Political Ideology

[Sunshine Jesse]

I feel like the bolded might be more accurate

 

I 100% agree. Before Trump, the GOP was worse than the Dems. 

 

But yeah, I do come off as more mocking than I probs should, I'll work in that bit

They're still worse as a whole.

 

Both sides are corporate sellouts but only one party actually throws people a human-rights-bone once in a while.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

 

It feels to me like there's so many problems rooted with the whole "us vs. them" mentality that's so prevalent in western culture.

 

 

Have you found it to be any less prevalent a mentality in eastern cultures?

 

 

My biggest issue with Trump is that silly absolution in his statements and proposed solutions, that the ~only~ way to deal with immigrants is to have a police task force break down their door and drag them out of the country; that the ~only~ way to deal with instability in the middle east is to just send more bombs. There's no dialogue about any of these issues.

 

If "silly absolution in his statements and proposed solutions" is your biggest issue, addressing Trump's actual statements and proposed solutions would be a better way to showcase your listening skills than supplanting straw man arguments.

 

Trump said nothing of police task forces breaking down doors. He did however say the following:

 

 

I'm in favor of people coming into this country legally. As far as the visas are concerned, if we need people they have--it's fine. They have to come into this country legally. We have a country of laws. It's fine if they come in, but they have to come in legally.

 

 

We have at least 11 million people that came in illegally. They will go out. Some will come back, the best, through a process. They have to come back legally. It may not be a quick process, but I think that's fair. They're going to get in line with other people.

 

 

 

Trump's stance towards the Middle East is largely isolationist and his reference to bombing has been taken out of context. 

 

 

 

ISIS is making a tremendous amounts of money because of certain oil camps, certain areas of oil that they took away. They have some in Syria, some in Iraq. I would bomb the sheet out of 'em. I would just bomb those suckers. That's right, I'd blow up the pipes. I'd blow up every single inch. There would be nothing left.

 

 

The full quote makes it clear that he's not talking about indiscriminate bombing, but targeting oil deposits to hemorrhage ISIS's source of wealth. 

 

This is very different than Cruz's vow to "carpet bomb them into oblivion."

 

 

 

Maybe if both sides actually listened to each other more, we'd realize that there's merit to allowing abortion in certain cases, such as medical cases where human lives are at stake or even rape-related ones, while still supporting adoption networks and making information of alternatives more available. Maybe the solution to illegal immigrants is to actually give them a chance to become real, documented citizens and welcome them in instead of tossing them out. Who knows, but nobody is going to find the best solution to any situation by shutting their ears and discounting half the country simply for their views.

 

 

Listening and compromising are not the same thing. 

[VCR_CAT]

Have you found it to be any less prevalent a mentality in eastern cultures?

 

Can't say. I say Western because that's what I know, not that I think Eastern is any different. I don't know how tf politics operate in developed eastern nations.

 

If "silly absolution in his statements and proposed solutions" is your biggest issue, addressing Trump's actual statements and proposed solutions would be a better way to showcase your listening skills than supplanting straw man arguments.

 

Actually, if you look at the current election thread, you'll find I did post Trump's full 100 day plan including my thoughts on each policy to the best of my current understanding. Of course, that was ignored for the most part for less important/pressing issues. I understand where you're coming from, but the point of my post was to talk to about the dialogue between sides as a whole, and not any given, specific policy (the ones I bring up being examples to point towards the message of dialogue/listening as a whole). As well, this isn't about my listening skills as a whole; I'm not posting that with the intention of "Look at me I'm so much better"; I'm talking about an issue as a whole regarding western politics and how we're approaching our elections.

 

Trump said nothing of police task forces breaking down doors. He did however say the following:

 

He may not have said it explicitly, no. But could you please describe to me how 11 million people are going to "go out" willingly when their lives have been well established in the US by now? Are they going to get a letter and shrug, or is police action going to be needed? He may not have "said" it, but I can't see how a mass deportation of 11 million people is going to go over smoothly without police needing to break into some homes and drag them out. I could bring up the "Special Deportation Task Force", but that's just nitpicking something that's intended for dangerous criminals (and he has said that too).

 

And again, the problem with this immigration issue is that there's no dialogue over how to best address it. He walked up, said that "Nope, this is how it's going to happen and this is how it needs to happen". I get that there's the opportunity to "come back", but he's still kicking them out, and knowing how US immigration works now, and how absolutely messy the immigration court is; this isn't going to be a nice, clean effort. Lives are going to ruined and families are going to uprooted because of this policy, and the fact that it doesn't seem like there isn't any dialogue looking to find a better way to deal with this isn't a good sign.

