Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/20-year-old-norwegian-cat-girl-i-was-born-the-wrong-species?utm_content=bufferb8e2e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=lifesitenews%2Btwitter&utm_campaign=buffer SighOld news, and not taken seriously by anyone advocating for actual transgender recognition. Literally no point in posting the article. Next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Old news, and not taken seriously by anyone advocating for actual transgender recognition. Literally no point in posting the article. Next?GatewayDoesn't matter if you take it srsly. It's validation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 GatewayDoesn't matter if you take it srsly. It's validationIf it isn't taken seriously, no it isn't. You're saying it is because it's an easy target, because it is, because it's decidedly ridiculous and not comparable to the trans community in any capacity. Trans people don't think they had a genetic defect and as such are the wrong gender like this childish girl does. They feel uncomfortable with the gender they are and seek to be the other gender. Some-to-many may describe their experience as having the sense of being born wrong, but that is more of a description of the thought process that their dysphoria creates, not their reasoning for having dysphoria. Moreover, it is easier to comply with the humble requests of a woman who wants to be referred to as a man, than that of a woman-child who wants to speak only in meows and purrs, eat cat food, hiss at dogs, and all other manner of nonsensical behaviors for no actual reason. Next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 If it isn't taken seriously, no it isn't. You're saying it is because it's an easy target, because it is, because it's decidedly ridiculous and not comparable to the trans community in any capacity. Trans people don't think they had a genetic defect and as such are the wrong gender like this childish girl does. They feel uncomfortable with the gender they are and seek to be the other gender. Some-to-many may describe their experience as having the sense of being born wrong, but that is more of a description of the thought process that their dysphoria creates, not their reasoning for having dysphoria. Moreover, it is easier to comply with the humble requests of a woman who wants to be referred to as a man, than that of a woman-child who wants to speak only in meows and purrs, eat cat food, hiss at dogs, and all other manner of nonsensical behaviors for no actual reason. Next?10 years back we thought a man wanting to be a woman was ridic too...what if intolerant bigots like you are traumatizing an entire generation of otherkins? Be better. "Next?" https://www.washingtonblade.com/2017/02/20/trump-administration-rescind-obama-era-trans-students-protections/ ^^) I'm actually working on it. I'm about 15% of the way there, this sheet takes time and effort. By "it's okay to be depressed" I mean "it's not your fault and your problems are real." Not "it's okay to stay depressed and never get better." Leftists aren't birds because their sheet doesn't fly in the real world. Feel I should mention that Blair is still male. Just one that looks female and I find attractive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 10 years back we thought a man wanting to be a woman was ridic too...what if intolerant bigots like you are traumatizing an entire generation of otherkins? Be better. No, "we" didn't. And no, I'm not. Otherkins are people who try to use the little progress made on the transgender community's behalf to try to claim ground in a nonexistent area. As has been brought up, with research, there is no actual condition that makes humans believe they are anything other than human. They may want to be a cat or what have you, as a hypothetical or pipe-dream, but they aren't dysphoric about it. People trying to demand to be treated as animals or any other such nonsense are in fact just demanding attention, and in doing so, taking it away from people that actually need and deserve it: the transgender community. If you want to make an otherkin topic because you truly believe they deserve some recognition, go right ahead, but as we're in a transgender topic, and both your constituents and mine agree that they are ridiculous, or at least, not related to the transgender community, there is no reason to continue the discussion here. Your article is news, and should go in a separate topic, as it doesn't relate to the primary topic here, which apparently is whether trans people exist or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just because the research doesn't exist today doesn't mean it won't be out there in the future. If the new standard is such that an individual can cite brain chemistry to request treatment as something they are not, then we have to tolerate every mental delusion/unease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Just because the research doesn't exist today doesn't mean it won't be out there in the future. If the new standard is such that an individual can cite brain chemistry to request treatment as something they are not, then we have to tolerate every mental delusion/unease.So do so in a topic dedicated to those delusions. This is a topic about the transgender community. If you can't debate the validity of the transgender community without trying to incorporate other things into it, that they do not associate with, you are solving nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 The problem is with the transgendered community setting a poor standard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 The problem is with the transgendered community setting a poor standardThey aren't, though. These people are setting a poor standard that then backfires on the trans community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 These folk are celebrating their...oddities instead of getting help becuase of normalization of the transfolk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 These folk are celebrating their...oddities instead of getting help becuase of normalization of the transfolkThat doesn't and shouldn't discredit trans people. You are just trying to find a new direction