.

 

I was never arguing for his reformation, though I wanted him to do so. I was arguing because the team would jump on him for minor details (like the one time he mocked Trump happening to have "pussy grabbing" in it) or just otherwise fail at prosecuting him. You let things pile up and slammed him all at once, and this here is no different. Screens prove such.

 

Ban Winter if you want. I can't funking stop you. I was defending a guy who no one else would, even when I couldn't stand to, because I felt it was the right thing to do when there was absolutely no showing of competent effort to remove him, just consistent kneejerk.

 

But I have a hard time believing that this is anything other than that.

 

This is on the tail end of a thread that became about power abuse, which was already handled poorly with a sudden lock. The more actions there are, the more it supports the people arguing the abuse. I don't want to say "hurr team ABOOS", but Lord knows, the team is making the case by itself, they don't have to do anything.

 

We have a PR Mod, but it does us absolutely no good, because there's still no communication.

 

This is genuinely the shadiest thing that's happened in the past few years, but it's going to be overlooked because of who it is, disregarding everything else about it.

 

Anything else would be rambling or not for this time and place.

 

Communicate. Don't make a decision like this when it looks like throwing a fit that you were insulted. I know you're better than that.

[Kazooie]

Speaking up here because this is the role I was given a chance to do, even though I couldn't do it at the time.

 

This is f***in' ridiculous, guys. Not even the ban, the complete and utter SILENCE you're giving concerning this. There was no public statement. No reasons are given, it's just a silent slam on the dude.

 

I don't like Winter. Him and I disagree on a lot of principle s***, but ya don't go and just whack someone like this. It reeks of an attempt to silence the opposition, which is exactly what you were JUST accused of doing.

 

There should have been an update in the f***ing Mod Transparency Thread the MOMENT you banned him. Not the next day. Not an hour later. Not even thirty minutes later. The MOMENT you banned him. You know this is something that is going to get attention, by not addressing it, you create an air of distrust. I sure as f*** don't know what to expect next.

 

I'm not even disagreeing with the ban. I just can't f***ing stand the silence. 

 

This is exactly what the PR moderation was about in the first place, but it seems like that doesn't mean s*** after all. If you wanna go full out dictatorship, honestly, just say it. I'm not saying this place needs to be open rainbows all the time, but you gotta at least make an effort.

[Resident Fascist]

All I'll say is pretty much good job proving my exact point. 

[evilfusion]

I disagree with all of your points. Both of you.

 

You may or may not recall that during the "era" when we would let things pile up and then slam him all at once, I was the one who stepped in and said "No, you can't do it like that. The misbehavior that GOT the warn was so minor that it's ridiculous to get 10 warning points for it, just because of the 12 offenses that went unpunished preceding it this week"

 

This was an era when I stood up for Winter more often than not, even offering to contact him directly when things were getting out of hand, and usually addressing his concerns. Winter has been a persistent subject among the members and moderation team for well over a year at this point. He has shown little to no improvement, PERIOD.

 

As to the "silence". That was on me. I didn't feel it appropriate to loudly announce "By the way forum-users, Winter is permabanned, now, feel free to complain or celebrate as you see fit."

 

Kind of felt like it'd be more tasteless than letting people just suddenly notice, and innocently wonder "Why is Winter banned?" if they wanted an explanation. Or riot, and protest.

 

You see...

 

I'm the one who banned Winter.

 

It's not power abuse, or lashing out because he insulted us or something like that. In fact, I specifically chose to handle it myself rather than let any of the other mods take the danger of being mislabeled. It doesn't matter to you guys if it was a team decision or not, you will target the mod who pulled the trigger.

 

And that was me.

 

And I operate by not drawing attention to things unnecessarily.

[Resident Fascist]

I don't see how Winter was a problem, personally.

[Maeriberii Haan]

does Discord have its rulebook yet anyway?

[Blake]

I disagree with all of your points. Both of you.

 

You may or may not recall that during the "era" when we would let things pile up and then slam him all at once, I was the one who stepped in and said "No, you can't do it like that. The misbehavior that GOT the warn was so minor that it's ridiculous to get 10 warning points for it, just because of the 12 offenses that went unpunished preceding it this week"

 

This was an era when I stood up for Winter more often than not, even offering to contact him directly when things were getting out of hand, and usually addressing his concerns. Winter has been a persistent subject among the members and moderation team for well over a year at this point. He has shown little to no improvement, PERIOD.

 

As to the "silence". That was on me. I didn't feel it appropriate to loudly announce "By the way forum-users, Winter is permabanned, now, feel free to complain or celebrate as you see fit."

