Transgender

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That's all anyone can ask for, really.

Doesn't change my earlier point. I've always kinda been with POTUS on the bathroom issue, in that I don't care one way or another. My position shift is, I'm willing to support that nationwide if only to keep the trans kids somewhat happy and away from kicking the bucket. I'd personally have no real problem with a trans girl using the same restroom as my daughter irl, but that's always been the case.

 

It's a band-aid on gangrene. It won't fix things in the long run. Trans kids are still a couple hundred times more likely to off themselves relative to the national rate. Guess every little bit matters is all and you can maybe less then sickness, but trans people are still delusional and in desperate need of help.

[Sunshine Jesse]

that actually moves me to care a little less. not to be cruel, but bathrooms are built for those with a specific set of genitals, of yours don't match, then it's simply not your bathroom.

 

we've made it to a point where first world humanity has become to enamored with itself, if chosen bathrooms are this damaging.

That's a problem with society and not transpeople. In this case, it's society that has to change.

[vla1ne]

That's a problem with society and not transpeople. In this case, it's society that has to change.

I understand humans are above the general natural selection cycle, but if the mind of a person, cannot withstand something as simple as being unequipped to use their desired bathroom, then that person, is not going to do well in society at large anyways. it is not societies fault that a person is so weak minded as to kill themselves over an issue this simple. i don't support bullying people, but i also can't support bending every which-way just because somebody is going to commit suicide. there is a point where killing yourself is due to your own weakness, and not the oppression of society, and this is real damn close to it. 

[Delibirb]

I understand humans are above the general natural selection cycle, but if the mind of a person, cannot withstand something as simple as being unequipped to use their desired bathroom, then that person, is not going to do well in society at large anyways. it is not societies fault that a person is so weak minded as to kill themselves over an issue this simple. i don't support bullying people, but i also can't support bending every which-way just because somebody is going to commit suicide. there is a point where killing yourself is due to your own weakness, and not the oppression of society, and this is real damn close to it. 

This doesn't require bending. It requires no bending at all. You just need to sit there, and watch nothing of any import happen, because accepting a trans person and giving them any respect whatsoever as the gender they've requested requires quite literally no effort and does not affect your life in any way at all. This is not a challenging concept. You don't have to like it, just sit there and let it lie.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I understand humans are above the general natural selection cycle, but if the mind of a person, cannot withstand something as simple as being unequipped to use their desired bathroom, then that person, is not going to do well in society at large anyways. it is not societies fault that a person is so weak minded as to kill themselves over an issue this simple. i don't support bullying people, but i also can't support bending every which-way just because somebody is going to commit suicide. there is a point where killing yourself is due to your own weakness, and not the oppression of society, and this is real damn close to it. 

Why stop at bathrooms? Why not go to physical ability and mental capacity next?

 

Drawing a boundary when life is worth or not worth saving is the same disgusting argument abortionists use >_>

 

Even the most pitiful and worthless life is worth saving as we shouldn't destroy what we cannot create again

[Sunshine Jesse]

I understand humans are above the general natural selection cycle, but if the mind of a person, cannot withstand something as simple as being unequipped to use their desired bathroom, then that person, is not going to do well in society at large anyways. it is not societies fault that a person is so weak minded as to kill themselves over an issue this simple. i don't support bullying people, but i also can't support bending every which-way just because somebody is going to commit suicide. there is a point where killing yourself is due to your own weakness, and not the oppression of society, and this is real damn close to it. 

How is refusing to make a simple change to save lives not a form of oppression?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

How is refusing to make a simple change to save lives not a form of oppression?

Playing devils advocate, because it normalizes a problem which might jeopardize more lives

 

A utilitarian argument can be made

[Sunshine Jesse]

I don't agree with the utilitarian argument for anything because it's pretty easy for it to slip into the tyranny of the majority.

[vla1ne]

This doesn't require bending. It requires no bending at all. You just need to sit there, and watch nothing of any import happen, because accepting a trans person and giving them any respect whatsoever as the gender they've requested requires quite literally no effort and does not affect your life in any way at all. This is not a challenging concept. You don't have to like it, just sit there and let it lie.

if a facility, does not wish to accommodate such a rule, then that is the facilities choice, and i don't believe that said place should be forced to, no matter who kills themselves. that is my argument. i'm cool with places making said accommodations, i'm not cool with using suicide as an argument for doing so.