to justify your unwillingness to be accommodating, and trying to poke holes through obviously desperate avenues that have been addressed. If you're incapable of carrying on with legitimate debate, there's no reason for this topic to exist much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Winter, you've ignored pages upon pages of evidence that you're wrong and refuse to even budge your worldview. You don't even present any counter-evidence of your own. Your only contributions to this thread are potshots, non-sequiters, and moving the goalpost whenever you're proven to have a misunderstanding of the subject at hand. So I will respond in turn. Just funk off already you stubborn, bigoted, piece of human garbage. This a forum for debate, not whatever the funk you're trying to accomplish right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Winter, you've ignored pages upon pages of evidence that you're wrong and refuse to even budge your worldview. You don't even present any counter-evidence of your own. Your only contributions to this thread are potshots, non-sequiters, and moving the goalpost whenever you're proven to have a misunderstanding of the subject at hand. So I will respond in turn. Just funk off already you stubborn, bigoted, piece of human garbage. This a forum for debate, not whatever the funk you're trying to accomplish right now.Vla1ne keeps getting to your links before I can...I don't wanna get repetitive. My world view won't shift much because you're not putting up a good case against it. The extant of your argument is that there might be a biological basis to Transgenderism. Your whole suicide argument is already fault. But fair. Trans people can't help the pre-natal chemical imbalances in their mind. But if you look at the you so eagerly cite, most of them have been done recently. Go back to the 90's and zilch. If we're to give the transfolk the "rights" they demand under the LGBT umbrella, the precedent set would force us to accommodate other individuals who are in much more serious need of mental therapy. The negative externality outweighs the benefit here. I'm not intolerant to people people who hold a different view than myself. I'm perfectly happy to increases insurance premiums to pay for your desired physical changes. But 1) you should be an adult 2) it should be treated as cosmetics 3) It still doesn't reverse your gender for the time being. When we find out how to 3-D print a vagina in the near future, and you get one of those added. Then I'll call you a female. It's insulting to call something what it is not That doesn't and shouldn't discredit trans people. You are just trying to find a new direction to justify your unwillingness to be accommodating, and trying to poke holes through obviously desperate avenues that have been addressed. If you're incapable of carrying on with legitimate debate, there's no reason for this topic to exist much longer. No, I'm not denying a condition exist. I'm merely denying someone magically becomes their preferred gender due to their preference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Vla1ne keeps getting to your links before I can...I don't wanna get repetitive. My world view won't shift much because you're not putting up a good case against it. The extant of your argument is that there might be a biological basis to Transgenderism. Your whole suicide argument is already fault. But fair. Trans people can't help the pre-natal chemical imbalances in their mind. But if you look at the you so eagerly cite, most of them have been done recently. Go back to the 90's and zilch. If we're to give the transfolk the "rights" they demand under the LGBT umbrella, the precedent set would force us to accommodate other individuals who are in much more serious need of mental therapy. The negative externality outweighs the benefit here. I'm not intolerant to people people who hold a different view than myself. I'm perfectly happy to increases insurance premiums to pay for your desired physical changes. But 1) you should be an adult 2) it should be treated as cosmetics 3) It still doesn't reverse your gender for the time being. When we find out how to 3-D print a vagina in the near future, and you get one of those added. Then I'll call you a female. It's insulting to call something what it is not No, I'm not denying a condition exist. I'm merely denying someone magically becomes their preferred gender due to their preference Your arguments are so off the rails and ignorant of what we've been explaining to you, and you continue to use poor argumentative skills (slipper slope, etc.). Your entire argument boils down to "I'll call you whatever I damn well feel like because I don't feel like being marginally accommodating." That is an accurate paraphrase of your position. And as such, there is no reason to continue this debate because you have no ground to stand on and no intention of actually making an argument. Your logic is broken, Winter. Fix it. I'm near the end of my rope listening to you intentionally ignore and antagonize your opposition because you don't feel like properly discussing and listening, only shitting out hyperbolic and uncooperative rhetoric that doesn't even make your own case, let alone discredit anyone else's. That is not a debate. This was not a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Your arguments are so off the rails and ignorant of what we've been explaining to you, and you continue to use poor argumentative skills (slipper slope, etc.). Your entire argument boils down to "I'll call you whatever I damn well feel like because I don't feel like being marginally accommodating." That is an accurate paraphrase of your position. And as such, there is no reason to continue this debate because you have no ground to stand on and no intention of actually making an argument. Your logic is broken, Winter. Fix it. I'm near the end of my rope listening to you intentionally ignore and antagonize your opposition because you don't feel like properly discussing and listening, only shitting out hyperbolic and uncooperative rhetoric that doesn't even make your own case, let alone discredit anyone else's. That is not a debate. This was not a debate.Ok? I guess I'll accept that is YOUR assessment