[SR04] Megalosmasher X

[Babymon]

I think vanillas should get more attacks now since they are at a disadvantage of having no effect. Basically a form of compensation.

 

We should have lvl 4 vanillas by now with 2400 atk. This was how the game was progressing before Konami put a cap on lvl 4s. Old school yugioh started out with lvl 4 with around 1100-1500 atk being average and 1800 being very GOOD. 

[Blake]

I think vanillas should get more attacks now since they are at a disadvantage of having no effect. Basically a form of compensation.

 

We should have lvl 4 vanillas by now with 2400 atk. This was how the game was progressing before Konami put a cap on lvl 4s. Old school yugioh started out with lvl 4 with around 1100-1500 atk being average and 1800 being very GOOD. 

 

Not really?

 

i mean, the idea is that they are stronk enough, because vanilla support has a few gems, especially for lower level ones.

 

Not having an effect is the payment for having cards like Unexpected Dai or Rescue Rabbit.

[Babymon]

Not really?

 

i mean, the idea is that they are stronk enough, because vanilla support has a few gems, especially for lower level ones.

 

Not having an effect is the payment for having cards like Unexpected Dai or Rescue Rabbit.

 

 

They aren't strong enough. The very fact vanilla lack effect makes comboing off them very hard. And there are only so many cards that can induce a SS spam chain that effect monsters are regularly cable of that you have mention. Vanillas use up your normal summon and only able to combo well when used with spell/traps which often causes you to -1  yourself overall. It's best to compensate for lack of effect by making them into beat sticks.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Konami really doesn't learn from past mistakes do they.

 

Nothing I need to really say on this card. More treatoad BS, waiting for norden/toad to eat a hit tbh.

Both might happen. Horseboat go 0, Toad to 1

[Blake]

They aren't strong enough. The very fact vanilla lack effect makes comboing off them very hard. And there are only so many cards that can induce a SS spam chain that effect monsters are regularly cable of that you have mention. Vanillas use up your normal summon and only able to combo well when used with spell/traps which often causes you to -1  yourself overall. It's best to compensate for lack of effect by making them into beat sticks.

There's a small all here, but you didn't say much. You just reiterated facts and called dai a -1.

 

I'm not saying they couldn't be beefier, but your logic falls flat when re "vanillas have no effects so they need stats", considering being a vanilla DOES have perks as a trade-off.

 

Yes, drawing a vanilla is kinda aids, but you're never going to be planning around such in modern ygo. Hence why BriFu variants tend to run just 1 vanilla, be it Garnet or Galaxy Serpent or Hiruko.

[Babymon]

There's a small all here, but you didn't say much. You just reiterated facts and called dai a -1.

 

I'm not saying they couldn't be beefier, but your logic falls flat when re "vanillas have no effects so they need stats", considering being a vanilla DOES have perks as a trade-off.

 

Yes, drawing a vanilla is kinda aids, but you're never going to be planning around such in modern ygo. Hence why BriFu variants tend to run just 1 vanilla, be it Garnet or Galaxy Serpent or Hiruko.

 

I never said Dai was a -1. I'm saying in general vanillas can't combo on their own without the aid of other cards (usually Spell/trap) while effect monsters themselves often can combo on their own and set up BIG plays. That is a HUGE advantage right there.

 

Normal monsters also eat up Normal summon. How often do you think people are going to draw into dai or Rescue rabbit or even be able to use rabbit effectively all the time?

 

Vanilla doesn't really have much perks compared to effect monsters. Effect>>> Vanillas in game play.

 

Running 1 vanilla and having brilliant fusion is already a major handicap. BRB i draw fusion and the 1 vanilla on my first turn. BRB dead hand and a vanilla that has no effect that can only be used as a beat stick.

 

Again vanillas are very heavily outclassed especially seeing Pendulum can just keep on +1,+2 back monsters the precious vanilla destroyed. Vanillas are slow as f*** and outdated.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I never said Dai was a -1. I'm saying in general vanillas can't combo on their own without the aid of other cards (usually Spell/trap) while effect monsters themselves often can combo on their own and set up BIG plays. That is a HUGE advantage right there.

 

Normal monsters also eat up Normal summon. How often do you think people are going to draw into dai or Rescue rabbit or even be able to use rabbit effectively all the time.

 

Vanilla doesn't really have much perks compared to effect monsters. Effect>>> Vanillas in game play.

 

Running 1 vanilla and having brilliant fusion is already a major handicap. BRB i draw fusion and the 1 vanilla on my first turn. BRB dead hand and a vanilla that has no effect that can only be used as a beat stick.

 

Again vanillas are very heavily outclassed especially seeing Pendulum can just keep on +1,+2 back monsters the precious vanilla destroyed. Vanillas are slow as funk and outdated.

