Most Europeans think Trump didn't go far enough, and support Total Muslim ban

[Mr. Hyde]

I ignore those articles because they are entirely opinion based, and have no evidence.  Including that one about the Dearborn Michigan Christians taunting the Muslim community.  It is your 1st Amendment right to Proselytize in the streets, but those men were attacked for it.  There is no evidence to suggest that they instigated the violence.  And good for the 1 Muslim guy who tried to stop the crowd from throwing rocks...still outnumbered by the majority.  

 

I have studied these things.  I took two theology classes in my time at College, and my first year was an in depth look towards Islam and Judaism.  We talked a lot about Malcom X, and his practices, and the 5 pillars of Islam yada yada, but we never talked about anything wrong with the ideology that is Islam.  We were on a campus, full of mostly liberal young people, including me.  I was once myself Liberal, and sentimental towards the Muslim community far and wide.  I too blamed America and the West for what was happening, and that we wrought this upon ourselves because of interests in the Middle East.

 

But then I grew up and stopped turning a blind eye to what Islam is.  In the countries where Sharia Law is practiced, it is abhorrent.  It is utterly terrible, but there is no Muslim peace movement to stop it in these countries, rather they go on throwing acid in rape victim's faces and throwing gay people off of roofs.  

 

These aren't cherry picked verses either.  If you want to talk about cherry picking, people rather like to cherry pick all the positive things in the Koran, which is slightly a minority verse you find in the book.  

 

I'm not some edgelord who think's all religion is evil, or is the root of evil.  Believe what you wish to believe.  But as soon as you infringe on someone's civil rights and liberties with said belief, that's where the problems come in.  Are some other religions doing this?  Yes.  As i've stated two times now, Rwanda is a case of extreme adherence to the literal quotes from the bible.  Christianity, however, is a minority when it comes to this and is outnumbered 12 to 1 by the Islam ruled countries of the world.  That is the area in which these Syrian Refugees are coming from, and that is the area I wish immigration into the West would cease, or at least become stricter.

 

This is not a witch hunt for Muslims.  As I stated in my first post, I have many Muslim friends...I detached myself from one when he openly admitted to advocating for Hamas.  I don't wish to #BanAllMuslims for their beliefs, just for their practices.  Until the middle east steps into the 21st century, I think they can immigrate to local Muslim countries.  Too bad MOST aren't accepting them.  And forget about it if you have an Israeli passport.   

[VCR_CAT]

I ignore those articles because they are entirely opinion based, and have no evidence.  Including that one about the Dearborn Michigan Christians taunting the Muslim community.  It is your 1st Amendment right to Proselytize in the streets, but those men were attacked for it.  There is no evidence to suggest that they instigated the violence.  And good for the 1 Muslim guy who tried to stop the crowd from throwing rocks...still outnumbered by the majority. 

 

You wouldn't know unless you read it, which you didn't, obviously, because the first is an interview, the second is a report on an individual who actually took the time to document groups and instances who have spoken out against violent activities in the east, the third is frickin' Wikipedia, the fourth is actually about Taharrush (which is hilarious because you then brought it up like as if they hadn't heard about it), and the last is a news report about which countries host the most refugees. Again, actually take the time to, y'know, address the information instead of acting like it's nothing just by looking at the source alone.

 

Also, stop acting like you know the majority. You definitely frickin' don't. We're talking 1.6 billion frickin' people that are muslims. You expect me to believe that you know every single one of them enough to really make this an accurate statement? Because you're doing a pretty grand job trying to convince me this isn't just poorly based prejudice.

 

 

I have studied these things.  I took two theology classes in my time at College, and my first year was an in depth look towards Islam and Judaism.  We talked a lot about Malcom X, and his practices, and the 5 pillars of Islam yada yada, but we never talked about anything wrong with the ideology that is Islam. 

 

Two classes, especially two classes that didn't actually focus specifically on the topic at hand, an expert does not make. More significant than just some upper-middle class shmuck casually googling translations of the Koran, but that's still a very shallow look into the religion and culture. Considering how much someone has to study to become a leader or a scholar in the religion, 2 classes that aren't even primarily about Islam and its history isn't going to give you NEARLY enough of a window into their culture and faith. It's seriously not that simple.

 

 

But then I grew up and stopped turning a blind eye to what Islam is.  In the countries where Sharia Law is practiced, it is abhorrent.  It is utterly terrible, but there is no Muslim peace movement to stop it in these countries, rather they go on throwing acid in rape victim's faces and throwing gay people off of roofs.  

 

You know that part where I go off on people scapegoating one thing for the actions of terrible people? You don't think I didn't bring that up for a reason? Because that's the exact kind of sheet you're doing now. Acid attacks aren't a result of islam, that's an entirely different can of worms altogether. None of that "is what Islam is", that's what a region of the world that has a pretty good history in the past 100+ years being shat on by richer, western countries is like. Trying to argue to me that what's going on in the middle east is a result of islam is really quite cute, because you basically don't really cite anything to do it. You tell me "Because horrible actions are done in this region, and because this religion originates from that region, therefore, that religion is horrible." You're ignoring any sort of alternative reason for why what's going on in the middle east is the case, and it's not only ignorant, but it's what starts breading even worse prejudice.

 

You know what's a good idea? Maybe take a look into Sharia Law; who those people are that are enforcing it, why they are enforcing it, what lead to their rise in power. Because buddy, it's not nearly as simple as "Well they're there because that's what they believe." IS IT what they believe? Is the law they enforce the way the scripture is meant to be interpreted, or is it like a literal interpretation of the Bible, which you seriously shouldn't do in all of it? Yeah, I'm not going to deny what happens there is horrible, but no effort has been taken to really KNOW what is going on and why it's happening. Because, y'know, it's much easier to just blame Islam and get on with your day.

