Conversion Therapy

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Even if they consent to it, there's a clear correlation between conversion therapy and suicide. Those who run conversion camps understand this. They tell the family of people subjected to it this prior to starting. If you know of this correlation and go through it anyway, that arguably constitutes assisted suicide.

 

Ignoring the moral implications of this– which I can't imagine anyone thinking to be morally acceptable unless they believe not being gay is more of a crime than murder– that would put it in the realm of being illegal all on its own.

I believe in Assisted Suicide, so, if they consent to it, I can't find myself opposing it.

[Agro]

I believe in Assisted Suicide, so, if they consent to it, I can't find myself opposing it.

Assisted Suicide that I'm in support of involves someone who is terminally ill and in immense pain.

 

Which is VASTLY different to when the pain the victim is suffering from, that specifically leads to their suicide, is being inflicted by the person assisting in the suicide.

 

But you should have already known that before making your point. :\

[a bad post]

His use of the word "transsexuals" is not inaccurate in the context, nor is it his problem if you find it "extremely offensive".

 

 

http://www.medicaldaily.com/what-difference-between-transsexual-and-transgender-facebooks-new-version-its-complicated-271389

First of all the term is inaccurate, and outdated because sex refers to chromosomes, which cannot be changed, and not only to internal and external sex organs. Secondly, it implies a focus on genital appearances and surgery, which is not quite accurate to the trans experience as many transgendered people do not undergo surgery. Thirdly the term was invented by doctors who acted as "gatekeepers" to determine who was trans and who wasn't based on a set of arbitrary and silly standards. An example of this would be if a trans woman showed up to the doctor's office wearing pants she would be deemed no feminine enough, and denied care. The definition you posted is outdated because sex cannot be changed. Medical terminology changes all the time, just like we don't call people retards in the doctors' office anymore. 

 

Actually they do.

 

http://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/menopause.aspx

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/

 

And Transsexuals is the correct terms regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.

I can sheet out links like a dumbass too, like did you even read either of the things you posted. First, off the first makes no mention of orientation, so I don't know what purpose you posted that for. 

 

I do want to thank you for posting the second link, though. It really only helps my point. First of the second link states that the fact that hormones will affect sexual orientation is only a theory, which means it has yet to be proven. It even says as much in the title and goes so far as to say that it is likely impossible to fully prove what they are saying. Second of all the article states that a gonadectomy (basically a reassignment surgery) would not alter orientation. Thirdly it states that adult treatment with androgens and estrogens (hormone therapy) would also not affect orientation. 

 

The study says the only claim it can make is at best larger concentrations of testosterone or estrogen at birth can be the cause of homosexuality, which was not what I was talking about. Every case this article makes, in fact, is related to things that occur at or before birth and makes no mention of transgender people. Also it makes no mention of feminine or masculine behaviors because they're just that behaviors and behaviors are learned.

It's almost as if I was using the right terminology and people conflated muh feelings with fact one again

 

Funny how that works

 

If they consent to it, you have no real right to stop them is the idea

As I stated above it's just about "muh feelings" what you said was factually incorrect. Thanks for the straw man though ♡

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Assisted Suicide that I'm in support of involves someone who is terminally ill and in immense pain.

 

Which is VASTLY different to when the pain the victim is suffering from, that specifically leads to their suicide, is being inflicted by the person assisting in the suicide.

 

But you should have already known that before making your point. :\

You have every right to disagree, but I believe that, if they consent, it's fine.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

First of all the term is inaccurate, and outdated because sex refers to chromosomes, which cannot be changed, and not only to internal and external sex organs. Secondly, it implies a focus on genital appearances and surgery, which is not quite accurate to the trans experience as many transgendered people do not undergo surgery. Thirdly the term was invented by doctors who acted as "gatekeepers" to determine who was trans and who wasn't based on a set of arbitrary and silly standards. An example of this would be if a trans woman showed up to the doctor's office wearing pants she would be deemed no feminine enough, and denied care. The definition you posted is outdated because sex cannot be changed. Medical terminology changes all the time, just like we don't call people retards in the doctors' office anymore. 

 

I can sheet out links like a dumbass too, like did you even read either of the things you posted. First, off the first makes no mention of orientation, so I don't know what purpose you posted that for. 

