"If God Exists...x shouldn't happen" argument

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Arins comments are amusing and got me thinking. If we extrapolate on his argument, could that be the greatest critique of theology? How could a god, one that is described to be our maker and father, be willing to tolerate Hitler and Daesh?

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? So now you have to publicly mock me and try to witch hunt me?

 

That's cute.

[~~~~]

It's called the problem of evil.

 

This topic needs to be moved to debates and then locked and burned before people like VCR cat find it and go psycho over the fact that an idea that has been hammered into their core identity through years of child abuse is so easily demolished by a few words.

[Captain Murphy ☆]

Maybe God didn't like Jews?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? So now you have to publicly mock me and try to witch hunt me?

 

That's cute.

Aww, did I hurt your feelings? So now you have to publicly mock me and try to witch hunt me? That's cute.

 

Seriously, no, I'm agnostic, I'm inclined to agree with you. God likely doesn't exist :)

[King K. Azo]

This is the way I see it. You don't have to agree with me.

 

Darkness is the absence of light. Where light is, there can not be darkness.

 

In the same way, evil is the absence of God.

 

Everyone keeps saying, "If God exists, then why doesn't he stop all bad things?" It's because he wants us to have free will. He wants us to willingly love him. He has angels that can blindly sing praises to him, he wants a love that is genuine.

 

God used to come down to the Earth and talk and walk with man. However, Adam and Eve, when they ate from the tree, basically said to God, "We don't want you here. We can be as great as you without you," and God respected their wishes. In listening to Satan and allowing him to deceive them, they allowed Satan to run free in the Earth, doing as he pleases.

 

God sent Jesus to die for our sins, and now he waits. He wants as many people as possible saved before he comes down and reestablishes his rule. Until then though, we have an absence of God. And where there is no God, there is evil.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

This is the way I see it. You don't have to agree with me.

 

Darkness is the absence of light. Where light is, there can not be darkness.

 

In the same way, evil is the absence of God.

 

Everyone keeps saying, "If God exists, then why doesn't he stop all bad things?" It's because he wants us to have free will. He wants us to willingly love him. He has angels that can blindly sing praises to him, he wants a love that is genuine.

 

God used to come down to the Earth and talk and walk with man. However, Adam and Eve, when they ate from the tree, basically said to God, "We don't want you here. We can be as great as you without you," and God respected their wishes. In listening to Satan and allowing him to deceive them, they allowed Satan to run free in the Earth, doing as he pleases.

 

God sent Jesus to die for our sins, and now he waits. He wants as many people as possible saved before he comes down and reestablishes his rule. Until then though, we have an absence of God. And where there is no God, there is evil.

So why would he allow the rise of fascism that is in effect the antithesis of free will? For someone that wants love that's genuine, it seems he's ok with people against free will telling the public that he does not exist

[King K. Azo]

So why would he allow the rise of fascism that is in effect the antithesis of free will? For someone that wants love that's genuine, it seems he's ok with people against free will telling the public that he does not exist

Again, people made fascism. It's a choice people made. That to is free will.

 

I'm not going to pretend to say I understand everything. I have a lot of questions, and I find myself questioning a lot of things.

[VCR_CAT]

So why would he allow the rise of fascism that is in effect the antithesis of free will? For someone that wants love that's genuine, it seems he's ok with people against free will telling the public that he does not exist

 

Find me the passage(s) in the Bible where God says nothing bad is going to happen on earth to anyone until the second coming as stated in the Book of Revelation. It's okay, I'll wait. In the meantime, I'll grab all those verses and passages where Jesus and others actually say "Hey yo, if you become a Christian your life is probably going to get harder, actually."

 

The argument of "But if God were real why does X evil exist in the world?" is just... kinda weak? It's really weak. It makes a lot, A LOT, of assumptions as to the character of God and what his will is towards the world, so as to say "But if God were real why isn't he exactly the way I say he is?" It's rooted in a lack of an understanding of the Christian faith and what we believe of God.

 

Now, if any of you are actually interested to see what we say about the existence of evil in a God-created world and the philosophical implications behind it, I can really dig into my old textbooks and books when I get home. I have a great one called "How Could a Good God let Bad Things Happen?" by Mark Tabb that has some very insightful things to say. There's also "A Grief Observed", the published journals written by CS Lewis when his wife died of the same cancer as his parents. It's not as direct as Tabb's book, but there are some great nuggets in there. Also it's a very difficult read, which I say because there's a lot of raw emotion into it.

