Discord is Damaging YCM

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Especially TCG/OCG

 

 

This is how it works.

 

The old guard members of YCM have in large part migrated to Discord. 

 

When a new card is released it's easier to talk about it on Discord, instead of making a topic and all. Seems all fine and dandy.

 

The problem is, newer members don't start off on discord, they look to the TCG section here on YCM. If there's a lack of activity, as the discord cannibalization would impart, they lose interesting and don't post much either

 

The end result is the YGO community on YCM won't grow, and will only shrink as traditional YGO players slowly leave the game, and no one replenishes their numbers (ie. Giga, Phil, me, Koko to name a few)

 

Also isn't it kinda obnoxious to talk about one card to one person, and then have a discussion about another card going on between other people in discord?

 

Chat moves so fast and there's no chat history which kinda make convos hard IMO

 

Anyway, something needs to be done if we wanna save YCM's activity cause these days it seems like General is doing all the work on this forum

[Delibirb]

Though your logic appears mostly sound, what can be done? We can't ban people from Discord so they have to stay on the forum.

 

We need to try harder to make the forum a better location for discussion by comparison. Part of that means working on handling and preventing toxicity within the TCG & OCG Card Discussion section, but part of it is attracting and welcoming new members. Both of which will require effort. But there will still always be Discord, and as we can't exactly hide it from new members, there will always be some splinter taking part in discussions over there.

[Blake]

It's not actually happening, at least not to the degree you're implying.

 

The section is still somewhat active at the given intervals (Banlists, V-Jumps, Leaks), and it's not much less active in general outside of those.

 

There is a chat history. Last I checked, server is set up to have chat history recorded, even for newcomers.

 

The point about talking about more than 1 card at once doesn't really hold.

 

YCM's CFV players have been doing this for literal years now, though it started as a group on Skype. It's more efficient than clunky posting, most of the time.

 

We aren't going to close the server, so unless you have ways to revitalize the site, such as the three-to-four recent events, there's not much point to this.

[Maeriberii Haan]

I feel, at least regarding TCG/OCG in general, it's really just because the number of active players that contributed a big chunk to discussions back then had since been long gone for one reason or another. Discord takes a chunk of what's left of the activity on the section outside of reveals time, but even then it's hard to get discussion started without dedicated quality posters being active there, stimulating discussions.

 

Though, it's kinda inevitable in the end for chatrooms to take activity away from the site. Happens with Roleplay OOC and Skype, and it's at times kind of inevitable. Though, while we can nuke the discord...that really won't solve anything.

 

Anyway, regarding chat history, discord's chat history navigation is really meh compared to skype since you can't look for specific words/topics with ctrl+f and to check it you ends up having to scroll through the entire log, fifty messages at a time. It's such a pain to check the chat history in any remotely active room to the point that might as not factor it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's not actually happening, at least not to the degree you're implying.

 

The section is still somewhat active at the given intervals (Banlists, V-Jumps, Leaks), and it's not much less active in general outside of those.

 

There is a chat history. Last I checked, server is set up to have chat history recorded, even for newcomers.

 

The point about talking about more than 1 card at once doesn't really hold.

 

YCM's CFV players have been doing this for literal years now, though it started as a group on Skype. It's more efficient than clunky posting, most of the time.

 

We aren't going to close the server, so unless you have ways to revitalize the site, such as the three-to-four recent events, there's not much point to this.

Nai got what I was talking about, like you can't search for key words, so say Kaiji mentions a cool combo last night, I go to bed and wake up this morning. It's a real pain in the ass to find it this morning after like 500 people have talked

 

I'm not getting exactly what benefit the discord server provided. If post quality is shitty here, crack down on that to make it less clunky, cannibalizing the forum does shut out new members. How many new members are posting in TCG/OCG? You have posts that are the top post that last for DAYS Black. It's never been that bad before

I feel, at least regarding TCG/OCG in general, it's really just because the number of active players that contributed a big chunk to discussions back then had since been long gone for one reason or another. Discord takes a chunk of what's left of the activity on the section outside of reveals time, but even then it's hard to get discussion started without dedicated quality posters being active there, stimulating discussions.

 

Though, it's kinda inevitable in the end for chatrooms to take activity away from the site. Happens with Roleplay OOC and Skype, and it's at times kind of inevitable. Though, while we can nuke the discord...that really won't solve anything.