 

Kind of felt like it'd be more tasteless than letting people just suddenly notice, and innocently wonder "Why is Winter banned?" if they wanted an explanation. Or riot, and protest.

 

You see...

 

I'm the one who banned Winter.

 

It's not power abuse, or lashing out because he insulted us or something like that. In fact, I specifically chose to handle it myself rather than let any of the other mods take the danger of being mislabeled. It doesn't matter to you guys if it was a team decision or not, you will target the mod who pulled the trigger.

 

And that was me.

 

And I operate by not drawing attention to things unnecessarily.

So you instead saw fit for Winter, who makes a big deal out of a ton of things, big or small, to ask people why he was banned instead? That does not add up, no matter what you say. This is a big deal, it's something that's been building for ages, and the sneakiest route possible was taken.

 

It would be open, when that's the entire point of the PR position and threads. Because this isn't acceptable, especially not with the timing.

 

You can say it's not Power Abuse. I can even believe you. But that does not change the appearance that it is such. It doesn't change that it validates Shard's concerns, because of how poorly timed and handled it was.

 

This isn't a matter of targetting. I don't care if you, Dad, or Night did it. It is absolutely horribly handled to keep it quiet. Or, maybe it's just not having team unison.

 

Sakura's the one that said it was due to his behavior over a year. Your past record of not letting thigns pile up doesn't matter if you end up doing it, anyway. That goes for anyone.

 

This is just disappointing in every regard.

[evilfusion]

So you instead saw fit for Winter, who makes a big deal out of a ton of things, big or small, to ask people why he was banned instead? That does not add up, no matter what you say. This is a big deal, it's something that's been building for ages, and the sneakiest route possible was taken.

 

It would be open, when that's the entire point of the PR position and threads. Because this isn't acceptable, especially not with the timing.

 

You can say it's not Power Abuse. I can even believe you. But that does not change the appearance that it is such. It doesn't change that it validates Shard's concerns, because of how poorly timed and handled it was.

 

This isn't a matter of targetting. I don't care if you, Dad, or Night did it. It is absolutely horribly handled to keep it quiet. Or, maybe it's just not having team unison.

 

Sakura's the one that said it was due to his behavior over a year. Your past record of not letting thigns pile up doesn't matter if you end up doing it, anyway. That goes for anyone.

 

This is just disappointing in every regard.

 

Sorry to disappoint.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I am curious btw, since when were punishments to individuals meant to be public to everyone?

[Blake]

I am curious btw, since when were punishments to individuals meant to be public to everyone?

In general, they're not.

 

When permabanning someone, especially at a sensitive time over a controversial member, definitely should be.

 

But worry not, we'll get a hand wave, no one will care because they're glad it's Winter banned, and we'll move on. Ignoring the actual problem.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

What do you expect for a reasoning anyway? Like, the reasons stated before seem to be it. It can be believed or not believed. I doubt, with how often Winter has talked about being a victim and such, that any time would be any better.

I get the idea behind what you're upset about....But I also feel it would have been an issue no matter how it was handled or when it was done.

[Blake]

What do you expect for a reasoning anyway? Like, the reasons stated before seem to be it. It can be believed or not believed. I doubt, with how often Winter has talked about being a victim and such, that any time would be any better.

I get the idea behind what you're upset about....But I also feel it would have been an issue no matter how it was handled or when it was done.

It could have been way better. Heels of a topic about that became power abuse discussion. That was locked due to not wanting to deal with it, instead of letting it run its course and stopping it if it got out of control.

 

Maybe it would have been made an issue. Probably, even. But I can say that, if nothing else, Bree and I would not have given a flying funk, and we're not alone in this. I don't like Winter's presence more than anyone else, but the way it was handled made more strife than was required.

[Flame Dragon]

Sakura's the one that said it was due to his behavior over a year. Your past record of not letting thigns pile up doesn't matter if you end up doing it, anyway. That goes for anyone.

 

This is just disappointing in every regard.

How is this us piling things up? We have put him in time out multiple times. We have given him countless warning, both through the warn system and directly. We have given him chance after chance and he has refused to learn. A person who walks next to a cliff is going to run out of lifelines to be thrown eventually and this is exactly what happened. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that we could never make this final step because it would always have been the result of a long drawn out process.

 

I am curious btw, since when were punishments to individuals meant to be public to everyone?

Generally no. For such a high profile case like Winters announcing that we was banned is a line we could have taken. Winter already explained why he didn't. That being said to suggest we were trying to hide that we did this is silly. Accounts are public information. He had replied to threads at least semi-recently. People were reacting to his ban in about 30 minutes. We knew people would see that he was gone and that reactions would started fast.

