Transgender

[vla1ne]

Yeah I know that's the closed-minded conservative view but that's not the reality of the situation.

how so? chromosomes aren't exactly illusions. mentally, you can think you're a woman or man, but if you've got the tools of the gender, you are that gender. biologically, (as far as physical body goes, aside from those literally born with both sets) trans does not really exist, it's a mental condition, does that mean you deserve less respect? no, but at the same time, if a man believes he's a bird, are you going to just ride along with him? or stop him from trying to fly (or in the third case give him a wing transplant)? unless you're discussing something other than biology? in which case, believe whatever you wish.

[Delibirb]

how so? chromosomes aren't exactly illusions. mentally, you can think you're a woman or man, but if you've got the tools of the gender, you are that gender. biologically, (as far as physical body goes, aside from those literally born with both sets) trans does not really exist, it's a mental condition, does that mean you deserve less respect? no, but at the same time, if a man believes he's a bird, are you going to just ride along with him? or stop him from trying to fly (or in the third case give him a wing transplant)? unless you're discussing something other than biology? in which case, believe whatever you wish.

Your analogies provide nothing for your position. Bringing in other made-up scenarios that we aren't trying to defend doesn't make you more effective at attacking our points. I understand you're trying to draw parallels in an effort to discredit our position, but you continue to ignore the evidence which has been provided - evidence which would make it quite plain that transgender, while yes, entirely in the head, is a real and reasonable condition that cannot be equated to believing one is a bird or wishing one was older or younger than they are. 

 

I'll repeat myself more plainly. Transgender people do not claim to have different chromosomes than they actually have. They recognize that their chromosomes are xx or xy, however they feel, in their mind, that they should not be as such, and so since they cannot actually change their chromosomes, they adjust what they can to better match what they believe is correct, and simply ask that you recognize and respect their request to be treated and referred to as the gender they have selected. This requires no additional effort on the part of anyone, so there really is no logic-based reason to complain.

[vla1ne]

Your analogies provide nothing for your position. Bringing in other made-up scenarios that we aren't trying to defend doesn't make you more effective at attacking our points. I understand you're trying to draw parallels in an effort to discredit our position, but you continue to ignore the evidence which has been provided - evidence which would make it quite plain that transgender, while yes, entirely in the head, is a real and reasonable condition that cannot be equated to believing one is a bird or wishing one was older or younger than they are. 

i was asking a question that held the exact same conditions. i personally don't much care whether it's real or not, i treat people like people no matter what they think they are, but it is legit curiosity that makes me ask, because what passes for evidence to you, does not do it for me. what exactly makes a man who believes they're a bird, or a person that believes they are a 4 year old girl, any different, than a person that believes they're the opposite gender? i'm actually asking with interest. both mentioned scenarios indeed exist, and i am actually asking what exactly would make them any different than the transgender scenario. 

[Sunshine Jesse]

You can't ignore one facet of biology yet claim that another facet is definitive proof of your argument.

 

XX=female and XY=male completely ignores all other research that has been done on the subject. The differences are actual biology. They're not brain chemicals misfiring. They're not people lying to themselves.

 

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-gender-woman.html

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(08)01087-1/abstract

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

 

I've posted this multiple times but people don't f***ing read it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

These are actual biological functions that cause you to perceive yourself as the opposite gender and there's no getting around this fact. There are no biological functions that cause you to perceive yourself as a bird, a tomato, or anything else that isn't human. These biological functions happen no matter what a person tells themselves.

[vla1ne]

You can't ignore one facet of biology yet claim that another facet is definitive proof of your argument.

 

XX=female and XY=male completely ignores all other research that has been done on the subject. The differences are actual biology. They're not brain chemicals misfiring. They're not people lying to themselves.

 

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-gender-woman.html

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(08)01087-1/abstract

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

 

I've posted this multiple times but people don't f***ing read it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

These are actual biological functions that cause you to perceive yourself as the opposite gender and there's no getting around this fact. There are no biological functions that cause you to perceive yourself as a bird, a tomato, or anything else that isn't human. These biological functions happen no matter what a person tells themselves.

read through all before responding, i replied as i went, article by article, and my argument, while the same at the core, narrows down as i read through the articles. the short of it being that my mind remains unchanged, but the long of it being the rest of this reply.

 

 

https://phys.org/news/2013-10-gender-woman.html

this is not an argument, it's essentially saying that because men can be feminine, and women can be masculine, and genders can have different roles in society, that a man can be a woman, and vice versa, that tells me nothing. your link, at least this one, is essentially, "i think, therefore i am" and that does not work, because by those same criteria, shamans, and other fold of the past, who believed they were animals reincarnated, and various other supersticions, would fall right in line with your article. if you self-identify as a bird, then again, what makes you not a bird, if you self identify as a woman, then what makes you not a woman, the list goes on. as far as this article goes, it is not clearing, but muddying the definition. as for the "gender panic" it's because if a definition cannot be specific, then what is the use for said definition? as it stands, again, biology is a solid definition. a person believing they are one thing, does not make them that thing. no matter how they may feel.