 

 

I'm not some edgelord who think's all religion is evil, or is the root of evil.  Believe what you wish to believe.  But as soon as you infringe on someone's civil rights and liberties with said belief, that's where the problems come in.  Are some other religions doing this?  Yes.  As i've stated two times now, Rwanda is a case of extreme adherence to the literal quotes from the bible.  Christianity, however, is a minority when it comes to this and is outnumbered 12 to 1 by the Islam ruled countries of the world.  That is the area in which these Syrian Refugees are coming from, and that is the area I wish immigration into the West would cease, or at least become stricter.

 

This is not a witch hunt for Muslims.  As I stated in my first post, I have many Muslim friends...I detached myself from one when he openly admitted to advocating for Hamas.  I don't wish to #BanAllMuslims for their beliefs, just for their practices.  Until the middle east steps into the 21st century, I think they can immigrate to local Muslim countries.  Too bad MOST aren't accepting them.  And forget about it if you have an Israeli passport.   

 

Again: Bad people do bad things to other people under a wide variety of reasons. Literal and/or improper interpretations of religious text are one of many avenues for how they might wish to justify their actions. And again: What do you know about Muslim practices, what do you know about their culture and history? Have you even glimpsed at the articles Elly posted, are you still stuck on your ad hominem argument that they're sheet because those sites aren't the most credible of sources? So far, seems as you haven't based on what you're saying, and you've done a pretty poor job to really show me or anyone here that you've taken the time to really understand what's going on there.

[a bad post]

I ignore those articles because they are entirely opinion based, and have no evidence.  Including that one about the Dearborn Michigan Christians taunting the Muslim community.  It is your 1st Amendment right to Proselytize in the streets, but those men were attacked for it.  There is no evidence to suggest that they instigated the violence.  And good for the 1 Muslim guy who tried to stop the crowd from throwing rocks...still outnumbered by the majority.  

 

I have studied these things.  I took two theology classes in my time at College, and my first year was an in depth look towards Islam and Judaism.  We talked a lot about Malcom X, and his practices, and the 5 pillars of Islam yada yada, but we never talked about anything wrong with the ideology that is Islam.  We were on a campus, full of mostly liberal young people, including me.  I was once myself Liberal, and sentimental towards the Muslim community far and wide.  I too blamed America and the West for what was happening, and that we wrought this upon ourselves because of interests in the Middle East.

 

But then I grew up and stopped turning a blind eye to what Islam is.  In the countries where Sharia Law is practiced, it is abhorrent.  It is utterly terrible, but there is no Muslim peace movement to stop it in these countries, rather they go on throwing acid in rape victim's faces and throwing gay people off of roofs.  

 

These aren't cherry picked verses either.  If you want to talk about cherry picking, people rather like to cherry pick all the positive things in the Koran, which is slightly a minority verse you find in the book.  

 

I'm not some edgelord who think's all religion is evil, or is the root of evil.  Believe what you wish to believe.  But as soon as you infringe on someone's civil rights and liberties with said belief, that's where the problems come in.  Are some other religions doing this?  Yes.  As i've stated two times now, Rwanda is a case of extreme adherence to the literal quotes from the bible.  Christianity, however, is a minority when it comes to this and is outnumbered 12 to 1 by the Islam ruled countries of the world.  That is the area in which these Syrian Refugees are coming from, and that is the area I wish immigration into the West would cease, or at least become stricter.

 

This is not a witch hunt for Muslims.  As I stated in my first post, I have many Muslim friends...I detached myself from one when he openly admitted to advocating for Hamas.  I don't wish to #BanAllMuslims for their beliefs, just for their practices.  Until the middle east steps into the 21st century, I think they can immigrate to local Muslim countries.  Too bad MOST aren't accepting them.  And forget about it if you have an Israeli passport.   

You have used Wikipedia as a source yourself, so...? Also, every source I put up there has sources for where they get their facts. There's plenty of facts in them, you're being willfully ignorant to them, but I suppose that makes an ass of you not me. 

 

Also, can we just talk about how hilarious that you're going to talk about how you know what Islam is because you took two theology classes? There are scholars who have spent their entire lives studying both of those religions and still don't attempt claim they know as much about them as you do. Also the I have [insert group here] friends defense is literally the weakest sheet I've ever seen. Girl at my high school only dated black boys, that didn't stop her from being a massive racist and a bigot.

 

Also you don't have to look at Rwanda to find Christians infringing on others rights, look in the good ol' US of A, cause there's still Christians trying to do that here. Considering you still think that most Muslim majority countries aren't accepting refugees showed that you apparently think that Al Jazeera is an uncredible source that only relies on opinions. Honestly your ability to stick your head in the sand is astounding.

[Mr. Hyde]

I read all of Elly's articles.  They were opinion pieces with little facts or sources to back them up.  The Wikipedia article is also poorly cited, seeing as how the results of those findings was from polls (relay back to White's statements on how Polls are terrible sources of infomation).  

 

You both are so set on making the US the enemy.  Apologizing for our occupancy in their countries, and tieing that to a correlation in their behaviour, rather than the actual culture of the middle east.  You're going to blame the throwing of acid into a rape victim's face on the occupancy on the West?  That is incredibly naive thinking.  You're going to blame the slaughter of christians, jews, and homosexuals on the West's occupation in the middle east, instead of looking at their culture and holy books?  That is literally insane.  

 

And just because I've taken two classes, doesn't invalidate my claims.  It's two more classes than most of the people on here have taken.  It doesn't invalidate the statistics, it doesn't invalidate the atrocities that are committed in the third world.  

 

And Al Jazeera isn't a credible source either dear Elly.  They cite Al Jazeera information...and you're telling me Al Jazeera isn't biased at all in this matter?  Why don't you stop the ad hominems yourself and get your head out of the sand.  

 

There is no prejudice here.  However, in Islam, there culture is built on prejudice.  Prejudice against women, and gays.  I don't understand why you think this is so inconceivable that this is true.  It is totally mind boggling that you won't let even condemn those beliefs, that you won't condemn the violent acts against freedom that occur everyday in the middle east.  