 

 

Why stop at bathrooms? Why not go to physical ability and mental capacity next?

 

Drawing a boundary when life is worth or not worth saving is the same disgusting argument abortionists use >_>

 

Even the most pitiful and worthless life is worth saving as we shouldn't destroy what we cannot create again

it's worth saving if it wants to live, if it wants to die, then that's personal choice.

 

abortion's separate from that. that's the argument of whether life exists at all.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I don't agree with the utilitarian argument for anything because it's pretty easy for it to slip into the tyranny of the majority.

"Something something, if you know nothing is going to save you, you might be more motivated to save yourself"

 

Not saying I agree, but that's pretty much the argument

it's worth saving if it wants to live, if it wants to die, then that's personal choice.

 

abortion's separate from that. that's the argument of whether life exists at all.

Well suicide is a crime too isn't it?

[VCR_CAT]

Well suicide is a crime too isn't it?

 

Only if someone goads another into suicide. Otherwise, what, are they going to arrest a dead person?

[vla1ne]

 

Well suicide is a crime too isn't it?

this is probably going to sound a bit weird, but it's basically a personal crime, a crime commuted against the self, it should not be usable as a threat or action towards a facility, or another person, unless said facility was actively persecuting the suicide victim. just because you (speaking about the company in this sense) don't want to adhere to the motion, you (the company or the person) should not be held responsible for said suicide. you did not go after the person, they went after you, and you did not assault them, you simply said no, and that's not a crime, no matter how many people kill themselves over you saying it. i believe that you (the company or the person) should say yes, but i do not believe that you cannot say no.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Only if someone goads another into suicide. Otherwise, what, are they going to arrest a dead person?

I was under the impression there is criminal penalties if you get caught attempting to commit suicide? 

[vla1ne]

I was under the impression there is criminal penalties if you get caught attempting to commit suicide? 

are there? my sister tried to, but i've ever seen or heard of her being charged with anything. pretty sure it's just for goading, or maybe endangerment of others if your attempt is... flashier.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

are there? my sister tried to, but i've ever seen or heard of her being charged with anything. pretty sure it's just for goading, or maybe endangerment of others if your attempt is... flashier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#United_States

 

"Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide"

 

Not enforced for prevention reason I'd assume

[vla1ne]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation#United_States

 

"Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states had no laws against suicide"

 

 

Not enforced for ethical reasons

according to wiki, it's legal. and assisted suicide has a few green lights.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

according to wiki, it's legal. and assisted suicide has a few green lights.

Yeh well that's the west coast for you

 

"In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992))"

 

It's not as strictly enforced as I was lead to believe though

 

---

 

Interesting legal idea, if you passed a law that the legal guardian or next of kin of a suicide victim would be prosecuted, would that make people think twice...eitherway we're a bit off topic here

[vla1ne]

Yeh well that's the west coast for you

 

"In some U.S. states, suicide is still considered an unwritten "common law crime," as stated in Blackstone's Commentaries. (So held the Virginia Supreme Court in 1992. Wackwitz v. Roy, 418 S.E.2d 861 (Va. 1992))"

 

It's not as strictly enforced as I was lead to believe though

 

---

 

Interesting legal idea, if you passed a law that the legal guardian or next of kin of a suicide victim would be prosecuted, would that make people think twice...eitherway we're a bit off topic here

https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/361631-suicide-thought-prompt/

 

made it its own thread, because suicide's always interesting to discuss. /topic derailment

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The American College of Pediatricians issued a statement this week condemning gender reclassification in children by stating that transgenderism in children amounts to child abuse.

 

“The American College of Pediatricians urges educators and legislators to reject all policies that condition children to accept as normal a life of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex. Facts – not ideology – determine reality.”

 

The policy statement, authored by Johns Hopkins Medical School Psychology Professor Paul McHugh, listed eight arguments on why gender reclassification is harmful.

 

1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of health – not genetic markers of a disorder.

 

2. No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one.

 

3. A person’s belief that he or she is something they are not is, at best, a sign of confused thinking. When an otherwise healthy biological boy believes he is a girl, or an otherwise healthy biological girl believes she is a boy, an objective psychological problem exists that lies in the mind not the body, and it should be treated as such.

 

4. Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous. Reversible or not, puberty-blocking hormones induce a state of disease – the absence of puberty – and inhibit growth and fertility in a previously biologically healthy child.