 

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

people are indeed made up of different genes, correct, but this again, does nothing for me. you can be ambiguous at birth, but once more, unless your body remains completely ambiguous forever (the two most prominently defining features of men and women being breasts and genitals), then at the end of the day, exactly what are they claiming makes them a woman, if not biological function? on top of that, the article itself is listing off mistakes that lead to changing development, not normal biological effects, but misfires. meaning that it is again, comparable to misfiring in the brain, leading to the birdman point above. further, just because you can carry the cells of our parent or child within you, does not transform your gender, it simply means you can harbor it. the entire article, while indeed interesting, is simply listing off studies in misfires within the human genome. similar to cancer, these misfires are not optimal human functions, but mistakes in the body's code, and while (i'd assume) they're mostly harmless, they don't exactly change the fact that they are not intended function, but biological accidents. the third gender is not as much a gender, as it is a mistake. the human body is extremely complex, and mistakes do not quite a gender make. same as if you grew a third arm. for the final section though, i agree, let those born with both, decide for themselves. i hold that it is still a genetic misfire, but grant that if you possess both, then you are indeed trans. on another note though, if the parents approved, or asked for, that surgery on MC, but turned around and sued, then they're dicks, if they didn't, and the doctors did anyways, then i retract that sentence.

 

if a person does not possess the bodily functions, or organs of a woman, including periods, ovaries, and the ability to give birth (those who cannot give birth are exceptions to the rule, and do not invalidate the claim) then what makes them a woman? i agree that those who possess the (at least partially) functioning genitals and/or organs of both are indeed qualified to be called trans, but that doesn't change the facts, the gender, has long since been determined by the genitals, because the genitals, are the main part of the human body, that are truly different by gender. bone structure, body build, and other things, have no comparative effect to the process of birthing another human being, yes, you can have both male and female genes, but how exactly does that make you a male, unless said male genes actually manifest in a definitive manner? and thus, those with said organs, are quite simply, that gender, because in the case of gender, function over form is the simplest, and most effective definition (in other words, the tools define you).  even assuming that all men and women have some share of male and female genes, we are left with the exact same problem as we started with. if we all can be transgender just from having a few alternate chromosomes, then, what does that do for any gender? in that case, anybody here is likely trans, and everybody here can claim they are, and nothing short of a blood test can prove them otherwise. if your argument is to abolish genders altogether, that would make sense, but to add a third to the pool based solely on the fact that we all have a couple misfires to the opposite sex, doesn't do anything for me.

 

 

 

http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223(08)01087-1/abstract

so essentially, they're isolating the potential causes of transsexualism? that's fine, but isolation does not equal normality (normality here being defined as common functions of the human body compared to widespread mental/physical mutations, and genetic misfires). under that same lens, you can isolate cancer, and use similar studies as your above source. your link does not change or defend the argument, it merely tries to point out the cause, for example, i raise you genetic mutations:https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutationsanddisorders/genemutation and http://www.cancer.net/navigating-cancer-care/cancer-basics/genetics/genetics-cancer, both of which are perfectly natural, and can have both adverse, and beneficial effects on the body, but only one of which is being made to seem like it's more than the simple glitch in the complex program that it is. again, people are people, but this doesn't change much in relation to my question. that question being what makes a man who believes he's a bird, any different than a man who believes he's a woman. both are misfires of a kind, but only one is encouraged, while the other is slowly backed away from.... actually, it does shift the question a bit though, to the question of; what makes a second set of genitals, any different than a man with a third arm?

 

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

your final link again pushes the misfire(well, at this point, it's more misactivation) strain of the argument. the brain has a lower or higher number of neurons, and thus changes your mental state, making you feel/believe that you are one gender, when you are, by common standard, the opposite (solely tackling the mental side of things for this one) this again tells me that there is little difference between a man who thinks he's a child, and a man who thinks he's a woman. their brain has missed a mark, or didn't develop normally, and thus either a manchild or a trans was born. again, trans, even after reading your links, is closer for me, to a genetic accident, than an actual established gender. it's the body and/or mind, failing to develop one side definitively, leading to a person who is mentally trapped, because their body screwed the pooch. under developing one side, and over developing another, creating a dichotomy, in which one believes they are the opposite of what they are. the two strands being A) a genetic mess-up, where the mind misses the proper cell count to match the body, so that the person in question believes that they are the opposite of what they are, or/and B) the body developing an extra set of genitals, which, to me, is no different than my third arm example, both being  incorrect mutations.

