Transgender

[Sunshine Jesse]

avg suicide rate is ~4% and trans Suicide rate is ~40%

 

There's unclear evidence that bullying causes an increase in suicide rate, but definitely nothing backing up a magnitude shift in the rate

Kinda pathetic that these people don't realize correlation doesn't imply causation. They can prattle on about there being a positive association all they want, but that isn't an end all.

 

There are some studies that show bullied children are twice as likely to commit suicide relative to non-bullied kids (these are the high balling ones http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2014/0311/Bullied-children-more-likely-to-consider-or-attempt-suicide-report-says).If we compare that to the US rate of suicide we get 4 and 8 respectively. Even if your study is sound causally. Trans people, even with acceptance, have a much higher suicide rate than cis. I'm sorry Jesse, ignoring reality isn't the solution.

 

There's a clear mental deficiency that you cannot hide with "acceptance," bathrooms, and skirts

I appreciate the tacit concession, unless I misunderstood what you meant.

 

Stop moving goalpost.

"Let's accuse Jesse of doing the same thing I'm doing to her so she can't call me on it"

 

 

k

[Delibirb]

Untreated the mental state of a trans individual is less stable than the avg cis person

The treatment is using the pronouns they request and generally respecting that they would like to be referred to as and treated as if they are that gender, rather than attack them and tell them they're lying to themselves for one reason or another.

 

Weird, isn't it? It's almost like your obsession over the suicide rate solves itself by doing the thing that you don't want to do because of your obsession over the suicide rate+other selfish reasons.

[vla1ne]

The treatment is using the pronouns they request and generally respecting that they would like to be referred to as and treated as if they are that gender, rather than attack them and tell them they're lying to themselves for one reason or another.

 

ignoring the rest, since i don't much care about it at this point, but how exactly does one treat you as if you are a gender? i mean, i can get a gist of what you mean, but at the same time, what exactly is being requested in this scenario apart from being called he or she? how i treat people is very unlikely to be related to gender, and more just what side of the bed or floor i woke up on.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The treatment is using the pronouns they request and generally respecting that they would like to be referred to as and treated as if they are that gender, rather than attack them and tell them they're lying to themselves for one reason or another.

 

Weird, isn't it? It's almost like your obsession over the suicide rate solves itself by doing the thing that you don't want to do because of your obsession over the suicide rate+other selfish reasons.

If you had bothered to read at all you'd have noticed the trans suicide even with acceptance/humoring is still magnitudes higher than the avg.

 

It's almost like you can give them what they want and still they'd not be normal

 

Then again these are people who said their physical body is wrong

I appreciate the tacit concession, unless I misunderstood what you meant."Let's accuse Jesse of doing the same thing I'm doing to her so she can't call me on it"k

Only concession I gave was that trans is actually a mental disorder

 

Claim victory all you want

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Anyone else find it worrying how much faith we place in institutions like the American Psychiatric Association, entrusting them with dictating who's sane and who isn't? How the DSM is revered like the Bible? 

 

http://www.cchr.org/cchr-reports/massive-fraud/introduction.html

 

Rather, as former president of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), Paul Fink, arrogantly admitted: “It is the task of the APA to protect the earning power of psychiatrists.”

 

This is indeed their main objective. 

 

For an institution willing to rewrite its stance on the efficacy of torture for the sake of money/job security, for an institution that has claimed homosexuality to be a mental disorder with all the implications that entails and since reversed its position, for an institution that would rather diagnose quickly and push pills quicker to satisfy their sponsors at the expense of the patients to whom they're sworn to do no harm, for an institution that's failed to do anything but satisfy their sponsors and receive more funding while "mental health problems" climb, for an institution rife with criminal activity that extends beyond fraud, we afford the APA an awful lot of faith.  

 

It is my opinion that transpeople are in conscious rebellion against gender norms and many have suffered dearly as a result. I don't think they're confused or sick, though some do feel helpless and a disproportionate number do kill themselves. This should not come as a surprise, it's hard to fight against deeply ingrained societal norms and there are reasons those norms are in place and reasons they shouldn't be. To be trans has always been difficult, though recently their plight has been facilitated by very influential people -for better or for worse- and I think that has more to do with politics than the makeup of the makeup of transpeople's brains and whether they're sane or not.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

You could maybe put it a bit more civilly. But yeah. "Acceptance" bills out to be telling a depressed person they're normal

[Sunshine Jesse]

Transgenders shouldn't even begin to protest for their own rights. It's bad enough we have feminists and gay parades wandering through cities. I swear I saw a video of a naked girl with a f***ing dick on the street. Then she/he/it started to swing it around. I literally had to hold the vomit back. I had a crippling depression for the next three days. So, basically, what I'm saying is, if you are a transgender that has the need to brag about it and think you deserve special privileges, then please don't.

You seem upset. Do you want a Snicker's bar?

 

 

You could maybe put it a bit more civilly. But yeah. "Acceptance" bills out to be telling a depressed person they're normal

Once again, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness (and psychology in general).

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You seem upset. Do you want a Snicker's bar?

 

 

 

Once again, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness (and psychology in general).

Well economically it's equivalent to subsidizing a defective product.

[Phantom Roxas]

Transgenders shouldn't even begin to protest for their own rights. It's bad enough we have feminists and gay parades wandering through cities. I swear I saw a video of a naked girl with a f***ing dick on the street. Then she/he/it started to swing it around. I literally had to hold the vomit back. I had a crippling depression for the next three days. So, basically, what I'm saying is, if you are a transgender that has the need to brag about it and think you deserve special privileges, then please don't.

