~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 As well as their right to free speech which I commend them for expressing, and their right to assemble for what have consistently been non-violent protests. I welcome you to relate your views on the Westboro Baptist Church and all it stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I dislike their rather extremists views (in my opinion), but I do agree they every right to non-violently protest and stand for their own causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I find them disgraceful. I can't shut them down or anything, but they're the opposite of what Christianity should mean. They're the sort of people that turn people off of the church before trying it. However, at least they're firm in what they believe, unlike the average posturing churchgoer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Is it wrong to turn people off? After all, those who'd let something like the WBC turn them off their own beliefs would thereby be demonstrating a lack of strength in their conviction, whether their views are similar or entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makο Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I agree that Westboro has the right to voice their opinion and way of life, and protesting in the process, just as any other organization or group does. They actually bring up an interesting issue (that, in post, I realize Black over there mentioned) in regards to a different religion with a sect of people we'd rather not do bad things; Muslims. I see a lot of people say that people of the Muslim faith who commit horrible acts such as terrorism, people who oppress woman, people who follow the Hadith strictly, etc are "not true Muslims." You know, because they're doing bad things. And I used to agree with that sentiment. I was more dedicated Christian a few years back, and I sort of went by the same logic. "Westboro aren't true Christians! True Christians wouldn't be like that!" So I figured the same applied to Muslims. But the more I thought about it, and the more I sort of crept away from Christianity, the less it made sense of me to think of it that way. Unlike something like Catholicism, where you got one "leader" who basically sets all the rules and precedents, Christianity and (as far as I can tell) Islam do not. It all comes down to personal interpretations by sect leaders, or even down on an individual level, and how strictly you adhere to the written doctrine (which undoubtedly has some messed up stuff in it). So when it comes to folks like Westboro to Muslim extremists, there are no "bad muslims" or "bad christians," ideologically speaking. There are versions of Christianity and Islam that disagree with a modern western lifestyle, sure, just as there are versions of both that are perfectly compatible with modern western civilization. But all variants of those two particular religions are the same level of validity, ideologically, and from an outside perspective. i feel like this tangent might be kinda off topic but ehhhhh fugget about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Why would you respect them? You can say "sure, they have a right to do a thing" without respecting them. They certainly don't deserve any more respect than they've earned - which is, hint, none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Is it wrong to turn people off? After all, those who'd let something like the WBC turn them off their own beliefs would thereby be demonstrating a lack of strength in their conviction, whether their views are similar or entirely different. I meant encourages people not to try Christianity or give it a chance. Not those who already are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makο Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 @WahrWhen we speak of respect (I really shouldn't speak for others but eh) we aren't talking about respect of the individual or group. It's about respect for the rights that they have. I know I certainly don't respect them in any manner outside their unalienable rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 @WahrWhen we speak of respect (I really shouldn't speak for others but eh) we aren't talking about respect of the individual or group. It's about respect for the rights that they have. I know I certainly don't respect them in any manner outside their unalienable rights.But that's not what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazooie Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Normally I avoid the hell out of this section, cause I don't have the patience and time to write long argumentative posts, but... This one isn't actually going to be argumentative. It's already been said multiple times they have the right to do what they're doing. At the same time, other civilians can take the time to make what they're doing less effective, which has happened. I remember in the wake of the Pulse Nightclub Shooting, they were planning to go down there to protest the funeral, which is incredibly distasteful, but that's something else. A bunch of people came together to make sure their protest would be mostly out of sight by the funeral goers, which was a big deal to me cause that protest on Westboro's part was really... Yeah. Needless to say, I don't agree with their actions, and I think their message is totally wrong. That doesn't mean they aren't allowed to say it, but I sincerely hope it doesn't become the norm again. I respect they have the right to do it, but I certainly do not respect the group or individuals at all. They're a destructive, uncaring group of people who have brought very little, if any at all, good to the world. The only good I can think of is when people band together to defy them. They have the right to exist, I have the right to hate what they stand for entirely. But I do not respect them. Edit: Wow, I got ninja'd a lot while typing this. I'm a slow poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makο Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 But that's not what he said.I'm not seeing it. Can you point it out for me please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Why would you respect them? You can say "sure, they have a right to do a thing" without respecting them. They certainly don't deserve any more respect than they've earned - which is, hint, none. There is something of value in taking staunch positions that are so universally acknowledged as odious, and doing it without violence. They epitomize non-violent protest in the face of numbers and consequences, and that to me is worthy of respect. Inspirational even, to channel into a completely different platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm not seeing it. Can you point it out for me please? "I fully respect the Westboro Baptist Church" There is something of value in taking staunch positions that are so universally acknowledged as odious, and doing it without violence. They epitomize non-violent protest in the face of numbers and consequences, and that to me is worthy of respect. Inspirational even, to channel into a completely different platform. I think they're perfectly fine defending themselves and don't need you or anyone else to do it for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm not so much defending them as expressing my admiration for how metal they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm not so much defending them as expressing my admiration for how metal they are. Distinguish the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Defending implies acknowledging attacks against something and working to prevent them. I'm stating my admiration for the WBC's conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simping For Hina Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Respecting their right to free speech is different than respecting them. I funking hate the Westboro Baptist Church, but I am okay with them being able to speak. I just don't approve of their mannerism and sheet. Big difference. Respecting the Westboro Baptist Church is respecting what the stand for, rather than the rights that they have and their ability to act upon them. Big ass difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makο Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I feel like this is a sort of... "respect the hustle" sort of thing. Where you can respect the dedication, conviction, and effort put into something, but not respect the action itself. Like that one guy who went to a bunch of cons pretending to be the Youtube Animator 2snacks. I respect his hustle, but he's an jabroni. Admittingly, this example is on an entirely different scale, but the point stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconus297 Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Put bluntly, I find them to be intolerable people, and a group that has no real reason to exist, but that's mostly down to 3 reasons: A) I'm not a religious human being. Never have been, and I doubt I will be in the future. I'm a cynic when it comes to religious beliefs, so I try to see what other reasons someone might have for their actions- so, when I see people banding together and just flinging hatred, what I understand is people who aren't comfortable with people different from themselves and, rather than trying to overcome it, they hide behind a quasi-respectable banner that can't be assaulted because freedom of religion. B) I am not a generally happy camper. Nine times out of ten I will be disgusted by people when I first meet them, and even the people that don't outright bother me are typically best regarded as "that person I know". I have precisely one person I have ever called a friend with no sense of irony or sarcasm to the statement, and she was trying to commit suicide when I met her. Just because of her sexuality, mind you, her family and friends absolutely abandoned her. So, I get a bit . . . touchy regarding homophobia, because quite honestly that means that you have a problem with my only friend in the world for no legitimate reason. Seeing any group, least of all a church that's supposed to "guide the community" and other such things, band together and (from my perspective) hate on the single most kindhearted person I have ever met has gotten me angry enough to smack people on more than one occasion. C) Yes, I get it. They have a right to their views, regardless of what we think of them. However, freedom of speech also means you need to give others the freedom to make counterarguments, which they don't accept. That kind of blind zealotry infuriates me to no end. Views can and should be moldable, everyone should be able to hear one another out and change their views to accommodate new information, but the WBC and similar groups are so insular that their minds can't reliably be changed, or even reached out to before shutting in on themselves with a "that's what my God tells me". /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I don't respect their speech because I don't think it's a net gain to society. I don't respect that they have a right to it - they didn't earn it, and they don't respect it. They manipulate it. You don't see the WBC and think, "Wow, it's sure a good thing that they have protected speech! We're all better off for it!" It might be a good thing that speech is protected generally, and there might be consequences like the WBC as a result of that, but that doesn't mean that we need to praise the WBC for their usage of those rights, or that their usage is worth respecting. And if you don't think their usage is good, then all you're doing is saying, "Wow, free speech is a thing! Crazy!" That's a truism, not a debate. This topic sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VCR_CAT Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I don't respect their speech because I don't think it's a net gain to society. I don't respect that they have a right to it - they didn't earn it, and they don't respect it. They manipulate it. You don't see the WBC and think, "Wow, it's sure a good thing that they have protected speech! We're all better off for it!" It might be a good thing that speech is protected generally, and there might be consequences like the WBC as a result of that, but that doesn't mean that we need to praise the WBC for their usage of those rights, or that their usage is worth respecting. And if you don't think their usage is good, then all you're doing is saying, "Wow, free speech is a thing! Crazy!" That's a truism, not a debate. This topic sucks. What's especially silly is to call this topic "I fully respect the Westboro Baptist Church" and then just go right out and say "lol okay I just respect that they're being dicks with their free speech I don't actually fully respect them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I do think their usage is good in that we can take it and purpose it how we choose to. Their saying what they have to say is not necessarily damaging to society, and could just as well be a net gain for society if seen through a lens that can gain from it. What's especially silly is to call this topic "I fully respect the Westboro Baptist Church" and then just go right out and say "lol okay I just respect that they're being dicks with their free speech I don't actually fully respect them" I don't think they're being dicks, or are doing what they do for the sake of being dicks. I think they are passionately expressing their viewpoint in a way that is admirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delibirb Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm not a lawyer, and the following hasn't been done because lawyers know it can't be, but I find that their free speech is really more hate speech than anything. Regardless, my problem is that their rhetoric is generally using the rights they're afforded to try to deny the rights of other peoples. They do more than say "gay people shouldn't be alive" they actively encourage and applaud gay deaths to make their point, to try to remove rights from others with fear mongering. How can you respect the rights of a group who disrespects the very same rights afforded to others. Rights to freedom of speech, rights to mourn the dead peacefully, rights to marry privately. Well I don't respect them, and I don't respect their usage of rights to promote cruelty and disrespect. It's inhuman, counterproductive, regressive, and unamerican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahrheit Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 How is this thread not just a truism / why shouldn't it be locked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~ P O L A R I S ~ Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 I'm not a lawyer, and the following hasn't been done because lawyers know it can't be, but I find that their free speech is really more hate speech than anything. What's wrong with hate speech? How is this thread not just a truism / why shouldn't it be locked? Your "truism" is a straw man suggesting that I don't support the way in which the WBC invokes its free speech. There is a very real split in your argumentation and mine, when you are both against their free speech and consider their usage of it, or "manipulation" of it as you put it, a net loss for society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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