Question about Card Wording with a new Archetype

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

Hello there so basically the archetype I am working on is one that focuses on fantasy support for the Traptrix monsters. I don't want to call the name Traptrix, as it seems to me Konami wants to leave it as a main family of 5 monsters, so instead I am going to make a sub-archetype on them. My problem is the wording of this effect of them when it comes to them counting as both Traptrix monsters and Hole Normal Trap Cards. Here is the wording I am using now.

 

"(This card is also treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card and as a "Traptrix" monster for the effects of "Traptrix" and "Tryxxx" monsters)."

 

At first I thought nothing of the wording until I realized that if I do that then basically none of their beneficial effects word work with its own archetype and the Traptrix archetype due to the fact that both would be unaffected by these effects as all Traptrix monsters and the monsters I am making have this passive effect

 

"This card is unaffected by the effects of "Hole" Normal Trap Cards."

 

The quotes aren't in the card, but the question is how can I have these monster's count as Hole Normal Trap Cards while having their effects like Special Summoning Traptrix monsters work on them, is there a way to word it right?

 

Edit: Here is the card lore in case someone was curious

Lore:

Tryxxx Silk Spider

LEVEL 4 EARTH

Insect-type

ATK  / 1900   DEF / 900 

Effect: (This card is also treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card and as a "Traptrix" monster for the effects of "Traptrix" and "Tryxxx" monsters).

This card is unaffected by the effects of "Hole" Normal Trap Cards. When a "Hole" Normal Trap Card is activated you can Special Summon this card (from your hand, or Graveyard). Once per turn you can Special Summon 1 "Traptrix" or "Tryxxx" monster from your Deck, or add 1 "Hole" Normal Trap Card from your Graveyard to your hand. You can Set this card from your hand in your Spell & Trap zone as a Trap card. If you do it gains this effect: When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can Negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to your Graveyard.

[shadowsapex]

I dunno man, that's starting to look really cluttered.

I'll do a general OCG fix.

 

(This card is always treated as a "Traptrix" monster.)

This card is unaffected by the effects of "Hole" Normal Trap Cards. This card is also treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card while in the hand, Deck, Graveyard, or while banished, with this effect.

● When your opponent would Summons a monster(s): You can negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to the Graveyard.

You can Set this card from your hand to your Spell & Trap Zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If a "Hole" Normal Trap Card is activated: You can Special Summon this card from your hand or Graveyard. Once per turn: You can Special Summon 1 "Traptrix" or "Tryxxx" monster from your Deck, or add 1 "Hole" Normal Trap Card from your Graveyard to your hand.

 

You don't really have to make it treated as a Hole trap card while banished, right? None of the Traptrix support interacts with the banished zone, so unless you're making support that does, it's not necessary.

I've included Darj's suggestion for the placement of the Trap effect, though what I'd advise you to do is give up on having it work with Atrax entirely. It's really not necessary, makes the wording of the card a whole lot more complicated (and it already is complicated enough), is probably going to wind up with some weird rulings or interactions, and generally isn't something Konami would make. And putting a clause on the card specifically for Atrax is going too far.

[Darj]

I think the above version can actually work with Atrax now without the need of additional clauses or PSCTs, since the Normal Trap effect is build-in in the card even when the card is in the hand, rather than having to gain the effect as it did before.

By the way, the "would" in the Trap effect shouldn't be removed; it is also used in Traps like "Black Horn of Heaven".

 

And yeah, in my previous reply I was referring to the PSCT/clause on Atrax, which I agree was too much. Thumbs up to shadowliepard for the text fix that got rid of it xD

[Darj]

You could make them be treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card only when they are Set as a Normal Trap Card. That way, their own protections shouldn't interfere with each other and the Traptrix, since they will only be "Hole" Trap Cards while they are Set on the field and when resolving their Trap-Card-mode effects.

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

You could make them be treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card only when they are Set as a Normal Trap Card. That way, their own protections shouldn't interfere with each other and the Traptrix, since they will only be "Hole" Trap Cards while they are Set on the field and when resolving their Trap-Card-mode effects.

I could do that, basically mention while in the spell/trap zone they are treated as a Hole Normal Trap card, but I don't know if that would still allow them to be used via traptrix effects like Myrmeleo, and Atrax. Like when Myrmeleo is normal summoned could she still search the deck for one, or Atrax still being able to use them from the hand?

