THE SUBMISSION BOX [Moderator Transparency Discussion Thread]

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Why is activity being brought up as something a mod should have when the mod team has Zai, Smear, and Treb?

 

EDIT: And night. I literally forgot he was a mod.

[Yui]

Then can I say the member I think fits the bill?

I say go for it if they're cool with it.

 

The logic of impartiality doesn't really hold when General isn't Debates, so issues of political alignment shouldn't be coming into play.

Yui has been reportedly said to be/admitted that he is poor at managing conflict. Or given to running from it.

If activity in Misc/low conflict means you're a boon, why isn't Nyx the mod?

Yes I did say this. It's still true unfortunately, but the atmosphere in General seems like one where I either won't need to worry about this for a while, or one where I can gradually get used to it for the sake of "it's my job".

 

No one is saying Yui can't do it. It's a question of how this came to be, so that we can understand, because it is out of the blue (Seems to be a mistake, but).

Short of what I mentioned a couple pages back of it seeming to tl/dr into "Yui is just the safest option", I'm actually a little curious about this myself. Anyone got some input on this one by any chance?

 

You could cite Yui running RPs (if he runs them, idk, I don't pay attention), for example, because that shows management skills to a degree, based on how well he performed in that duty. You could cite minor achievements or actions in regards to improving the site as a whole. But to say achievements don't matter unless it's a Mod is...

I'd rather not compare running an RP to moderating a section, partly because my record for that is total garbage but also because they don't seem to require similar skillsets. When you run an RP, you need to work out the plot, balance enemy encounters, and get people to post so your RP doesn't die to inactivity. Moderating seems to be more a matter of enforcing the rules, spotting how you can change the section for the better, and dealing with troublemakers.

[Blake]

Yes I did say this. It's still true unfortunately, but the atmosphere in General seems like one where I either won't need to worry about this for a while, or one where I can gradually get used to it for the sake of "it's my job".

 

I'd rather not compare running an RP to moderating a section, partly because my record for that is total garbage but also because they don't seem to require similar skillsets. When you run an RP, you need to work out the plot, balance enemy encounters, and get people to post so your RP doesn't die to inactivity. Moderating seems to be more a matter of enforcing the rules, spotting how you can change the section for the better, and dealing with troublemakers.

But that... defeats one of the points presented. Anyone could do that, theoretically. I'm not saying you can't do it, but I want to know why they think you're going to be able to do so.

 

I was using RPs as an example of managing events of some sort. Surely, there are those who won't fit the bill and do well, or vice-versa, as a mod. However... Looking at moderation as simply policing is something that has been debated multiple times, and that I've very much been against. I'm certainly not alone in this line of thought, either. 

 

"Spotting how you can change the section for the better" is part of this, sure, but leadership is important to bringing about changes, even if that leadership manifests in saying what you feel could/should be changed, like a number of members do. Moderation just gives you the ability to implement such yourself, barring other mods being opposed.

 

Maybe General doesn't need that, but if General doesn't need a leader to fix it up... Why does it need a leader, again? A specific one. A misc mod was turned down in the past, Clubs is dead, Debates died with Winter (shock), so why do we need a "General Mod" instead of the team covering it, especially given that it's... GENERAL. This is one of my bigger questions, honestly.

[Kazooie]

 

Did we really forget to announce that Dad was getting a replacement?

 

...oops. I feel like we might have talked about doing that. I think we should have.

 

 

[spoiler=3 More of a personal rant that may or may not be pertinent to the discussion]More of an opinion thing, so don't take it in the context of Yui's promotion specifically or as an opinion of the mod team. This is just a nitpick of my own as a user, not a staff member.