 

Comments such as this are not helpful towards either side of a serious debate. Please avoid making further comments like this, as it risks derailing the topic.

 

As for Jesse and Winter, though, both of you may continue as you were.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Think about it this way Jesse, I've been depressed for more than a decade. First tried to commit suicide at 12. There's a very real case you could make that the benefit of keeping me alive, are less than the costs. At which point I'm a utilitarian liability

 

Similar argument can be adopted for trans folk (we're stepping away from the old debate right?)

[Delibirb]

Think about it this way Jesse, I've been depressed for more than a decade. First tried to commit suicide at 12. There's a very real case you could make that the benefit of keeping me alive, are less than the costs. At which point I'm a utilitarian liability

You're also a person and citizen who wants help and therefore deserves it. There should be as few strings as possible on what people we choose to accept, help, and respect.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Once again, you show a fundamental misunderstanding of mental illness (and psychology in general).

 

You seem confident that you have an understanding of mental illness and psychology in general. I have some familiarity with the inside of a mental hospital and my memories there are not fond ones. Please relay what you know. I, for one, could use a lesson.  

[BANZAI!!!!]

Just popping in to remind you guys to keep it civil and stay on topic. Thanks ya.

[Sunshine Jesse]

You seem confident that you have an understanding of mental illness and psychology in general. I have some familiarity with the inside of a mental hospital and my memories there are not fond ones. Please relay what you know. I, for one, could use a lesson.  

I can't make a definitive statement on the matter without finding enough links to write a research paper, so I'm just speaking through anecdote, but I know that the moment I realized that depression wasn't my fault and I wasn't stupid for feeling the way I did, my life got a lot better.

 

Mind, I'm not one of those people who goes "oh no I'm depressed I can't do anything :(" so a firmer approach might be necessary for those people. I can't say for sure without delving into Google search for multiple hours.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Good, speak through personal anecdotes. Don't conflate your anecdotes with psychological understanding though, because psychology is a ridiculous pseudoscience and scam that I can only hope will be laughed at by future generations. You'd be doing a discredit to your anecdotes. 

 

Likewise, I have full respect for those transpeople who have their own personal reasons for choosing to be trans, rather than those who mindlessly hop on the "psychologically born this way" bandwagon and tell themselves and others that there was no other possible way for them because psychology. 

[Sunshine Jesse]

I don't think it's a pseudoscience per se, I just don't think that technology has progressed enough for it to be purely objective.

 

Right now it's kinda like economics in that it's about observed trends over time rather than how the universe actually works, and that it has the potential to be a harder science like biology (or just lumped in with biology in general).

 

But that's another subject for another time.

[epicmemesbro]

I'm on the fence when it comes to the trans restroom debate. Many are arguing that it's a state's right to decide if they want their public schools to accommodate those with gender identity issues. However I'm also seeing people bring it up as a civil rights issue. What are your thoughts on this YCM?

[Sunshine Jesse]

It's a ridiculous distraction from the real issues facing the trans community, on both sides.

 

I believe unisex bathrooms should be the standard, but until then, go in as the gender you currently pass as.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

LGB youth have an increased suicide rate over otherwise as well, but I don't see gay acceptance being called "enabling a delusion".

 

My best guess is because the opposition (in this case) belongs to LGB, so they are more convinced of its legitimacy. Just my two cents.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

LGB youth have an increased suicide rate over otherwise as well, but I don't see gay acceptance being called "enabling a delusion".

My best guess is because the opposition (in this case) belongs to LGB, so they are more convinced of its legitimacy. Just my two cents.

I've already explained why LGB is completely different than than the T debate.

 

You can gaslight my sexuality all you want, but that's doesn't magically make me bias. I've highlighted problems with my folk too, and have been quite vocal in my opposition against the baker debate

I'm on the fence when it comes to the trans restroom debate. Many are arguing that it's a state's right to decide if they want their public schools to accommodate those with gender identity issues. However I'm also seeing people bring it up as a civil rights issue. What are your thoughts on this YCM?

  

It's a ridiculous distraction from the real issues facing the trans community, on both sides.

 

I believe unisex bathrooms should be the standard, but until then, go in as the gender you currently pass as.

Jesse is 100% correct. There are real problems with the trans delusion. But where you piss isn't one of them

[Sunshine Jesse]

Apparently the bathroom issue is bigger than I thought and denial of restroom access results in a staggering 17% increase in rates:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2016.1157998

 

That makes this a lot more complicated of an issue than I initially gave it credit for.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Apparently the bathroom issue is bigger than I thought and denial of restroom access results in a staggering 17% increase in rates:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2016.1157998

 

That makes this a lot more complicated of an issue than I initially gave it credit for.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel. It's hogwash IMO, but I really don't want to see kids killing themselves 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm not sure how I feel anymore

 

It's hard to be pro-life, and be willing to accept a 17% increase in kids offing themselves.

 

It might be one of those things I don't believe, but am willing to bend the knee for the greater good in

[Delibirb]

I'm not sure how I feel anymore

 

It's hard to be pro-life, and be willing to accept a 17% increase in kids offing themselves.

 

It might be one of those things I don't believe, but am willing to bend the knee for the greater good in

That's all anyone can ask for, really.

[vla1ne]

Apparently the bathroom issue is bigger than I thought and denial of restroom access results in a staggering 17% increase in rates:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2016.1157998

 

That makes this a lot more complicated of an issue than I initially gave it credit for.

that actually moves me to care a little less. not to be cruel, but bathrooms are built for those with a specific set of genitals, of yours don't match, then it's simply not your bathroom.

 

we've made it to a point where first world humanity has become to enamored with itself, if chosen bathrooms are this damaging.