Most Europeans think Trump didn't go far enough, and support Total Muslim ban

[Aerion Brightflame]

The Skittles analogy is weak;

 

It's not a choice of say a handful in a bowl of 30-40 that will kill you. It's the possibility that a handful in 10,000 of those may try to harm you, and that harm may include killing you. It makes an assumption that the instant you make the decision to take some skittles when that's not the case; we are talking refugees, there is a form of vetting process, and we are talking a first world nation that has access to modern surveillance.

 

The US has taken what an average of 10,000 refugees say from these regions of the world each year in the last decade, and yet there's been almost no indications of a 'bad handful' amongst them because essentially all terror attacks on US soil has been commited by long term US citizens who've become radicalised. If one actually wants to get to the root of the terror issue one has to confront why the ideology can take hold in people in the nation. Because nobody believes in anything unless they seem some advantage or benefit to doing so. Find that reason for Islam and combat it there such that it cannot propigate within the US.

 

Anyway, in the interests of bringing the conversation to a more directed direction here's a hypothetical:

 

What if any and all refugees from regions of 'suspected threat' had to consent to manditory high levels of electronic surveilance and monitoring for an undertermined period of time until they are deemed to have integrated into US society? Effectively a 'green card' system for refugees where instead of access the cost of not integrating is inferior civil liberties. A lisence that can be revoked retroactively upon infringement of a set of critera say.

 

Because the opposition to refugees comes in part from a fear of there willingness to integrate, and a part fear of potential danger why institute a measure that aims to try and ensure that whilst being a 'halfway point' because full acess and no access? Would a system intended to monitor for danger and encourage integration be acceptable?

[Sunshine Jesse]

The metaphor is also flawed because I funking love skittles and would gladly take the risk.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Speaking of Europe though

 

 

When Anglo journalists suggest that Le Pen is 'just' a Trump or Brexit phenomena for France they're wrong. Her demographics are the opposite. Though POTUS did pretty well with Millennials(40%), the idea here is the two conservative candidates are doing the best with the Millennials 

[Halubaris Maphotika]

So this is probably going to be a long post and I am sick so do keep in mind my grammar might suffer from it.

 

One thing I try to do is go out and talk to people in order to get a more "Hands-on" approach as to their views. Being in Florida, I cannot speak for other states in this country, so do keep that in mind.

 

Surprisingly, Florida has a steadfast population of Muslims, or at least from what I have seen. It was because of this, I was able to talk to a lot of Muslims from multiple different walks of life. What I noticed was that, what we were being told as to what they believed, wasn't entirely the truth (IN FLORIDA).

 

I'll start by mentioning the various Imams I met along the way and what they told me. I'm keeping their names anonymous for reasons that I will state later.

 

From how things went, I could assume these Imams did not know each other, I cannot prove this. I asked them mostly basic questions in my conversations with them, these questions evolved for depending reasons as time went by.

 

One of my more important questions was this:

 

"How do you feel about a Trump presidency?" (This question was asked before Trump won the election) Of the three imams I talked to, only one replied negatively to a Trump presidency. This actually startled me. I asked further about why they felt this way.

 

The first imam stated that America was having a border issue, he felt that letting all of these refugees in would come at an extreme cost. He was born in America and states that he never had to deal with Muslim-hate in his life, though he does not doubt it exists. He believed that Obamacare was a failure and that Hillary Clinton would be a detriment to the American economy. He says most American Muslims are largely Moderate, and that the problem isn't Islam, but the Middle East itself. (NOTE: All three Imams supported Gay marriage, and only one Imam responded against Transgender rights)

 

The second imam said the same thing though with a little bit more context.