 

Honestly, I think its kinda shitty that the mod team can't really make any important decisions without members coming out of the woodwork and expressing "concern for the site's health" (the quotes are not there for sarcasm. I'm just quoting the proverbial member base as a whole). Don't get me wrong, i'm glad that people are telling the staff what they think, but its always before any decision the team makes has an actual chance to affect the community, negatively or positively. After the dust settles, its rare to see anyone bring up actual legitimate converns about what the staff does, which tells me that users are either not invested enough to keep an eye on things after the fact (or that they're complacent in general), the vast majority of the decisions the staff makes are sound, or that the people who expressed those opinions maybe did so with some sort of ulterior motivation. I would much, much rather see people bringing up actual problems that are occuring on the site or with staff (like how slow I was at getting this very thread up, or the wait for RP's new rule draft, or Tormey's big ol' list of technical problems which needed to be fixed, to give recent examples), than seeing a discussion like this arise every time the staff does basically anything major. Having seen the decision-making process from the inside, and having been a part of it, its pretty apparant to me that every move made is a calculated one. The mods deliberate over evey choice they make. Maybe trust them a little and wait to call bullshit until bullshit actually appears?

 

 

No. Nono.

 

You're the PR Mod. You're the person who's going to have to deal with this things. Saying it's 'shitty' that the members have concerns over the decisions being made is idiotic and I'm not going to hold back on you at this point.

 

Yes, things get out of hand. That sucks. But that's part of life. You, as the PR Mod, will have to be able to address these concerns without trying to make people feel bad for having them in the first place. I knew this when I threw my hat into the ring and seeing you say this is reigniting that passion I felt when I advocated for this position to exist.

 

So I won't hold back, if that's your attitude towards the userbase and their concerns, you shouldn't be PR Mod. I was perfectly willing to give you a fair shake, cause I wasn't even sure if I was ready for that kind of commitment and I know it's a rough thing to adjust to. I still think you can do it, if you ditch that particular mindset. But you have had plenty of time and this is the last straw for me.

 

It is not SHITTY that people care about this site. And yes, some people take that too far. But you know what? I would rather have people who care about a site and occasionally get a bit too invested over dozens of people who don't give a flying funk.

 

The point isn't that the mod team doesn't think their decisions through, it's how insight isn't given into the decisions being made. You know what could have helped, Zai? If you had taken the time to let people know that a replacement WAS being looked into for Dad. If you had told us that the mod team was doing this, people could have asked the questions THEN. Instead of making it seem like a sheet show is happening now when it isn't! People are asking for clarity and that isn't too much to ask. People like to know things!

 

There was slightly over two weeks between Dad's announcement of resigning in the thread, and the announcement of Yui taking over. You could have, at almost any point in those two weeks, made a post in the thread, made the userbase aware of the deliberations, and made it clear that it wasn't a democratic thing compared to the PR Elections, but still encouraged discussion. Had people discuss if the need was there for a General Mod at the time. Find out if people had any suggestions for Dad's successor. But you can do that, get the input, and make it clear that the mods are making the final decision! It isn't defeat to let the members know what's going on!

 

The discourse isn't even because Yui is being promoted, general consensus, (ha, word play) is that he would be fine in another role! The whole question is why now when not before, and does General really need the oversight from a specific person? Those are fair questions and to call it shitty for people to have legitimate questions goes against the position.

 

As for the 'oops': This is what your position is, Zai. I know accidents happen and people forget things, but... It's kinda your job to announce these things so that discussions can happen. If no one else on the mod team makes the announcement, you should be doing it. You're meant to be the bridge between the userbase and the mod team. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Great post Birdie, but I feel I should mention that PR appointment wasn't really democratic. People have been saying PR election a lot in here and mods made it preeetty clear it was not such.

[Kazooie]

Great post Birdie, but I feel I should mention that PR appointment wasn't really democratic. People have been saying PR election a lot in here and mods made it preeetty clear it was not such.

 

Fair enough. It's probably the closest thing you'll get to a democratic appointment overall on a site like this, but that isn't wrong at all. I think people were a little harsh when the PR stuff happened, still, but the concerns weren't unfounded and you certainly aren't wrong about it not being democratic. I would've used semi-democracy, but that wasn't entirely accurate either.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I'd also like to point out that many of these posts were me and Dad discussing something only tangibly related and resolved.

