[MtG] Banlist Announcement for Jan. 9

[bury the year]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/january-9-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-01-09

 

Standard:

Emrakul, the Promised End is banned.

Reflector Mage is banned.

Smuggler's Copter is banned.

 

Modern:

Gitaxian Probe is banned.

Golgari Grave-Troll is banned.

 

Didn't think they'd do it, but wew. I had an inkling that Emrakul was gonna get axed, but didn't expect Mage and Copter to get hit as well. That's absolutely absurd. And don't even get me started on Modern - Dredge is now dead in the water.

 

Finally, to quote, "Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday." This means we will likely be seeing more announcements of this magnitude in the near future, and that we will be seeing mid-season bans now.

 

Your thoughts?

[Simping For Hina]

yeahhhhh!

[Flame Dragon]

I'm surprised by the standard bans. While they all do make sense, standard is a format they try VERY hard not to ban thing in and I don't think the format was so bad that bans were needed. That being said, the format is likely better with these cards gone. Also, 3/3 for standards with artifact blocks having bans.

 

I don't think anyone is shocked Troll is gone. It was brought back because the format couldn't really do anything with it, then it got cards to do stuff with it. With the graveyard being such a common place to design around it was going to happen eventually. Probe's ban is a little surprising but 56 card decks in a format all about speed is powerful. Hurting infect certainly isn't a bad thing. All this being said, I hate that every time a ban list comes out I fear losing Mox Opal. I would 100% understand why it gets banned, but as someone with an Affinity deck losing it would more or less make the deck unplayable. With the way they ban things I certainly do feel this is a when and not an if.

[NeoRWBY65]

I'm kind of glad these cards are banned. I don't go to tournaments much, but I face a Promised end in EDH and saw the destruction it wrought (mainly since I upset that player just before and he targeted me with the mindslaver). And I heard all of the complaints about Copter and can see that with the low cost to play and crew, it had too much strength in standard.

[Simping For Hina]

[bury the year]

Disagree with your assessment there, boo. Emrakul needed to be banned, which would gut Marvel and hurt GB Delirium. Copter's ubiquity wasn't something they expected, so banning it would weaken most decks, but primarily Delirium and WU Flash. With that in mind, however, those two being banned alone would let Flash in its current build run even more rampant than it is now, and Mage seemed like the best target from that deck to hit to not gimp it entirely. (Also, it's entirely likely they tested him with the Saheeli/Felidar combo and realized it'd be too oppressive to not ban.) I don't think you could reasonably ban one of those cards without the other two, as you needed to hit the top three archetypes in the format relatively equally.

 

Also, Maro has mentioned all three of these were potential sore spots coming out of Development.

• They wanted to push Emrakul, but didn't know to what lengths.
• Copter was the best of a new subtype, which naturally was going to face balancing issues.
• Mage was a 2/2 up until the very end of OGW testing, and they didn't look into how much better making him a 2/3 was.

So, at first glance the bans were unforeseen, but the reasoning WotC provides makes a lot of sense.

[Simping For Hina]

IN a nut shell, of course they seem stable. You actually didn't disprove any of my assessments.

 

UW Flash and Aggro was one of the worse best decks, only being a presence on MTGO which should not in any way be used for market data on the metagames, as it is a different way to play the game and plays by different metrics. It is also a heinous attribute to anything, as their leagues are essentially FNMS, which aren't used for data either. It is not a place to test decks. It is not a place to formulate the metagame.

Emrakul needed to be banned. No doubt.

Copter was nothing without Inspector. It makes sense to why it was banned, as it pushed, it was the best form of card advantage for the aggro decks as they had nothing else to gain.

 

Mage was without Bant Company, mostly Collected Company. It was then oppressive more than it is now. Now, they just banned it as a catch.


You could easily just ban Emrakul and Thraben Inspector, both cards get bad.