Answer to this is to scale back the most cancerous mechanic the game has seen. Not bring everything to it's level

[Resident Fascist]

Answer to this is to scale back the most cancerous mechanic the game has seen. Not bring everything to it's level

 

The best deck isn't even a Pendulum deck and there has been like...

2...3 good Pendulum decks?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The best deck isn't even a Pendulum deck and there has been like...

2...3 good Pendulum decks?

Can think of 5 off the top of my mind

 

#2&3 decks after zoods are pendulums

[Resident Fascist]

Can think of 5 off the top of my mind

 

#2&3 decks after zoods are pendulums

 

Qliphort

Performapal

Metalfoes

 

D/D barely, if ever, Pendulum Summons. Their guys being Pendulums is more to prevent stupid interactions I'd assume.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Qliphort

Performapal

Metalfoes

 

D/D barely, if ever, Pendulum Summons. Their guys being Pendulums is more to prevent stupid interactions I'd assume.

Magicians

Zarc Magicians

 

Hell even Zefra is pretty good with the newest support. The problem is you're rewarded with late and Midgame +5's for just playing. That's kinda silly IMHO

[Kaiji]

I never said Dai was a -1. I'm saying in general vanillas can't combo on their own without the aid of other cards (usually Spell/trap) while effect monsters themselves often can combo on their own and set up BIG plays. That is a HUGE advantage right there.

 

Normal monsters also eat up Normal summon. How often do you think people are going to draw into dai or Rescue rabbit or even be able to use rabbit effectively all the time?

 

Vanilla doesn't really have much perks compared to effect monsters. Effect>>> Vanillas in game play.

 

Running 1 vanilla and having brilliant fusion is already a major handicap. BRB i draw fusion and the 1 vanilla on my first turn. BRB dead hand and a vanilla that has no effect that can only be used as a beat stick.

 

Again vanillas are very heavily outclassed especially seeing Pendulum can just keep on +1,+2 back monsters the precious vanilla destroyed. Vanillas are slow as f*** and outdated.

If you actually saw the math behind drawing Garnet, you wouldn't call situations like playing good cards like Brilliant a "major handicap."

 

Of course this begs the question, what are the other 36 cards you are playing that means drawing 1 vanilla means you lose the game nickyoung.jpg

 

Let's also ignore all the fantastic Normal Support and the fact that normal pendulums benefit greatly from this typing.

BRB removing Qliphort Scout from my deck because drawing it sucks cause vanillas are outclassed.

[Sleepy]

IMO, this is the right way of making vanillas: Vanillas need to fill a niche with their stats and characteristics. This is why some decks ran Frog the Jam even if for a little bit, and why Brilliant Fusion and Dinno Rabbit convince people of running vanillas.

 

Though as it is right now, they have it somewhat risky by never encouraging vanillas to be desirable draws. The only generic support I can recall that tried to mitigate this was Faustian Bargain, bringing a way to Special Summon without going minus, but the card hasn't aged well, not to say it was ever very relevant to begin with but it was a good concept.

 

One thing they did back in the day up until around 2002-ish is bring more power by directly beefing up brute force and nothing else. Honestly that's an aspect I don't think anybody would want that. I especially recall hearing the 1900 ATK beater Gemini Elf actually already existed by the time we TCG people got Legend of the Blue Eyes White Dragon (AKA first TCG set ever), the same set that had Hitotsumi Giant (1200 ATK) and Celtic Guardian (1400 ATK) as the non-Tribute beater standard. Standard that would have weakened everything that came after it had they kept it. Gemini Elf was released mid-way into DM's life-span at LON and it still managed to be a staple with its few years of delay.

 

I'm glad at least they dropped that formula (you can see comparing MRD cards with LOB cards how much of a boost in powercreep the game got) at some point, because it is about the most boring and predictable way of power-creep. Friend and I back at the end of the GX era were all like

"Gene-Warped Warwolf finally dethroned Gemini Elf huh? I guess in a few years we'll have 2100+ ATK vanillas".

I was glad we got the Synchro era instead. We were also noting how destruction had gotten some more power over time, and Synchro awesomely gave us Stardust Dragon as a very helpful tool that didn't outright render "destroy" obsolete. 

 

Just beefing up vanillas is not right. In game-design, designing incompatibles to shift the direction of the game a little is better than straight-up power-creep.

 

Well..... Yugioh has both, but still...

[notcleverusername]

I never said Dai was a -1. I'm saying in general vanillas can't combo on their own without the aid of other cards (usually Spell/trap) while effect monsters themselves often can combo on their own and set up BIG plays. That is a HUGE advantage right there.

 

Normal monsters also eat up Normal summon. How often do you think people are going to draw into dai or Rescue rabbit or even be able to use rabbit effectively all the time?

 

Vanilla doesn't really have much perks compared to effect monsters. Effect>>> Vanillas in game play.

