Transgender

[epicmemesbro]

Figured I'd make a new one, didn't want to necrobump the old one. Perhaps we can tackle this topic from a different perspective. Maybe we can talk about the implications of tax-payer funded sex reassignment surgeries? Feel free to discuss any issues pertaining to the topic at hand though.

[a bad post]

why would you do this

 

Oh well, I'm going to only address the two points in the OP. If you mean tax-payer funded that government provided healthcare like the ACA should cover it then yes. If you mean specifically having a fund specifically built into the government that is used exclusively for reassignment then no, cause I can only image the mess that would create. As for adoption, I don't see why not. I mean statistically LGBT couples are more likely to adopt children who are older (who are also often more at risk and tend to be less likely to be adopted). Also, there's no evidence that LGBT couples have any adverse effects on children, but there is evidence to the contrary, so yeah. Why not?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Ik the adoption thing is true for LGB parents mostly (there's some fishy allegations about domestic abuse, but nothing conclusive). Was unaware it was true for T. Can you link me to proof elly?

[vla1ne]

trans people deserve the same rights and privileges as the rest of the people in this country, and i see no good reason to deny them as much. the only objection i can think of, that i have to any trans topic is paying taxes for their change. I'm not paying for somebodies sex change unless it's somebody i know and love, and even then, they'd best bring their best argument for why i should. my stance there is the same as in certain other topics, the government has no real business placing a hand in this kind of topic, especially the same hand that's in the pockets of all other americans. i see no reason for them not to (be allowed to) adopt though, if they can be good parent(s) to a child that has none, why would you prevent them from doing so?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

trans people deserve the same rights and privileges as the rest of the people in this country, and i see no good reason to deny them as much. the only objection i can think of, that i have to any trans topic is paying taxes for their change. I'm not paying for somebodies sex change unless it's somebody i know and love, and even then, they'd best bring their best argument for why i should. my stance there is the same as in certain other topics, the government has no real business placing a hand in this kind of topic, especially the same hand that's in the pockets of all other americans. i see no reason for them not to (be allowed to) adopt though, if they can be good parent(s) to a child that has none, why would you prevent them from doing so?

On this I disagree with you (lacking stats from Elly).

 

1) On paying taxes for their change: How is it any different than singlepayer healthcare? Treat gender dysphoria as an illness, and go form there. Ideally we'd do more research into finding out why the mind is in it's confused state, but some manner of gov funding (either to fix the body or the mind) needs to be in place if we are to protect the most vulnerable of our citizens

 

2) This may be controversial, but I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of someone so gravely out of tune with their own body and state is the right state of mind to look after a dependent. The trans suicide rate is high for a lot of reasons, but it's high all the same. And that's not something productive to have in a parent IMO

[vla1ne]

On this I disagree with you (lacking stats from Elly).

 

1) On paying taxes for their change: How is it any different than singlepayer healthcare? Treat gender dysphoria as an illness, and go form there. Ideally we'd do more research into finding out why the mind is in it's confused state, but some manner of gov funding (either to fix the body or the mind) needs to be in place if we are to protect the most vulnerable of our citizens

 

2) This may be controversial, but I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of someone so gravely out of tune with their own body and state is the right state of mind to look after a dependent. The trans suicide rate is high for a lot of reasons, but it's high all the same. And that's not something productive to have in a parent IMO

so our views are essenially flipped on this one?

 

well to explain the first, similar to abortion, i don't care, so long as it does not affect my own pockets, if government funding can be done in such a manner, then that's fine with me, otherwise i am against it, i see your reasoning though, so i will take some time to rethink the topic.

 

as far as adoption, i support it so long as the person in question has a parent mentality (put children first, guide, but don't steer kids, care for them, but let them grow and develop themselves, ect) if a person is willing to do that, and can afford to support said child financially and as a parental unit, i will support their right to adopt. they aren't complete schizos, so why not chance it? it's not like the kids in question have many other options, so why not give both parties a shot at happiness?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

so our views are essenially flipped on this one?