 

I mean, a lot of this understanding is rooted in the class I took that was dedicated to the Book of Job (pronounced with a long "o") as taught by the most learned man in Canada over that book. It's a very fascinating study because it combines understanding of historical cultures and peoples with the study of ancient forms of literature and poetry, of which the Book of Job has a lot of.

 

As I've mentioned before, I would actually have my degree in biblical studies if not for a couple things:

- I transferred schools for one semester and credits didn't line up

- I got a D in a very easy class because I completely forgot to do the homework in the midst of a very busy month.

[~~~~]

~

But god could just make it easy and he doesn't, that makes him a jerk. The problem of evil stops being a thing once you admit that if there is an all-powerful god, it's not all-loving. Remember, an all-powerful god has the power to make things easy (or at least easier, for f***s sake) without coddling us and making us 'soft' or 'weak' or whatever other thing that god is supposedly trying to teach us not to be by putting us through this world.

 

Even if you accept that we need to go through hardships, do those hardships really need to be as bad as some of the hardships we face? What does a little baby that dies of cholera learn through its hardships? Nothing, because it's a baby. It just cries and hurts and there is no f***ing reason that god should just stand by and watch and claim to love and expect any f***ing shred of respect.

 

EDIT: 

 

Now, if any of you are actually interested to see what we say about the existence of evil in a God-created world and the philosophical implications behind it, I can really dig into my old textbooks and books when I get home. I have a great one called "How Could a Good God let Bad Things Happen?" by Mark Tabb that has some very insightful things to say. There's also "A Grief Observed", the published journals written by CS Lewis when his wife died of the same cancer as his parents. It's not as direct as Tabb's book, but there are some great nuggets in there. Also it's a very difficult read, which I say because there's a lot of raw emotion into it.

I'm not interested personally. Christianity has had 2000 years to come up with presumably some rather clever rationalisations and excuses for your god's appalling behaviour, and I don't want to hear any of it. There are no excuses.

[vla1ne]

It's called the problem of evil.

 

This topic needs to be moved to debates

i'm inclined to at least agree that this would be better off moved to debates. 

 

 

 

Find me the passage(s) in the Bible where God says nothing bad is going to happen on earth to anyone until the second coming as stated in the Book of Revelation. It's okay, I'll wait. In the meantime, I'll grab all those verses and passages where Jesus and others actually say "Hey yo, if you become a Christian your life is probably going to get harder, actually."

 

The argument of "But if God were real why does X evil exist in the world?" is just... kinda weak? It's really weak. It makes a lot, A LOT, of assumptions as to the character of God and what his will is towards the world, so as to say "But if God were real why isn't he exactly the way I say he is?" It's rooted in a lack of an understanding of the Christian faith and what we believe of God.

 

Now, if any of you are actually interested to see what we say about the existence of evil in a God-created world and the philosophical implications behind it, I can really dig into my old textbooks and books when I get home. I have a great one called "How Could a Good God let Bad Things Happen?" by Mark Tabb that has some very insightful things to say. There's also "A Grief Observed", the published journals written by CS Lewis when his wife died of the same cancer as his parents. It's not as direct as Tabb's book, but there are some great nuggets in there. Also it's a very difficult read, which I say because there's a lot of raw emotion into it.

 

I mean, a lot of this understanding is rooted in the class I took that was dedicated to the Book of Job (pronounced with a long "o") as taught by the most learned man in Canada over that book. It's a very fascinating study because it combines understanding of historical cultures and peoples with the study of ancient forms of literature and poetry, of which the Book of Job has a lot of.

 

As I've mentioned before, I would actually have my degree in biblical studies if not for a couple things:

- I transferred schools for one semester and credits didn't line up

- I got a D in a very easy class because I completely forgot to do the homework in the midst of a very busy month.

 there are none, but i can find you many a verse where your god is the source of said bad things. for example, genocide of clans under his command, omnicide under his command, not fixing simple problems that lead to the deaths of countless people, even though those problems were of his own design, and he had all the time and power in the world to fix them. as for lives getting harder, even jesus, does not get a free pass. for what reason do you need to believe in, or worship, an all powerful being to be a good person, or do good things? but that moves into a completely new argument, so to properly frame it in this context; if god exists, why would i need to be a christian? 