[Poc]

I don't think dredge is dead without gravetroll. Just play thugs instead. The deck is slower but the powerful synergies still come from Narcomeboa and Bloodghast giving you free board presence for doing nothing but drawing cards. Narcomeboa might go to jail too if dredge still puts up results. Probe is unexpected but unsurprising. Phyrexian mana is really broken, especially the "free" phyrexian spells. Probe gave a ton of utility to infect, kiln fiend and other all in aggro decks. Also, any excuse to push storm further into the dirt, wizards will take. 

 

The standard bans are really surprising though. They make it a point to not ban stuff in standard but I guess this format really made them rethink that. Especially since none of these cards see play in other formats.

[Simping For Hina]

Probe ban practically killed Suicide Zoo. It loses consistency, ability to play around things, and the best card in the deck. Street Wraith is now the best card in the deck.

[Medivh]

The nature of these bans have me very concerned for how Standard is handled going forward. Yes, Emrakul and Copter were both cancerous in their own ways. Yes, Reflector Mage would probably be too powerful in a format without Smuggler's Copter -- but none of the three pillars of Standard (flash, vehicles, and delirium) were putting up ban-worthy numbers. If anything, the only card that should have been banned based on raw metagame percentage in the past six years was Collected Company, and Wizards seemed to think that it was fine because it didn't win a Pro Tour or whatever. 

 

This is a change in the way they look at Standard. It means that any deck that puts up metagame shares that are just a little too much for Wizard's liking is going to get its key cards axed. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely grateful that Emrakul the Promised End no longer exists in Standard, but what I'm not a fan of is what this implies for the future. Now it's like Wizards has implemented a secret double rotation that they're going to use to "shake up the format" much like they did with Modern (which is a stupid way of banning things that ended after Modern stopped being a PT format) in order to make the Pro Tour more interesting and rake in more sweet advertisement cash. 

 

Now Wizards has brought one of the key Modern complaints to a format with a heap of issues that already keep people out of it -- not only will you have to pay a pretty large sum of cash at least once a year to keep your deck fresh, you also have to worry about your deck being too good and getting banned in a format which has historically been ban-free except in the most egregious of cases.

[Flame Dragon]

Yea, thats been the biggest question mark for me. Why now? When Rhino was running around all over standard nothing was done. When the battle/fetch mana base made standard a mess of all the best cards and was actively pricing people out nothing was done. When CoCo was the deck to beat and remained as such despite everyone trying to nothing was done. Nothing about this standard format seems anything as bad as the last time things had to go, so why now?

[Poc]

Yea, thats been the biggest question mark for me. Why now? When Rhino was running around all over standard nothing was done. When the battle/fetch mana base made standard a mess of all the best cards and was actively pricing people out nothing was done. When CoCo was the deck to beat and remained as such despite everyone trying to nothing was done. Nothing about this standard format seems anything as bad as the last time things had to go, so why now?

dwindling FNM numbers and the string of recent complaints about standard seems to have got wizards attention. Hopefully RnD takes this as a wakeup call and relook at their current design philosophy for standard. If creatures like Reflector mage were just instant speed spells it would not be anywhere as oppressive. Slapping g strong spells on good creature bodies really skews how the standard meta game forms and puts too much emphasis on the combat step which is only a small part of one's turn. Magic is feeling less like magic and more like hearthstone every set.

[Simping For Hina]

I just want some funking transparency from Wizards. Where they get their data, what are they withholding, etc. I know that there are somethings to hide, but give us something more.

[Flame Dragon]

I just want some funking transparency from Wizards. Where they get their data, what are they withholding, etc. I know that there are somethings to hide, but give us something more.

A lot of their data comes from MTGO. I know it was said on twitter that UW flash had only one sub 50% match up and it was BR aggro at 49%. They do release a fait bit of MTGO data, but they aren't going to release the bulk of it for obvious reasons.