 

Anyway, regarding chat history, discord's chat history navigation is really meh compared to skype since you can't look for specific words/topics with ctrl+f and to check it you ends up having to scroll through the entire log, fifty messages at a time. It's such a pain to check the chat history in any remotely active room to the point that might as not factor it.

Why wouldn't it. The only regular posters TCG/OCG has lost are me, giga, and Phil. Election has kept me busy, Giga had life, but is coming back. We should theoretically be able to bring the forum back to 2015 levels

 

Learn from the discord, there were sections there that generated activity, so make analogous sections here. Letting the forum die for convenience seems...wrong

Though your logic appears mostly sound, what can be done? We can't ban people from Discord so they have to stay on the forum.

 

We need to try harder to make the forum a better location for discussion by comparison. Part of that means working on handling and preventing toxicity within the TCG & OCG Card Discussion section, but part of it is attracting and welcoming new members. Both of which will require effort. But there will still always be Discord, and as we can't exactly hide it from new members, there will always be some splinter taking part in discussions over there.

Kill the server 

[Miror B]

Kill the server and people will just make their own.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Just taking from 2015 where the decline starts, back then we still have hoppy/phil, giga, you, black (far less active now in the section compared to back then), zauls, koko kinda counts too since I think she was actually around in TCG/OCG back then, klav (whether people like him or not is another issue but he contributes a lot to the section's activity), masao occasionally appears and drop some nuggets, and even that aside, there's quite more people that were less in touch but contributed a chunk of activity too, like me and some others. Most of the people mentioned here pretty much starts disappearing by the end of 2015, and it's been a continuous decline ever since. And I'm sure I forgot several names here too.

 

Of course I'd really like it if Discord people like Kaiji is more active in the forum itself, but with what we have at the moment I doubt it will change much activity-wise.

 

And I don't mean that it's inevitable that the forum dies to chatrooms (although it was definitely the biggest worry regarding YCM having a chatroom back then before discord's a thing), it's just that it's hard to reverse the activities taken by chatrooms from the forum itself. Nuking discord, at least for the time being, wouldn't give enough foreseeable benefit (more forum activity) I believe. Might do it in the long run, but it's a lot of gamble and the general short-mid term benefit isn't really convincing (without discord people won't suddenly be active in the forum if they're not motivated to post in the forum in the first place).

 

Quality and activity of TCG/OCG won't suddenly increase without the presence of more active players that brings more topics to discuss. And on that front there's not much that Discord cannibalized from the subforum since there wasn't even much to cannibalize in the first place.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Just taking from 2015 where the decline starts, back then we still have hoppy/phil, giga, you, black (far less active now in the section compared to back then), zauls, koko kinda counts too since I think she was actually around in TCG/OCG back then, klav (whether people like him or not is another issue but he contributes a lot to the section's activity), masao occasionally appears and drop some nuggets, and even that aside, there's quite more people that were less in touch but contributed a chunk of activity too, like me and some others. Most of the people mentioned here pretty much starts disappearing by the end of 2015, and it's been a continuous decline ever since. And I'm sure I forgot several names here too.

 

Of course I'd really like it if Discord people like Kaiji is more active in the forum itself, but with what we have at the moment I doubt it will change much activity-wise.

 

And I don't mean that it's inevitable that the forum dies to chatrooms (although it was definitely the biggest worry regarding YCM having a chatroom back then before discord's a thing), it's just that it's hard to reverse the activities taken by chatrooms from the forum itself. Nuking discord, at least for the time being, wouldn't give enough foreseeable benefit (more forum activity) I believe. Might do it in the long run, but it's a lot of gamble and the general short-mid term benefit isn't really convincing (without discord people won't suddenly be active in the forum if they're not motivated to post in the forum in the first place).

 

Quality and activity of TCG/OCG won't suddenly increase without the presence of more active players that brings more topics to discuss. And on that front there's not much that Discord cannibalized from the subforum since there wasn't even much to cannibalize in the first place.

so what do you suggest nai?

 

old format tournies? 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I just don't like that people keep telling me to get Discord :T

idk, I haven't seen it much so I assume it's mostly TCG stuff. Granted I have seen things like

>Someone posts a status about a thing

>Someone comments "Yeah we already talked about it on Discord"

While I don't mind it being there and I don't think it's too harmful I do think sometimes there's slight...exclusion of people who don't get Discord/don't want to be on a YCM chat maybe?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

While discord is a very useful tool, it shouldn't be encouraged as the main means of discussion. Many members don't want to be there, and since it isn't publicly accessible it prevents new members from participating in discussions.

