"Alternative Facts"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

This is a new low.

 

New?

 

---

 

That being said, would have been a better and more swift rebuttal to point out that Farifax VA, Maryland, and DC are all heavily Blue, therefore logic would dictate that Obama had higher numbers in 09. Unfortunate that neither Bannon nor Kushner figured that one out in time

[ihop]

Well, absolutely, that would have been a very good, and probably even true, rebuttal. That's the issue, instead of going for easy, logical defences they're just making up whatever's easiest and using a euphemism to cover up the fact that they lied. It feels like an ego thing - the crowds for Trump's inauguration just have to be the biggest and the truth standing in the way of that isn't important.

 

edit: Also, "figured out in time"? It's pretty much the most obvious low-hanging fruit there is, idk what kind of boneheads are running this if that particular thought didn't occur to them. Frankly, it's something they could've predicted beforehand too.

[Phantom Roxas]

Yeah, but you're not the media; CNN and MSNBC were the first ones to mock the crowd size. It's not ok that Spice lied, but it's understandable why he would have to

 

Pick a side. Either it's acceptable for him to have lied, or it isn't. CNN and MSNBC mocking the crowd size doesn't suddenly justify him lying back.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Pick a side. Either it's acceptable for him to have lied, or it isn't. CNN and MSNBC mocking the crowd size doesn't suddenly justify him lying back.

It's acceptable if his goal was to distract from the march on Washington and lower it's coverage on TV, which did happen

 

It's stupid if his goal was to explain why his crowd was smaller than '09, and thus unjustified.

 

I'm not sure which was his goal, so I cannot give you a clear answer. A logical argument on his voters being lower wage WC people and not the typical DC Suburbs people would have been rational and accepted and not thrown a wrench into the discourse of yesterday. There's a chaos argument to be made. 

 

Alternatively he could have signed the TPP executive order yesterday and done other things to distract. What Kellyanne said however is inexcusable. That was just stupid to listen to 

[ihop]

Lying is acceptable when used to cover up peaceful protest?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Lying is acceptable when used to cover up peaceful protest?

Creating a cover story to overcome a politically unpleasant story for him is

 

I think it was a politically stupid decision though. He rolled out his big Contract with America yesterday, and that go no coverage. The CIA fued is ended, that got no coverage. I would have used the fairfax excuse and aggressively send out my allies on TV to distract. But he won the presidency, so far be it for me to tell him what to do to win.

 

 

He could have had this

[ihop]

good grief

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

 

Washington vs. Dallas NHL game last night, lulz ensue. The crowd capacity in Dallas is 18,352. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

good grief

You can't possibly be naive enough to think that this sorta smoke bomb politics doesn't happen

 

Is exclusive to Trump. 

[ihop]

You should really learn to think through everything you're saying before clicking the post button. It's pretty difficult to argue on a forum with someone who repeatedly edits every post adding more to it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You should really learn to think through everything you're saying before clicking the post button. It's pretty difficult to argue on a forum with someone who repeatedly edits every post adding more to it.

It's hardly a huge edit, same meaning really, but no doubt someone would have nitpicked so felt I should correct 

 

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Most of you are partisan democrats or foreign liberals, so I don't fully expect you to want to understand the Trump side here.

 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12671/response-ben-shapiro-five-reasons-i-dont-care-if-john-nolte#.WIYjuuyW2tc.twitter

 

But that's a pretty good artical explaining why I'm fine with it

[Phantom Roxas]

It's hardly a huge edit, same meaning really, but no doubt someone would have nitpicked so felt I should correct 

 

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Most of you are partisan democrats or foreign liberals, so I don't fully expect you to want to understand the Trump side here.

 

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12671/response-ben-shapiro-five-reasons-i-dont-care-if-john-nolte#.WIYjuuyW2tc.twitter

 

But that's a pretty good artical explaining why I'm fine with it

 

> "It's hardly a huge edit"

> [Adds in an edit larger than the content of the original post]

 

See, this is exactly the problem. Either get all your content into the original post, or wait until your next post to share it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

> "It's hardly a huge edit"

> [Adds in an edit larger than the content of the original post]

 

See, this is exactly the problem. Either get all your content into the original post, or wait until your next post to share it.