[Darj]

Ah, right. They wouldn't be searchable by Myrmeleo anymore, for instance. Then it's tricky, yeah. Your best best is shadowliepard's suggestion, I guess; plus add "hand" to the effect she suggested. I too am not sure if "unaffected" effects also apply on cards inside the Deck, but I have a hunch that they don't.

Although, you wouldn't be able to play these guys from the hand as Normal Traps through Atrax since they must first be Set to then gain their Normal Trap-mode effects; also I'm not sure how Atrax's interaction with these monsters will be; for example, will Atrax allow you to activate the monster effect of Silk Spider while it is the hand and without the need of summoning it?

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

Okay then thanks for the help I do have other Tryxxx monsters, but I didn't give them heavy if any graveyard floating abilities to begin with so Shadowliepard's suggestion works really Well. I took that into account now when rewording silk spider, so tell me what you think of this.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lore:

Tryxxx Silk Spider

Level 4 EARTH

Insect-type

ATK / 1900   DEF / 900

(This card is also treated as a "Traptrix" monster for the effects of "Traptrix" monsters).

This card is unaffected by the effects of "Hole" Normal Trap Cards. This card is also treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card while in the hand, Deck, Graveyard, or Banished zone. When a "Hole" Normal Trap Card is activated you can Special Summon this card (from your hand, or Graveyard). Once per turn you can Special Summon 1 "Traptrix" or "Tryxxx" monster from your Deck, or add 1 "Hole" Normal Trap Card from your Graveyard to your hand. You can Set this card from your hand in your Spell & Trap zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If you do it gains this effect: When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can Negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to your Graveyard.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I realised that since the monsters abilities for this archetype focus on Special Summoning or working with Traptrix monsters are on the field. If they count as Hole Normal Trap Cards from everywhere else it will work so thanks again for Shadowliepard for making me realize that. As for your question Darj the idea with Attrax would be sharing its anti trap negation with their effects when they are set as Hole Normal Trap Cards while also allowing their when they are set effects to be utilized from the hand as well.

 

Edit: Realized also that I would need to include the word also that it way it counts as both. That part is important for the new archetype's effects themselves.

[Darj]

I see, then the last part won't work as intended, since Silk Spider only gains the Normal-Trap-mode effect only after being Set, so trying to use said effect from the hand through Atrax wouldn't work as technically it doesn't have that effect yet in the first place. You will have to reword it somehow to make the Normal Trap Effect accessible by Atrax.

By the way, "Banished Zone" isn't an official term in YGO; you have to use alternate terms like "while banished", "while it is banished", etc.

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

Got it so would this work then? 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You can Set this card from your hand in your Spell & Trap zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If you do it gains this effect: When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can Negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card (this effect is treated as the effect of "Hole" Normal Trap Card), also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to your Graveyard.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Since that effect is specified as the Hole Normal Trap Card effect do you think that would allow that effect only to be activated by hand?

[Darj]

The thing is, with that wording, for Silk Spider to gain the Normal Trap Effect, it first has to fulfill the condition of being Set as a Trap Card. So, it doesn't have that pseudo-Trap effect while it is on hand.

What you can do is to unbind the Trap effect to the requirement of setting it as a Trap Card first, and/or not make it as an effect that is gained. But I haven't figured out how to write it yet.

Maybe something like "This card is also treated as a Normal Trap Card with this effect: [insert Trap effect here]", which would apply at all times, including in the hand? Sort of like a reverse Trap Monster.

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

 

I dunno man, that's starting to look really cluttered.

I'll do a general OCG fix.

 

(This card is always treated as a "Traptrix" monster.)

This card is unaffected by the effects of "Hole" Normal Trap Cards. This card is also treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card while in the hand, Deck, Graveyard, or while banished, with this effect.

● When your opponent would Summons a monster(s): You can negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to the Graveyard.

You can Set this card from your hand to your Spell & Trap Zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If a "Hole" Normal Trap Card is activated: You can Special Summon this card from your hand or Graveyard. Once per turn: You can Special Summon 1 "Traptrix" or "Tryxxx" monster from your Deck, or add 1 "Hole" Normal Trap Card from your Graveyard to your hand.

 

You don't really have to make it treated as a Hole trap card while banished, right? None of the Traptrix support interacts with the banished zone, so unless you're making support that does, it's not necessary.