of the matter and I thank you for your evaluation, but I suggest you look at your own house first before lecturing me. It's not accurate, but you're welcome to feel it's accurate if you want. I won't call something what it is not. Given the rather strict definitions of male and female based on genetic distinctions, I do not feel at this time that regardless of the mental condition, that a individual with xy gametes is entitled to be referred to as a xx female. If you would like to discuss how to correct the mental disconnect, I'd be willing to listen. One thing I would like to say, it's not a slippery slope when the argument thread gets validated. People are using the precedent set. Also for such self proclaimed, surely you should know that the slippery slope isn't always a fallacy? "but if evidence of a positive feedback mechanism is found, the slippery slope argument may be an accurate description" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope I hope you find a longer rope in life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 The suicide argument isn't at fault because it's actually been shown in recent studies that mere acceptance by parents (and society in general, but parental support is by far the most important and statistically significant) lowers the rate of suicide attempts by roughly 76%. http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4450977/ There are a lot of other things to take from this study but I don't really trust you to not cherry-pick because not all of it fits the SJW tumblrite narrative, although it's certainly more favorable in that direction than yours. (Just like reality as a whole) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 The suicide argument isn't at fault because it's actually been shown in recent studies that mere acceptance by parents (and society in general, but parental support is by far the most important and statistically significant) lowers the rate of suicide attempts by roughly 76%. http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4450977/ There are a lot of other things to take from this study but I don't really trust you to not cherry-pick because not all of it fits the SJW tumblrite narrative, although it's certainly more favorable in that direction than yours. (Just like reality as a whole)Kinda pathetic that these people don't realize correlation doesn't imply causation. They can prattle on about there being a positive association all they want, but that isn't an end all. There are some studies that show bullied children are twice as likely to commit suicide relative to non-bullied kids (these are the high balling ones http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2014/0311/Bullied-children-more-likely-to-consider-or-attempt-suicide-report-says).If we compare that to the US rate of suicide we get 4 and 8 respectively. Even if your study is sound causally. Trans people, even with acceptance, have a much higher suicide rate than cis. I'm sorry Jesse, ignoring reality isn't the solution. There's a clear mental deficiency that you cannot hide with "acceptance," bathrooms, and skirts I'm actually fine with you using what bathroom you want. But that's not cause you're female, but rather cause society has evolved to be so sexual that most 13-14 year old already know about dick and pussy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Kinda pathetic that these people don't realize correlation doesn't imply causation. They can prattle on about there being a positive association all they want, but that isn't an end all. There are some studies that show bullied children are twice as likely to commit suicide relative to non-bullied kids (these are the high balling ones http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2014/0311/Bullied-children-more-likely-to-consider-or-attempt-suicide-report-says).If we compare that to the US rate of suicide we get 4 and 8 respectively. Even if your study is sound causally. Trans people, even with acceptance, have a much higher suicide rate than cis. I'm sorry Jesse, ignoring reality isn't the solution. There's a clear mental deficiency that you cannot hide with "acceptance," bathrooms, and skirts Really? You accuse me of denying reality yet ignore actual research done on the subject and insert your own conclusions as to what it means? You have no argument. You have no science backing you up. You only have your own bubble of reality, and make thousands of excuses to prevent it from being popped. Come the f*** on. You can't say "I use facts not feelings" and then say this s***. Here are some more statistics for you to ignore. According to this study, the suicide attempt rate of transpeople who have the sufficient support of family and friends is.... 24% (76% reduction of 11.2%)= 3.024% The suicide attempt rate in Greenland is over five times that of the aforementioned trans people. Compared to other statistics, these trans people: Have half the rate of suicide attempts by students in Missouri. (6.3%)source: http://dmh.mo.gov/docs/mentalillness/wedding.pdf Five times the worldwide rate (0.6), but a little under half of the attempt rate for 0-12 students (8%).The suicide rate between female students and transpeople without social support is roughly equal (Trans: 11.2, Female: 10.6), and hispanics have a slightly higher one (11.3%).(this leads me to question the relation between societal expectations and genetics for female suicide rates, but that's an aside) source:https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf Keep in mind that this study was done in Canada, where the suicide rate is actually marginally higher than that of the US (15/100k in Canada to 12/100k in the US), although admittedly, the suicide rate in Ontario (the exact place the study was done) is roughly half that of the national average. The oft-cited 40% study was done with 6456 people whereas the Canadian one was done with 380. The mental deficiency is not as clear as you suggest. The broad conclusion is that there is some significant difference in the lives of transpeople between Ontario, Canada and the US at large, because the oft-cited 40% number is not consistent among all surveyed groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Calm down and leave your feelings out of logical debate please. And Winter, stay on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 To clarify the mental difficency was in response to the disconnect between the body and mind on the desire and correct applicable gender. That aside, yes there are countries with higher sucide rates than the US, but you and I both live in the US so let's focus on that Current US sucide rate is About 13.3 deaths per 100k https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ That's less than 1% trans deaths even with acceptance is magnitudes higher. There are real problems you're ignoring by gaslighting mean Cis folk Also about females, men are more vulnerable actually. 