C'mon are you just looking for gotcha's everywhere now? The hardly a huge edit was for the first post. I replaced "happen" with "exclusive to trump"

 

I put a bar and a NEW topic not related to my convo with hoppy cause y'all warn the living funk out of me for double posting. You can't have it both ways, do you want me to Edit like Dad said, or can I double post

 

You're full of sheet here Roxas

[Aerion Brightflame]

SmokeBomb politics is common. It's just not common to contradict yourself in the same sentance, whilst also claiming that your lie was 'alternative facts'.

 

We don't have to care about why the adminstration lied about this, because every adminstration will do sheet like this, it's a part of politics. Not every adminstration will claim that what they said wasn't a lie, it was just 'alternative truth'. Alternative truth allows the adminstration to claim whatever it wants, regardless of how it may or may not be disproven, and then stand by it as if it were the truth. It doesn't have to back down, or be accountable, it just flagrantly rewrite reality to whatever it wants to be.

 

The adminstration shouldn't do that. The media did do some stupid stuff, but it's not a justifcation for the adminstration to continually lay down the idea that it is the only truth even when it's outright wrong. That's what the banner of 'alternative facts' does. It plays off of growing media skeptism to pass lies as truth.

 

It doesn't matter which side of the aisle you are, that should be worrying. When the adminstration starts to decide what is or isn't true. I know you have expressed this very fear in the past week.

[Phantom Roxas]

C'mon are you just looking for gotcha's everywhere now? The hardly a huge edit was for the first post. I replaced "happen" with "exclusive to trump"

 

I put a bar and a NEW topic not related to my convo with hoppy cause y'all warn the living funk out of me for double posting. You can't have it both ways, do you want me to Edit like Dad said, or can I double post

 

You're full of sheet here Roxas

 

I was expanding on a point that Klav already made, as you did exactly what he was criticizing. I would prefer if you neither edited or double posted, as it would be much simpler if you just said everything from the get-go.

 

As for John Nolte's article, my opposition to Trump's side isn't because I'm a Democrat. I understand that lies are the name of the game, but the points go from "That's just how it works" to "The media is the only issue". No, you can't just single out the media for lying, and then make it okay for politicians to do the same. If anything, Trump's problems with media seems to be that they point out when he lies, so he just accuses them of lying so that he doesn't have to admit to anything. The "problem" with the media is, essentially, "STOP POINTING OUT WHEN I SCREWED UP!" Which just shows Trump refuses to be held accountable, rather than the media stirring the pot. I'll accept that the media does get out of line, but they're not the "only" issue. Especially when the media is scapegoat for being the only ones concerned about Trump's tax returns, which completely neglects the concerns of average citizens. It's easy to avoid admitting fault when you just demonize the people who ask you to be accountable.

[Wahrheit]

SmokeBomb politics is common. It's just not common to contradict yourself in the same sentance, whilst also claiming that your lie was 'alternative facts'.

 

We don't have to care about why the adminstration lied about this, because every adminstration will do sheet like this, it's a part of politics. Not every adminstration will claim that what they said wasn't a lie, it was just 'alternative truth'. Alternative truth allows the adminstration to claim whatever it wants, regardless of how it may or may not be disproven, and then stand by it as if it were the truth. It doesn't have to back down, or be accountable, it just flagrantly rewrite reality to whatever it wants to be.

 

The adminstration shouldn't do that. The media did do some stupid stuff, but it's not a justifcation for the adminstration to continually lay down the idea that it is the only truth even when it's outright wrong. That's what the banner of 'alternative facts' does. It plays off of growing media skeptism to pass lies as truth.

 

It doesn't matter which side of the aisle you are, that should be worrying. When the adminstration starts to decide what is or isn't true. I know you have expressed this very fear in the past week.