 

 

to answer that book preemptively, if i were a trillionaire, and removing the worst of the the earth, or even just humanities problems, cost a billion dollars, then consider me in with ten billion. and that is the same glass i look at your god with, except expanded vastly, since your chosen deity (and many others) are currently defined as semi-omnipotent/omniscient, if not  completely omniscient/omnipotent. your god, as defined, has the ability to save people, but chooses not to, when said rescue would take less effort than you exert picking up a rock. and to expand that hubris, your book deity decrees that he be worshiped above all else, or else you will be tormented forever. sound all loving to you?

 

job's book was barbaric by modern standards, and were any human to do what your god did to job you would want them burned alive before they could affect anybody else. what exactly gives god a free pass in it? it was basically pointless torture on a whim, because he was baited by the devils taunting.

[Sunshine Jesse]

The problem of evil isn't a particularly strong argume against the existence of god. What it is, however, is an excellent starting point for general skepticism as it immediately throws into doubt one of the central tenants of modern religion: the existence of an all-loving god. When that's called into question, most must immediately consolidate their beliefs in some way, which can get people thinking.

 

Critical thought is the enemy of all superstition, so for a lot of people, it's all downhill from there.

[Dad]

Stop making stupid debates and putting them in general. I'mma start warning you for this.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Stop making stupid debates and putting them in general. I'mma start warning you for this.

Mate, you guys moved the magnetic monopole topic to debates till I call y'all out on it. What's the line?

[vla1ne]

Mate, you guys moved the magnetic monopole topic to debates till I call y'all out on it. What's the line?

it's a god discussion. how often have those not become debates?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

it's a god discussion. how often have those not become debates?

Hoping it doesn't become contentious

 

Not all debates end up in debates afaik

[VCR_CAT]

But god could just make it easy and he doesn't, that makes him a jerk. The problem of evil stops being a thing once you admit that if there is an all-powerful god, it's not all-loving. Remember, an all-powerful god has the power to make things easy (or at least easier, for f***s sake) without coddling us and making us 'soft' or 'weak' or whatever other thing that god is supposedly trying to teach us not to be by putting us through this world.

 

Even if you accept that we need to go through hardships, do those hardships really need to be as bad as some of the hardships we face? What does a little baby that dies of cholera learn through its hardships? Nothing, because it's a baby. It just cries and hurts and there is no f***ing reason that god should just stand by and watch and claim to love and expect any f***ing shred of respect.

 

You'd really benefit from a reading of A Grief Observed, because it gives a lot of insights into this. It's a short book, less than a hundred pages, but it's a very interesting read. Mark Tabb's book is great, and I'll be digging back into those once I get home.

 

And don't think for a moment that this is any sort of new thinking. In fact, the Book of Psalms is roughly 70% lamentations. For a quick overview, the Book of Psalms is a collection of prayers, songs, and poetry written by various figures, many of which by King David. Some of these psalms can get very brutal, such as the writer wishing that the children of enemies have their heads dashed against rocks. These come from very real places of pain and suffering, and Psalms is unique because it's the book of man communicating to God instead of vice-versa.

 

And again, a lot of this goes down to the Book of Job, a book that's about a blameless, righteous man who, despite his riches and blessings, still cares deeply for the people around him. He's a guy who's so good that it's to the point that God would boast about him in Heaven, so what happens? Satan comes along, challenges these boasts and claims he would sooner curse god if he wasn't so blessed. So, he loses his wealth, his health, his home, and his family. He loses everything and is driven to the lowest of lows. His wife berates him and tells him to just curse God and just be done with it, his friends insist that it was somehow his fault and nobody's on his side.

 

I don't have access to my old notes from that class; that's not on this computer so I can't dig as deep as you would like, but God eventually responds to Job with a response that would be every bit as frustrating as you would imagine. To paraphrase, it's an almost needlessly long tangent asking Job "Who do you think you are, and who do you think I am?" Job is humbled and finally submits to this, and to iterate: my description of these events is not doing it justice, you'll get a better picture reading the story in at least two different translations (one more literal, the other more paraphrased).

 

The problem is, it's not so simple to think that because God could make our lives easier and that he doesn't he's a jerk. First off, our western civilization has an over-emphasis on happiness and comfort, to a point that many believers skew the Christian faith to be about finding happiness and comfort, when it's not really about that. One of the most obvious symptoms of this is considering the mood and theme of modern worship music compared to the Psalms. 3/4rd's of the Psalms are lamentations, while almost all modern worship music is about happiness and how great life is now that we have God. The thing is, there's so much more to this than simply "discomfort = bad, comfort = good". God's response to Job wasn't just shutting him up, it makes apparent how much more there is to what happens in our lives that goes beyond our understanding, and how loss and pain can shape us to be better people in the end.