 

I do want to thank you for posting the second link, though. It really only helps my point. First of the second link states that the fact that hormones will affect sexual orientation is only a theory, which means it has yet to be proven. It even says as much in the title and goes so far as to say that it is likely impossible to fully prove what they are saying. Second of all the article states that a gonadectomy (basically a reassignment surgery) would not alter orientation. Thirdly it states that adult treatment with androgens and estrogens (hormone therapy) would also not affect orientation. 

 

The study says the only claim it can make is at best larger concentrations of testosterone or estrogen at birth can be the cause of homosexuality, which was not what I was talking about. Every case this article makes, in fact, is related to things that occur at or before birth and makes no mention of transgender people. Also it makes no mention of feminine or masculine behaviors because they're just that behaviors and behaviors are learned.

As I stated above it's just about "muh feelings" what you said was factually incorrect. Thanks for the straw man though ♡

Oh I did read them. While you claim it can't be proven, it is also very clear by that argument that you cannot disprove such a claim either.

 

Also

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transsexual

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transsexual

 

You can claim it is as outdated as you want. Every major institution disagrees with you.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Oh I did read them. I just find it funny how, if the links are so disproven, that you get so mad at them. While you claim it can't be proven, it is also very clear by that argument that you cannot disprove such a claim either.

God forbid people get mad at other people being wrong.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Except I have not been proven wrong. None of my arguments have.

 

The theory cannot be disproven, and Transsexuals is acknowledged as a proper term by major institutions.

[Makο]

God forbid people get mad at other people being wrong.

Being mad at someone for being wrong seems a bit foolish, doesn't it? It's impossible to divine whether or not someone is being disingenuous when posting incorrect information, or they actually genuinely believe the incorrect information. You come across as a bit of a twat for just "getting mad" at them for it. Whether or not the related information is incorrect aside, due to the fact that I'm skimming the topic.

 

Come to think of it, getting mad in a debate at all is a foolhardy notion. Let's keep things civil at all times, folks.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Even if they consent to it, there's a clear correlation between conversion therapy and suicide. Those who run conversion camps understand this. They tell the family of people subjected to it this prior to starting. If you know of this correlation and go through it anyway, that arguably constitutes assisted suicide.

 

Ignoring the moral implications of this– which I can't imagine anyone thinking to be morally acceptable unless they believe not being gay is more of a crime than murder– that would put it in the realm of being illegal all on its own.

Correlation does not imply causation?

 

The selective reading is sad. I said there should be a selective level of harmones to get to the transition, not that we know that amount now

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation

 

"Prenatal hormones may be seen as the primary determinant of adult sexual orientation, or a co-factor with genes, biological factors and/or environmental and social conditions"

 

I think I've already expressed my feelings about "trans" people who don't get or endeavor to get conversations. Illegitimate. But that's a rabbit hole for a different topic

[a bad post]

Except I have not been proven wrong. None of my arguments have.

 

The theory cannot be disproven, and Transsexuals is acknowledged as a proper term by major institutions.

you... haven't.... been... proven.... right.... either.... 

 

 

Correlation does not imply causation?

 

The selective reading is sad. I said there should be a selective level of harmones to get to the transition, not that we know that amount now

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation

 

"Prenatal hormones may be seen as the primary determinant of adult sexual orientation, or a co-factor with genes, biological factors and/or environmental and social conditions"

Yes, that is prenatal, which would be before a child was born, and before you would know that child is homosexual or not. Also like I said when I replied to Halu that is just a theory, and not proven. It's not selective reading. You suggested that hormones could be used to alter sexual orientation, and I told you were wrong because that's not how hormones work.

[Delibirb]

When an entire community has requested a different term to be referred to as, and given reasonable arguments for the inadequacy of the original term, it's nothing short of courteous to simply change the term you use. It'll certainly put you in a better position to understand and work on their problems if you respect them, even in ways you may consider insignificant. I've yet to meet a doctor who, on the subject, used the term transgender over transsexual, because as I understand it, much of the medical community recognizes that meeting people halfway is a pretty good first step in treatment of orientation dysphoria and associated negative mental states, ie depression and suicidal ideation. Why can't you?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

When an entire community has requested a different term to be referred to as, and given reasonable arguments for the inadequacy of the original term, it's nothing short of courteous to simply change the term you use. It'll certainly put you in a better position to understand and work on their problems if you respect them, even in ways you may consider insignificant. I've yet to meet a doctor who, on the subject, used the term transgender over transsexual, because as I understand it, much of the medical community recognizes that meeting people halfway is a pretty good first step in treatment of orientation dysphoria and associated negative mental states, ie depression and suicidal ideation. Why can't you?