[Blake]

How is this us piling things up? We have put him in time out multiple times. We have given him countless warning, both through the warn system and directly. We have given him chance after chance and he has refused to learn. A person who walks next to a cliff is going to run out of lifelines to be thrown eventually and this is exactly what happened. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that we could never make this final step because it would always have been the result of a long drawn out process.

Generally no. For such a high profile case like Winters announcing that we was banned is a line we could have taken. Winter already explained why he didn't. That being said to suggest we were trying to hide that we did this is silly. Accounts are public information. He had replied to threads at least semi-recently. People were reacting to his ban in about 30 minutes. We knew people would see that he was gone and that reactions would started fast.

I was on the team for a lot of said past year. I know how infrequently he actually gets warned, as well as how many of those happened to be gatling shots. From what I've been told, he even got warned last week, and tried to appeal and keep this recent event in the thread it started in, barring my status where he was entirely cordial. I have a hard time believing this isn't kneejerk, in such a case.

 

But, this isn't about Winter himself, though. This is about the team's handling of it. Keep him banned, for all I care. But I don't want precedents like this to be what we deal with.

 

And this doesn't add up. If you knew this was going to happen, why would you not try any sort of damage control? Immediately after a thread where power abuse allegations were thrown out, validated, and now outright "citable"? Announcing it would have saved a lot of grief, for such a high profile case, instead we're here. My problem is the conduct in this manner, not the event itself.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

does Discord have its rulebook yet anyway?

 

There's a rough one up on Discord itself, yes. But there's some discussions about how to manage it with respect to this forum; keep it as a connection or just break apart. 

 

====

I'll keep this short about Winter:

 

As evilfusion mentioned, he's the one who took care of the overall ban for the reason I said in that screenshot: the compilation of Winter's behavior over the course of the year (well, a chunk of 2016) and up until now. Part of the reason was due to how he responded to members in Shard's thread, which I had nothing to do with it due to being offline at the time of its locking.

 

(For that matter, I don't even go in Debates that often except for less controversial topics)

 

You all are entitled to debating in the section in a respectful manner (w/out name calling or other forms of incendiary behavior), but if you go over the line into ad hominem attacks / disrespectful behavior against those who disagree with you, THEN Dad will get involved. 

===

[evilfusion]

How should it have been handled differently?

 

Is it the lack of a public announcement? I debated the merits of making one, but decided it was akin to waving a kill trophy around. I didn't foresee a more positive reaction out of "Hey guys, I banned Winter!" Even worded more eloquently sounded like it'd be a bit too smug.

 

It can't be considered a knee-jerk reaction when his behavior has been persistently problematic for over a year, with repeated efforts to get him to rein it in. It's also why I insisted on handling the matter of the ban myself. Just about ANY other mod you can point to and claim that it was knee-jerk, or bias, or power abuse.

 

I mean, you can point at me and say the same thing. But it's just not the same.

 

But okay. The only thing of merit I'm getting out of this thread now is "I dislike that you didn't tell us Winter was banned immediately after doing it".

 

I could unban him, ban him again immediately, and then announce it, if you'd like. It seems a lot more practical than me "keeping it in mind" for the future, because you just know how often I permaban people.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I agree with winter being banned. I have been clear about that for at least a year now. Basically since his ban was revoked. He has been a toxic thorn in the community's side. But it was never enough to get him banned.

 

What I feel the most important question is... would be "Why now?"

 

Between the last... ever, and today, what has changed? Because, as I see it, and correct me if you like, I would love to be wrong, the only difference is that this time he opposed the mod team one too many times. His behavior was a little heated, but compared to what we see from him and so many more members these days? It was nothing. The only clear provocation, the only thing that would have prompted evilfusion to pull the trigger, is winter agreeing (keep in mind, this wasn't even his thread, he was far from the only one involved) that the mod team is overstepping bounds. Now, I can only assume that this isn't exactly how it went down, because if it is, wouldn't this timing be petty at best? If such behavior is banworthy, why isn't shard banned? If speaking out against the mod team is a punishable offense, how do I have no warning points?

 

I am not saying this all is the case. I am saying that it sure as hell looks like it, at least to myself and Black. I am desperately hoping that there is an alternative explanation beyond "nobody likes him and we decided now is as good a time as any" but I am not seeing anything of the sort. Please, please prove me wrong.

 

I agree that winter should be banned. I have thought so for ages. Today was the exact wrong day to do it.

[Flame Dragon]

I was on the team for a lot of said past year. I know how infrequently he actually gets warned, as well as how many of those happened to be gatling shots. From what I've been told, he even got warned last week, and tried to appeal and keep this recent event in the thread it started in, barring my status where he was entirely cordial. I have a hard time believing this isn't kneejerk, in such a case.

