Halubaris Maphotika Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Interesting arguments made by RazorFist. For me, the wall is needed, and I don't see it as a horrible result for legal immigrants. Let's start our Wall debate by going through what you feel about the validity of such an idea and why you feel that way about it. Should illegal immigrants have the same rights as legals? Should the wall be a fence? Should the wall not exist? Is it racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a bad post Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 The wall is unnecessary. Most of the illegal immigrants in the US are people who have overstayed their visas and aren't yet citizens because our immigration system is sheet. I mean sure people hop the border and sheet, but it's not nearly as common a story as you would think it is. IMO if Trump really wants to fix the illegal immigration "problem" he should start with immigration reform and not building a wall that will put us massively in debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Should be 2k miles long, 50+ feet tall. Have tunnel sensors. And be paid for by border taxes on mexico and remittance on illegals given legal status It would do SO much for for the Rustbelt, HUGE infrastructure poly that would boost national moral Also he promised usThe wall is unnecessary. Most of the illegal immigrants in the US are people who have overstayed their visas and aren't yet citizens because our immigration system is sheet. I mean sure people hop the border and sheet, but it's not nearly as common a story as you would think it is. IMO if Trump really wants to fix the illegal immigration "problem" he should start with immigration reform and not building a wall that will put us massively in debt.Look up the multiplier effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shradow Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I almost feel like it should be built for the memes alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epicmemesbro Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Does anyone think that the war on drugs is connected to illegal immigration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 The wall is unnecessary. Most of the illegal immigrants in the US are people who have overstayed their visas and aren't yet citizens because our immigration system is s***. I mean sure people hop the border and s***, but it's not nearly as common a story as you would think it is. IMO if Trump really wants to fix the illegal immigration "problem" he should start with immigration reform and not building a wall that will put us massively in debt.No, only about 27 to 40% of them are. That's about 7 million people that came here just by border hopping using that 13 million illegals average statistic which is bigger than the whole population of Washington state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Interesting arguments made by RazorFist. While I don't see why those bailing the country would otherwise necessarily bring about a revolution, I do think he's right that the wall could be mutually beneficial to Mexico and America for a reason he didn't mention, namely the Mexican drug traffickers who -after selling drugs to Americans - bring American guns back to Mexico. They are the reason Mexico is what it is. I'm not entirely sure that even the wall could stop them because you'd still have corrupt/bribed border guards, but it would be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vla1ne Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 he answered a question that i've had for years: mexico's in a beautiful area, has more water and resources than i can count on my hands, and has insane levels of tourism. how is it still such a hellhole? i now have some of my answer. also, i love the fact that he believes in mexico so much. close their borders, let them peak, and help them rebuild if they need it. let them undergo the revolution they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a bad post Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 No, only about 27 to 40% of them are. That's about 7 million people that came here just by border hopping using that 13 million illegals average statistic which is bigger than the whole population of Washington state. Dude that video is extremely biased, and so are their sources. A lot of their points also come from opinion. Like the the NASA budgets not being all that big ($18.4 billion dollars in 2011 btw). Or that they don't think that circular flow is "right". It doesn't matter whether it's morally reprehensible or not, the point is it happens. Also, they take several of those points out of context, such as the one about deportation being racist. The stop the clip early before any explanation is even given. I've seen that episode and what Adam says in it is true. The wall's not worth it. Also, the thing they said about illegal immigrants not paying taxes is just straight up not true.http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/oct/02/maria-teresa-kumar/how-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/http://immigrationimpact.com/2016/04/05/everybody-know-undocumented-immigrants-taxes/ Illegal immigrants pay taxes, and don't reap any benefits. Should be 2k miles long, 50+ feet tall. Have tunnel sensors. And be paid for by border taxes on mexico and remittance on illegals given legal status It would do SO much for for the Rustbelt, HUGE infrastructure poly that would boost national moral Also he promised usLook up the multiplier effectI know what the multiplier effect is, and I just don't think the payoffs from the proposed plan will be worth it in the long or short