I'm curious, how is me doing what they want meeting then "half-way;" it seems more like meeting them all the way? What half am I getting. I'll call them what they want cause I frankly don't care, but it's disengeous to say that would be half-way

[Delibirb]

I'm curious, how is me doing what they want meeting then "half-way;" it seems more like meeting them all the way? What half am I getting. I'll call them what they want cause I frankly don't care, but it's disengeous to say that would be half-way

And you wonder why people are always on the opposite side of the argument as you.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And you wonder why people are always on the opposite side of the argument as you.

You did not answer the question? And I don't really. There are people like Roxas and Wahr who have fundamentally different world views, it's logical they're on the opposite side more oft then not. 

 

Shall I repeat the question?

[ihop]

If your stance is "I will call a group of people what I want on a public message board despite them saying it's offensive because x and y" you're really not in a position to be met halfway.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If your stance is "I will call a group of people what I want on a public message board despite them saying it's offensive because x and y" you're really not in a position to be met halfway.

 

 I'll call them what they want cause I frankly don't care, but it's disengeous to say that would be half-way

Sometime I question if you're willing to read Hoppy.

 

However, Elly throwing a hissyfit over a word I used once is exactly the sorta behavior that gets the LGBT community laughed at. Besides, this all besides the point, Kano was the one who brought the whole meet halfway into this

[a bad post]

Sometime I question if you're willing to read Hoppy.

 

However, Elly throwing a hissyfit over a word I used once is exactly the sorta behavior that gets the LGBT community laughed at. Besides, this all besides the point, Kano was the one who brought the whole meet halfway into this

It's not once you ass, you literally say that everytime you discuss transgender people.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's not once you ass, you literally say that everytime you discuss transgender people.

Calling you transsexuals? Please link

 

I did not say ANYTHING negative about the T community here. I merely described a prevalent scientific theory on why LGB occur, and suggested a treatment that works for T people to some degree might hold an answer to LGB people who want out (why someone would is beyond me)

 

You flipped out, and homed in on one word I misswrote, and Jack rightfully took you to the woodshed over the PC bullshit. Get the stick out of your ass please

[bury the year]

Sometime I question if you're willing to read Hoppy.

 

However, Elly throwing a hissyfit over a word I used once is exactly the sorta behavior that gets the LGBT community laughed at. Besides, this all besides the point, Kano was the one who brought the whole meet halfway into this

 

I'm curious, how is me doing what they want meeting then "half-way;" it seems more like meeting them all the way? What half am I getting. I'll call them what they want cause I frankly don't care, but it's disengeous to say that would be half-way

 

If your only response to "why aren't you respecting group X" is "because I don't care," I don't think you should even be debating in the first place. What with being unable to rationally respond to the other side's points and all.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If your only response to "why aren't you respecting group X" is "because I don't care," I don't think you should even be debating in the first place. What with being unable to rationally respond to the other side's points and all.

No, the only reason I'll call her a transgender person over a transsexual person from now on, is because I don't care. Now that she noted how she felt offended because of the term exchange, I won't use "transsexual" to refer to her, because I couldn't care less between the difference (needless to say, I wasn't even talking about her, and it's ironic she gets to speak for all trans people). It was not my initial intention to offend her, and I've just heard both and "tranny" used fairly often (and even by trans people)

 

Maybe you shouldn't be debating if you're quick to confirm your biases like that? Jesus how funking blind are you people. I literally quoted Hoppy a post up saying I would defer to their preferred term. THEY. Get it?

 

That being said, she's being a PC SJW shitlord, and I'm gonna call her out for being a overdramatic snowflake on that account 

[bury the year]

A: No, the only reason I'll call her a transgender person over a transsexual person from now on, is because I don't care. Now that she noted how she felt offended because of the term exchange, was because I couldn't care less between the difference. It was not my initial intention to offend her, and I've just heard both and "tranny" used fairly often (and even by trans people)

 

B: Maybe you shouldn't be debating if you're quick to confirm your biases like that? Jesus how funking blind are you people. I literally quoted Hoppy a post up saying I would defer to their preferred term. THEY. Get it?

 

C: That being said, she's being a PC SJW shitlord, and I'm gonna call her out for being a overdramatic snowflake on that account 

 

Because having respect for the other side, and not spewing insults at them, is generally one of the cornerstones of having a sensible and civil debate.