 

Keep in mind, the overall narrative of the Bible is a story of redemption and reconciliation; it's about falling to a lowest of lows and being brought back, and this overarching theme can be found all over the place; you have the story of Ruth and Naomi, you have the story of Jonah who's tasked with giving one of the most hated peoples of their time a second chance, you have the story of David who goes from being the youngest and most overlooked his family to being the king of one of the most significant nations of the time. You have the story of Jesus who's condemned to be executed in one of the most painful and cruel methods man has ever devised despite his legal innocence.

 

The thing is, there's so much more to pain and suffering to our lives than we can immediately understand. We want the comfortable and easy life; I want the comfortable and easy life. Who doesn't? Some of us get it, and a lot of us don't, and a lot of us are in rough positions because of it. Keep in mind how much pain and suffering against people is human inflicted. There's a degree of freedom to humanity; a degree that's relinquished when life is made comfortable, easy, and perfect. There are injustices in the world, some human-created and some (yes) God-created (Vla1ne I'll get to you in a second, don't worry).

 

It's not as simple as God letting bad things happen and being a jerk for it, because there's so much going on. The simplest explanation is that pain and suffering is a subject of a world fallen to sin, while other explanations go deeper as to how pain and suffering can shape us, and how redemption from dark places can bring so much more good to the table. There's a big picture to our own lives and to the lives of humanity on a greater scale that's hard to see.

 

I mean, Lord knows I've gone through sheet, a lot of sheet that I know God had a hand in directly. I've screamed (actually screamed) and cursed at God using words I never use in a day-to-day life. I've also seen how those times in my life have shaped me and shaped those around me, and led to greater understandings and growth in my character.

 

 

I'm starting to ramble (starting to?), but one of the big points I'm getting to is how much is going on regarding the hardships of the world, and how difficult it is to really understand everything that's going on. If none of this really feels like a satisfactory response, you'll need to wait a little longer until I'm home and able to actually get at my books and notes (if I still have those kicking around).

 

[spoiler=Regarding Old Testament Funtimes]

Probably one of the first instances I've seen cited is "But God commanded the genocide to the Canaanites!" First off, it wasn't a full genocide; it was driving those people from the promised land and, in the case of the battles fought inside the promised land and those cities, the intention was to kill everyone, as to the battles fought outside where people were spared. A lot of information on the war against the Canaanites can be found in Deuteronomy.

 

There's also the part of the Canaans themselves. Which is to say, people that practiced human sacrifice as well as many other abominations, as seen in Leviticus http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Lev.%2018.24-30

 

Beyond what can be understood from what God has directly said about the Canaanites, there isn't much that can be directly said as to why it needed to happen, but it can be found implicitly why. See, Isreal failed to drive out all the Canaans, with this being one such instance: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua+9&version=NIRV

This doesn't bode well with the country as the Canaan culture would eventually spread through Israel and they begin to practice their practices (such as human sacrifice). It doesn't end too well for them because of this.

 

There's also a lot of meaning behind these wars and what's going on, because, again there's overarching narrative in the Bible and the image of Israel's failed war against the Canaans and what happens to them as a country becomes incredibly metaphorical towards the story of Man in the context of their faith. Again, I need my notes, but also this as a topic is one that's too big to really just discuss simply in here. It's a fascinating topic, absolutely, but it's something that's done justice with proper time and teaching as well.

 

 

[vla1ne]

if your god does not align with my own values, why would i worship it? and since i have no intention to worship it, what exactly happens? see the dilemma?

 

also, omnipotent, why would you need to walk to a promised land when you could just make one? and why would the canaanites need to move? it was their land to begin with, your god just decided he wanted his people to have it, and cared not one bit for the people whose lives he ruined giving it to them. 

[VCR_CAT]

if your god does not align with my own values, why would i worship it? and since i have no intention to worship it, what exactly happens? see the dilemma?

 

That's your choice. If you don't want to follow Christianity then that's your decision to make. Our faith isn't meant to be just a legalistic set of rules; it's meant to be more relational and personal than that. This is why the language in the Bible when it speaks of God and Israel uses language of family or of marriage; describing Israel as the bride as its image of choice. A relationship doesn't work if it's forced, and if you don't want to follow it that's fine.

 

As for what happens? You live your life, and then you die. As for what happens when you die, it's not very clear what the sort of "judgment process" is, although we're given an image of a convicted criminal in the midst of execution with no religious ties repenting to Jesus, whom replies "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." I believe that even in death, people will be given the chance to repent. I also believe that there are people that will still refuse to do that. As for those people, I'm sure you can connect the dots.