Also important is that they lied, and then they didn't offer the opportunity for questions. That's a big part Winter etc are ignoring. The system is designed to allow both parties to account for faults - but Spicer is cutting that off. That's bad.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Also important is that they lied, and then they didn't offer the opportunity for questions. That's a big part Winter etc are ignoring. The system is designed to allow both parties to account for faults - but Spicer is cutting that off. That's bad.

Has this been brought up; I didn't ignore it as much as not see it if it has. I'll respond with my feelings on that matter after I get lunch

[vla1ne]

Also important is that they lied, and then they didn't offer the opportunity for questions. That's a big part Winter etc are ignoring. The system is designed to allow both parties to account for faults - but Spicer is cutting that off. That's bad.

if you recall, all throughout this election, the media has not only lied on them, but completely sheet on them. it is 100% logical to tell the media to funk off when they have shown you no respect whatsoever over the past 12 months, look at them, look at how much they've blown this out of proportion already, it's attendance, this level of mistake doesn't spell doom no matter how you look at it. a few side jokes, sure, but any more than a day spent attacking them for this is both petty and unproductive. how much coverage do you see of them praising trump for backing out of the TPP? how much praise in general have you seen over the past year? and of all the criticism, how much of it has been petty nitpicks? there's a reason trump tore into them, they are biased asses, who don't deserve his respect, because they have shown him not one iota of it.

 

in addition, as crab has stated, it is more of a mistake on both parts, it's far more likely that the meaning didn't get across as far as spicer is concerned, considering how simple it is to correct his statements, than it is that he was purposefully lying. and on conway's end, she was more likely just thrown off than trying to redefine some form of truth. but again, like so many times before, what happens? do they analyze it, and find both good and bad? nope, immidiately they go to the "hurrduur doom gloom" route. "if he's lying about this, what else will he lie about" first step, prove the lie was both intentional, and malicious in intent, presidential hype and misinformation are both easy to understand, no you cannot claim that him making the "unquantifiable" statement is proof of blatant lies, as you yourselves have just shown us, with that camera trick you praise so much. did it look like a sea of people? yes, was it being broadcast worldwide? yes, was it being streamed on at least 5 different sites? with multiple channels on those sites providing coverage? yes, so is it unthinkable that he was caught up in the hype, and overestimated crowd size? nope, not at all. but lookie here, you all appear to never want to think things through, he didn't lie about starting a war, he made a mistake about a hype moment, that had both haters, lovers, and the apathetic watching from countless angles, like i said two pages ago, cut out four words, and his statement becomes perfectly fine. but nope, when it comes to trump, and trump supporters, you people are allergic to the benefit of the doubt. what does he have to gain from lying about this? nothing, what are the odds that we was lying, in relation to it being a mistake? at worst, 50/50, but does anybody here care? no, because you clearly want that lamb sacrificed.

 

end point, it's a nitpick, blown out of proportions, and demonized by the media, even though it means literally nothing on any rational scale. whether he was right or wrong, get over it. every presidential term contains lies/ mistakes, and many of those lies have been about far larger things, but the media didn't go on a witch hunt, "After the worst recession in 80 years, we’ve fought our way back," Obama said. "We’ve seen deficits come down, 401(k)s recover, an auto industry set new records, unemployment reach eight-year lows, and our businesses create 15 million new jobs."  so ask yourselves, is this really something that worries you to any rational extent, or are you simply looking for a sheep to hang up by the fire?.

[VCR_CAT]

A big post

 

This is a fair criticism. I'd like to say I am making an effort to really think things through, but this is, overall, a small event that hopefully means nothing in the long run. The implications it can have are really not that good, and my main criticisms towards Trump have to do with his behavior and reactions to the negative media in the past as well. There's a lot of ways this dude can react to the negative coverage; for instance, his tweet re: the Women's March protests was super deserving of respect, and I hope we see more of that side of him.