 

I know this might not be the time and place for a meme, but I'm going to make it one in response to your, bad people are bad people argument.  

 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 when literally anyone from this site thinks they absolutely know what's-what about a religion or culture they have spent absolutely no significant time studying or living with

 

You're literally someone from this site. How do you know they're benevolent buddies. Or did I miss your degree in Islamic literature and scripture.

 

Just think you need to be consistent. If Hyde criticizing Islam for being malevolent is ignorance, surely your pandering to it's benevolence is similarly ignorant given neither of you have a vast knowledge of the Islamic scriptures and their "correct" meaning

[VCR_CAT]

You're literally someone from this site. How do you know they're benevolent buddies. Or did I miss your degree in Islamic literature and scripture

 

I don't. Unlike you ignorant morons I'm not claiming to understand anything about Islam, because I don't. If anything, from my own studies I've come to understand that there's a helluva lot you need to get before you understand their culture, religion, and history. Did I mention the part where I'd actually have my degree in Biblical Studies if not for a few minor things, one of such in part was an honest screw-up on my part? Because the fun fact about studying one near-middle-eastern faith in greater detail is it gives you a pretty dang good idea of what steps you need to take to really unpack a given scripture and, in turn, understand what's going on with a given culture or religion. It's actually fascinating stuff and I really enjoyed those years of studies.

 

More or less, I've come to the understanding that I don't understand and that there's so much I'd need to do before I can really come to good judgment call; not that you really should be generalizing the faith that currently 1.6 billion people practice in, because that would just be plain stupid.

 

Frickin' take the time to know what you're talking about, because nothing of what you or Hyde has spoken of has convinced me you actually know what you're talking about and this isn't just some poorly based prejudice that you're using to excuse naive and ignorant ideals.

 

 

I read all of Elly's articles.  They were opinion pieces with little facts or sources to back them up.  The Wikipedia article is also poorly cited, seeing as how the results of those findings was from polls (relay back to White's statements on how Polls are terrible sources of infomation).  

 

You both are so set on making the US the enemy.  Apologizing for our occupancy in their countries, and tieing that to a correlation in their behaviour, rather than the actual culture of the middle east.  You're going to blame the throwing of acid into a rape victim's face on the occupancy on the West?  That is incredibly naive thinking.  You're going to blame the slaughter of christians, jews, and homosexuals on the West's occupation in the middle east, instead of looking at their culture and holy books?  That is literally insane.  

 

And just because I've taken two classes, doesn't invalidate my claims.  It's two more classes than most of the people on here have taken.  It doesn't invalidate the statistics, it doesn't invalidate the atrocities that are committed in the third world.  

 

And Al Jazeera isn't a credible source either dear Elly.  They cite Al Jazeera information...and you're telling me Al Jazeera isn't biased at all in this matter?  Why don't you stop the ad hominems yourself and get your head out of the sand.  

 

There is no prejudice here.  However, in Islam, there culture is built on prejudice.  Prejudice against women, and gays.  I don't understand why you think this is so inconceivable that this is true.  It is totally mind boggling that you won't let even condemn those beliefs, that you won't condemn the violent acts against freedom that occur everyday in the middle east.  

 

I know this might not be the time and place for a meme, but I'm going to make it one in response to your, bad people are bad people argument.  

 

If you wanna talk ad hominem, someone who's dismissing cited information because of its source, that would be you. As for your "statistics" like those crime rates in Canada and undeniable, impiracle evidence you've totally be citing this whole time. And yeah, I will blame fault on the US for a lot of sheet in the middle east because who do you think is responsible for putting a lot of corrupt governments into power over there? They certainly didn't do it themselves, I'll give you that spoiler warning.

 

The fact of the matter is, your entire argument is a generalization on entire religion for the actions of certain people, ignoring alternative reasons or an entire sea of variables that can be responsible for what's going on. You saw crap happen in a place, like acid throwing, and went "Yeah their culture is evil and their religion is responsible." Yeah, acid throwing is a thing over there, but there's also people working against it. Y'know, like how the US had culturally accepted racism towards black people and we worked against it, like how Canada has treated its aboriginals like sheet and progress is being made in that area.

 

BECAUSE NEWS FLASH: There's sheet in every culture because people are sheet to each other. Stop acting like the US is some golden example and that these people are all corrupt in a culture you've spent hardly any time to actually get to know. Don't try to feed me this double-standard bullshit that their entire culture's evil and responsible, because that's just a gross generalization, and the stuff that prejudice is made of.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I don't. Unlike you ignorant morons I'm not claiming to understand anything about Islam, because I don't. If anything, from my own studies I've come to understand that there's a helluva lot you need to get before you understand their culture, religion, and history. Did I mention the part where I'd actually have my degree in Biblical Studies if not for a few minor things, one of such in part was an honest screw-up on my part? Because the fun fact about studying one near-middle-eastern faith in greater detail is it gives you a pretty dang good idea of what steps you need to take to really unpack a given scripture and, in turn, understand what's going on with a given culture or religion. It's actually fascinating stuff and I really enjoyed those years of studies.

 

More or less, I've come to the understanding that I don't understand and that there's so much I'd need to do before I can really come to good judgment call; not that you really should be generalizing the faith that currently 1.6 billion people practice in, because that would just be plain stupid.

 

Frickin' take the time to know what you're talking about, because nothing of what you or Hyde has spoken of has convinced me you actually know what you're talking about and this isn't just some poorly based prejudice that you're using to excuse naive and ignorant ideals.

 

Before you lecture anyone on ad hom, please read the first line of what you wrote to me.

 

---

 

Hyde made clear his opinion on why he felt Islam was dangerous for the west. Be it right or wrong, but your own standards, you'd have no right to contest the claim since people who don't know about the religion shouldn't comment about it right?