I've included Darj's suggestion for the placement of the Trap effect, though what I'd advise you to do is give up on having it work with Atrax entirely. It's really not necessary, makes the wording of the card a whole lot more complicated (and it already is complicated enough), is probably going to wind up with some weird rulings or interactions, and generally isn't something Konami would make. And putting a clause on the card specifically for Atrax is going too far.

 

The banished part is simply because the archetype I am making myself does have its own way to get back Trap Hole cards while banished. I do like the change there. It does make it less cluttered, but I am curious now with that wording, would gain that effect when it is Hole Normal Trap Card or would that be while its on the field as well, also if it is set does that mean it then gains the above effect, lastly for the questions involving this part of the Trap Hole effect. Should I state during either player's turn, or is that covered by the mechanics of it being a Trap card? Also with always does that mean it is now just a Traptrix monster, or does it still have its original archetype as well? Okay then I will stop with Atrax interacting with the cards then. I do agree it can cause a problem with the wording as it did, and yea I'll just remove the banished wording as well. Yea sorry about that PSCT is something I am still learning, so thanks a lot for the help.

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

The thing is, with that wording, for Silk Spider to gain the Normal Trap Effect, it first has to fulfill the condition of being Set as a Trap Card. So, it doesn't have that pseudo-Trap effect while it is on hand.

What you can do is to unbind the Trap effect to the requirement of setting it as a Trap Card first, and/or not make it as an effect that is gained. But I haven't figured out how to write it yet.

Maybe something like "This card is also treated as a Normal Trap Card with this effect: [insert Trap effect here]", which would apply at all times, including in the hand? Sort of like a reverse Trap Monster.

I think I sort of get what you are saying. So something more like this then?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You can Set this card from your hand in your Spell & Trap zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If you do it gains this effect: When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can Negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card (if you control a "Traptrix Atrax" this effect can be used from the hand, by discarding this card from your hand), also send this card (from your Spell & Trap Zone) to your Graveyard.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

[Darj]

Uh, you are going deep with the overly specific PSCT but yeah, that should work.

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

Uh, you are going deep with the overly specific PSCT but yeah, that should work.

Yea sorry lol. I should just say by discarding it then. Well thanks a lot for your help.

[shadowsapex]

Even if it has the Traptrix archetype condition, it still keeps its name.

Well, there is currently no precedence for a card that sometimes treats itself as a trap card and gains an effect while it's a trap. So all those things you mentioned - does it gain the effect if set, is it a spell speed 2 effect, etc - since those are things that most people would assume this monster can do, and since you're inventing a new card mechanic here, you can probably just assume that yes, those things are included in the 'being a trap card' clause. In the interests of simplifying card text and whatnot.

Though if you don't need the interaction with Atrax, we can just go back to the effect's previous form:

You can Set this card from your hand to your Spell & Trap Zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If you do, it gains this effect.

● When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card to the Graveyard.

 

Always happy to help!

[Raptor_Fan_Heilos]

Even if it has the Traptrix archetype condition, it still keeps its name.

Well, there is currently no precedence for a card that sometimes treats itself as a trap card and gains an effect while it's a trap. So all those things you mentioned - does it gain the effect if set, is it a spell speed 2 effect, etc - since those are things that most people would assume this monster can do, and since you're inventing a new card mechanic here, you can probably just assume that yes, those things are included in the 'being a trap card' clause. In the interests of simplifying card text and whatnot.

Though if you don't need the interaction with Atrax, we can just go back to the effect's previous form:

You can Set this card from your hand to your Spell & Trap Zone as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card. If you do, it gains this effect.

● When your opponent would Summon a monster(s): You can negate the Summon, and if you do, destroy that card, also send this card to the Graveyard.

 

Always happy to help!

 

Okay then I think I get it now. If I want the interaction then I can mention the new wording, but if I want to just forget about it I can just go back to the old wording. I will stick with the new wording as their will be some hand interaction that this archetype will have, so it will just be better to stick with this. Thank you so much for the extra help.

[shadowsapex]

Well, if their Traptrix support effects take place on the field or in hand, you could have "this card is treated as a "Hole" Normal Trap Card while in the Deck or Graveyard." That's where most of the Traptrix support for Hole traps work.

I'm pretty sure 'unaffected' doesn't apply in the deck, so Silk Spider should be fine. Don't quote me on that though.