 

These are millions of lives. Men, women, children, and families. There's absolutely no way kicking these people out and giving them "the opportunity" to come back is going to just work out nice and clean, that everything will be fine and dandy because our system is able to judge people and determine their futures based on how much value they think they'll hold towards the country as a whole. I could go on, honestly, because there's a lot about this plan and policy that I think is an absolutely terrible idea, but that's not what we're here to talk about.

 

Trump's stance towards the Middle East is largely isolationist and his reference to bombing has been taken out of context. 

 

You're taking my statement of "more bombs" too literally. I simply just mean more military involvement as a whole.

 

Listening and compromising are not the same thing. 

 

Nor did I say they are, but you can't have proper compromise without listening and understanding. Now, when I say "compromise", I don't mean the negative connotation of "backing down on values and wussing out"; I mean taking other viewpoints into proper consideration and coming to a middle ground that both parties can agree on, and giving up on some parts of the decision is a part of that. But what's important is that more people are brought into consideration, their voices are heard, and decisions are changed to help bring about a solution that everyone can agree on to the best of our abilities.

 

If a given party isn't listening to what the other has to say, then there can't and won't be a proper compromise.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Trump hasn't said 11 Million in forever. It's down to 2-3 Mill immigrants who commit crimes, the number of Illegals in that value is about 800k-1Mill

 

He'll build the wall (already in talks with the guys who build the Israel Wall), and then give pathway to legal status

[VCR_CAT]

Trump hasn't said 11 Million in forever. It's down to 2-3 Mill immigrants who commit crimes, the number of Illegals in that value is about 800k-1Mill

 

He'll build the wall (already in talks with the guys who build the Israel Wall), and then give pathway to legal status

 

I'd rather a different thread be brought up for the discussion of the issue of immigration. For the time being in this thread, let's try to stick to the topic at hand; the issue of the growing divide between people simply because of political alignment.

[IQuitDolphin]

What I find interesting is that liberals seem to end relationships with those that voted for Trump much more than those on the right seem to end relationships with those that voted for Hilary. And I'm not talking about the crazy people on the spectrum (BLM, KKK, etc.). I'm talking regular working-class people who voted. It really points out how much more those on the left value politics in their lives compared to those on the right; the left LIVES for politics, while those on the right don't seem to be so "excited" about it. This is a very broad generalization (especially considering how vocal the alt-right movement is) but it is true to an extent.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

What I find interesting is that liberals seem to end relationships with those that voted for Trump much more than those on the right seem to end relationships with those that voted for Hilary. And I'm not talking about the crazy people on the spectrum (BLM, KKK, etc.). I'm talking regular working-class people who voted. It really points out how much more those on the left value politics in their lives compared to those on the right; the left LIVES for politics, while those on the right don't seem to be so "excited" about it. This is a very broad generalization (especially considering how vocal the alt-right movement is) but it is true to an extent.

That makes a lot of sense tbh. If HRC won it would be the other way around. They didn't like the result, so they blame those who voted for him.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That makes a lot of sense tbh. If HRC won it would be the other way around. They didn't like the result, so they blame those who voted for him.

Err this was even before the results iirc. HRC supporters were far more likely to say they could not date a Trump voter. I'll find the politco piece on it

[a bad post]

What I find interesting is that liberals seem to end relationships with those that voted for Trump much more than those on the right seem to end relationships with those that voted for Hilary. And I'm not talking about the crazy people on the spectrum (BLM, KKK, etc.). I'm talking regular working-class people who voted. It really points out how much more those on the left value politics in their lives compared to those on the right; the left LIVES for politics, while those on the right don't seem to be so "excited" about it. This is a very broad generalization (especially considering how vocal the alt-right movement is) but it is true to an extent.

Many people are worried about the American that President-Elect Trump will create, imo have very legitimate reasons to do so yeah it makes sense that they're severing relationships with people who they feel don't care about them. Like my drawing teacher unfriended a bunch of his family on Facebook when and after Trump won, because of the racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. things that they were saying. I mean sure you have some people who are extreme about it, but pick any group of people and you will find those with extreme ideologies. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Many people are worried about the American that President-Elect Trump will create, imo have very legitimate reasons to do so yeah it makes sense that they're severing relationships with people who they feel don't care about them. Like my drawing teacher unfriended a bunch of his family on Facebook when and after Trump won, because of the racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. things that they were saying. I mean sure you have some people who are extreme about it, but pick any group of people and you will find those with extreme ideologies. 

What would it take? Pence affirming Trump's support for same sex marriage? Cause he repudiated basically every stance he formerly held to go full Trumpist on the Hannity interview today. Would that do it for you?