 

Unlike the first, he was not born in America, as he came to America in 2003. While he had to deal with heavy Muslim-hate in the early days, it all gradually died down as the years went on. He states that the Middle East was not well in the early to late 90's, and notes that he led a troubled life in Iraq. As he puts it, the streets were filthy, criminals practically ran the place, and fear hung over many of the people who lived there. Despite that, he says, there were many who supported the regime at the time, because it co-aligned with their Muslim beliefs. Imams along the Middle East instilled a sense of fear within the populous, constantly preaching of the downfall of Islam to the encroaching shadow-hand of the West. This proved financially beneficial to these preachers, who gathered massive followings and birthed a high amount of radicals. Those who spoke out, were beaten or killed.

 

As the regime began to support and work with these preachers, things got even worse. Suddenly, the radical ravings became law and many people were scared for their safety.

 

I asked him if the invasion of Iraq helped give fire to these radicals and make them popular. He states this is not the case. The only thing the War in Iraq did, as he exclaims, was shine a light on the goings on in the Middle East. Acid throwings, rape, and bigotry had already festered within the country and the Middle East in general by the time US troops got there. By doing so though, he says that the world began to look at the Middle East with wider eyes, and so the hate-crimes and radical preachings became much more known, and that these things were no longer ignored or swept under the rug as they had before.

 

With this in mind, he believes that the Middle East is a cesspool of madness, eating itself alive through paranoia and a fanatical nostalgia to the caliphates of old. He feels allowing all of these refugees will bring in many fanatics, who in the beginning were confined to the Middle East, and they will attempt to turn the country into their vision, and he feels they will not do it peacefully. One of the reasons that Moderate Muslims are not speaking out, as he puts it, is fear. Many are afraid of speaking out for fear that these radicals will do to them as they did to past dissenters in the Middle East. It was because of this he implored me to not make his name public, as he fears the backlash from radical Muslims could put his life in danger.

 

The third Imam stated that he does not like Trump, and fears that his presidency could result in government pressure within the Islamic community in America, not just over in the Middle East. He finds Russia to be an enemy to human kind and believes that war with them is inevitable, no matter how long we prolong it. That said, he does believe that Radicals will come with the refugees, but feels it is a necessary evil to save the innocent Muslims seeking refuge. This Imam was also born in America.

 

Before I spoke to the Imams I went to a local mall over the course of three weeks (I love movies and they have a theater there so I am always at the mall). I asked numerous Muslims (mostly between the ages of 16-28), how they felt about Trump. The result was universally negative. Most felt that his presidency would result in higher Islamaphobia and that the wall wasn't going to be any more successful in keeping Immigrants out. I then asked them about certain social issues and received mixed results. Most stated that they were not "Okay" with homosexuals, but that they largely stay away from them so there isn't an issue. The other half stated they were fine with it. However, things got more one sided when Transsexuals were brought into the mix, with only a small sections of the people I talked to being okay with Transgendered rights.

 

I asked the Imams about this, and why the opinions of these young Muslims seem so mixed. All of the Imams pretty much said the same thing.

 

"They aren't 'True' believers."

 

They state that, despite the fact all of these people claim to Muslim, they have not seen most of them in their Mosques. They state that, had I asked them, they would not be able to properly recite any Qu'ran passages. To them, these young Muslims are simply using Islam as a social tentpole, without actually committing themselves to the actual religion itself. The second Imam stated that these young Muslims disrespect the religion by posting nonsensical Arabic messages on social media, wherein they probably do not know Arabic at all.

 

[spoiler=Random Side Story]

My last ex-girlfriend was a Muslim from Tunisia. While I did love her greatly, I had a relative who was homosexual and she made it clear she did not like homosexuals, did not agree with Gay marriage, and felt it was disgusting. This was one of the primary reasons we broke up. However, it seems to give credence to the claim that American Muslims and Foreign Muslims hold widely different beliefs.

 

[Tentacruel]

The problem with metaphors is that they're a bit of a reach and people are going to ignore it if it's not supporting their existing opinion.

 

The skittles metaphor is basically the same thing people were saying during the yesallwomen thing.