[dartz10]

YCM needs the capability to create Pendulum Monsters. This will boost the number of people using YCM.

[~British Soul~]

Granted I have seen things like

>Someone posts a status about a thing

>Someone comments "Yeah we already talked about it on Discord"

I've seen that as well, and I find myself thinking "Not everyone has Discord though" every time.

[Blake]

While discord is a very useful tool, it shouldn't be encouraged as the main means of discussion. Many members don't want to be there, and since it isn't publicly accessible it prevents new members from participating in discussions.

but it is publicly accessible??

 

The link is available somewhere on site. I forget where, but pretty sure it's in news.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

The link's been given around in sporadic statuses, but don't think it was posted in News or anywhere more permanent.

 

YCM needs the capability to create Pendulum Monsters. This will boost the number of people using YCM.

 

Realize that even if we do get Pendulums at some point at time, it's not a guarantee that people will use YCM more.

 

----

But yeah, from my observations of the YCM Discord (I'm on it too, albeit very rarely), most of the members who are on it are veterans (there are exceptions, yes). TCG areas have been bare recently, but I won't comment on that much further.

 

CC is still active daily (well, main areas anyway), even if by the same people. There are some members who post in that channel on Discord, yes, but not a lot.

 

In the past, the staff had discouraged the addition of a chat room for this reason: Would take away activity from the forum and draw it to that chat area. That, and misbehavior would be harder to crack down on (basically, if something goes on there, can we penalize you HERE or the chat is considered separate and wouldn't apply?). Latter was something mentioned amongst ourselves some time ago (at this point, chat is being considered as an extension).

[Blake]

https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/359408-ycm-discord-server/

 

Remedied the publicity issue. Was meant to be done ages ago, anyway, and it can surely be added to the "Other" drop down for the 2edgy4me skin.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Even with it more available, it doesn't change the problem. Not everybody uses discord, and not everybody wants to be in that server. Though it can supplement discussion on the forums, it should not substitute it.

 

(Also, if the discord server is going to be publicly promoted on the forum, it should be held to the same moderation and content standards, but that is another discussion for another day)

[Blake]

Even with it more available, it doesn't change the problem. Not everybody uses discord, and not everybody wants to be in that server. Though it can supplement discussion on the forums, it should not substitute it.

(Also, if the discord server is going to be publicly promoted on the forum, it should be held to the same moderation and content standards, but that is another discussion for another day)

that isn't a problem. That's life.

 

There is no problem, because this is nothing but a more inclusive server instead of a number of side servers where groups mingle amongst themselves, as opposed to intermingling.

 

If you choose to not be involved in said large group, that is your choice. But it's on the one who chooses such, not those who choose to be included. There are no different Discord groups, and the "X was talked about on Discord..." isn't really different from "Y and I talked about X..." or "we talked about X in Z Skype group."

 

You can't force people to care more about subforums that are less efficient/quality (TCG, seemingly OOC) because not everyone wants to use them.

 

And we can't "enforce quality" in TCG. I've thought up many ways to do so, and none of them have worked/would work. You can't make people improve, and the instantaneous nature of discord + higher average quality per poster is nice. Abolishing discord wouldn't remove said issue.

 

And, as said on the discord (teehee), the site still serves a purpose, which I alluded to earlier: mass reveals.

 

It only emphasizes the downtimes between said reveals.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

You are ignoring my point and arguing against something I'm not even advocating for.

There is no problem, because this is nothing but a more inclusive server instead of a number of side servers where groups mingle amongst themselves, as opposed to intermingling.

First off, other discord servers for the forum can and do exist, namely the creative writing group I am a part of. Hell, there is an MTG Skype group with daily discussion. Second... I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm not advocating for tons of different groups, nor am I saying the server should be dissolved.

If you choose to not be involved in said large group, that is your choice. But it's on the one who chooses such, not those who choose to be included.

That is absolutely correct. I chose to leave the server for personal reasons, and that is completely on me.

There are no different Discord groups, and the "X was talked about on Discord..." isn't really different from "Y and I talked about X..." or "we talked about X in Z Skype group."

This is also correct. The problem lies in when this is used in a manner that discourages activity on the forum itself. Some members want to discuss TCG on the forum, and multiple times, typically in statuses, have said things about the game, only to be responded to with "this was discussed in discord zzzz".