 

I'm honestly not sure what you guys want

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Many people are worried about the American that President-Elect Trump will create, imo have very legitimate reasons to do so yeah it makes sense that they're severing relationships with people who they feel don't care about them. Like my drawing teacher unfriended a bunch of his family on Facebook when and after Trump won, because of the racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. things that they were saying. I mean sure you have some people who are extreme about it, but pick any group of people and you will find those with extreme ideologies. 

 

Teachers shouldn't be prating to their students about their political views to begin with, let alone with matters as personal as shunning their family for the transgression of...shunning others. The severed have a way of coming full circle. 

[Tentacruel]

Minorities and lgbt Americans do have a reason to be scared of the xenophobic sentiment that has been riled up by Trump's campaign and subsequent victory.  People are scared, and I can't fault them for that.

 

Middle and upper middle class white Americans can funk off.  Literately crying because your "side" lost?  Severing all ties with your family because they disagreed with you on the internet?  I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry, funk your feelings and grow up. 

 

 

note: this is an extreme generalization and I'm obviously not directing this at anyone here

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

LGB America has nothing to fear from Trump

 

Asians have nothing to fear from Trump

 

Legal Latinos and Blacks who want to improve their lives have nothing to fear from Trump

[IQuitDolphin]

LGB America has nothing to fear from Trump

 

Asians have nothing to fear from Trump

 

Legal Latinos and Blacks who want to improve their lives have nothing to fear from Trump

 

I find it ironic that they do, considering Hilary and her party have branded them as racist and placed them under the same category as whites when taking about "white privilege".

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

LGB America has nothing to fear from Trump

 

Asians have nothing to fear from Trump

 

Legal Latinos and Blacks who want to improve their lives have nothing to fear from Trump

Okay I want to say that the fact you felt the need to specify this is concerning.

Also as Tenta said. They do have something to fear. Not directly from Trump necessarily; though.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Okay I want to say that the fact you felt the need to specify this is concerning.

Also as Tenta said. They do have something to fear. Not directly from Trump necessarily; though.

I mean the AAs in Pittsburgh and Detroit are in for a really good 4 years

 

BLM probs isn't

As an Asian, I really don't get why my kind went from being a strong GOP constituency even in my lifetime to a Dem hold...funking GWB 

 

 

2020's election map, it's not terrible for the Dems, Trump would have won 308-230 instead of 306-230, but GOP isn't dying out soon. So not sure going far left is the current play. It's not like Cali and Ma are shooting up

 

The states that HRC improved on Obama's numbers, all stayed the same

[Tentacruel]

We're not even talking about Trump, we're talking about racist douchebags that think they're allowed to be racist douchebags now because of Trump.

[a bad post]

Teachers shouldn't be prating to their students about their political views to begin with, let alone with matters as personal as shunning their family for the transgression of...shunning others. The severed have a way of coming full circle. 

The discussion was already about politics that they class started, he simply joined. Besides, it's not as if we're children, we're students in college.

 

 

We're not even talking about Trump, we're talking about racist douchebags that think they're allowed to be racist douchebags now because of Trump.

Exactly this is the point. It doesn't matter what Trump does, and no matter how much you want to deny it his supporters are becoming more aggressive, and he's not really doing much to stop them.

[Phantom Roxas]

What would it take? Pence affirming Trump's support for same sex marriage? Cause he repudiated basically every stance he formerly held to go full Trumpist on the Hannity interview today. Would that do it for you?

 

I'm honestly not sure what you guys want

 

Maybe instead of Pence dancing around the issue, he could outright say "I deeply regret the views that I once held and the unfortunate impacts that they have had on citizens. They no longer represent the man that I am now, and so I will endeavor to do right by the people who have been well within their right to show hesitation about my policies." Acknowledge that he was wrong, promise to do better and even counter the very same prejudices he has encouraged, and live up to such promises. 

 

Also, I forget what exactly he did, but hasn't Sean Hannity proven himself throughout this election to be somewhere between unstable and outright malicious in his lies? So I'd prefer if the person Mike Pence interviewed with wasn't utterly incompetent.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

We're not even talking about Trump, we're talking about racist douchebags that think they're allowed to be racist douchebags now because of Trump.

I wish I could make separate posts, the second part was to highlight my theory that going further left isn't the smart idea

 

The first part was that job aspects for the heavy AA centers in the Rust Belt are gonna go up. As for racists, how does that relate to Trump's initial question/comment about my post? Trump has condemned the Neo-Nazi wing of the Alt-right. As has Bannon (in honestly more vicious terms since he said that they'd be extinct soon rather than a simple "stop it")

 

What more would you like done

 

The one area I think you might be right is Muslims, and I support people being more skeptical of the Islamic population of America. We need to weed out these sleeper cells before more attacks like OSU happen

[IQuitDolphin]

We're not even talking about Trump, we're talking about racist douchebags that think they're allowed to be racist douchebags now because of Trump.