 

I haven't really been involved in this discussion.I, one, made the OP. Two cited USC explaining how the POTUS CAN keep the non-resident Muslims out. And three mentioned Assad (a man who does know the culture well, but arguably might be bias)

 

I didn't really get into merits, merely the legality. I'm glad you're enjoying your studies and such, but that all really has nothing to do with my question, or for that matter, your answer. If you don't know, by your standards, you shouldn't comment :)

[VCR_CAT]

Before you lecture anyone on ad hom, please read the first line of what you wrote to me.

 

It helps if you actually read my posts, then you'd know ad hom isn't actually insults.

 

 

Hyde made clear his opinion on why he felt Islam was dangerous for the west. Be it right or wrong, but your own standards, you'd have no right to contest the claim since people who don't know about the religion shouldn't comment about it right?

 

You mean to call you guys out on your ignorance? Why are you posting here, then?

 

 

 

I didn't really get into merits, merely the legality. I'm glad you're enjoying your studies and such, but that all really has nothing to do with my question, or for that matter, your answer. If you don't know, by your standards, you shouldn't comment :)

 

If you actually read my posts, you'd understand why.

 

Also, then why are you commenting here?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Islam is a great thing. It's an enduring and popular belief system, and provides its adherents with order, security and peace in countries where it's prevalent. It's not as effective in countries where it isn't prevalent, and when Muslims can feel safe in Muslim countries it's all well and good. 

 

Christianity is no less great where it has taken root.

That said, Christians don't belong in Saudi Arabia or much of the Middle East, just as Muslims don't belong in the United States or much of western society. It is strictly prohibited by the tenets of Islam for a Muslim to settle in a non-Muslim country where their faith is threatened. To do so is called at-ta'arrub ba'd al-hijra and is counted as a most major sin. https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/migration-non-muslim-countries

 

This makes sense, as Islam isn't the lay of the land here, and Christianity isn't the lay of the land there. If a Muslim wants to find order, security, and peace in a Christian country (as America is), they are better off converting to Christianity. If a Christian wants to find order, security, and peace in a Muslim country (such as Saudi Arabia), they're better off converting to Islam. If not, then they should not expect order, security and peace. They should expect to be feared and resisted for adhering to traditions and laws that threaten those of their foreign land.

 

Nowadays, many Muslims find themselves in the uncomfortable position of being caught between a rock and a hard place. It's up to them to decide where they will negotiate, where they will flee and where they will fight. I believe those who stay true to their faith will have an easier time of it than those who do not.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It helps if you actually read my posts, then you'd know ad hom isn't actually insults.

 

You mean to call you guys out on your ignorance? Why are you posting here, then?

 

If you actually read my posts, you'd understand why.

 

Also, then why are you commenting here?

I'm afraid I did read your post addressed to me. You replied "I don't."

 

It'd help if you let me answer your question without asking it over and over. Like I said I posted on the legality of a ban or register. I haven't commented on it's merits. It seemed you were telling Hyde not to keep a negative view of Islam based on his "lack" of expertise in the matter. Yet you have a shiny view of Islam when you don't have a deep understanding of it. How do you know you're right?

[a bad post]

Islam is a great thing. It's an enduring and popular belief system, and provides its adherents with order, security and peace in countries where it's prevalent. It's not as effective in countries where it isn't prevalent, and when Muslims can feel safe in Muslim countries it's all well and good. 

 

Christianity is no less great where it has taken root.

That said, Christians don't belong in Saudi Arabia or much of the Middle East, just as Muslims don't belong in the United States or much of western society. It is strictly prohibited by the tenets of Islam for a Muslim to settle in a non-Muslim country where their faith is threatened. To do so is called at-ta'arrub ba'd al-hijra and is counted as a most major sin. https://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-practice-for-muslims-in-the-west-ayatullah-sistani/migration-non-muslim-countries

 

This makes sense, as Islam isn't the lay of the land here, and Christianity isn't the lay of the land there. If a Muslim wants to find order, security, and peace in a Christian country (as America is), they are better off converting to Christianity. If a Christian wants to find order, security, and peace in a Muslim country (such as Saudi Arabia), they're better off converting to Islam. If not, then they should not expect order, security and peace. They should expect to be feared and resisted for adhering to traditions and laws that threaten those of their foreign land.

 

Nowadays, many Muslims find themselves in the uncomfortable position of being caught between a rock and a hard place. It's up to them to decide where they will negotiate, where they will flee and where they will fight. I believe those who stay true to their faith will have an easier time of it than those who do not.

To your point at-ta'rrub b'ad al-hijra I'd argue that there are places in the West that don't threaten the faith of Muslims, but that's really not something we need to argue over.

 

Why should either of those groups feel threatened by settling in either of those places, though? Should both of those groups, or for that matter any religious group, be able to practice in any place in the world without feeling threatened. Saying that's just the way it isn't any way to go deal with the situation, because eventually you'll just turn it into a giant powder keg, and we'll be right back where we started. We should be working towards coexistence, not just ignoring the problem. Neither Christianity nor Islam threaten the laws or traditions of foreign lands, and shouldn't have to expect resistance. 

 

I do agree with the first and last points of your post though.

 

I read all of Elly's articles.  They were opinion pieces with little facts or sources to back them up.  The Wikipedia article is also poorly cited, seeing as how the results of those findings was from polls (relay back to White's statements on how Polls are terrible sources of infomation).  

 

You both are so set on making the US the enemy.  Apologizing for our occupancy in their countries, and tieing that to a correlation in their behaviour, rather than the actual culture of the middle east.  You're going to blame the throwing of acid into a rape victim's face on the occupancy on the West?  That is incredibly naive thinking.  You're going to blame the slaughter of christians, jews, and homosexuals on the West's occupation in the middle east, instead of looking at their culture and holy books?  That is literally insane.  

 

And just because I've taken two classes, doesn't invalidate my claims.  It's two more classes than most of the people on here have taken.  It doesn't invalidate the statistics, it doesn't invalidate the atrocities that are committed in the third world.  