[Simping For Hina]

A lot of their data comes from MTGO. I know it was said on twitter that UW flash had only one sub 50% match up and it was BR aggro at 49%. They do release a fait bit of MTGO data, but they aren't going to release the bulk of it for obvious reasons.

That is pretty shitty if they use MTGO.

[Flame Dragon]

That is pretty shitty if they use MTGO.

MTGO is really the best place to get data though since it has such a massive volume of games played and is super easy for WotC to track. Though I can see why this has issues.

[Poc]

MTGO is really the best place to get data though since it has such a massive volume of games played and is super easy for WotC to track. Though I can see why this has issues.

 

Yea, MTGO metagame =/= Paper Metagame. Although there is no denying these cards were way over represented in standard.

 

Also, after doing some playtesting with dredge today, the deck is still dumb. You just play Thugs Instead of grave trolls. It still wins game 1 the majority of the time and grave hate out of the board is still the best way to stop the deck. Since its major competitors also got neutered a bit harder with git probe banning dredge still seems really well positioned in modern.

[Sixty]

emrakul was making standard dreary. looter scooter was annoying but not oppressive, and reflector mage basically made me lose every game he was resolved on the other side of. aether revolt spoilers were basically "yeah this is cool, but emrakul's still in the format" for me. i feel standard, at least in my meta, will grow into something more fun and interactive.

 

 

or maybe someone just builds hard control and ruins my day, but that's magic. 

[Flame Dragon]

emrakul was making standard dreary. looter scooter was annoying but not oppressive, and reflector mage basically made me lose every game he was resolved on the other side of. aether revolt spoilers were basically "yeah this is cool, but emrakul's still in the format" for me. i feel standard, at least in my meta, will grow into something more fun and interactive.

 

 

or maybe someone just builds hard control and ruins my day, but that's magic.

I do think the format will be better off with those 3 gone, but the question is more so "was it really that bad that this was needed to be done".

 

Though I think the bigger question is if the new twin will be banned in 2 or so months. If the deck is even some what good I see it getting the ax.

[Poc]

I do think the format will be better off with those 3 gone, but the question is more so "was it really that bad that this was needed to be done".

 

Though I think the bigger question is if the new twin will be banned in 2 or so months. If the deck is even some what good I see it getting the ax.

 

 

Its hard to say. Splinter Twin was so good because half the combo was instant speed and you could wait till the last minute to decide to commit to the combo. This one is much more awkward to pull off since in best case scenario, you have to tap out t3, give your opponent a turn to find an answer then tap out again t4. Sahili is pretty fragile too. It should also be noted that the removal in standard is ridiculously bad right now so it might be viable until they start printing better answers. Sam Stoddard's latest article addresses this point and says they're going to be pushing removal a bit more in the coming years.

[Simping For Hina]

I do think the format will be better off with those 3 gone, but the question is more so "was it really that bad that this was needed to be done".

 

Though I think the bigger question is if the new twin will be banned in 2 or so months. If the deck is even some what good I see it getting the ax.

Shock helps a lot from the aggro decks of the format. Definitely not a game winning combo.

[bury the year]

I do think the format will be better off with those 3 gone, but the question is more so "was it really that bad that this was needed to be done".

 

Though I think the bigger question is if the new twin will be banned in 2 or so months. If the deck is even some what good I see it getting the ax.

Sam Stoddard has confirmed that Copycat is on their ban watchlist.

[Flame Dragon]

Sam Stoddard has confirmed that Copycat is on their ban watchlist.

That was a good article for the hows and whys of the ban. Also answers my question of "why now". I can agree with the sentiments that the most recent banning during Caw-Blade and Affinity aren't a good bench mark for when to take action.

 

I'm curious if the Copycat deck was something they knew about during testing and just thought it wouldn't be good enough or if they somehow missed it. I'm hoping they answer that question at some point.

[Poc]

I think it was intentional. The FFL might not have the best record for card assessment but I'm sure they spotted this before the set was even done being designed.