 

Yes, I f***ing hate racist douchebags who think they're allowed to be racist douchebags. We should hate racist douchebags. Are you saying we didn't hate them before? And are you also assuming that the majority of Donald Trump's supporter base is racist? Last I checked, many of the same people who voted for Obama also voted for Trump. Did they just become racist over a period of 8 years? Of course there will be racist a******s, but they definitely do not make up a majority, and the chance that someone will walk over to you and just beat you up out of nowhere is EXTREMELY unlikely. It's hysteria.

[spoiler='.]And of course maybe you will get attacked by a Trump supporter. People will help you, you will recover, and the person who beat you up will suffer consequences. But I'm sorry, you're part of the relative minority of victims, it's not some widespread epidemic.

 

 

Let's not forget the other side of the spectrum as well, there have been many attacks on Trump supporters by those who voted Hilary, many of which are undocumented and not shown by mainstream media (or any media for that matter). Is this different from a Trump supporter attacking a Hilary supporter? Does the fact that they are attacking a supposedly racist person take away from the gravity of their actions?

 

A small minority of people who voted for Hilary have attacked people who voted for Trump. A small minority of people who voted Trump have attacked people who voted for Hilary. This isn't some widespread epidemic where if I walk outside I'll instantly be shot or beat up by a Hilary/Trump supporter. But apparently it is, so let's keep focusing on that with 100% attention.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-alt-right-white-supremacy-20161129-story.html

 

Alt-right having a civil war atm, with the Neo-Nazis branding people like me as "alt-lite"

[Tentacruel]

You're correct, but it's more than just a few crazies amidst each group.  There is systemic racism in this country, driven by years of prejudice.  Not to sound like a bleeding-heart liberal but there's more for minorities to fear than just racist bastards beating them up.

 

On a side note, no, I don't hate racists.  I hate what they do and what they believe.  I may be an idealist but it goes against my beliefs to hate a person.  (Not that I always successfully adhere to this but I digress.)

[IQuitDolphin]

You're correct, but it's more than just a few crazies amidst each group.  There is systemic racism in this country, driven by years of prejudice.  Not to sound like a bleeding-heart liberal but there's more for minorities to fear than just racist a******s beating them up.

 

There is racism in this country, but we always seem to forget that this nation has made tremendous progress away from racism and prejudice, more than any other country. Maybe those other countries give more free stuff to minorities so they feel like there's less racism and prejudice, but in terms of giving everyone an equal chance to succeed through hard work, no other nation has a more equal playing field than the US. The US can still get better when it comes to racism and prejudice (the KKK still exists, white supremacy groups still exist, etc.), but we don't solve it by being racist to the same people who were supposedly racist to minority groups.

 

And for the sake of credibility, I am not white. But I have never felt one shred of "systematic racism" while I was growing up. Maybe I was lucky, who knows, but considering I am part of a "minority" of "minorities", I should probably buy a lottery ticket. Or maybe I'm not part of the minority at all, since I obviously harbor different views than everyone else in my family and community.

[Delibirb]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-alt-right-white-supremacy-20161129-story.html

 

Alt-right having a civil war atm, with the Neo-Nazis branding people like me as "alt-lite"

Is this not essentially what people were trying to explain to you 3-5 pages ago? Alt-right is not your label, just because there's more of you. It belongs to the NNs, which is not only bad because it gives you a bad name right out the gate, but then this happens.

 

A lot of topics have come and gone in this thread and I'm honestly not certain what the current one is, so instead, I'll offer my observations on the climate of this thread, which perhaps may be relevant to some of the topics previously discussed.

 

Winter, you, and perhaps your group, are being hyper-defensive regarding the aggressiveness facing America right now, some of which is a direct result of your successes as of late. You need to stop justifying yourself and the actions of people you supported Trump, and stop outright denying the claims and concerns of others, if only because it makes you look like a bigot that no one wants to be around. I don't believe that's what you are, I think you're caught up in the admittedly exciting political climate that has surfaced in the wake of the election, which isn't bad. But you are turning other people off to your own opinions by being so aggressive in your desperation to claim that everything is perfect. Nothing is perfect right now. Nothing is horrible, true, but there is cause for concern in some areas, and that needs to be acknowledged. Your number one problem, that I can see, is your condescending tone, which is only strengthened by the brevity of your statements. You offer no defenses or explanation for your facts, nor for your opinions and why you believe them to be true.

 

Everyone else, while I understand the frustration Winter is creating here, creating the appearance not only of ignorance, but an outright refusal to repair ignorance, but it is important to remain calm and to lay down your points precisely, in a manner that they can be understood, as well as to rebut his points as fully as possible, in the same manner. Brevity is the enemy of enlightenment. Be concise, by all means, but explain yourself.