 

And Al Jazeera isn't a credible source either dear Elly.  They cite Al Jazeera information...and you're telling me Al Jazeera isn't biased at all in this matter?  Why don't you stop the ad hominems yourself and get your head out of the sand.  

 

There is no prejudice here.  However, in Islam, there culture is built on prejudice.  Prejudice against women, and gays.  I don't understand why you think this is so inconceivable that this is true.  It is totally mind boggling that you won't let even condemn those beliefs, that you won't condemn the violent acts against freedom that occur everyday in the middle east.  

 

I know this might not be the time and place for a meme, but I'm going to make it one in response to your, bad people are bad people argument.  

 

And you've had no sources besides a Wikipedia article, and a disproven "facts" to back your argument... or right and lol your year of education that made you an expert on the social, and religious situation of the Middle East. You have literally disregarded extremely credible news sources because of your preconceived notions of the matter. If you read even an ounce of history on the area you will find the Europe and the US have a had a huge hand in destabilizing the area. This is not simply the culture of the Middle East, this is the result of years of Western meddling in the area. I make no claims that Islam is without faults, but I do take an issue with your opinion that it's any worse than any other modern religion. Also, don't lecture me on ad hom you ignorant twit, god forbid somebody gets annoyed when you hand wave entire arguments because of muh feelings.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Jesus (or Alluh if you prefer, I gotta be PC) the hipocracy is so thick here

 

Anyway POTUS will have a new EO tomorrow that will make this so much more entertaining 

[VCR_CAT]

I'm afraid I did read your post addressed to me. You replied "I don't."

 

If you did, you would know I used it to explain how I know that understanding Islam isn't as simple as the upper-middle-class loafer googling Koran translations makes it out to be.

 

 

 

It'd help if you let me answer your question without asking it over and over. Like I said I posted on the legality of a ban or register. I haven't commented on it's merits. It seemed you were telling Hyde not to keep a negative view of Islam based on his "lack" of expertise in the matter. Yet you have a shiny view of Islam when you don't have a deep understanding of it. How do you know you're right?

 

How do I know that he's talking out of his ass? Because based off of his ass-backwards "citations" (lack-there-of), his wonderful use of generalizations such as "Because one refugee was a criminal in Canada therefore they are all criminals", and the frequent, frequent, frequent conclusions jumped to. I may not have spent much time with those cultures (although enough to know that the those great vignettes of violence and terrorism that the western media give you don't paint an accurate picture of their culture or history at all) but I know bullshit generalizations when I see 'em.

 

I mean, of course, I haven't actually said what my view on Islam is, have I. But please, keep assuming what my stance is purely because I'm the opposition. Keep showing me that you're actually reading and following along.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you did, you would know I used it to explain how I know that understanding Islam isn't as simple as the upper-middle-class loafer googling Koran translations makes it out to be.

 

 

 

 

How do I know that he's talking out of his ass? Because based off of his ass-backwards "citations" (lack-there-of), his wonderful use of generalizations such as "Because one refugee was a criminal in Canada therefore they are all criminals", and the frequent, frequent, frequent conclusions jumped to. I may not have spent much time with those cultures (although enough to know that the those great vignettes of violence and terrorism that the western media give you don't paint an accurate picture of their culture or history at all) but I know bullshit generalizations when I see 'em.

 

I mean, of course, I haven't actually said what my view on Islam is, have I. But please, keep assuming what my stance is purely because I'm the opposition. Keep showing me that you're actually reading and following along.

If you'd bother to read his posts you'd realize there was more than that. He tried to make the pt that "moderate" Muslims watched and cheered as Daesh types engaged in brutality towards LGB individuals. That's a trend you'll see around the world. Even the "moderates" tend to not be acclimated to what we'd expect in the west as civility.

 

I apologize then. It's logical in hindsight. You don't approve of Islam, so you give someone critical of Islam a partial half-assed reading then proceed to lace out a daily dose of ad hom towards him. It was all a greater plan. Forgive me.

[VCR_CAT]

If you'd bother to read his posts you'd realize there was more than that. He tried to make the pt that "moderate" Muslims watched and cheered as Daesh types engaged in brutality towards LGB individuals. That's a trend you'll see around the world. Even the "moderates" tend to not be acclimated to what we'd expect in the west as civility.

 

How is this not a bullshit generalization

 

 

 

I apologize then. It's logical in hindsight. You don't approve of Islam, so you give someone critical of Islam a partial half-assed reading then proceed to lace out a daily dose of ad hom towards him. It was all a greater plan. Forgive me.

 

Yo protip, it's pretty great when you don't assume a stance that someone doesn't state :)

 

But, since you're incapable of asking in a more polite stance:

 

It's a religion of 1.6 billion people that's no more responsible for committing sheet to other people than anyone else. Yo, if you were actually good at reading into what people post, you'd been able to actually cleverly deduce that my opinion of Islam is that it and its people shouldn't be held to any higher or lower standard than anyone else, because, as I said like three times and YOU KNOW that MIGHT HAVE BEEN a pretty good indicator as to what my stance was. But you know, not really out of character for you to not really read things. Anyways, as I said several times I've said that bad people do bad things to other people; there's bad people everywhere, and you know what's a breeding ground for extremists and rebels? Unstable nations that are unstable from western interventions! Almost like arming all those rebel factions and putting corrupt governments in place in an attempt to gain control of natural resources was a bad idea, huh.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

How is this not a bullshit generalization

 

Yo protip, it's pretty great when you don't assume a stance that someone doesn't state :)

 

But, since you're incapable of asking in a more polite stance:

 

It's a religion of 1.6 billion people that's no more responsible for committing sheet to other people than anyone else. Yo, if you were actually good at reading into what people post, you'd been able to actually cleverly deduce that my opinion of Islam is that it and its people shouldn't be held to any higher or lower standard than anyone else, because, as I said like three times and YOU KNOW that MIGHT HAVE BEEN a pretty good indicator as to what my stance was. But you know, not really out of character for you to not really read things. Anyways, as I said several times I've said that bad people do bad things to other people; there's bad people everywhere, and you know what's a breeding ground for extremists and rebels? Unstable nations that are unstable from western interventions! Almost like arming all those rebel factions and putting corrupt governments in place in an attempt to gain control of natural resources was a bad idea, huh.