 

your links don't do much more than tell me that your body and/or mind messed up, and you are now stuck with the result.

And that is what i mean when i say that your evidence does not do all that much for me. to me, it's simply another way the body can mess up. it's less harmful overall than cancer, and often better structured than the mistake of a third arm, or twins joined at the hip, or somebody missing, or in possession of some other limb/ mental condition at birth, but it is in the exact same category as those nonetheless, the body and mind (physical and mentally) of a trans have simply messed up. the human body is not perfect, and thus, there are times where your body and mind misalign. it is, in effect, less a third gender, than it is the original two being wired incorrectly, and the effects being centered more around the genitalia and neurons, than.the arms and legs. it should be treated as the patient wishes, but said patient should be allowed (if not made to) to grow into full adulthood, before making such a decision, and it should be neither glorified, nor shoved under the rug. if a kid wants to learn about, or exhibits symptoms, then ease them into it, and explain to them why they should wait should they want to undergo any form of surgery, but other than that, there's little more to say about it.

[a bad post]

Second time's the charm!  

 

I believe Gender Dysphoria is an issue discerning mental health, and it should be up to the individual if they want to acknowledge the fact that you identify as a man or woman.  You can identify as a tomato plant, but I'm not going to call you a tomato plant, or use your "preferred pronouns".  It's ridiculous.  

 

I believe Ben Shapiro makes many a good point in that debate.  Sure he isn't empathetic, but facts don't cater to your feelings.  If you were born a man, you are a man.  If you were born a woman, you are a woman.  That is how I see it.  Gender and Biological Sex are the same thing, and no amount of putting a gender suffix/prefix at the beginning or end of a word is going to change that.  

Shapiro's argument was disproven the first time, but again it appears you wish to bury your head in the sand and ignore facts that have been presented to you.

 

Secondly, if you believe that gender dysphoria is a concern of mental health, then by your logic should we begin disrespecting other people with mental health issues. Should it be up to my discretion whether or not I want to fire off fireworks next to the house of soldier who has PTSD from combat? Should it be up to the individual whether or not the fact that they want to present alcohol to a person I know is a recovering alcoholic (alcoholism is an addiction, and addictions are mental illnesses so yes that example is valid if you want to argue that). If the answer to any of these is no, then why in your opinion do you think it should be up to someone's discretion to disrespect someone with gender dysphoria. 

 

Honestly ignoring every factual argument against your point, what does it hurt you to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns? What great inconvenience does that cause to you when someone says "I'd like to be referred to in this manner, could you please respect that?" Does it harm you in some way to do this?

 

Finally to your last point what constitutes being born a woman? What constitutes being born a man? Is it based on genitalia? What of in the case of an intersex person? They are born at times be born with both male and female genitalia or can born with genitalia that don't quite match either the penis or the vagina. If you believe that it is based on hormones intersex individuals can be born with both XX and XY chromosomes. 

how so? chromosomes aren't exactly illusions. mentally, you can think you're a woman or man, but if you've got the tools of the gender, you are that gender. biologically, (as far as physical body goes, aside from those literally born with both sets) trans does not really exist, it's a mental condition, does that mean you deserve less respect? no, but at the same time, if a man believes he's a bird, are you going to just ride along with him? or stop him from trying to fly (or in the third case give him a wing transplant)? unless you're discussing something other than biology? in which case, believe whatever you wish.

Well because chromosomes aren't as simple as XX or XY. Like I said above, intersex isn't as simple as being born with both sets. There is a wide spectrum of cases of people who are intersex, and they don't just fit one cookie cutter mold. To that point why should those people be forced to identify as a man or a woman? Biologically they are not, so why should they have to choose between two sections that don't fit them anyways. If you grow oranges and apples, but then find a lime where are you going to tell that lime to go? A lime is not an orange or an apple so why should it be forced to become one? At the same time though if a person who is intersex chooses to identify as a man or woman should not be able to? I mean by your logic they have both "tools"? And if an intersex person can choose to identify as a man or a woman, when they are technically not one, why is it so outside the realm of possibility for someone who is not intersex to identify as a gender that they were not born as. 

 

Also, I would like to note that you said that trans doesn't exist because it is a mental condition. By that logic do you believe that depression, anxiety, ADHD, and other mental disorders do not exist? 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Also, I would like to note that you said that trans doesn't exist because it is a mental condition. By that logic do you believe that depression, anxiety, ADHD, and other mental disorders do not exist? 

They're not something that we should hold up to society and demand be treated as normal

 

Same with trans, you're clearly real, but that doesn't change the fact you have a debilitating mental illness that needs treatment

The problem is that you have a different definition of delusion than Ben does and you're arguing that he's correct. "Let's not entertain the delusions that transpeople have the wrong gender" is the same thing as "Let's not entertain the delusion that depression can't just be gotten over" and "Let's not entertain the delusion that ADHD people can't just choose to pay attention."