run. https://www.iusb.edu/ugr-journal/static/2000/pdf/ross.pdfhttp://immigrationimpact.com/2016/10/18/will-a-border-wall-work/http://www.nationalmemo.com/an-engineer-explains-why-trumps-wall-is-so-implausible/ Guys, I'm not telling you that immigration reform isn't necessary, it is (though we likely disagree why), but this is just not the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCR_CAT Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Not that it's nearly the main reason, but a border wall is really unlikely to do anything about drug trafficking:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34934574 Well, it'll probably affect the start-up cartels (if that's even a thing) that aren't building these tiny, wooden submarines, but the big guys that need to be taken down are going to keep doing their thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Dude that video is extremely biased, and so are their sources. A lot of their points also come from opinion. Like the the NASA budgets not being all that big ($18.4 billion dollars in 2011 btw). Also, the thing they said about illegal immigrants not paying taxes is just straight up not true.http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2016/oct/02/maria-teresa-kumar/how-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/http://immigrationimpact.com/2016/04/05/everybody-know-undocumented-immigrants-taxes/ Illegal immigrants pay taxes, and don't reap any benefits.Well actually, according to a study by the Center for Immigration Studies, half of illegal immigrants are working "off the books" , and illegal immigrants' children can apply for the WIC program. Also, if they have US-born children they qualify for SSI, TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, and Public housing and a few other word soup programs. Sure many illegals still pay taxes and aren't directly eligible off the bat but there's sort of a gap here. http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-Native-HouseholdPlus the heritage site listed http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/pdf/sr133.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vla1ne Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 deportation being racist makes very little sense as far as illegal immigration goes. what's racist about deporting illegal immigrants? i mean, if they are not here legally, and they don't even have an expired visa as an excuse, then how is it racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a bad post Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Well actually, according to a study by the Center for Immigration Studies, half of illegal immigrants are working "off the books" , and illegal immigrants' children can apply for the WIC program. Also, if they have US-born children they qualify for SSI, TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, and Public housing and a few other word soup programs. Sure many illegals still pay taxes and aren't directly eligible off the bat but there's sort of a gap here. http://cis.org/Welfare-Use-Immigrant-Native-HouseholdPlus the heritage site listed http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/pdf/sr133.pdfThe links aren't working for me, so I can't really answer this point. deportation being racist makes very little sense as far as illegal immigration goes. what's racist about deporting illegal immigrants? i mean, if they are not here legally, and they don't even have an expired visa as an excuse, then how is it racist?I didn't say that deportation is racist, though my wording should've been a little clearer. In the video, Adam discusses briefly the topic of why mass deportation doesn't work. However they stop the clip short, and you don't get to see the reasoning behind it. That's why I said that point takes things out of context. If you watch the full Adam never makes any claim that deportation is racist, and he has actual evidence for why historically mass deportation just doesn't work. So, yeah I wasn't saying it's racist to deport illegal immigrants I'm just saying the point they make (that Adam says it's racist) is taken out of context and is not actually present in the video they're debunking. Sorry about that though, I can see where the confusion would come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vla1ne Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 I didn't say that deportation is racist, though my wording should've been a little clearer. In the video, Adam discusses briefly the topic of why mass deportation doesn't work. However they stop the clip short, and you don't get to see the reasoning behind it. That's why I said that point takes things out of context. If you watch the full Adam never makes any claim that deportation is racist, and he has actual evidence for why historically mass deportation just doesn't work. So, yeah I wasn't saying it's racist to deport illegal immigrants I'm just saying the point they make (that Adam says it's racist) is taken out of context and is not actually present in the video they're debunking. Sorry about that though, I can see where the confusion would come from.mass deportation remains a better option than mass acceptance though. america can only hold so much and so many, this excess altruism is going to do neither mexico, or america any favors. I don't quite agree with razor that deportation and strict borders will incite revolution, but giving people an avenue to run away from the problem, especially one so lucrative as free everything on american backs, hurts both america, honest american citizens, mexico, and honest mexican citizens. if america should be focused on building, deconstructing, or rebuilding any country, it ought to be mexico, our literal neighbor, because the fall of mexico, is slowly bleeding into america, and will be a far larger