It's about as bullshit of a generalization as you putting Islam on the same level as Buddhism and other religion w/ regards to tolerance. Anyway, I'm glad we have the same standard for Islam then. When you point out to me Christians throwing gays over building daily, I'll get on their case too :)

 

Never denied intervention was a problem though. In fact I fully agree and support Isolating the Middle East and other Muslim Majority countries from the civilized world till they get their act together. I'm glad we're on the same page here VCR :)

 

Nobody has invaded Indonesia recently, would you like to watch a crowd spectacle honor killing there? It's convenient to blame the west for all Islam's problems, but it's not accurate or fair.

[VCR_CAT]

It's about as bullshit of a generalization as you putting Islam on the same level as Buddhism and other religion w/ regards to tolerance. Anyway, I'm glad we have the same standard for Islam then. When you point out to me Christians throwing gays over building daily, I'll get on their case too :)

 

Never denied intervention was a problem though. In fact I fully agree and support Isolating the Middle East and other Muslim Majority countries from the civilized world till they get their act together. I'm glad we're on the same page here VCR :)

 

Nobody has invaded Indonesia recently, would you like to watch a crowd spectacle honor killing there? It's convenient to blame the west for all Islam's problems, but it's not accurate or fair.

 

It's cute when you put words in people's mouths because you don't understand what they're saying. You should probably go back to deflecting when someone actually makes a good point; that at least made you look like less of a gigantic moron when your inability to make a good point starts showing.

 

I'll wait until you stop assuming my point, or at least when you start using your head. Being a child and putting words into other people's mouths isn't getting you anywhere, and it definitely isn't giving you the #GOTTEMSMIRITEDUDES moment you're looking for.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

[no meaningful content]

Sorry, it's hard to respond to unhinged and unfocused dribble 

[VCR_CAT]

Sorry, it's hard to respond to unhinged and unfocused dribble 

 

There is content and meaning to my previous posts; something you've never made an effort to really understand. I'll wait until you have actual point to make; otherwise please return to the pointless shitslinging you think is making a point. #GOTTEMBOIS

 

Seriously, unless you have actually a constructive point to make that addresses how you do know what you're talking about, how you do understand that culture and how you're not just making bullshit generalizations on millions of people based on little more than recent news, then do it. Display to me that you have the proper research and knowledge under your belt that your statements regarding Islam and their effect on the west actually mean something. I'll wait for you to actually read past headlines for once and not cite satire as if it's legit.

 

So far all you've done is go "But look, they have bad people in that area so that makes them bad, right?" Wow no sheet, sherlock. So does literally everyone else ever in all of history. Neither you nor "I took two classes so I know what I'm talking about" boy over there have displayed any ounce of understanding to back your prejudiced claims. When I say "Bullshit generalizations", you reek of them. There's absolutely nothing worth taking seriously in any of your statements about "but the Moderates aren't doing whatever" because you don't know that. You're not citing anything, you're not displaying any sort of research of what's going on. Actually, a lot of people in the Middle East ARE fighting against the extremists and abhorrent activities, if you had actually bothered to read any of Elly's links (although I realize expecting you to read anything is a tall order). It's actually funny how much of your rhetoric is based on an ignorance of middle eastern events and how much is based off of what western media provides you within your little bubble of everything that agrees with your presuppositions.

 

Oh I know, you can show us how muslim immigrants are actually a threat. Y'know, like how 9/11 was in 2001 and how the Iraq invasion's already happened and how they've had 16 years to do all them big scary boogie man terrorisms on the precious american turf where everyone is inherently good with such a superior and good-natured culture that doesn't at all display intolerance towards people over gender, skin colour, or religion. By the way, that was sarcasm; I only say this because I don't expect you to be able to pick up on it. As already said, Hyde's claims on refugees having a bad impact on Canada are bullshit considering the hilariously bad logic and lack of any other citations he's employed in showing that, and we've already established many times why the incidents in Europe aren't a result of what you think they are and why there's so much more to what happened.

 

Show your research, mate. Prove to us you know what you're talking about. Otherwise, you might want to quit making yourself look like an idiot with your lil' "I know you are but what I am" semantic jabs. Acting like a child doesn't make you look smart, boyo. Take the time to actually read our posts, read the links that Elly has posted, and give a response. Show to us that you actually took the time to get to understand what's going on there so that you KNOW what you're talking about, or maybe just do us a favor and admit that you don't and stop posting your baseless, controversial crap just because you can't get enough attention in real life.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

There is content and meaning to my previous posts; something you've never made an effort to really understand. I'll wait until you have actual point to make; otherwise please return to the pointless shitslinging you think is making a point. #GOTTEMBOIS

 

Seriously, unless you have actually a constructive point to make that addresses how you do know what you're talking about, how you do understand that culture and how you're not just making bullshit generalizations on millions of people based on little more than recent news, then do it. Display to me that you have the proper research and knowledge under your belt that your statements regarding Islam and their effect on the west actually mean something. I'll wait for you to actually read past headlines for once and not cite satire as if it's legit.

 

So far all you've done is go "But look, they have bad people in that area so that makes them bad, right?" Wow no sheet, sherlock. So does literally everyone else ever in all of history. Neither you nor "I took two classes so I know what I'm talking about" boy over there have displayed any ounce of understanding to back your prejudiced claims. When I say "Bullshit generalizations", you reek of them. There's absolutely nothing worth taking seriously in any of your statements about "but the Moderates aren't doing whatever" because you don't know that. You're not citing anything, you're not displaying any sort of research of what's going on. Actually, a lot of people in the Middle East ARE fighting against the extremists and abhorrent activities, if you had actually bothered to read any of Elly's links (although I realize expecting you to read anything is a tall order). It's actually funny how much of your rhetoric is based on an ignorance of middle eastern events and how much is based off of what western media provides you within your little bubble of everything that agrees with your presuppositions.

