Conversion Therapy

[cr47t]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/realities-of-conversion-therapy_us_582b6cf2e4b01d8a014aea66
 
[spoiler=Quotes about conversion therapy from the article]
 

Conversion therapy is a set of practices that intend to change a person’s sexuality or gender identity to fit heterosexual or cisgender standards and expectations ― and it is usually religiously motivated.
 
Therapy practices can include methods such as talk therapy, electroshock therapy, treating LGBTQ identity as an addiction issue like drugs or alcohol, and more. While certain therapies, like talk therapy, are also legitimate forms of care for people who experience mental health problems, being gay is, of course, not a mental health disorder.
 
TC, a 19-year-old gay man who spoke to The Huffington Post anonymously for this article in order to protect his safety, is a survivor of conversion therapy practices.
 
TC was subjected to conversion therapy in 2012 when he was 15 years old after his parents discovered he was gay. The conversion therapy practices took place in the basement of a church after school hours, and were explained to TC and his parents as having two separate components. He told The Huffington Post:

The first step ― which usually lasted six months ― [is] where they “deconstruct us as a person.” Their tactics still haunt me. Aversion therapy, shock therapy, harassment and occasional physical abuse. Their goal was to get us to hate ourselves for being LGBTQ (most of us were gay, but the entire spectrum was represented), and they knew what they were doing.... The second step of the program, they “rebuilt us in their image.” They removed us of everything that made us a unique person, and instead made us a walking, talking, robot for Jesus. They retaught us everything we knew. How to eat, talk, walk, dress, believe, even breathe. We were no longer people at the end of the program.


 
TC said that the conversion therapy sessions would take place every weekday, with shock therapy treatments lasting approximately an hour, and aversion therapy lasting three.
 
...
 
“I want people to know that conversion therapy is literal torture,” TC continued. “[but] the experience also lit a fire underneath me to prove everyone wrong. I am gay, but I am not worthless. Life will continue no matter what, and the quality of my future depends on the work I put in now, and to prove them all wrong, I need to work my ass off.”
 
When asked if he had a message for pro-conversion therapy Vice President-elect Mike Pence, TC simply said: “I am a human. Treat me like one.” 
 
...
 
...there are no mainstream psychiatric organizations that accept conversion therapies as a reputable practice. “The people who offer these kind of treatments often are not licensed,” Drescher explained. “They’re not bound by any state regulatory bodies for the kind of work they do.”
 
The National Center for Lesbian Rights is one such organization that adamantly advocates against conversion therapy.
 
“Conversion therapy causes serious harms,” NCLR Legal Director Shannon Minter told The Huffington Post. “In the short-term, queer youth who go through conversion therapy are being cheated of the opportunity to gain self-confidence and self-esteem, to get support from family members and other adults, and to have normal adolescent developmental experiences around friendship, dating, and other social experiences. In the long-term, the negative health consequences of being subjected to conversion therapy are extremely serious and can include substance abuse, dropping out of school, HIV infection, depression, and suicide attempts.”
 
Additionally, experts do not believe a person can actually be “converted” or “cured” of gayness or queerness. Dr. Robert Spitzer, one of the most prominent people who advocated for gay cures, actually apologized for his actions and the damage they inflicted in 2012.

 

 

 

Yeah yeah IK it's huffpo but I has a hard time finding a different article to kick off this discussion.

Do you think it should be administered, or outlawed, or that some other action must be taken? Discuss conversion therapy, and LGBTQ rights in extension.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

This story does indeed sound like unsolicited torture.                                                                            

 

I think it should be up to the person whether they decide to go through with it, that they should be told in advance what it entails, and that they should be able to quit at any time. 

[~~~~]

This story does indeed sound like unsolicited torture.                                                                            

 

I think it should be up to the person whether they decide to go through with it, that they should be told in advance what it entails, and that they should be able to quit at any time. 

 

They should also be informed of its efficacy - none

[mido9]

Dr. Robert Spitzer

I should probably feel bad for reading this as richard spencer at first and going "wait, richard is a certified doctor?"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

They should also be informed of its efficacy - none

Why should they be told this? You don't wanna preset a placebo effect

[~~~~]

Why should they be told this? You don't wanna preset a placebo effect

placebo works even if you know it's a placebo

[mido9]

Also, I don't even know how it's supposed to work. It legitimately just looks like intimidation with a few undertones of "it really works, there's something sciency here, trust me!" on top of it just to score points for heaven(which isn't how that works).

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

There are people who've undergone Electroconvulsive therapy for intrusive thoughts and vouch for it. I'm not saying that being attracted to men is the same as intrusive thoughts resulting from a mental illness, but if someone isn't happy with their orientation to the point where they find such thoughts to be intrusive, I can see why it would be considered. That said, the situation in the OP was obviously unsolicited and unlicensed, ECT is extreme, and other methods should take precedence. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Also, I don't even know how it's supposed to work. It legitimately just looks like intimidation with a few undertones of "it really works, there's something sciency here, trust me!" on top of it.