 

 

also, omnipotent, why would you need to walk to a promised land when you could just make one? and why would the canaanites need to move? it was their land to begin with, your god just decided he wanted his people to have it, and cared not one bit for the people whose lives he ruined giving it to them. 

 

From the rest of the passage I just quoted:

 

"35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"

 

It's almost poetic how those words of insult parallel with your criticism, and I'm not saying this to be insulting or anything. Of course it would be easier to do it the easy way, but he doesn't. Remember how the Bible is a narrative of redemption and reconciliation, and there was more to having Israel fight for their land than simply just being given it than one might think. Also, regarding "not caring", it was commanded that the Israels present every city they attacked with an opportunity for peace; there's also a lot of the picture on the Canaanite side that's not seen because the Bible only tells one side of the story.

 

As for it being the Canaanite's land, no. Not exactly. The ancestors of Israel lived there long before the Canaanites, but were hit with a seven year famine. They fled to Egypt, where Jacob's son, Joseph, had managed to become a very high ranking individual in the Egyptian government despite being betrayed by his brothers and sold to slavery. There Jacob's people are given a place to live in Egypt until years later when the new Pharaoh doesn't think these Hebrews living in their land deserve the good treatment they're getting (and I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Exodus and the Hebrew's return to Canaan).

 

Also, one may argue that God did make a promised land for them, which was Canaan. It needed to be that land for a few reasons. For one, in those ancient times, there was tremendous fear and taboo regarding deep waters. Throughout their literature oceans and seas are used as metaphors for chaos and evil, and nobody practiced sailing at that time. Two, the land of Canaan is a strip of fertile land surrounded by desert that essentially bridges Egypt and other more southern kingdoms to the northern kingdoms and beyond. Three, Egypt was one of the most wealthy and influential countries at the time, from which there's going to be a lot of traffic to and from. Canaan was in a position where anyone that wanted to go to Egypt essentially had to go through Canaan, and with Israel given a mission to spread their faith to the world there's really no better place for exposure to many different cultures and places than Canaan.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Isn't the idea that God existing would prevent all evil make assumptions about evil being objective? I would say you'd be hard pressed to find someone who cannot justify, in even a roundabout way, the things they do. Perspective is a magical thing like that; What seems immoral, and reprehensible from one perspective is valid and just from another. God being Omniscient technically means he should be able to see all such viewpoints. If you can see the justification behind all actions, all viewpoints and such and such, how can you so easily draw a line in the sand to define what is evil and what is not?
 

This is essentially a variation upon 'god works in mysterious ways', but I think (personally) it holds more validity; It is hard to question the actions of a supposed omnipotent and omnipresent being when it can see more perspectives on any and all issues that we ever good.

 

And at the very least it questions the assumptions made in the question; That that there is absolute good and absolute evil instead of shades of grey. Because absolute evil would be evil without any form of redeeming factor in it. Without any good. How can we assume that?

[Delibirb]

I certainly don't believe in a God that demands/deserves worship -- though I do believe in a superior entity -- and that is largely due to this this problem of evil.

 

Hitler and other evil people throughout history can be "justified" by religions believing in an omnibenevolent God by declaring them "tests" of the goodness of the rest of the world. But what about events or animals or plagues? Why are there insects who exist solely to burrow into the eyes of children, causing them to be blind? What does that test? Children's ability to close their eyes? Why are there diseases that kill people for creating children who could potentially worship this God if only it was less distant and cruel? Why is Earth not much better than their plane of damnation in terms of the torture we're expected to survive to reach their paradise? These questions would seem to imply that their God is a vain creature amused by cruelty, who demands to be thanked for being a tyrant in exchange for special treatment once you're dead and there's nothing left for you anyway.

 

Thus, I can only imagine that, under the assumption there is a greater power, that it is not benevolent. And because I would like to believe that such a being is not intentionally cruel, I prefer to think of it as insentient; a force of massive influence that simply is, and simply exerts itself upon reality, inoffensively.

 

There's no reason to worship it if that is the case. I personally just acknowledge it and don't mention or think about it unless the topic arises.

[VCR_CAT]

I certainly don't believe in a God that demands/deserves worship -- though I do believe in a superior entity -- and that is largely due to this this problem of evil.

 

Hitler and other evil people throughout history can be "justified" by religions believing in an omnibenevolent God by declaring them "tests" of the goodness of the rest of the world. But what about events or animals or plagues?