problem than ISIS could ever hope to be, if allowed to continue as it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine Jesse Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 I think the wall is pointless but I'm also not against it because it'll create thousands of jobs which is vastly more important than how much it'll theoretically cost. It's a ridiculous meme that now somehow holds weight, but the same could be said for Donald Trump ever becoming president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 I think the wall is pointless but I'm also not against it because it'll create thousands of jobs which is vastly more important than how much it'll theoretically cost. It's a ridiculous meme that now somehow holds weight, but the same could be said for Donald Trump ever becoming president.It'll also give him leeway to cut left on immigration w/ say DACA. If there's a 2k mile long wall, 50+ feet tall, that's churning out jobs in multiple industries, the vast majority of Americans won't care that he's not throwing kids over it. The people who will notice, are the hispanic voters he can win over. It's a win win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCR_CAT Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 mass deportation remains a better option than mass acceptance though. america can only hold so much and so many, this excess altruism is going to do neither mexico, or america any favors. I don't quite agree with razor that deportation and strict borders will incite revolution, but giving people an avenue to run away from the problem, especially one so lucrative as free everything on american backs, hurts both america, honest american citizens, mexico, and honest mexican citizens. if america should be focused on building, deconstructing, or rebuilding any country, it ought to be mexico, our literal neighbor, because the fall of mexico, is slowly bleeding into america, and will be a far larger problem than ISIS could ever hope to be, if allowed to continue as it has. Just to be clear, because I agree that a country can only support so many citizens well, would giving the undocumented immigrants already living in America a chance to become proper citizens going to suddenly change how many people are living in the country? My issue with mass deportation is that it's going to significantly damage a lot of lives; they'll be physically uprooted from their homes and thrown back to their home countries with no jobs, and especially if that country is something like Mexico, it's going to cause problems. What I'm saying here is, I don't like the idea of an automatic mass-deportation where anyone that isn't a documented citizen is just tossed out. I'd rather the immigration process be better refined with the opportunity for some immigrants to become proper citizens. Of course, I'm not saying pull a Canada and just outright remove visa requirements for Mexicans to work and/or study in the US, but there should be a system put in for undocumented citizens based on how recently they migrated, what kind of work they're holding up, criminal record, etc. to have an opportunity to become documented citizens. I don't like the idea of semi-arbitrary reasons for why someone can stay and why someone is thrown out and I'd rather as few lives be uprooted because of this, but if something needs to be done I'd like to see steps taken to make it as harmless as an action as they can muster. On the topic of the wall, I don't think it's a good idea. Really, I just don't think it's going to accomplish much; people that are desperate to make it into the states will find a way, and there are malicious people (with drugs) that are looking to profit off the desperate. If anything, all I can see that wall accomplishing is either putting a sizable dent in Mexico's wallet (or really just emptying it out), or putting them in bigger trouble than they already are with the economic bullying. And, yeah the situation in Mexico sucks, but I'm not sure if they really could revolt reliably, and that's because of the drug cartels and gangs. If the working class manages to revolt and takes down the government, then what? They still have the rich and powerful cartels who have already been dicking the police around easily, so what if they decide to step in take power? Does Mexico just devolve into a modern-day mad-max of gang vs. gang and no real police to speak of? Should a foreign power step in and make things right? Would the US's economic bullying actually manage to give them leverage over the Mexican government to do just that and fix things up with as few problems as a messy job like that can take? I don't know, as far as messes go, Mexico is a house with a giant water-balloon filled with liquefied human feces stuck in its narrow halls and the goal is to get it out of the house without any problems, and at this point what should even be done? Anyways, reading this post, it's obvious who on this site is the Canadian, huh :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I'm on board with immigration reform as a concept. But as I see it, and as has already been mentioned by our starchy friend, "The Wall" ignores the problem. Yes, some people are coming in illegally, but the majority of the issue lies in people who are overstaying their legal visits, ie work or school visas. Programs need to be put in place to either allow those people to want and be able to become citizens, or to want to go back home. The former is fairly simple, compared to the latter. The only thing the wall would do would be create a bottleneck for up-and-coming cartels, until they can amass enough control/finances to invest in planes/boats/submarines/etc. Something more involved is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCR_CAT Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I'm on board with immigration reform as a concept. But as I see it, and as has already been mentioned by our starchy friend, "The Wall" ignores the problem. Yes, some people are coming in illegally, but the majority of the issue lies in people who are overstaying their legal visits, ie work or school visas. Programs need to be put in place to either allow those people to want and be able to become citizens, or to want to go back home. The former is fairly simple, compared to the latter. The only thing the wall would do would be create a bottleneck for up-and-coming cartels, until they can amass enough control/finances to invest in planes/boats/submarines/etc. Something more involved is required. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34934574 They already have. "[Now] well over 95% of the drugs are moving on the water via container ships, non-commercial vessels, pleasure boats, sail boats, fishing boats. They also have fast boats which try to outrun our law enforcement assets." Cartels are hella rich, so it really wasn't a hard investment for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34934574 They already have. "[Now] well over 95% of the drugs are moving on the water via container ships, non-commercial vessels, pleasure boats, sail boats, fishing boats. They also have fast boats which try to outrun our law enforcement assets." Cartels are hella rich, so it really wasn't a hard investment for them.Note: I said "up-and-coming" cartels. Meaning ones that don't really exist yet or aren't relevant/influential yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I think the wall is pointless but I'm also not against it because it'll create thousands of jobs which is vastly more important than how much it'll theoretically cost. It's a ridiculous meme that now somehow holds weight, but the same could be said for Donald Trump ever becoming president. I'm on board with immigration reform as a concept. But as I see it, and as has already been mentioned by our starchy friend, "The Wall" ignores the problem. Yes, some people are coming in illegally, but the majority of the issue lies in people who are overstaying their legal visits, ie work or school visas. Programs need to be put in place to either allow those people to want and be able to become citizens, or to want to go back home. The former is fairly simple, compared to the latter. The only thing the wall would do would be create a bottleneck for up-and-coming cartels, until they can amass enough control/finances to invest in planes/boats/submarines/etc. Something more involved is required. Jesse made a valid point too however President Trump is signing an executive order to execute the 2006 border wall bill today. The memage begins https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/us/politics/wall-border-trump.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01/24/us/politics/ap-us-trump-immigration.html Building a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border: Favor 47% Oppose 45% @Politico/@MorningConsult 1/20-22 http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/poll-voters-liked-trumps-inaugural-address-234148 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANZAI!!!! Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 All in all you're just a.... Terrible piece of rhetorical nonsense. A physical wall will not do what they want it to. Its a huge boondoggle designed to appeal to predudices and distract from other more pressing comcerns. Immigration reform should focus on fixing our broken system and streamlining the citizenship process. The fastest way to reduce illegal immigrants is to grant them citizenship and stop making it so difficult to become an american citizen in the first place. Oh, and maybe help our neighbor with their cartel problem and reduce crime rates on both sides of the border. Now influencing the ethnic majority vote in the south, that can't fly. No sir. The whole thing smells rotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Are you denying it would thousands of jobs across multiple industries? What part wont work lol. Anywayyyy remember when the US was focused on bringing the best and brightest here, instead of just trying to be a human importer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANZAI!!!! Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Are you denying it would thousands of jobs across multiple industries? What part wont work lol. Anywayyyy remember when the US was focused on bringing the best and brightest here, instead of just trying to be a human importer? A physical wall will do little to actually keep people out of the country. Its a waste of time and money that our government simply does not have, and anyone who seriously thinks that mexico will foot the bill for our infrastructure needs a reality check. Its not a sensical conservative policy in any sense, and there are other less ridiculous ways to create jobs domestically. And no, i don't. As far as I remember US immigration policies have historically either been racist, overly inclusive, or a strange combination of both. Well vetted is not an adjective i would apply to this country's stance on immigration. Side note: is being inclusive even a bad thing? I'd much rather a growing population than an isolated nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 It's been explained time and again exactly how we would get the funds from Mexico, it's obv not as simple as getting a check from them http://www.weeklystandard.com/former-mexican-secretary-of-foreign-affairs-trump-could-easily-make-mexico-pay-for-the-wall/article/2004471/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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