 

But, this isn't about Winter himself, though. This is about the team's handling of it. Keep him banned, for all I care. But I don't want precedents like this to be what we deal with.

 

And this doesn't add up. If you knew this was going to happen, why would you not try any sort of damage control? Immediately after a thread where power abuse allegations were thrown out, validated, and now outright "citable"? Announcing it would have saved a lot of grief, for such a high profile case, instead we're here. My problem is the conduct in this manner, not the event itself.

Arguing if this is or isn't knee-jerk is hard. What you see as knee-jerk is too me us finally reaching the limit of timeout and verbal warns.

 

But you are correct, the silence is something I can understand people objecting to. How to go about responding to the ban was up to Evil, and he said why he did what he did already. You are free to disagree with the logic and say it was a bad judgement call. People would argue power abuse regardless of if we announced it the second he was banned or not. And again, you can't argue we were being sneaky when a ban isn't something you can hide.

[mitchermitcher]

Is it the lack of a public announcement? I debated the merits of making one, but decided it was akin to waving a kill trophy around.

I sure hope whatever merits you found for not announcing the ban is worth the seemingly lowering overall public trust in the moderation team.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I sure hope whatever merits you found for not announcing the ban is worth the seemingly lowering overall public trust in the moderation team.

I think this is too small a sample size to say "overall public"

[VCR_CAT]

I agree with winter being banned. I have been clear about that for at least a year now. Basically since his ban was revoked. He has been a toxic thorn in the community's side. But it was never enough to get him banned.

 

What I feel the most important question is... would be "Why now?"

 

Between the last... ever, and today, what has changed? Because, as I see it, and correct me if you like, I would love to be wrong, the only difference is that this time he opposed the mod team one too many times. His behavior was a little heated, but compared to what we see from him and so many more members these days? It was nothing. The only clear provocation, the only thing that would have prompted evilfusion to pull the trigger, is winter agreeing (keep in mind, this wasn't even his thread, he was far from the only one involved) that the mod team is overstepping bounds. Now, I can only assume that this isn't exactly how it went down, because if it is, wouldn't this timing be petty at best? If such behavior is banworthy, why isn't shard banned? If speaking out against the mod team is a punishable offense, how do I have no warning points?

 

I am not saying this all is the case. I am saying that it sure as hell looks like it, at least to myself and Black. I am desperately hoping that there is an alternative explanation beyond "nobody likes him and we decided now is as good a time as any" but I am not seeing anything of the sort. Please, please prove me wrong.

 

I agree that winter should be banned. I have thought so for ages. Today was the exact wrong day to do it.

 

I can't say for sure why it was different now, but I can say I'm fairly positive that it wasn't because it was directed towards the mods. I'd say it was more of a case to do with it being the straw that broke the camel's back than anything.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I can't say for sure why it was different now, but I can say I'm fairly positive that it wasn't because it was directed towards the mods. I'd say it was more of a case to do with it being the straw that broke the camel's back than anything.

As I said, I want that to be true, but it's a hell of a coincidence.

[VCR_CAT]

As I said, I want that to be true, but it's a hell of a coincidence.

 

If your concerns were true, then I would say Shard would be banned as well, or rather just the overall sample of affected people would be bigger than just Winter. I don't think it would look like as it is now; just bad timing more than anything.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

As I said, I want that to be true, but it's a hell of a coincidence.

What about the dozen of other times people, and specifically Winter, has expressed distaste towards the mods and opposed the mods in some way?

Your argument honestly has, for the first time I've see, barely any merit here.

If the concern is "He was banned after saying he opposed the mods and think they're overstepping" then it's a concern that is pretty...petty. Given, as said, there has been many other instances of this.

If that's the concern then that would always be the concern given that he made such comments extremely frequently.

Like...I really don't get it. There would always be something that someone could point to and go "Wait isn't it just because..."

In your own words.

No matter what is said to shard and winter, they can argue that any view opposing them does such to support an oppressive leftist agenda. And, technically, that argument can't be dispelled. As has been proven, no matter how much support or reasoning is given against them, they can just respond with "you are just saying this because far left agenda".

There is never a good time. There will always be something that could possibly be brought up that can't technically be argued against because of some vague "issue".

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

There is never a good time.

I mean, if he actually did something particularly wrong, that would be a good time. And, as you just affirmed, criticizing the mod team is not intrinsically wrong.

 

I would like an explanation about this from someone on staff, because it seems like being an jabroni is fine until you participate in a big thread about power abuse, and crying out against the mod team is fine unless you are winter.