 

All of those are factually wrong. A delusion is a belief held despite evidence to the contrary, and "common sense," or what you and he perceive as "the way things are" isn't evidence to the contrary.

 

We know the brains of these people are f***ed up. How their minds interact with the world is different. They need treatment. They need to be helped. And that help is not trying to convince them that their problems aren't real, or that their problems are their fault.

 

You're either lying, ignorant as to what he's actually saying, or backpedaling because you've been proven factually incorrect and your pride won't let you back down.

Well if you wanna draw comparisons. People treat ADHD and Depression with pills.....

 

I agree with Shaprio that facts don't care about your feelings

[Mr. Hyde]

Shapiro's argument was disproven the first time, but again it appears you wish to bury your head in the sand and ignore facts that have been presented to you.

 

I guess you can continue to say that I'm ignorant because my ideals don't align with yours.  You're doing nothing but discrediting yourself by blinding yourself with emotion.  

 

Secondly, if you believe that gender dysphoria is a concern of mental health, then by your logic should we begin disrespecting other people with mental health issues. Should it be up to my discretion whether or not I want to fire off fireworks next to the house of soldier who has PTSD from combat? Should it be up to the individual whether or not the fact that they want to present alcohol to a person I know is a recovering alcoholic (alcoholism is an addiction, and addictions are mental illnesses so yes that example is valid if you want to argue that). If the answer to any of these is no, then why in your opinion do you think it should be up to someone's discretion to disrespect someone with gender dysphoria. 

 

That's a horrible counterargument.  There is no proof that not calling someone by their prefered pronoun can lead to any harmful side effects.  However, in the case of Alcoholism and PTSD, you're putting the victim into a relapse that could be significantly more harmful to them.  Your strawman arguments are showing though.  

 

Honestly ignoring every factual argument against your point, what does it hurt you to refer to someone by their preferred pronouns? What great inconvenience does that cause to you when someone says "I'd like to be referred to in this manner, could you please respect that?" Does it harm you in some way to do this?

 

Intersex cases are significantly rarer than those of the common "Trans" person.  It's a complicated issue that either the parent's decide in the beginning, or they let the child choose.  In those cases, it's fine because they had no choice in the matter to be born with both sets of Genitalia.  But again, those are exceptional cases that don't happen often.  You saying intersex people count as all trans people is also a terrible case for your argument.  And I'm not going to refer to someone's pronouns because it furthers their descent into what they think is correct.  Stop being childish when you don't get your way.  People disagree, and people can be dicks¹ .  Oh well

 

Also I'd like to point out that I agree with V1aine's entire point about the articles shown.  I was going to bring up the fact that your genes correlating to Gender Dysphoria could be, literally, like a cancer.  Cancer is in your genes as well, but we treat it.  

 

[spoiler=source]

1: me

 

 

[Sunshine Jesse]

snip

Now you're arguing something different entirely. I don't disagree with the idea that children shouldn't be treated for gender dysphoria from a young age. I don't think it's 'normal.' I think it's a genetic "defect" on the level of ADHD and Asperger's. The proper treatment for those is some combination of accommodation of their limitations, medication, and therapy to help guide them through any auxiliary issues that come with their issues.

 

But you said that there's no difference between wanting to be called male instead of female and bird instead of human. Which is wrong. I showed you that.

 

I also find it funking ridiculous that the lot of you backpedal to "Hey, I just don't want kids to go through this sheet, man" immediately after you're proven wrong on it being no different from any other kind of psychosis or delusion.

 

You moderate your argument the moment your more extreme viewpoints are proven wrong and pretend that was your argument all along.

 

Stop that. I'm not stupid. I know the point you're arguing and suddenly changing it the moment you're backed into a corner won't work on me.

 

Also I'd like to point out that I agree with V1aine's entire point about the articles shown.  I was going to bring up the fact that your genes correlating to Gender Dysphoria could be, literally, like a cancer.  Cancer is in your genes as well, but we treat it.  

 

[spoiler=source]

1: me

 

 

Leave it to a self-proclaimed conservative to lack respect and empathy for the problems of your fellow men and women.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

My depression would be so much easier to deal with if everyone accepted it was ok for me to be constantly down and downer for people around me. I'd have had a bullet in my head 5 years ago and things would been so much better off. /s

 

 

Depressed people have a pretty high suicide rate too. It doesn't get better if we're told that there's nothing wrong

Now you're arguing something different entirely. I don't disagree with the idea that children shouldn't be treated for gender dysphoria from a young age. I don't think it's 'normal.' I think it's a genetic "defect" on the level of ADHD and Asperger's. The proper treatment for those is some combination of accommodation of their limitations, medication, and therapy to help guide them through any auxiliary issues that come with their issues.
 