 

He has had a lot of opportunities to make similar responses in the wake of bad reception or nitpicks, and combining his common knee-jerk "FAKE NEWS!" reactions with the statement he gave Spicer in response to the crowd screenshots is not giving a good impression for me. I get that these kind of politics are done all the time and the media has said equally dubious statements, but that doesn't mean it's just something to overlook entirely. I guess I'll close my statement by saying yeah, I'll concede that it's a nitpick and not something indicative of what Trump will do over the course of the next 4/4+ years, but it's not giving a good impression. If Trump can present a far more transparent and honest government over his term, I'll respect the hell out of him. I want to see him give a term that has the naysayers go "Y'know what, we were wrong" because really, what's so bad with that? At the moment, I really don't like the guy, but I'm willing to give him a good, fair chance. Right now, this is a rocky start, and his attitude towards the media and this current response doesn't have very good implications for what may happen to freedoms of the press in the future. Hopefully he invalidates those concerns.

 

Pulling out of the TPP is great (seriously, screw that); term limits in the government is great. I may not agree with everything he's doing (some of it I really don't like), but there's still some good things he has in store, and hopefully things shape up to be better than that. 

[vla1ne]

[thank you]

that's basically what i'm asking (more from the media than from the people on this site, but still.). 

 

he's president, and whether people like him or not, the media has to start giving fair coverage of the good and the bad. yes, this mistake was indeed stupid, but it is not had to understand how it could have occurred. and i understand that people don't like all of his policies, but there's a lot in there to praise, and i have heard little to nothing about the good bits from the mainstream media. they've been reporting on more and more biased terms since the start of this election, and it's far past time they went back to putting out only the facts of each matter.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Also important is that they lied, and then they didn't offer the opportunity for questions. That's a big part Winter etc are ignoring. The system is designed to allow both parties to account for faults - but Spicer is cutting that off. That's bad.

Short answer, it's wrong

 

Longer answer, it might have been needed if the goal was to occupy the news cycle the entire day and detract from march. Either way, I don't like it.

 

The goal should be a honest media, yes they needed to get slapped, but this is not the way I would have liked to done it. The sheet they pulled with the MLK bust or the Sex Tape Dossier was sick crap. President shouldn't have done it, but he's fed up; you and I would both be too.

 

Edit: MLK bust story, Pool reporter says Trump removed MLK bust from WH. Twitter trend fuels the "trump hates black people rhetoric"

 

After the story has been seen a ton, the reporter later says bust is still there. Well dude, funk, the damage is done. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Just because smokebomb politics are common doesn't mean they are right.

 

Yes, I know that it is done on the left (the entire month of October was really just both sides trying to out-headline each other) and I disagree with it from either side.

 

There is the obvious rebuttal of "well, that's just how politics work, tough sheet" but wasn't one of the Trump campaign's greatest appeals that he wasn't a politician?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Just because smokebomb politics are common doesn't mean they are right.

 

Yes, I know that it is done on the left (the entire month of October was really just both sides trying to out-headline each other) and I disagree with it from either side.

 

There is the obvious rebuttal of "well, that's just how politics work, tough sheet" but wasn't one of the Trump campaign's greatest appeals that he wasn't a politician?

Yes, it's disappointing. Spicer has been better today and he put forth the transparency by increasing access to the WH. It was a mistake, and according to NYT, even President Trump acknowledged that apparently.

 

Give him a chance is all I'm asking you guys   

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/23/sean-spicer-white-house-press-conference.html

 

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A lot of good things happened today

 

Primarly, President is backing the Bernie amendment to reduce the lower prescription drug policy, and is meeting with dems (Rep Cummings of MD). DACA will not be gutted. He's really not the evil demon people make him out to be. 

 

I personally think he needs to hammer the press for the false story, and what he did on Sat would do that, but it's not the good way to do it. 

 

Is that acceptable?

 

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Spicer apologizes, kinda. "Wrong information" he says. About the best we're gonna get

[VCR_CAT]

All's well that ends well!

[senorchavez]

Yeah he instead went to say it had the most viewership which is a more plausible--if not objective--assessment.