 

well to explain the first, similar to abortion, i don't care, so long as it does not affect my own pockets, if government funding can be done in such a manner, then that's fine with me, otherwise i am against it, i see your reasoning though, so i will take some time to rethink the topic.

 

as far as adoption, i support it so long as the person in question has a parent mentality (put children first, guide, but don't steer kids, care for them, but let them grow and develop themselves, ect) if a person is willing to do that, and can afford to support said child financially and as a parental unit, i will support their right to adopt. they aren't complete schizos, so why not chance it? it's not like the kids in question have many other options, so why not give both parties a shot at happiness?

1) Not sure what more there is to discuss on #1. Obv disagree with you on abortion, get back to me when you come conclusion on the other part regarding healthcare tho

 

 

2) Trans people are more prone to anxiety and depression 

 

I just don't know if someone with so much inner conflict should be raising impressionable kids when their own life is a struggle. That being said, Elly claims that there is no negative impact, so guess we'll see her side soon

[vla1ne]

1) Not sure what more there is to discuss on #1. Obv disagree with you on abortion, get back to me when you come conclusion on the other part regarding healthcare tho

 

 

2) Trans people are more prone to anxiety and depression 

 

I just don't know if someone with so much inner conflict should be raising impressionable kids when their own life is a struggle. That being said, Elly claims that there is no negative impact, so guess we'll see her side soon

yeah, i'd say i agree, it's worth helping people stay stable, but i'd like to see some form of alternative that isn't consensual torture electrotherapy.

 

from the way that study reads, it sounds like the best solution is to just treat them like regular people, easier said than done as a whole, and seeing as some people are sensitive no matter how you treat them, it's not the end-all solution. but i'd still say it's worth a shot. let them treasure another life, and see if and how that helps both parties.

[a bad post]

Unfortunately, I don't have any actual stats since in terms of research transgender people are nearly non-existent, and is really only in it's most fledging stages. All I can really say is that the people I've met who have trans parents have only ever said positive things about them, and only ever said that they have a good home life. Obviously, this isn't better than having actual statistics, but nothing really exists in that area so, I couldn't tell you either way. 

[Sunshine Jesse]

1) Not sure what more there is to discuss on #1. Obv disagree with you on abortion, get back to me when you come conclusion on the other part regarding healthcare tho

 

 

2) Trans people are more prone to anxiety and depression

 

I just don't know if someone with so much inner conflict should be raising impressionable kids when their own life is a struggle. That being said, Elly claims that there is no negative impact, so guess we'll see her side soon

This is a correlation=\=causation thing because a large portion of the anxiety and depression is born from how society treats us.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

This is a correlation=\=causation thing because a large portion of the anxiety and depression is born from how society treats us.

Doesn't matter in this context. If you're not stable, I'm not comfortable putting kids in your care. My goal is to ensure the best possible life for all Americans, which is why I supported subsidized surgery, but it would be hypocritical for me to then volte face taking a leap of faith with kids lives. Why the anxieties exist isn't relevant to the convo

[Sunshine Jesse]

The point is that a lot of the anxiety and depression would go away if we were treated like actual people and banning us from adopting just makes that worse considering how needlessly discriminatory it is.

[Resident Fascist]

The point is that a lot of the anxiety and depression would go away if we were treated like actual people and banning us from adopting just makes that worse considering how needlessly discriminatory it is.

 

Gonna back this up and say this, so much this. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The point is that a lot of the anxiety and depression would go away if we were treated like actual people and banning us from adopting just makes that worse considering how needlessly discriminatory it is.

Can you prove this? 

 

Plural of Anecdotes=/= data 

[Sunshine Jesse]

So little research on transpeople is done in general but this is the closest kind of thing I could find:

 

http://www.uni.edu/vanworme/articles/gayyouth.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth#Be_proactive_and_understanding

 

It really shouldn't be hard to grasp that treating us as jokes, 'others,' or dangerous is a large part of the reason as to why we're so f***ed up.