But you said that there's no difference between wanting to be called male instead of female and bird instead of human. Which is wrong. I showed you that.
 
I also find it funking ridiculous that the lot of you backpedal to "Hey, I just don't want kids to go through this sheet, man" immediately after you're proven wrong on it being no different from any other kind of psychosis or delusion.

 
You moderate your argument the moment your more extreme viewpoints are proven wrong and pretend that was your argument all along.
 

Stop that. I'm not stupid. I know the point you're arguing and suddenly changing it the moment you're backed into a corner won't work on me.

 

Leave it to a self-proclaimed conservative to lack respect and empathy for the problems of your fellow men and women.

But some people REALLY feel they're a bird. 20 years ago there wasn't "proof" that trans people existed. What if you're oppressing a whole generation of tranbirders out of your ignorant bigotry?

 

---

 

Real talk though. If all of you looked like Blaire White...there wouldn't be much push back. You all look nothing like what you want people to refer to you as is the issue. Too much reality stands in your way

[Sunshine Jesse]

My depression would be so much easier to deal with if everyone accepted it was ok for me to be constantly down and downer for people around me. I'd have had a bullet in my head 5 years ago and things would been so much better off. /s

 

 

Depressed people have a pretty high suicide rate too. It doesn't get better if we're told that there's nothing wrong

Complete false-equivalency. It's more like telling someone that it's okay to be depressed and that you'll help them through their problems while working towards solving them.

 

But some people REALLY feel they're a bird. 20 years ago there wasn't "proof" that trans people existed. What if you're oppressing a whole generation of tranbirders out of your ignorant bigotry?

Unlike you, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if it's found out there's a brain defect that makes people want to eat bread crumbs off the sidewalk and s*** on my car's windows.

[vla1ne]

Well because chromosomes aren't as simple as XX or XY. Like I said above, intersex isn't as simple as being born with both sets. There is a wide spectrum of cases of people who are intersex, and they don't just fit one cookie cutter mold. To that point why should those people be forced to identify as a man or a woman? Biologically they are not, so why should they have to choose between two sections that don't fit them anyways. If you grow oranges and apples, but then find a lime where are you going to tell that lime to go? A lime is not an orange or an apple so why should it be forced to become one? At the same time though if a person who is intersex chooses to identify as a man or woman should not be able to? I mean by your logic they have both "tools"? And if an intersex person can choose to identify as a man or a woman, when they are technically not one, why is it so outside the realm of possibility for someone who is not intersex to identify as a gender that they were not born as. 

 

Also, I would like to note that you said that trans doesn't exist because it is a mental condition. By that logic do you believe that depression, anxiety, ADHD, and other mental disorders do not exist? 

did i not already say humans are complex? yes, intersex comes in varied sets, but that doesn't change my statement one bit. if they are not, and don't wish to choose, that's on them, sure add a third checkbox to the sheets if you want, if ADHD has it's own section, why not give one to the trans? did you read the entirety of my point though? because your questions address nothing that i've said. your words and my point are on completely different rails, and i'm inclined to believe you glazed over it considering your last line, i am not saying that it does not exist, but that it is not so much a gender, as it is the body malfunctioning, thinking that it is either a gender it is not, the development of an extra genital, or some other malfunction. clearly i acknowledge it's existence both physically and mentally, my point was related to what it is classified as, rather than whether or not it exists. as proven by my statement of it being akin to a third arm. both exist, and by everything that i see, are indeed natural, but even so, remain malfunctions, in other words, i classify it more as mistakes in the body than an actual third gender.

 

 

i did not say it did not exist, i said that what you call trans, is merely your body malfunctioning, no different than a third arm, or ADHD except instead of your third arm, or ADHD it's a second penis, or a penis and vagina. or you believing you are a gender that your body does not match. the luckier ones get the matching set or dual genitals and gender identity, the others get a gender and the opposite identity. it's that simple.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Complete false-equivalency. It's more like telling someone that it's okay to be depressed and that you'll help them through their problems while working towards solving them.

 

Unlike you, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if it's found out there's a brain defect that makes people want to eat bread crumbs off the sidewalk and s*** on my car's windows.

Being an Anti-Trump Protester, ie. a typical leftist.

 

Where's my medal?

 

It's not OK to be depressed. I can't magically become happy. But it sure as hell isn't ok for me to be depressed 

[a bad post]

Also I'd like to point out that I agree with V1aine's entire point about the articles shown.  I was going to bring up the fact that your genes correlating to Gender Dysphoria could be, literally, like a cancer.  Cancer is in your genes as well, but we treat it.  