 

At the moment there's like, 2 people talking about things they're concerned with and it's not going any farther than here...which is a submission box for discussion about mod stuff.

[Yui]

Great post Birdie, but I feel I should mention that PR appointment wasn't really democratic. People have been saying PR election a lot in here and mods made it preeetty clear it was not such.

To be perfectly blunt, if it wasn't democratic, Zai wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting the job. He basically doesn't exist outside of RP, so the only people that were able to vouch for him from within the mod team were Aix and Nai, who were stepping down at the time, and Dad, who I don't think Zai even crossed his mind as a possibility. I don't recall who else was nominated besides yourself and Birdie (who won and probably would have been the only PR mod if this wasn't democratic), but the support Zai got compared to candidates like Birdie or me was more or less not there. In fact, if I recall correctly, Zai only got the PR spot because I was discredited from the election and they just sorta scooped him up.

 

(long post)

It may be a bit late for it now, but I'd be fine with everyone - mod and member alike - sitting down and discussing the necessity or lack thereof behind a General mod, and who everyone thinks would be best-suited for the job if it's determined that we really need one with the state of the section. But, if we go that route, I'd prefer we not elect the new mod; it should be done entirely by the mod team, but taking into account what this member or that one has to say about different potential mods-to-be. The last election was a shitshow and a half, and we don't really need a repeat of that mess =w=;

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I'm not advocating for an actual election, because dear god no, but the shitshow wasn't the result of people having a say in the matter, rather it was quite the opposite.

[Dad]

I'm not advocating for an actual election, because dear god no, but the shitshow wasn't the result of people having a say in the matter, rather it was quite the opposite.

I disagree.  With me stepping down, and waves being rippled, there's no time like now to try and get the sheet right the second funking time.  Since I'm leaving, I encourage it.  We should create a new thread, take limited nominations, and follow it with a poll after.  Go with the result of the poll.

 

No time like the present to stick your leg in the water.  Not your toe.  Not your foot.  Get in that sheet.  funking do it.  There's no reason not to.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I disagree.  With me stepping down, and waves being rippled, there's no time like now to try and get the sheet right the second funking time.  Since I'm leaving, I encourage it.  We should create a new thread, take limited nominations, and follow it with a poll after.  Go with the result of the poll.

 

No time like the present to stick your leg in the water.  Not your toe.  Not your foot.  Get in that sheet.  funking do it.  There's no reason not to.

There are lots of reasons not to. This is a horrible idea.

 

And this is coming from the person who received about as much support as Birdie in the thread back in January. Public support does not a mod make.

[Dad]

There are lots of reasons not to. This is a horrible idea.

 

And this is coming from the person who received about as much support as Birdie in the thread back in January. Public support does not a mod make.

 

This hesitation won't get reasonable and publicly supported good candidates into the Mod team.  It takes management, not panic, to get it done.  Either now, or in the future, another public election will happen.  I advise not pussyfooting around with it and diving in.  Fix the system, and do it how ya'll wanted the first time.

 

That being said, whatchu worried bout?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I am pretty sure you are shitposting by now, but you are a mod, so the funk am I gonna do about it.

 

Have you ever heard of YMB? Making the winner a mod doesn't make it any better.

[Dad]

I am pretty sure you are shitposting by now, but you are a mod, so the funk am I gonna do about it.

 

Have you ever heard of YMB? Making the winner a mod doesn't make it any better.

 

No.  I'm 100% serious.  That's why I said it needs funking management.  The first time, it was taken out of the members hands after nominations were given.  Then a mod was chosen based on who was presented by the member base.  I'm trying to give you the election the way it should've been.  In your hands.  Managed by the staff, but decided, like an elected official, by the people.

 

Why the funk does that have to be a funking sheet post?  Cuz you disagree with it?  Me being a mod don't have sheet to do with it.  This is my opinion.  I ain't speaking for no funking body else.  I'm tryna encourage you to speak up.  But if it's just a shitpost, then whatever guy.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

There is a midway between promoting someone who received little to no public support, and having it just be a vote.