 

Oh I know, you can show us how muslim immigrants are actually a threat. Y'know, like how 9/11 was in 2001 and how the Iraq invasion's already happened and how they've had 16 years to do all them big scary boogie man terrorisms on the precious american turf where everyone is inherently good with such a superior and good-natured culture that doesn't at all display intolerance towards people over gender, skin colour, or religion. By the way, that was sarcasm; I only say this because I don't expect you to be able to pick up on it. As already said, Hyde's claims on refugees having a bad impact on Canada are bullshit considering the hilariously bad logic and lack of any other citations he's employed in showing that, and we've already established many times why the incidents in Europe aren't a result of what you think they are and why there's so much more to what happened.

 

Show your research, mate. Prove to us you know what you're talking about. Otherwise, you might want to quit making yourself look like an idiot with your lil' "I know you are but what I am" semantic jabs. Acting like a child doesn't make you look smart, boyo. Take the time to actually read our posts, read the links that Elly has posted, and give a response. Show to us that you actually took the time to get to understand what's going on there so that you KNOW what you're talking about, or maybe just do us a favor and admit that you don't and stop posting your baseless, controversial crap just because you can't get enough attention in real life.

No VCR, I'm asking you to prove they're good people when both Daesh and Assad speak to the contrary and affirm they're putting moles into the refugee stream. I'm not agreeing with you or Hyde here. Nice assumption though. 

 

I'm not citing satire. I'm not citing headlines. I haven't talked about canada. I never said moderates aren't doing anything. And you're becoming increasingly bellicose for no real reason. It's kinda sad you're the one going for personal jabs and cute point yet desperately lay claim to some moral high ground. 

 

If it's a source you want, how about the CIA director saying Daesh is trying to infiltrate via the refugee program

 

The only real claim I've made is that the "moderates" have been bystanders in the face of travesty before. I can't really link that here cause YCM is a kid firendly zone, but you can watch the honor killings occurring from nations like SA to nations like Indonesia 

 

So again, my national security is at risk, why should I take a risk with multiculturalism over integration?

[VCR_CAT]

If it's a source you want, how about the CIA director saying Daesh is trying to infiltrate via the refugee program

 

So again, my national security is at risk, why should I take a risk with multiculturalism over integration?

 

You mean besides any number of alternative policies that allow for more appropriate screening than a false dilemma of "we either do or we don't?" There's plenty of good measures that can be taken that allow refugees to be taken in while offering a minimal risk to national security, and if Canada can do it then frickin' you can too. Besides again, national security is at no great risk; you make it sound like letting in refugees is letting in thousands of terrorists. 

 

Heck, you want proof that there are good people there? What about the tens of thousands of refugees coming through to Canada that integrate and lead peaceful lives in a more stable country now, not causing any problems? Because buddy, if you want proof that there's good people, we've already seen that there are good people, just as there's going to be good people still there.

 

You know what's a great life lesson: People are all capable of the same good and the same atrocities. History has shown time and time again that nationality, religion, skin colour, or w/e has next to nothing to do with what kind of person someone is. Of course, you asking me to prove there's good people only makes it sound like you think there isn't a single good person out there, which you really have absolutely no way of proving that since it can't be true. There's always going to be good people anywhere, just as there's always going to be bad people anywhere. That's people, that's how life and humanity works. The point of the refugee system isn't about "mah multiculturalism", it's about helping innocent civilians out of a warzone so they have a chance to actually live their lives. I know you're a person who cares for the well-being of others because you've made that a point in a variety of different issues; so why is this the case where you think the chance to make a significant difference in thousands of lives should not be taken because of a chance that can be made incredibly minimal for criminal activity can be taken?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

To your point at-ta'rrub b'ad al-hijra I'd argue that there are places in the West that don't threaten the faith of Muslims, but that's really not something we need to argue over.

 

Why should either of those groups feel threatened by settling in either of those places, though? Should both of those groups, or for that matter any religious group, be able to practice in any place in the world without feeling threatened. Saying that's just the way it isn't any way to go deal with the situation, because eventually you'll just turn it into a giant powder keg, and we'll be right back where we started. We should be working towards coexistence, not just ignoring the problem. Neither Christianity nor Islam threaten the laws or traditions of foreign lands, and shouldn't have to expect resistance. 

 

I do agree with the first and last points of your post though.

 

I agree that they should coexist, but not together while they adhere to fundamentally different laws. A powder keg is much more likely to arise from forced reconciliation of their beliefs on a regular basis rather than living separate from one another and harmoniously with their fellow believers. 

 

Some of the western countries most tolerant of Islam may well be on their way to becoming Muslim countries, and that's their prerogative. Should that be expected of the United States? Probably not. 

 

How do I know that he's talking out of his ass? Because based off of his ass-backwards "citations" (lack-there-of), his wonderful use of generalizations such as "Because one refugee was a criminal in Canada therefore they are all criminals", and the frequent, frequent, frequent conclusions jumped to.

 

Of the 2179 words you've posted here you've made a grand total of 0 citations. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, but it makes you look pretty silly if you're going to condemn someone for a lack of citations. 

 

The crux of your argumentation seems to be that Hyde isn't qualified to have the opinion of Islam that he has. Where exactly along the line would a person be sufficiently qualified, then? After a third year of college? After becoming an imam? We've all had years of media exposure to Islam, we've had the time to synthesize information how we will. Nobody here bases their entire opinion of the subject on one or two articles. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You mean besides any number of alternative policies that allow for more appropriate screening than a false dilemma of "we either do or we don't?" There's plenty of good measures that can be taken that allow refugees to be taken in while offering a minimal risk to national security, and if Canada can do it then frickin' you can too. Besides again, national security is at no great risk; you make it sound like letting in refugees is letting in thousands of terrorists. 