 

[spoiler=source]

1: me

 

 

So you accuse me of being childish and "blinding myself with emotion" because I disagree with your point. But you are totally in the right by not calling someone by their pronouns because you don't want them to think their correct. Honestly, the irony is astounding.  Also, your justifying people should have deal with people disrespecting them, cause people are dicks? lol, Ok, why don't you tell that to kids being bullied in school.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/26/crucial-study-transgender-children-mental-health-family-support

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-03/tes-sdc030615.php

 

And actually, there is proof showing that respecting people's identities, which includes their pronouns, affords better mental health. It's not a strawman when I have proof to back it up. Also, I never said that intersex people were all trans, who was the strawman now, my friend? 

 

They're not something that we should hold up to society and demand be treated as normal

 

Same with trans, you're clearly real, but that doesn't change the fact you have a debilitating mental illness that needs treatment

Well if you wanna draw comparisons. People treat ADHD and Depression with pills.....

 

I agree with Shaprio that facts don't care about your feelings

To your first point, why shouldn't we ask for the mentally ill to be treated normally? My friend, who is a mild schizophrenic, functions as well as any non-mentally ill person would in society. The more we dispel the stigma associated with mental illness the more people will better off mentally ill people will be. 

 

You don't need feelings when facts are on your side, my dude.

[Mr. Hyde]

 

Leave it to a self-proclaimed conservative to lack respect and empathy for the problems of your fellow men and women.

 

I don't care about your feelings.  You aren't my friend, and you aren't family.  I can have empathy, but I'm not going to empathize with someone who's claiming to be what they are clearly not.  I am not going to indulge in your delusions just to make you feel better about your lifestyle.  I can respect you as a human being, but when you want to start imposing your will and mindset onto me and make everyone who disagrees with you seem like a monster, you have lost my respect.  

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

To your first point, why shouldn't we ask for the mentally ill to be treated normally? My friend, who is a mild schizophrenic, functions as well as any non-mentally ill person would in society. The more we dispel the stigma associated with mental illness the more people will better off mentally ill people will be. 

 

You don't need feelings when facts are on your side, my dude.

Because Trans people don't "functions as well as any non-mentally ill person" ??

 

Neither do depressed people...which is why I have to see my god forsaken therapist twice a week even if I hate it, and constantly swallow nasty pills. I'm not ok. Neither are you. I'm just willing to get help for my problems instead of being like 

 

[Sunshine Jesse]

Real talk though. If all of you looked like Blaire White...there wouldn't be much push back. You all look nothing like what you want people to refer to you as is the issue. Too much reality stands in your way

I'm actually working on it.

 

I'm about 15% of the way there, this sheet takes time and effort.

 

Being an Anti-Trump Protester, ie. a typical leftist.

 

Where's my medal?

 

It's not OK to be depressed.

By "it's okay to be depressed" I mean "it's not your fault and your problems are real." Not "it's okay to stay depressed and never get better."

 

Leftists aren't birds because their sheet doesn't fly in the real world.

[epicmemesbro]

In my opinion, ever since the trans issue has been brought up in our society, I think people have had a tendency to approach this from an incorrect angle. Perhaps the issue can be prioritized from a more urgent standpoint that garners results. In other words, regardless of how gender dysphoria is defined, it is a defect nonetheless, that given enough concrete research could likely be detected, prevented, and perhaps, corrected.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm actually working on it.

 

I'm about 15% of the way there, this sheet takes time and effort.

 

By "it's okay to be depressed" I mean "it's not your fault and your problems are real." Not "it's okay to stay depressed and never get better."

 

Leftists aren't birds because their sheet doesn't fly in the real world.

Well, it is my fault because my brain is in flux, the problems are unfortunately real.

 

You want me to go the extra step and say I'm the same as a non-depressed person. You know where that leads? Back to 11th grade where I had a gun in my mouth

 

Now I'm going to bed, but I want my leftist-bird medal in the morning

[a bad post]

Because Trans people don't "functions as well as any non-mentally ill person"

They do when they're treated like human beings, and allowed to seek treatment for what ails them.

 

did i not already say humans are complex? yes, intersex comes in varied sets, but that doesn't change my statement one bit. if they are not, and don't wish to choose, that's on them, sure add a third checkbox to the sheets if you want, if ADHD has it's own section, why not give one to the trans? did you read the entirety of my point though? because your questions address nothing that i've said. your words and my point are on completely different rails, and i'm inclined to believe you glazed over it considering your last line, i am not saying that it does not exist, but that it is not so much a gender, as it is the body malfunctioning, thinking that it is either a gender it is not, the development of an extra genital, or some other malfunction. clearly i acknowledge it's existence both physically and mentally, my point was related to what it is classified as, rather than whether or not it exists. as proven by my statement of it being akin to a third arm. both exist, and by everything that i see, are indeed natural, but even so, remain malfunctions, in other words, i classify it more as mistakes in the body than an actual third gender.