[vla1ne]

europeans have had quite a bit to deal with from the radical muslim population, so a lot of them having some disdain for muslim immigration en masse makes sense. as for blocking muslims, i think that trump went both too far, and not far enough.  halting immigration for a time makes sense, but not in the way he's done it. in essence, he's made the same mistake that duterte made. he has the correct idea, but he forced it through far to quickly, he did not establish the ban as well as he could or should have due to his rush implementing it, and he does not have anything of substance to follow through with it at this point in time. 

 

his goal is to put america first, and if that means halting immigration from countries thought to pose a notable threat to american citizens, then so be it. where he needs to actually place the backbone of his plan though, is with his ideas. according to him, in the (i believe it was the) second debate, he believes that telling all parts of his plan to the public is a bad idea and gives his enemy the heads up, but as far as i can tell, he has no second stage at all, and has nothing that he could have properly used to implement and benefit from this.

 

time will tell i suppose.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/world/asia/nuristan-province-afghanistan-honor-killings.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/CtJmp0lY6P

 

Read this story and tell me why I should expose my daughter to this draconian cult)?

[vla1ne]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/world/asia/nuristan-province-afghanistan-honor-killings.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=https://t.co/CtJmp0lY6P

 

Read this story and tell me why I should expose my daughter to this draconian cult)?

because you want to know the virtues of honor killing?/s

 

that's some stone age s*** right there. the size of the mob's rather telling as well. 200+ people over a damn elopement is just insane. why not just get your money back and go about your life? now there's 2 dead and multiple cops shot. somewhat disappointing that the only time it gets attention is when a lot of money's involved. anything to keep em dumb and afraid over there, i guess.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

because you want to know the virtues of honor killing?/s

 

that's some stone age s*** right there. the size of the mob's rather telling as well. 200+ people over a damn elopement is just insane. why not just get your money back and go about your life? now there's 2 dead and multiple cops shot. somewhat disappointing that the only time it gets attention is when a lot of money's involved. anything to keep em dumb and afraid over there, i guess.

These are the "civilians" too. Not Daesh. Not Al Queda. Not Taliban. This is what a refugee looks like. No thanks

[vla1ne]

These are the "civilians" too. Not Daesh. Not Al Queda. Not Taliban. This is what a refugee looks like. No thanks

as has been stated before. they hold different values. what an american considers extreme may not be what an afghani considers extreme, and even should both sides agree that it is extreme, one side may not necessarily be against it for being extreme.

 

side note, that's why borders exist. not everybody likes what we like, or hates what we hate, or values what we value, and while that's fine in general, letting too much flow in from places so vastly different, can be very bad for the people of this country. if chocolate refuses to melt, why throw it in the melting pot?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

as has been stated before. they hold different values. what an american considers extreme may not be what an afghani considers extreme, and even should both sides agree that it is extreme, one side may not necessarily be against it for being extreme.

 

side note, that's why borders exist. not everybody likes what we like, or hates what we hate, or values what we value, and while that's fine in general, letting too much flow in from places so vastly different, can be very bad for the people of this country. if chocolate refuses to melt, why throw it in the melting pot?

Yet president Trump is at fault for his EO?

[vla1ne]

Yet president Trump is at fault for his EO?

yes, and no.

 

yes, because it was pushed through with no follow up, as far as i can tell.  and the speed of doing so simply messes up the argument, because the "ZOMG RACIST XENOPHOBIC ECT" arguments will simply keep pouring in. but that's about as far as the fault goes. people are going to call him, and his supporters racist all day long, as long as they like, and doing something on this scale is only strengthening the argument as far as many of them are concerned. taking the time to explain before implementing is something he should really get into the hang of if he wants to win anybody over. but this is trump we're talking about, so i doubt that's happening any time soon.

 

 

the no, comes partially from the quoted above post of mine. america's a melting pot, but refugees, and many muslim immigrants from said countries, have zero intent on melting into society. they don't want to bring and adopt new ways of life, they simply wish to spread their own, values, while accepting nothing cultural of the culture that has accepted them. the things that america has, are here for americans, and those who wish to become americans.

[Phantom Roxas]

Should have done this sooner, but moving this thread to Debates. It seems more appropriate for the section.