 

I never said every bad thing is a "test", I didn't even say that everything happens for a reason.

 

Also, see my first post re: assumptions over the character of God, because your argument is still more or less "How can God be real if he doesn't fit my definition of God?"

 

I'm not going to post everything that I've said so far again, but I'd encourage you to go back and read those posts.

[Delibirb]

I never said every bad thing is a "test", I didn't even say that everything happens for a reason.

 

Also, see my first post re: assumptions over the character of God, because your argument is still more or less "How can God be real if he doesn't fit my definition of God?"

 

I'm not going to post everything that I've said so far again, but I'd encourage you to go back and read those posts.

I didn't read your posts because I wasn't responding to them. Just jumping in with my introductory position.

 

The definition of a monotheistic God includes omnibenevolence. Any evidence that a declared God is not omnibenevolent is evidence that it is not a God, or at least that it doesn't need to be worshiped for people to be fulfilled, much less that it deserves devotion.

 

And allow me to reiterate, I am not declaring that a supreme being isn't real. I'm stating that this superior force is not a God, at least not a monotheistic one, and deserves no worship, if it even wants/demands it.

[Aerion Brightflame]

I certainly don't believe in a God that demands/deserves worship -- though I do believe in a superior entity -- and that is largely due to this this problem of evil.

 

Hitler and other evil people throughout history can be "justified" by religions believing in an omnibenevolent God by declaring them "tests" of the goodness of the rest of the world. But what about events or animals or plagues? Why are there insects who exist solely to burrow into the eyes of children, causing them to be blind? What does that test? Children's ability to close their eyes? Why are there diseases that kill people for creating children who could potentially worship this God if only it was less distant and cruel? Why is Earth not much better than their plane of damnation in terms of the torture we're expected to survive to reach their paradise? These questions would seem to imply that their God is a vain creature amused by cruelty, who demands to be thanked for being a tyrant in exchange for special treatment once you're dead and there's nothing left for you anyway.

 

I don't think the argument is that the actions are justified through calling them tests, I think that whatever twisted reason existed in there psyche, they did them for reasons they thought would benefit the world as they see it. Say promotion of a superior race. Sometimes that can be in the name of God, sometimes not. But I hold the view that no viewpoint holds sway over anyone without there being some compelling element within it.

 

Plagues and floods and 'acts of god' are harder to justify in that sense, because they lack conciouness, but the general point I make is the same; He is omnipotent, he knows whether or not such acts will bring 'good' or 'prevent evil' Take the Plagues; The plagues killed millions but (to my knowledge) the decreased workforce in Europe lead to massive societal changes and the birth of the reinacennse, which was a massive streak of human enlightenment and societal progress.

 

Again, it's a bit of a cop out because it leans heavily on 'God works in mysterious ways', but I think one underestimates the sheer scope of omnipotence when one doesn't at least consider the idea. Suffering can, and has in history brought prosperity, and perhaps it is the case that the suffering has continually lead to prosperity. Consider the sorts of decisions we justify with limited scope, imagine making those same choices on a larger scale, with far more information. Often it will seem like a mystery to those who cannot share said level of foresight.

[Delibirb]

I don't think the argument is that the actions are justified through calling them tests, I think that whatever twisted reason existed in there psyche, they did them for reasons they thought would benefit the world as they see it. Say promotion of a superior race. Sometimes that can be in the name of God, sometimes not. But I hold the view that no viewpoint holds sway over anyone without there being some compelling element within it.

 

Plagues and floods and 'acts of god' are harder to justify in that sense, because they lack conciouness, but the general point I make is the same; He is omnipotent, he knows whether or not such acts will bring 'good' or 'prevent evil' Take the Plagues; The plagues killed millions but (to my knowledge) the decreased workforce in Europe lead to massive societal changes and the birth of the reinacennse, which was a massive streak of human enlightenment and societal progress.

 

Again, it's a bit of a cop out because it leans heavily on 'God works in mysterious ways', but I think one underestimates the sheer scope of omnipotence when one doesn't at least consider the idea. Suffering can, and has in history brought prosperity, and perhaps it is the case that the suffering has continually lead to prosperity. Consider the sorts of decisions we justify with limited scope, imagine making those same choices on a larger scale, with far more information. Often it will seem like a mystery to those who cannot share said level of foresight.

An omnipotent being that is also benevolent would not need to create plagues to facilitate positive change; it could just will it so. So, it is not omnibenevolent and still not deserving of worship.