 

 

i did not say it did not exist, i said that what you call trans, is merely your body malfunctioning, no different than a third arm, or ADHD except instead of your third arm, or ADHD it's a second penis, or a penis and vagina. or you believing you are a gender that your body does not match. the luckier ones get the matching set or dual genitals and gender identity, the others get a gender and the opposite identity. it's that simple.

Your words verbatim were trans does not really exist, it's a mental condition, nothing you said before or after that indicates anything of you were trying to say in this post.

 

I don't care about your feelings.  You aren't my friend, and you aren't family.  I can have empathy, but I'm not going to empathize with someone who's claiming to be what they are clearly not.  I am not going to indulge in your delusions just to make you feel better about your lifestyle.  I can respect you as a human being, but when you want to start imposing your will and mindset onto me and make everyone who disagrees with you seem like a monster, you have lost my respect.  

What makes you think it's a lifestyle. What makes you think that trans people have any choice in the matter of whether or not they are trans. Cause all evidence points towards the fact that they do not.

[vla1ne]

Now you're arguing something different entirely. I don't disagree with the idea that children shouldn't be treated for gender dysphoria from a young age. I don't think it's 'normal.' I think it's a genetic "defect" on the level of ADHD and Asperger's. The proper treatment for those is some combination of accommodation of their limitations, medication, and therapy to help guide them through any auxiliary issues that come with their issues.

 

But you said that there's no difference between wanting to be called male instead of female and bird instead of human. Which is wrong. I showed you that.

 

I also find it f***ing ridiculous that the lot of you backpedal to "Hey, I just don't want kids to go through this s***, man" immediately after you're proven wrong on it being no different from any other kind of psychosis or delusion.

 

You moderate your argument the moment your more extreme viewpoints are proven wrong and pretend that was your argument all along.

 

Stop that. I'm not stupid. I know the point you're arguing and suddenly changing it the moment you're backed into a corner won't work on me.

 

Leave it to a self-proclaimed conservative to lack respect and empathy for the problems of your fellow men and women.

no, i am not. both biologically, and physically, i have classified it as the same thing, a mistake in the body. as i said in that post, my core argument has not changed. we agree on that point i see, so there's nothing there to discuss.

 

here's where you made your mistake, i said they are the same because i consider them both disorders. and while the causes may be different, they are no less defects. you can see where this comes from in my first and last paragraphs of your -snipped- quote.

 

no, i called it a delusion from the start, and have been very consistent. the only reason i added the child bit is because i was providing my thoughts on the subject in alternate ways., i don't see you pointing out my mention of cancer in the same manner, even though both are relevant to the topic at hand.

 

no, i moderate my argument according to the evidence. and in this case, my core argument remains the same, the example i used was simply shifted for accuracy. i still see it as a mental and physical error, i simply changed the example to be more accurate. a birdman and a man with a third arm are both defects, i see no reason to act as if this is a leap, when both are used in appropriate areas.

 

then tell me, what am i arguing? my argument at the start was biological in nature, and my argument at the end, is biological in nature, again, penis=man vagina=woman, and if you've got both, congrats, your're a trans. this has not changed. the only new aspect is the mental one, and even then, what about my argument is not perfectly aligned there?

 

 

you know i'm liberal right? but yeah, in a discussion like this, empathy is a irrelevant. my questions aren't about feelings, apart from misfires creating false ones, or mutations creating dual genitals, leading to insecurity, but in both cases, again, my logic is sound, so what exactly are you claiming here?

that's my bad, thought that was addressed to me

 

 

Your words verbatim were trans does not really exist, it's a mental condition, nothing you said before or after that indicates anything of you were trying to say in this post.

 

 

yes it does. again, did you miss the part where i likened the trans to both cancer and a third arm? for something that i'm apparently claiming doesn't exist, i sure do place it into real life quite a bit. you may be mistaking a claim that it doesn't exist, to me separating the mental and physical aspects.

[Sunshine Jesse]

edit: whoops accidentally double posted instead of edited 

[a bad post]

Because Trans people don't "functions as well as any non-mentally ill person" ??

 

Neither do depressed people...which is why I have to see my god forsaken therapist twice a week even if I hate it, and constantly swallow nasty pills. I'm not ok. Neither are you. I'm just willing to get help for my problems instead of being like 

 

Not sure if this is directed at me personally, BUT I would like to point out that I'm not just sitting here saying this is fine, I'm taking steps to improve my condition. That being said it's not exactly an easy process, and there are plenty of barriers along the way. 