 

Running 1 vanilla and having brilliant fusion is already a major handicap. BRB i draw fusion and the 1 vanilla on my first turn. BRB dead hand and a vanilla that has no effect that can only be used as a beat stick.

 

Again vanillas are very heavily outclassed especially seeing Pendulum can just keep on +1,+2 back monsters the precious vanilla destroyed. Vanillas are slow as f*** and outdated.

Worth remembering that a lot of Effect monsters are arguably the same value as or worse than vanillas

Compare Odd-Eyes Dragon (not the Pendulum one) with any other level 7 DARK Dragon Normal, or with the OG Dark Magician

Normal monsters should be looked at due to their value as fodder, not their value as a standalone monster. It's important to remember that name, Type, and Attribute do just as much to determine viability as actual effects.

 

Magicians

Zarc Magicians

 

Hell even Zefra is pretty good with the newest support. The problem is you're rewarded with late and Midgame +5's for just playing. That's kinda silly IMHO

>OG Magicians

>Cancerous

HAHAHA

Zarc Magicians def good but is hard to judge how "cancerous" they are, if you want to use such an arbitrary and ridiculous term, in this format

Pendulums def pretty crazy design but TBH Synchro most cancerous mechanic if you want to go by "bad design"

Bringing everything to Pendulum's level is an imaginary problem because there's only been 1 time when Pendulum was obviously the best mechanic to play

[Sleepy]

 

Pendulums def pretty crazy design but TBH Synchro most cancerous mechanic if you want to go by "bad design"

Bringing everything to Pendulum's level is an imaginary problem because there's only been 1 time when Pendulum was obviously the best mechanic to play

 

 

Actually, Rituals and Pendulums would be the worst mechanics if you actually were referring to the mechanics themselves.

Rituals require a specific monster drawn that is dead mostly anywhere else, a specific spell that is mostly dead anywhere else, and sometimes a specific Tribute. It is a little too much investment and the game usually needs to dedicate entire decks just to run the mechanic.

Pendulums are a mass Summon mechanic whose OPT clause makes it a natural "all or nothing" mechanic, being able to eventually flood the field with help of the natural revival built-in for them, and if you wanna get technical, look at the Scales as if they were Materials A and B, and look at how they have to be dealt with separately to keep them from being re-used, and easily result in more than one monster. Cards in the mechanic always have the potential of a monster effect and a Pendulum effect for extra options, and are naturally recurrent fodder, which was not an entirely bad idea by itself either.

 

Synchros are easy to control by the design of Tuners and are a fair toolbox option with appropriate investment.

Xyzs are probably the most naturally-fitting toolbox they could have come up with. Easily the most generic. That can prove hard to balance out but from how generic it is, but still not THAT hard.

Fusions are a corrected form of Rituals, which is odd because they are older than Ritual's mechanic.

 

 

 

What I'm saying here is, let's not confuse the quality of the mechanic's design with the impact in the meta and effects specifically revolving around them. Of course the game can have effects be above any of these mechanics, and would the creation time of Synchros and Xyzs have been swapped, the pool and support quality towards both would have been different than what we have.

[notcleverusername]

 

Aw naw yea mechanically speaking Synchro isn't worse design than Pends

But in actual application they def are

Trishy, Hyper Lib, Denglong, Brionac, Dewloren, Goyo before it got deathcreeped, every single Quasar turbo that can now go into the even worse design Cosmic Blazar, arguably Ultimaya and Crystal Wing (at least, lots of people get overly mad about those too)

Counting the Chain Material loops as variations on a single loop, I think is fair to say Synchro has more loops/locks/OTKs/FTKs than any other mechanic.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Pendulums def pretty crazy design but TBH Synchro most cancerous mechanic if you want to go by "bad design"

Synchros had a few synchros that were problematic at the time

 

Mainly the banned 4. That changed with time as 2 were errated'd into fairness, and the other two became less potent. 

 

Pendulum is the first time a mechanic on it's own is a low investment late game + machine

[notcleverusername]

Synchros had a few synchros that were problematic at the time

 

Mainly the banned 4. That changed with time as 2 were errated'd into fairness, and the other two became less potent. 

 

Pendulum is the first time a mechanic on it's own is a low investment late game + machine

Mate if you wanna be cheeky enough to call OG Magicians "cancerous" then ya better be cheeky enough to accept Nat Beast, Dark Strike Fighter, Karakuris, and Our Lord and Savior Denglong in the same sphere

Pendulum as a mechanic you can argue as being bad design but what you can't argue is that it needs to be scaled back, because with 1 notable exception it's never actually been heads and tails borken compared to their corresponding non-Pendulum meta counterparts

 

Also "low investment" my ass

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Mate if you wanna be cheeky enough to call OG Magicians "cancerous" then ya better be cheeky enough to accept Nat Beast, Dark Strike Fighter, Karakuris, and Our Lord and Savior Denglong in the same sphere

Pendulum as a mechanic you can argue as being bad design but what you can't argue is that it needs to be scaled back, because with 1 notable exception it's never actually been heads and tails borken compared to their corresponding non-Pendulum meta counterparts

 

Also "low investment" my ass

OC Magicians got funked on both banlists. P-Call and Insight are at 1 for a reason.