 

5. According to the DSM-V, as many as 98% of gender confused boys and 88% of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty.

 

6. Children who use puberty blockers to impersonate the opposite sex will require cross-sex hormones in late adolescence. Cross-sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen) are associated with dangerous health risks including but not limited to high blood pressure, blood clots, stroke and cancer.

 

7. Rates of suicide are twenty times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBQT – affirming countries.

 

8. Conditioning children into believing a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful as child abuse.

 

 

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/03/25/american-college-of-pediatrics-reaches-decision-transgenderism-of-children-is-child-abuse-321212

 

Can 7 year olds know they're trans?

[Sunshine Jesse]

Results inconclusive. I lean towards no, but there are cases in which they are and know it.

 

I have issues with some of the arguments made, though.

 

It's weird seeing someone argue point 2 and point 1 and 3 simultaneously. If point 2 is true, then point 3 is incorrect by definition.

 

Point 6 is bunk because removal of the hormone-inducing sex organs significantly lowers the risk.

 

Point 7 is a misinterpretation of the data.

 

Point 8 is circular reasoning and assumes the premise is correct.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Results inconclusive. I lean towards no, but there are cases in which they are and know it.

 

I have issues with some of the arguments made, though.

 

It's weird seeing someone argue point 2 and point 1 and 3 simultaneously. If point 2 is true, then point 3 is incorrect by definition.

Is it though, from what I understood it seemed like 

 

1) xx= female xy= male genetics of sex

2) everyone has a sex at birth, not everyone has a gender

3) we disagree with the idea that society should change sex

 

those three aren't incompatible with each other. Personally disagree with #3, but it's not in contrast w/ 1&2

[Delibirb]

Is it though, from what I understood it seemed like 

 

1) xx= female xy= male genetics of sex

2) everyone has a sex at birth, not everyone has a gender

3) we disagree with the idea that society should change sex

 

those three aren't incompatible with each other. Personally disagree with #3, but it's not in contrast w/ 1&2

Trans people aren't trying to change their sex. They're trying to be accepted as the opposite gender, and there is evidence which Jesse has shared suggesting that both exist and there is a difference.

 

And apparently responsibly supporting your child is now abuse. How about no? Yes there are risks to taking puberty-blockers and further cross-sex hormones, but as long as the parents A: Aren't forcing their child to be trans and/or use these things against their will, and B: are informed, along with the child, of the risks associated with the processes and are deciding as a family, with a physician, what can and should be followed through on and how quickly, then there is no abuse present.

 

Sadly, many trans people don't have the benefit of the second, because their parents abandon them in some capacity. That was the case with a good friend of mine, he had to move in with his grandma because his parents kicked him out the moment he turned 18.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

It's not responsible if it causes the child harm. I'd say it's closer to negligence than abuse, but either way it isn't good parenting to enable their prepubescent child to permanently alter their body through chemicals. We don't allow prepubescent children to drive, smoke, or give sexual consent. Whether the child wants to or not should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed to do such things, let alone bleach their reproductive system forever. 

[Delibirb]

It's not responsible if it causes the child harm. I'd say it's closer to negligence than abuse, but either way it isn't good parenting to enable their prepubescent child to permanently alter their body through chemicals. We don't allow prepubescent children to drive, smoke, or give sexual consent. Whether the child wants to or not should have no bearing on whether they should be allowed to do such things, let alone bleach their reproductive system forever.

Negligence would be breaking point B. As long as everyone is properly informed at every step of every risk and implication, it should be reasonable.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Trans people aren't trying to change their sex. They're trying to be accepted as the opposite gender, and there is evidence which Jesse has shared suggesting that both exist and there is a difference.

 

And apparently responsibly supporting your child is now abuse. How about no? Yes there are risks to taking puberty-blockers and further cross-sex hormones, but as long as the parents A: Aren't forcing their child to be trans and/or use these things against their will, and B: are informed, along with the child, of the risks associated with the processes and are deciding as a family, with a physician, what can and should be followed through on and how quickly, then there is no abuse present.

 

Sadly, many trans people don't have the benefit of the second, because their parents abandon them in some capacity. That was the case with a good friend of mine, he had to move in with his grandma because his parents kicked him out the moment he turned 18.

I did say I disagreed. I think gender is a stupid concept. Ideally I would prefer we live in a society were we don't have organic bodies and can create offspring to our tastes and desires, but we're not there yet