Should work in theory if the current idea that a hormone imbalance as a fetus is what creates the distinction.

 

Personally not sure cause most creatures exemplify some manner of bisexuality.

 

But in theory there's a sweet-spot in the hormone therapy that trans people use that you could use to coax the mind into "fixing" itself. 

 

Like if you apply the same hormone treatment you'd use on M->F transsexuals to a lesbian woman, it should theoretically push her to be more feminine, which might make her more attracted to men? Maybe? I dunno

 

Electro-shock is like pavlov's dog, it's gonna wear off

placebo works even if you know it's a placebo

Unproductive. If it fails, you should think it's cause that's the way you're meant to be, not cause the treatment is shitty

[Sunshine Jesse]

I disagree with this strongly, the idea that someone would eventually effectively be forced to undergo this due to social and societal pressure makes the idea unacceptable to me.

 

"It's a choice" doesn't mean anything if there will be plenty of people who it won't actually be a choice for, especially considering it was a placebo effect.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I disagree with this strongly, the idea that someone would eventually effectively be forced to undergo this due to social and societal pressure makes the idea unacceptable to me.

 

"It's a choice" doesn't mean anything if there will be plenty of people who it won't actually be a choice for, especially considering it was a placebo effect.

Happens naturally tbh, I was far more attracted to guys in HS and early college than I am now. Sexuality isn't static. People just think it is

[Delibirb]

Apologies, this post won't be contributing much to the primary topic.

 

In ancient Rome or Greece (I can never remember) it was considered odd to only be attracted to one gender; bisexuality was the norm.

[Blake]

I remember my dad telling 15 year old me about some LOVE THEM UNTIL THEY ARE STRAIGHT program, which was weird.

 

I found it fishy even then, and I was not pro-homosexuality.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Apologies, this post won't be contributing much to the primary topic.

 

In ancient Rome or Greece (I can never remember) it was considered odd to only be attracted to one gender; bisexuality was the norm.

THIS

 

ALL THESE PEOPLE MISSING OUT ON HALF THE WORLDS PLEASURES

 

SMH

[Medivh]

Why are LGBT rights a debate, again? Why is the torture an entire group of people a "debate?" 

 

The fact that this is in debates -- that it's possible that someone could argue LGBTQ people didn't deserve rights and that conversion therapy should be administered to them, and that theoretically people would find that view correct -- is disgusting. 

 

I'm not saying anyone here would argue for that viewpoint, but I'm dissapointed in this site for giving people who could a platform to advocate the denial of basic human rights.

[Delibirb]

Why are LGBT rights a debate, again? Why is the torture an entire group of people a "debate?" 

 

The fact that this is in debates -- that it's possible that someone could argue LGBTQ people didn't deserve rights and that conversion therapy should be administered to them, and that theoretically people would find that view correct -- is disgusting. 

 

I'm not saying anyone here would argue for that viewpoint, but I'm dissapointed in this site for giving people who could a platform to advocate the denial of basic human rights.

I'm in that position for a lot of things. There are so many things that are political talk points when they really have no reason to be. One shouldn't argue for an antiquated, moronic viewpoint just because one spent most of one's life developing/believing it falsely.

[a bad post]

Should work in theory if the current idea that a hormone imbalance as a fetus is what creates the distinction.

 

Personally not sure cause most creatures exemplify some manner of bisexuality.

 

But in theory there's a sweet-spot in the hormone therapy that trans people use that you could use to coax the mind into "fixing" itself. 

 

Like if you apply the same hormone treatment you'd use on M->F transsexuals to a lesbian woman, it should theoretically push her to be more feminine, which might make her more attracted to men? Maybe? I dunno

 

Electro-shock is like pavlov's dog, it's gonna wear off

Unproductive. If it fails, you should think it's cause that's the way you're meant to be, not cause the treatment is shitty

First of all can you please stop using the word "transsexuals" not only is it extremely offensive, it's also inaccurate. The term is transgender, and I don't what your opinion is about it can you at least pretend to show a modicum of respect.

 

Also, that hormone treatment seriously displays your ignorance of the subject. Hormones have no effect on sexuality, and also have no effect on how feminine or masculine you are. Please, all I'm asking is you do some research before you post sheet like this.

 

 

Happens naturally tbh, I was far more attracted to guys in HS and early college than I am now. Sexuality isn't static. People just think it is

That's not the point she was trying to make. Kate didn't say that people sexualities couldn't change as they went through life, what she was saying was that people such as minors would not have a choice if conversion therapy was made freely available to people.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

First of all can you please stop using the word "transsexuals" not only is it extremely offensive, it's also inaccurate. The term is transgender, and I don't what your opinion is about it can you at least pretend to show a modicum of respect.