 

Direct votes bring with them a whole mess of issues, ranging from potential collusion to just unneeded drama.

 

I thought it was a shitpost because you said pussyfooting, not gonna lie

[Dad]

That's why I brought up management bruh.  How do you prevent collusion?  Reward people for coming forwards with bogus bullshit.  And let people voice--in the thread--why they feel X makes a better mod over Y.  And be specific with the sheet.  Not "oh they're really nice" cuz that don't mean sheet.  What do they offer to the section and now, and what can they bring as a moderator.  What flaws would you like to see touched on.  All that sheet.  And it should be multiple polls, real sheet.  Cuz one big poll is sloppy.

 

I think limiting it to four candidates and two polls would make things smooth as funk.

[BANZAI!!!!]

Things

 

I'll be a little more formal and more clear this time then, since i'm not in bed and not hung over.

 

Saying "oops" was me being cute. I straight up forgot to make any kind of formal announcement saying that we were promoting a replacement for dad, and furthermore I think I even forgot to tell the mod team that I had planned on doing so. Which put bluntly is a huge goof on my part since thats literally my job. I have no excuse for that, I just haven't been on YCM or thinking about it as much as I should be lately. So let me formally apologize for any confusion that came out of me failing to do that. Duck dun funked up, and it caused a lot of problems. Lo siento, sajnálom, I am sorry.

 

As for the rest of my post, I spoilered and prefaced it for a reason. Its me articulating (poorly I might add. Hangover's a jabroni) a gripe I've had since way before I became a moderator. Its not my overall attitude toward the userbase, and I even tried to explain that within by pointing out that I was really supportive of all of the recent instances of users bringing their concerns to me and/or the mod team when there was totally reason to.

 

In hindsight its probably not something I should have articulated this morning (i'm batting 1000 today it looks like). The conversation at hand isn't something that warrants it, and I made myself look like an jabroni by bringing it up at all. All I was really trying to say was that it'd be nice if the site could chill a little and wait for problems with what we do to actually become problems worth fixing. Let our actions speak for themselves in cases like this.

 

Annnnyyyyyyway, if you'll allow me to segue out of my amazing job performance for a moment (and for the rest of the conversation would be nice. I think it would better serve both what we're talking about as well as any problems people have with me if we went and talked about them after Yui's settled in and this has all been handled. Staying on topic and such) I think holding an actual direct election for a moderator is a terrible idea for a number of reasons that I will refrain from articulating both for the sake of this post's brevity and because they've possibly already been said. Having user input is great and all, but its the kind of decision that can really only be made fairly by staff.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Discussing how well you are doing doesn't really get in the way of Yui getting settled, it's pretty clear he had no issue with it.

 

I'm not saying you are trying to sweep this under the rug, I legitimately don't think that is your intent, but that is the effect. These things are going to need to be discussed sooner or later, and sooner is definitely better than later.

[Blake]

Major decisions and events should be discussed as they occur. They are, y'know, major. Why would major things be the thing you wait and see, instead of minor things that may or may not occur?

 

If there are concerns of any sort in a case like this, they should be brought up immediately. Were people to wait, it would become "why didn't you say something sooner?".

 

I feel like there should have been an announcement of a successor, as has been established, and there should have been some discourse started by the team as yto Yui and why he was chosen. The memberbase shouldn't have to ask for explanations for a major decision.

 

No one is even calling this a problem, and no one is trying to cause drama with this.

 

Suggesting that people, who are amicably asking for the explanation that was expected, should simply wait until they're proven right/wrong doesn't really do PR justice.

 

Not to mention that this happens with literally any major event. New presidential election? New game trailer? New music album? Major things are discussed as they happen, not once they've settled in for a while and taken a foothold.

 

The last line also bothers me, because it's more "you're not a mod, so what do you matter". The language used suggests that member input is take it or leave it, and that only the team matters in the end. The team is here to moderate the site. I disagree with an election, as well, but that last point is not well articulated.