3.5% more likely to kick the bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Doesn't the 'correlation is not causation argument' also dismiss any arguments for Trans surgery and such having a massive suicide rate solely on the virtue of them being trans? You can't have that both ways; You can't go 'Well it's only correlation that suicide rate is lower with acceptance' and then go 'It's causation that the higher trans suicide rate is because they are trans'. I means it's possible that is the legitimate case and that it is coincidence, but you'd be better off looking at all the factors that lead to suicide rates for both trans and cis individuals rather than the raw suicide rate (Because there's bound to be a lot of competing factors). Compare it as much as can be done to historical suicide rates of similar groups and such and such. Not just decide which stastitics are valid and which aren't off the bat. So either give a great reason why you can ignore one but not the other, or don't ignore either of them and draw conclusion based on what both suggest. Which to me would be that maybe the trans suicide rate is so high because finding acceptance is really funking hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Well you can isolate variables tom. If two samples differ on one major independent variable and the dependent variable changes proportional, while still not causation there is a much stronger association between the Indp and dep vars In this case, even with culturally similar and similar sucide rates. Trans people even with acceptance take their lives at rates magnitudes higher than the avg. There's hidden variables people don't want to address. People are more likely to commit sucide when loved ones pull them in opposite directions. Don't you think that conflict internalized would have an impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 But if neither sample cover all possible contributing variables in the first place it's hasty to draw causation from either because you've not consider all significant parameters in the first place. You can cover the same trend, but you won't have accurate results. You are essentially assuming that the only reason these individuals commit suicide is that they are trans, rather than it being a side effect of other possible factors as a result of them being trans. Compare say depression rates between cis and trans, and then compare suicide rates between trans and cis people with depression. See if it's actually increased rates of depression rather than increased suicide rates directly. It would show the same result, but a significantly different causation. Which matters, because if say it was due to a higher depression rate we can help treat that. Hasn't Jessie given studies that show cases where the suicide rate among demographics isn't spilled towards trans and that the trans sucide rate is lower in some demographics than in the general population? That seems to be the sorts of things he is posting, and if it's true it means you are basing on an innaccurate base assumption, which is bad. Because it's arguably leading to confirmation bias. And I agree, there will be s*** that people aren't considering, because I think in general people don't commit suicide because of a single thing, it's a complex mix of s***, and I definately think acceptance plays a huge part of it. Imagine changing who you are funamentally a human being and then those who are meant to love you unconditionally rejecting you? How much strife would that cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Why did you take a single sentence from my whole post and extrapolate six whole sentences based off of it??? The point is that the 40% figure is not consistent. In one of the only other studies done on the matter, trans people had a significantly lower risk factor than that, accepted or not, suggesting that some factor within the United States makes that number much higher than it otherwise would be. The increased risk of suicide by major depression (20x) is significantly higher than the suicide attempt risk associated with integrated, accepted trans people in that study (roughly 5x), and roughly the same as the attempt risk from non-accepted people. Now, I didn't italicize attempt to downplay the number of people who simply attempt it, it's just really goddamn hard to find suicide attempt statistics to compare it with, which would be far more accurate and definitive given this study didn't measure successful suicides (it literally couldn't given the methodology), but the point is that a trans person (who is accepted by society) is significantly better off than people with major depression. source:http://www.emorycaresforyou.emory.edu/resources/suicidestatistics.html Not only that, but another study has shown that trans people who pass (via surgery) have a quality of life FIVE TIMES GREATER than that of those who don't. It's not about suicide rates, but it's definitive in its own right. source:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20461468 You actually do not have a leg to stand on. Almost every study I've seen opposes your view on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Maybe cause I was talking about your 3% figure and not 40%? Stop moving goalpost. Making cosmetic changes on cis people with physical insecurity would lower their SS rate too. Untreated the mental state of a trans individual is less stable than the avg cis person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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