 

(Exhibits A, B and C being indicated as such.)

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Because having respect for the other side, and not spewing insults at them, is generally one of the cornerstones of having a sensible and civil debate.

 

(Exhibits A, B and C being indicated as such.)

This isn't a political correct thread though, nor a trans one. Will you call her out on derailing for her personal agenda? Avoiding derailment is a cornerstone of a sensible and civil debate isn't it?

 

C'mon...really y'all are actually gonna claim the moral higher ground here?

 

Summary:

 

It wasn't my intention to trigger Elly; I don't care enough to deliberately "delegitimize" trans people, therefore transsexual and transgender have equal bearing to me. Elly and I assume others here, want me to use Transgender, so I will. She's will being a SJW and derailing, and deserved to be called out. YCM left has no higher ground when it comes to civility.

[ihop]

Sometime I question if you're willing to read Hoppy.

 

If you're considering calling them what they want to be further than halfway, what's your original stance?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you're considering calling them what they want to be further than halfway, what's your original stance?

That calling them transsexual isn't the end of the world and she was wrong to derail the topic cause she got triggered at a honest mistake (that I'm still waiting on proof of repeated occurrence on).

 

---

 

Now before I become a hypocrite and further the derailment. Elly you've mentioned before the hormone therapy does infact work to easen the pains that trans people have to go through. It helps make a biologically born male feel more and be more female. A gay male has a high dose of embryonic female hormones (and the theory alleges a potential causal relationship). There's nothing wrong with 1) monitoring child hormone levels while in the embryo to see if such a theory hold up, and potentially doing experiments to see if messing with those levels does create a LGB individual 2) performing experiments on non-human test subjects to see if adult sexuality can be altered.

 

Some people want to change, and that should be their right. And it's certainly not yours to deny research into the area

[a bad post]

Calling you transsexuals? Please link

 

I did not say ANYTHING negative about the T community here. I merely described a prevalent scientific theory on why LGB occur, and suggested a treatment that works for T people to some degree might hold an answer to LGB people who want out (why someone would is beyond me)

 

You flipped out, and homed in on one word I misswrote, and Jack rightfully took you to the woodshed over the PC bullshit. Get the stick out of your ass please

This is not the first time. You did it in the transgender thread.

https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/356168-transgender-serious/page-1 (post 15)

Though I since I couldn't seem to find any more examples of it, I guess you don't say nearly as often as I thought you did. However, you did spend nearly that entire thread trying to prove transgendered people don't exist, and also at one point compared it to autism so, I mean I really don't know what you think is offensive, but that kind of is.

 

Also, I didn't just hone in on one word, I replied to you whole point, and didn't really get angry until I addressed your point on the hormones. Then when I responded to both arguments you guys basically just straw maned me and used a "lol u mad" argument, which you are continuing to use now.

 

 

That calling them transsexual isn't the end of the world and she was wrong to derail the topic cause she got triggered at a honest mistake (that I'm still waiting on proof of repeated occurrence on).

 

---

 

Now before I become a hypocrite and further the derailment. Elly you've mentioned before the hormone therapy does infact work to easen the pains that trans people have to go through. It helps make a biologically born male feel more and be more female. A gay male has a high dose of embryonic female hormones (and the theory alleges a potential causal relationship). There's nothing wrong with 1) monitoring child hormone levels while in the embryo to see if such a theory hold up, and potentially doing experiments to see if messing with those levels does create a LGB individual 2) performing experiments on non-human test subjects to see if adult sexuality can be altered.

 

Some people want to change, and that should be their right. And it's certainly not yours to deny research into the area

The research article makes no claim to being able to change people, though. In fact, it says that it says that it's impossible to change people's sexualities through hormones outside of the womb. If people want to change good for them, but an embryo in the womb doesn't want to change. It doesn't even know what gay or straight is. Hell, even the theory that you can alter sexuality prenatally is suspect.

 

http://borngay.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000020

There is research from both sides of the aisle White, and even then none of it suggests that you can change people's sexualities as adults. That is simply not how hormones work, which is what I've been saying this entire time, and you guys have yet to present concrete evidence otherwise.

 

Also while there's nothing wrong with monitoring children in the womb it is kind of unethical to try to create gay babies don't you think? That's a little bit more extreme than creating babies who will be like super athletic or have blonde hair.