 

I did mention DSF, 2 banned synchs that got errata'd = BRIO+DSF

 

And I'd argue limiting or banning certain synchros always seems to have done the sync decks in, unlike pendulum decks which seem to need a couple waves of hits to do in

 

Call me when denglong merits a hit

[Blake]

Aw naw yea mechanically speaking Synchro isn't worse design than Pends

But in actual application they def are

Trishy, Hyper Lib, Denglong, Brionac, Dewloren, Goyo before it got deathcreeped, every single Quasar turbo that can now go into the even worse design Cosmic Blazar, arguably Ultimaya and Crystal Wing (at least, lots of people get overly mad about those too)

Counting the Chain Material loops as variations on a single loop, I think is fair to say Synchro has more loops/locks/OTKs/FTKs than any other mechanic.

I mean, this hits the nail on the head, in my eyes.

 

I think Synchro is actually a very well designed mechanic, but the implementation is just garbage.

 

It's either pay 2 cards to make stronk card (Ignister, Omega, etc.) or use any number of little cards that are inconsistent to make something that's TOO stronk.

 

Pendulum, overall, has been implemented better than Synchro has.

[notcleverusername]

OC Magicians got f***ed on both banlists. P-Call and Insight are at 1 for a reason.

 

I did mention DSF, 2 banned synchs that got errata'd = BRIO+DSF

 

And I'd argue limiting or banning certain synchros always seems to have done the sync decks in, unlike pendulum decks which seem to need a couple waves of hits to do in

 

Call me when denglong merits a hit

Ya know what else got funked on the banlist

Shaddolls

You wanna tell me banlist hits correlate to actual borkenness or do you want to say FREE CONSTRUCT

At least Wisdom-Eye makes sense now with Zarc but honestly back then if they had just left Magicians alone they would easily have gotten creeped out

 

Denglong doesn't merit a hit if you want to talk relevance

But if you want to talk design, which your previous posts in this thread and elsewhere indicate you do, it's pretty. fukking. bad.

Like who needs +5 engine in late game at -2 cost when you can get +5 engine in early game at -1 cost with less bricking because it's Extra 5

[Kaiji]

rofl magician hits were only necessary so metalfoes could take their place as the generic 1 and 8 scales not cause magicians were CANCEROUS TOXIC ENVIRONMENT -12.some decimal % EACH TURN

[notcleverusername]

Can think of 5 off the top of my mind

 

#2&3 decks after zoods are pendulums

Side note but only just realized you also said this

Last I've heard 2 and 3 were True Dracos and Infernoids

Even assuming you count Zarc Magicians and Metalfoes as contenders, which is false according to a check on Road of the King I made just now, that's 2 Pend decks nowhere near dominating vs 3 non-Pends, 1 of which is doing so much better than almost all the others, bar the Tribute Summon based cards (how's that for a mechanic that needs to be scaled back?), that there's really no point in even comparing them

 

Also to keep my post related to the thread, something I noticed earlier but

Why is Predator Mode actually worse at hunting?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Side note but only just realized you also said this

Last I've heard 2 and 3 were True Dracos and Infernoids

Even assuming you count Zarc Magicians and Metalfoes as contenders, which is false according to a check on Road of the King I made just now, that's 2 Pend decks nowhere near dominating vs 3 non-Pends, 1 of which is doing so much better than almost all the others, bar the Tribute Summon based cards (how's that for a mechanic that needs to be scaled back?), that there's really no point in even comparing them

 

Also to keep my post related to the thread, something I noticed earlier but

Why is Predator Mode actually worse at hunting?

http://roadoftheking.com/ocg-2017-01-metagame-report-5

 

6 isn't out yet. But metals did overtake infernoids post ghost ash. Your point obv stands about a non pen deck crushing competition ATM

 

Pendulums aren't a -2. They're a +0 if you wanna talk adv

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Pendulums are an effective -2 investment that basically allows you to + out the ass. This has been said for years, and is generally accepted.

 

As for normal monsters not being good enough: If a monster card with no effect sees play, I think that's pretty damn good enough.

 

As for a normal fire monster with 2000/200, I'm pretty sure that it would be awful, but some of the old DP crowd know just how much I love rekindling, so of course I'm on board.

 

As for this, literally a marginally better kabazauls. Not much to see, and not much to speculate, because the niche already exists, but this is a tad bit better, so that's always nice. Part of me wishes it were a tuner but I can only assume that would bust something in half.