 

Well, it is my fault because my brain is in flux, the problems are unfortunately real.

 

You want me to go the extra step and say I'm the same as a non-depressed person. You know where that leads? Back to 11th grade where I had a gun in my mouth

 

Now I'm going to bed, but I want my leftist-bird medal in the morning

But if you had a choice would you want your brain to be in flux? What choice did you have in the matter at all, for that matter? Why is something that you had not control over your fault? Out of the 7 billion people alive right now 350 million people have depression. That's just one of the many mental illnesses that people can suffer from. 

 

I won't deny that I'm ill. I won't deny that I have challenges because I'm ill. I won't say I'm the same as a non-trans person. You're correct that would just take us back to places that neither of us want to go back to. I would also never suggest that someone not seek treatment for their mental illness. What I mean when I say that we should treat mentally ill people the same as normal people is that say "Hey, you're trans/depressed/have PTSD/anxiety/etc, that's fine. Many people worldwide suffer from these same things, and you don't have hide that/pretend that part of you doesn't exist."

 

I know what I'm saying is hard to understand, and I'm probably not explaining it as well as I could. What I'm trying to say is we should encourage people to seek treatment for their mental illness, but we should also encourage people to not be ashamed of something beyond their control, because treating mentally ill people with that respect, and just with respect in general, will help.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Well, it is my fault because my brain is in flux, the problems are unfortunately real.

 

You want me to go the extra step and say I'm the same as a non-depressed person. You know where that leads? Back to 11th grade where I had a gun in my mouth

It's not your fault if it's something you have no control over.

 

Stop putting words in my mouth. I want you to fix your problems and be a happy, functional adult. I don't want you to feel responsible for something that's caused by neurons in your brain misfiring and causing a feedback loop of misery.

 

Thinking it's all your fault and blaming yourself for nothing working doesn't help solve them. It makes things worse.

 

no, i am not. both biologically, and physically, i have classified it as the same thing, a mistake in the body. as i said in that post, my core argument has not changed. we agree on that point i see, so there's nothing there to discuss.

 

here's where you made your mistake, i said they are the same because i consider them both disorders. and while the causes may be different, they are no less defects. you can see where this comes from in my first and last paragraphs of your -snipped- quote.

 

no, i called it a delusion from the start, and have been very consistent. the only reason i added the child bit is because i was providing my thoughts on the subject in alternate ways., i don't see you pointing out my mention of cancer in the same manner, even though both are relevant to the topic at hand.

 

no, i moderate my argument according to the evidence. and in this case, my core argument remains the same, the example i used was simply shifted for accuracy. i still see it as a mental and physical error, i simply changed the example to be more accurate. a birdman and a man with a third arm are both defects, i see no reason to act as if this is a leap, when both are used in appropriate areas.

 

then tell me, what am i arguing? my argument at the start was biological in nature, and my argument at the end, is biological in nature, again, penis=man vagina=woman, and if you've got both, congrats, your're a trans. this has not changed. the only new aspect is the mental one, and even then, what about my argument is not perfectly aligned there?

 

you know i'm liberal right? but yeah, in a discussion like this, empathy is a irrelevant. my questions aren't about feelings, apart from misfires creating false ones, or mutations creating dual genitals, leading to insecurity, but in both cases, again, my logic is sound, so what exactly are you claiming here?

that's my bad, thought that was addressed to me

I think we might be arguing roughly the same thing at this point and I just find your terminology disagreeable.

 

Calling something a delusion gives the implication that it's not a real problem- that it's tantamount to believing your ass hurts because you were abducted by aliens and probed, or that the universe is actually unironically conspiring against you just because you had a bad day. That's what I take issue with. You're using a word that, to me, is reserved for raving lunatics and people who deny reality because they prefer their own, which is one that isn't backed up by any scientific and empirical evidence. Not people who have emotional imbalances and tremendous insecurities because their brain is programmed incorrectly and it's impossible to look in the mirror and see anything resembling what they are on the inside.

 

I don't care about your feelings.  You aren't my friend, and you aren't family.  I can have empathy, but I'm not going to empathize with someone who's claiming to be what they are clearly not.  I am not going to indulge in your delusions just to make you feel better about your lifestyle.  I can respect you as a human being, but when you want to start imposing your will and mindset onto me and make everyone who disagrees with you seem like a monster, you have lost my respect.

I don't think you're a monster. I think you're insensitive because you refuse to make a simple linguistic accommodation to make others feel better. I think you're ignorant because you reject any nuance towards the issue and prefer to look at things in a way that you view as "common sense" when the research and science suggests otherwise.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/20-year-old-norwegian-cat-girl-i-was-born-the-wrong-species?utm_content=bufferb8e2e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=lifesitenews%2Btwitter&utm_campaign=buffer

 

Sigh