 

This is a problem. Even if something has been discussed in discord, even if it has been discussed to death, that should not mean it shouldn't be discussed on the forums. You don't have to participate. Koko doesn't. Kaiji doesn't. If you don't want to post on the forum, that's funking fine. But creating and reiterating a mindset that discourages posting is ridiculous.

You can't force people to care more about subforums that are less efficient/quality (TCG, seemingly OOC) because not everyone wants to use them.

Once again, you are correct. Forcing people to post makes no sense. However, as you already stated, discussion in discord is equivalent to an outside conversation, or a discussion in a Skype group, rather than a post. For discussion to happen in both places is in no way redundant.

 

Also, as a side note, OOC isn't a very apt comparison, as RPs are organized between a select group of people rather than the entire tcg community. Having discussion separate from ycm has far more benefits in this circumstance. But that's neither here nor there.

And we can't "enforce quality" in TCG. I've thought up many ways to do so, and none of them have worked/would work. You can't make people improve, and the instantaneous nature of discord + higher average quality per poster is nice. Abolishing discord wouldn't remove said issue.

I made no claims about this whatsoever, so I'm gonna assume this is a response to winter.

[DereResonating]

Maybe we could start reaching out to some more people interested in ygo through social media. Let people know there is a place for not only creativity, but also fun. Maybe there are ygo players that haven't even heard of this site. Maybe they just go to Yugico (I think that's the name) to make cards and discuss. I am not completely confident in these solutions, but, along the lines of just spitballing, I think reaching out to newer ygo players and enthusiasts who don't know us would jumpstart our activity, as there is many things here to enjoy and talk about.

 

Before ycm becomes infested with brand new posts, cards, and members, of course, the community of ycm may have to help as much as possible, instead of just mods. I will think about this some more. Btw, I am pretty sure that something like this has already been suggested a lot, but I thought that just in case it hasn't been suggested, I should put it out there. Any thoughts on this?

[Sleepy]

I have heard about this discord group for a while now, and I made small searches for the link in the public places I thought it'd be at, to no success.

I just assumed you had to be invited and I just, wasn't. I also haven't really learned how to use Discord well so I didn't even know public chats could be a thing.

It might be public but the lack of a link in an accessible area makes it look somewhat selective. Even if it wasn't intentional, and even for the people that do have Discord.

 

Yes it was NOW posted, but it needed to be in its own thread's OP at a permanent, public and easy to find location in the site. As said above: Ages ago.

 

Assuming it's big enough to matter and not just a 6 to 7 people chat like many out there, or else nobody would be making a thread to talk about this.

From what I read in the comments it sounds hard to keep track of everything over there, as any chat with multiple people would be and has been ever since the days of Messenger, but preferences are preferences so I guess nothing can really be done about it. I'm sure the chat must have its benefits too.

What can really be suggested about something like this?

 

I've been trying to create some activity for CC lately, without really lifting up a ton of dust, but well, that's my grain of sand for the forum as of right now. 

Not much else for me to do. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I have heard about this discord group for a while now, and I made small searches for the link in the public places I thought it'd be at, to no success.

I just assumed you had to be invited and I just, wasn't. I also haven't really learned how to use Discord well so I didn't even know public chats could be a thing.

It might be public but the lack of a link in an accessible area makes it look somewhat selective. Even if it wasn't intentional, and even for the people that do have Discord.

 

Yes it was NOW posted, but it needed to be in its own thread's OP at a permanent, public and easy to find location in the site. As said above: Ages ago.

 

Assuming it's big enough to matter and not just a 6 to 7 people chat like many out there, or else nobody would be making a thread to talk about this.

From what I read in the comments it sounds hard to keep track of everything over there, as any chat with multiple people would be and has been ever since the days of Messenger, but preferences are preferences so I guess nothing can really be done about it. I'm sure the chat must have its benefits too.

What can really be suggested about something like this?

 

I've been trying to create some activity for CC lately, without really lifting up a ton of dust, but well, that's my grain of sand for the forum as of right now. 

Not much else for me to do.

 

Your posts on TCG theory are always pretty thought creating

 

We need more outside the box stuff like what you and misty do

[mitchermitcher]

I know first hand deleting the chatbox won't do anything to restore YCM but how about just the TCG/OCG section of the discord server then? Keep Discord to mostly off-topic stuff and have actual topics covered by the forum kept there, maybe?