 

EDIT: Also try reading your own funking article

 

 

In either case, trans people are often seen by others as non-conforming to a natural or inherited identity and so they are stigmatized; for this reason the National Alliance on Mental Illness suggests trans people are prone to depression and anxiety.

[a bad post]

1) Not sure what more there is to discuss on #1. Obv disagree with you on abortion, get back to me when you come conclusion on the other part regarding healthcare tho

 

 

2) Trans people are more prone to anxiety and depression 

 

I just don't know if someone with so much inner conflict should be raising impressionable kids when their own life is a struggle. That being said, Elly claims that there is no negative impact, so guess we'll see her side soon

Also by this logic military personnel shouldn't be able to adopt either. 

[vla1ne]

I would like to take this moment to remind all participants in this discussion of two things.

 

1) transgender is not normal. it's a deviation of what normally would constitute normal.

 

2) there is little, if anything wrong with the above. deviations from the norm are... well... normal.

 

with that said, please continue as you like.

[Sunshine Jesse]

The problem is that some people use "not normal" as a justification to deny people rights and dehumanize them.

 

Whether or not something is "normal" is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Also by this logic military personnel shouldn't be able to adopt either.

Those with PTSD? I agree

 

 

 

So little research on transpeople is done in general but this is the closest kind of thing I could find:

 

http://www.uni.edu/vanworme/articles/gayyouth.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth#Be_proactive_and_understanding

 

It really shouldn't be hard to grasp that treating us as jokes, 'others,' or dangerous is a large part of the reason as to why we're so f***ed up.

 

EDIT: Also try reading your own funking article

 

 

In either case, trans people are often seen by others as non-conforming to a natural or inherited identity and so they are stigmatized; for this reason the National Alliance on Mental Illness suggests trans people are prone to depression and anxiety.

 

I'd suggest you to look at your "own funking article" too then. The first one is about LGB youth. We're not in disagreement there about how to best handle their needs. Wikipedia pages are not peer reviewed, and can be edited by just anyone. If you're gonna make policy that could impact the life of impressionable children, you're gonna need something better a "first step" as Van Wormer & McKinney (2003) suggests 

 

There's a reason adoption standards are so strict, the parents need to be stable. The thing with trans is there's a fundamental inner conflict within the body that's not comparable to anything the LGB community has to deal with

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/boy-scouts-transgender-children-programs-45155100?cid=social_twitter_abcn

 

Boy Scouts Will Allow Transgender Children Into Programs

 

[BANZAI!!!!]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0

 

Way too badass a clip, but accurate. As an eagle scout myself this makes me happy to see.

[vla1ne]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/boy-scouts-transgender-children-programs-45155100?cid=social_twitter_abcn

 

Boy Scouts Will Allow Transgender Children Into Programs

 

i will say the same thing to this that i sad about the military (to somewhat less strict standards). If they can keep up with the rest of the boys, after becoming boys, then all's fine.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

Ben Shapiro ends the trans debate. Point by point refuting 

[Sunshine Jesse]

He didn't end the debate. He won the debate against low-hanging fruit.

 

He's a right-wing ideologue who lacks basic human empathy. It's no wonder that he thinks that way. And it's no wonder that he could win a debate (which doesn't equate to being right) against someone like that.

[Delibirb]

He didn't end the debate. He won the debate against low-hanging fruit.

 

He's a right-wing ideologue who lacks basic human empathy. It's no wonder that he thinks that way. And it's no wonder that he could win a debate (which doesn't equate to being right) against someone like that.

He also said he wasn't going to change biology to accept someone's subjective viewpoint when that isn't what anyone is asking him to do. Transgender people just want you to treat them as you would anyone else of the gender they prefer, and to have you respect them for that in exchange for their own respect. They don't want to trick you into questioning what it means to have a penis or not to.

 

He adjusts the definition of transgender to fit a shape he can win against. If one can't argue against a point without altering the phrasing of the point, they cannot say they have succeeded.