 

His use of the word "transsexuals" is not inaccurate in the context, nor is it his problem if you find it "extremely offensive".

 

 

"Transsexuals are people who transition from one sex to another. A person born as a male can become recognizably female through the use of hormones and/or surgical procedures; and a person born as a female can become recognizably male. That said, transsexuals are unable to change their genetics and cannot acquire the reproductive abilities of the sex to which they transition. Sex is assigned at birth and refers to a person’s biological status as male or female. In other words, sex refers exclusively to the biological features: chromosomes, the balance of hormones, and internal and external anatomy. Each of us is born as either male or female, with rare exceptions of those born intersex who may display characteristics of both sexes at birth.

 

Transgender, unlike transsexual, is a term for people whose identity, expression, behavior, or general sense of self does not conform to what is usually associated with the sex they were born in the place they were born. It is often said sex is a matter of the body, while gender occurs in the mind. Gender is an internal sense of being male, female, or other. People often use binary terms, for instance, masculine or feminine, to describe gender just as they do when referring to sex. But gender is more complex and encompasses more than just two possibilities. Gender also is influenced by culture, class, and race because behavior, activities, and attributes seen as appropriate in one society or group may be viewed otherwise in another."

http://www.medicaldaily.com/what-difference-between-transsexual-and-transgender-facebooks-new-version-its-complicated-271389

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Also, that hormone treatment seriously displays your ignorance of the subject. Hormones have no effect on sexuality, and also have no effect on how feminine or masculine you are. Please, all I'm asking is you do some research before you post sheet like this.

Actually they do.

 

http://www.everydayhealth.com/sexual-health/menopause.aspx

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138231/

 

And Transsexuals is the correct terms regardless of whether you want to admit it or not.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

His use of the word "transsexuals" is not inaccurate in the context, nor is it his problem if you find it "extremely offensive".

 

 

http://www.medicaldaily.com/what-difference-between-transsexual-and-transgender-facebooks-new-version-its-complicated-271389

It's almost as if I was using the right terminology and people conflated muh feelings with fact one again

 

Funny how that works

 

Why are LGBT rights a debate, again? Why is the torture an entire group of people a "debate?"

 

The fact that this is in debates -- that it's possible that someone could argue LGBTQ people didn't deserve rights and that conversion therapy should be administered to them, and that theoretically people would find that view correct -- is disgusting.

 

I'm not saying anyone here would argue for that viewpoint, but I'm dissapointed in this site for giving people who could a platform to advocate the denial of basic human rights.

If they consent to it, you have no real right to stop them is the idea

[Halubaris Maphotika]

Why are LGBT rights a debate, again? Why is the torture an entire group of people a "debate?" 

 

The fact that this is in debates -- that it's possible that someone could argue LGBTQ people didn't deserve rights and that conversion therapy should be administered to them, and that theoretically people would find that view correct -- is disgusting. 

 

I'm not saying anyone here would argue for that viewpoint, but I'm dissapointed in this site for giving people who could a platform to advocate the denial of basic human rights.

Everybody deserves a platform. The minute you restrict who can or can't present their opinions is the minute you cause them to grow and gain more followers.

 

Advocating is whatever. Advocating is only as good as how many choose to follow it. The only disgusting person here is the one who wants to rollback freedom of speech because he doesn't like certain opinions. I don't give a rats behind if someone comes here advocating for the genocide of the Dut Dut People from freaking Botswanaland. As long as he only speaks words, he has every right to say it. Restricting that form of speech makes people with those opinions feel marginalized and silenced, once that happens, they become more dedicated than ever to spread their message.

 

Disappointed? Then you may leave, because MANY debates will have Devil's Advocates and many debates will cross certain lines.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

If they consent to it, you have no real right to stop them is the idea

I disagree with this sentence on a fundamental level. Many self-harming practices are super illegal, not to mention the potential for societal pressures as Jesse was saying.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

I disagree with this sentence on a fundamental level. Many self-harming practices are super illegal, not to mention the potential for societal pressures as Jesse was saying.

To me, it's like BDSM, only for a different purpose.

[Makο]

I disagree with this sentence on a fundamental level. Many self-harming practices are super illegal, not to mention the potential for societal pressures as Jesse was saying.

Societal pressures aside, does the government really have the right to make illegal self-harming practices, so long as said harm does not impede on the rights or liberties of anyone else around them? Just because some things are illegal doesn't mean they should be.

 

See: 'member the gays™?

[Agro]

Even if they consent to it, there's a clear correlation between conversion therapy and suicide. Those who run conversion camps understand this. They tell the family of people subjected to it this prior to starting. If you know of this correlation and go through it anyway, that arguably constitutes assisted suicide.

 

Ignoring the moral implications of this– which I can't imagine anyone thinking to be morally acceptable unless they believe not being gay is more of a crime than murder– that would put it in the realm of being illegal all on its own.