 

Heck, you want proof that there are good people there? What about the tens of thousands of refugees coming through to Canada that integrate and lead peaceful lives in a more stable country now, not causing any problems? Because buddy, if you want proof that there's good people, we've already seen that there are good people, just as there's going to be good people still there.

 

You know what's a great life lesson: People are all capable of the same good and the same atrocities. History has shown time and time again that nationality, religion, skin colour, or w/e has next to nothing to do with what kind of person someone is. Of course, you asking me to prove there's good people only makes it sound like you think there isn't a single good person out there, which you really have absolutely no way of proving that since it can't be true. There's always going to be good people anywhere, just as there's always going to be bad people anywhere. That's people, that's how life and humanity works. The point of the refugee system isn't about "mah multiculturalism", it's about helping innocent civilians out of a warzone so they have a chance to actually live their lives. I know you're a person who cares for the well-being of others because you've made that a point in a variety of different issues; so why is this the case where you think the chance to make a significant difference in thousands of lives should not be taken because of a chance that can be made incredibly minimal for criminal activity can be taken?

Building Safe Zones in the ME rather than importing them here seems like a smarter idea. Their culture is pretty at odds with the direction the west is attempting to progress at. I'd be interested to see a poll of Syrian refugee on approval of Gay Marriage or Maternalism.

 

I'm asking you to prove their innocence. I believe life is sacred and that due process needs to be present, but both those are valid if we build middle eastern safe zones (not to mention it'd be a boom to the US economy similar to post-ww2 if we did so). Importing them here by the thousands is a risk, that Nat Sec individuals like the CIA director don't feel are so minimal. I'm glad it's working out for canada, but just as you love to point out Europe is different, canada too is quite different than the US. 

 

A choice between bolstering the US economy and building a new home for the individuals in the Middle East or bringing a stream of them over here when our intelligence officers are affirming the existence of moles

 

[VCR_CAT]

Of the 2179 words you've posted here you've made a grand total of 0 citations. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, but it makes you look pretty silly if you're going to condemn someone for a lack of citations. 

 

The crux of your argumentation seems to be that Hyde isn't qualified to have the opinion of Islam that he has. Where exactly along the line would a person be sufficiently qualified, then? After a third year of college? After becoming an imam? We've all had years of media exposure to Islam, we've had the time to synthesize information how we will. Nobody here bases their entire opinion of the subject on one or two articles. 

 

No, that's a fair criticism. The problem with media exposure in the west is that it only gives you a small window to see a foreign culture. You can't get to know a people just by watching the western news about the foreign affairs in that region. I've said in the media thread that the media is fine so long as you approach with a critical eye; but the problem is we get incidents like Germany where the western consumers of media are going to look at the event and paint broad strokes with the situation without looking into any sort of nuance of what's going on: http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/23967/the-taharrush-connection_xenophobia-islamophobia-a and http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/13007/sexual-violence-in-egypt_myths-and-realities-

 

The problem is, news and media isn't enough to get what a culture is, and there needs to be a benefit of a doubt for those cultures. Remember that people are people, and just as there are abhorrent acts that happen out here in the west with people that speak out against them, there will be people out there that speak out against their own abhorrent acts. When I say the west is no better, I'm attempting to show that despite the crap that we have in our cultures and areas, we still have people that work against those bad parts of our cultures. People are people, and it's the same case over there. We need to remember that western media only offers us a small vignette of the foreign affairs of different countries; by no means does it come close to showing us everything.

 

The issue isn't so much basing an opinion off of a couple articles; the issue is basing a judgment on an entire culture entirely on the news and media that makes its way over here. It's a very small sample to judge a people off of, and by no means should anyone be doing that.

[Resident Fascist]

Building Safe Zones in the ME rather than importing them here seems like a smarter idea. Their culture is pretty at odds with the direction the west is attempting to progress at. I'd be interested to see a poll of Syrian refugee on approval of Gay Marriage or Maternalism.

 

I'm asking you to prove their innocence. I believe life is sacred and that due process needs to be present, but both those are valid if we build middle eastern safe zones (not to mention it'd be a boom to the US economy similar to post-ww2 if we did so). Importing them here by the thousands is a risk, that Nat Sec individuals like the CIA director don't feel are so minimal. I'm glad it's working out for canada, but just as you love to point out Europe is different, canada too is quite different than the US. 

 

A choice between bolstering the US economy and building a new home for the individuals in the Middle East or bringing a stream of them over here when our intelligence officers are affirming the existence of moles

 

 

If that bowl contains thousands, then sure. Pure statistics tell me that I have a pretty decent chance of surviving this encounter. Basically what you're saying is you want the Middle East to come under US occupation because it's full of scurrrry Muslims. It's pretty obvious that the Middle East does not like Western interference in their countries, and we keep doing so. Not being a blatant aggressor in the Middle East us a start for the US, remember who trained and funded those "freedom fighters" back in the 70s? Yeah, that was you. Those "freedom fighters" that went on to start terrorist groups that you're dealing with 40 years later. Most of the "Terrorist Training Camps" you bombed in 2001 were camps that you set up to train "Freedom fighters". Until America stops trying to force her ideology on everyone, I highly doubt that public opinion of her will improve. Are you saying because a percent of Syrian refugees don't agree with Gay Marriage (a subject still very divisive in many parts of the world), they deserve to be left in a war zone that the US helped to create and exasperate?

 

 Remember, the media will only ever report on the bad. It's never "Muslim Man saves lives by [X]", it's always "Muslim terror attack". Part of it has to do with the fact the government actually controls the media, and the government is forever looking for a way to get the citizens on board with bombing random countries for their oil. The conflict(s) in the Middle East have nothing to do with religion, in reality. It's about land (In the case of the Israeli-Palestine conflict), resources (Iraq & Afghanistan) and bargaining for position on a global level.