US Trump Administration Discussion Thread

[Aerion Brightflame]

And they have every right to do so, for whatever reason they wish to. I didn't actually talk about motivation, because motivation is the secondary issue here I feel.

 

It's a matter of personal liberity; you can disagree with whatever motivation they have behind it, but so long as they are bringing no harm to others or the property of others one should have freedom of expression in this fashion. Likewise people have the right to call out those who do this sort of thing as 'bastards' or 'unpatriotic' or whatever they want. It's not an excuse to be arsehole, but it's doesn't making being an arsehole illegal either.

 

If the issue is an anti-american sentiment in there hearts or whatever, making burning the flag illegal does not address that underlying motivation. You tackle that issue seperately, same as you'd tackle the issue of someone being a homophobe seperately.

[Tentacruel]

super legal, and should be, despite being shitty to do. 

 

That's what I'm saying.  It should not be illegal, but it's a really ignorant thing to do in both cases.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

About the same % of Americans support a constitutional amendment to criminalize this unpatriotic behavior as support Same Sex Marriage

 

 

It's a piece of fabric.

 

The only thing you damage by burning a flag is your wallet, because you generally burn your own flags. Burning somebody elses flag is a different matter; it's vandalism. Unless you are an idiot, let it get out of control and let your house burn down in the process.

 

Any symbollic merit a flag has, i.e 'all the veterans who bled beneath that flag' is generally outweighed in my mind by the fact that they also died to preserve ones liberty and freedom, and thus instrinsiclly the right for one to burn ones own flag. It is a form of free speech, albiet a more self descrutive and arguably petty one, thus one should have the ability to do it, just as others have the freedom to tell others to f*** off for disrepecting the nation.

 

Admittedly American views of flags are siginificantly different to my own because almost nobody flies a british flag (Or english, welsh, scottish ect ect one) unless the rugby or the football is on. And even then it's in the minority.

Have you heard our national anthem lol

 

The American flag represents the values that made America great. It sends a very clear message when you burn it

 

If you hate America as whole, get out. Simple as that

[Sunshine Jesse]

For every day that passes, Winter veers further into the territory of being a living, sentient strawman.

[Aerion Brightflame]

And fortunately that doesn't mean you have to pass law making it so; The US has representitive democracy, not pure democracy.

 

Outlawing this would be a violation of certain rights of freedom of expression as protected by the 9th and 14th Amendments. Legalising gay marriage, so long as one does not for one to perform a ceremony against ones will would not violate this.

 

There is a strictly legal argument to be made against the outlawing of burning flags, even if it is willed by a given proportion of the population. Of course there is also debate as to whether freedom of expression is a civil right protected in these such ways, but many would argue it is.

 

This may sound contradictory to views I've expressed before so I'll clarify to show why I don't feel it is; I believe the duty of a democratic government is to govern and to represent the will of the people. But that does not mean blindly following it, we elect representitives because they can devote enough to time to the issues to be well judged enough to make informed decisions that work in the interests of the nation as a whole. Pure democracy, which boils down to mob rule, does not have the same 'certaintity'.

 

EDIT:

 

Yes, I have heard your anthem.

 

You quite clearly state the words 'The Land of the Free'.

 

Freedom includes the freedom to do things that you may disagree with, so long as it brings no harm upon anyone other than oneself. Freedom and personal liberty are almost core values in America, and trying to outlaw burning the flag flies in the face of that.

 

If it is someones personal flag, something they themselves own, why are they not allowed to burn it as they would be able to burn any other possession?

 

The Freedom that your nation has earned stretches to those whom you disagree with. I feel it's actually the real thing that fighting for the sake of democracy is about, fighting to preserve the right to have dissenting opinions and dissenting actions within a nation, as opposed to a form of facism.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Unless you classified Flag Burning as treason. At that point the 1st, 9th, and 14th won't cover it

[Aerion Brightflame]

Unless you classified Flag Burning as treason. At that point the 1st, 9th, and 14th won't cover it

 

But then you define treason as actions that go against 'American Values' as opposed to actions that directly act against the state.

 

Which means in part sacrificing the idea of freedom and liberty which the US is founded upon and prides itself for. It beings to border on totalitarianism instead, because the state is telling you to hold X values or be jailed for expressing a distate for them

 

How can you be a free nation in that case? Freedom will always include the right for people to do things that you disagree with.

 

Flip the situation on it's head; Imagine if it was made treason to express a viewpoint against immigration? It's a more extreme example because I can't think of an obvious one, but you get the point. The state would be using threat of legal repercussion of the highest order to dictate a certain type of thought as being wrong and others as being right.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Hiding behind a veil of patriotism doesn't make you being an SJW any better, Winter.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I just feel that unlike say criticizing a politician, burning the Flag, casts a blackmark against America as a whole. It could be stretched to be treason if you call it a call to arms against the government

 

 

Not a SJW Jesse, I don't like it, but am willing to tolerate it. Except for the fact that the same people who burn flags also tend to be rioting thugs who cause property damage 

 

Edit:

 

If I was a SJW I would be trying to silence people who talk about personally upsetting viewpoints, like pro-choicers or something like the Westboro Baptist Church. 

 

I'm not. I really do believe that Flag burning is a prelude to anarchy. But there's not much either I or Mr. Trump can do about it

[Aerion Brightflame]

But there is nothing to say that those living in America have to be beholden too and respect American values. They are allowed to piss on them as much as they want, because they have and should have the freedom to do so.

 

They are causing no kind of physical harm by doing so unless they are morons, and the underlying social issues that may cause it won't go away by banning the ability to burn the flag. They'll still riot or vandalise say, but they'll simply have a piece of liberty stripped from them by doing so.

 

You'll always get people who oppose the current 'normal values', and you have to allow them to express them in a 'safe' manner or else you generate hatred and friction because you are trying to telling them what they believe is wrong without having objective reasoning for doing so, simply using 'unpatriotic' as a dirty word.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Doing something in protest/to make a statement is not necessarily the same as doing it "to piss people off". And burning a gay pride flag is super legal, and should be, despite being shitty to do. 

See my problem is, burning a gay flag says you don't like gay people. It's rude and terrible. But I don't think it's equivalent to burning an American flag which would show your dislike for America as a whole. 

 

Honest question again, why are [you] here if you hate America?

But there is nothing to say that those living in America have to be beholden too and respect American values. They are allowed to piss on them as much as they want, because they have and should have the freedom to do so.

 

They are causing no kind of physical harm by doing so unless they are morons, and the underlying social issues that may cause it won't go away by banning the ability to burn the flag. They'll still riot or vandalise say, but they'll simply have a piece of liberty stripped from them by doing so.

 

You'll always get people who oppose the current 'normal values', and you have to allow them to express them in a 'safe' manner or else you generate hatred and friction because you are trying to telling them what they believe is wrong without having objective reasoning for doing so, simply using 'unpatriotic' as a dirty word.

Same Question I asked Giga then

 

My problem is I see burning a flag as a flawed method to express displeasure with the government, it seems more an assault on America as country rather than something about the gov that's dissatisfying 

[VCR_CAT]

See my problem is, burning a gay flag says you don't like gay people. It's rude and terrible. But I don't think it's equivalent to burning an American flag which would show your dislike for America as a whole. 

 

Honest question again, why are [you] here if you hate America?

Same Question I asked Giga then

 

Fun fact: not everyone lives in a given nation because of some "feeling" of "patriotism". Sometimes they live in a place because of job opportunities, a government that isn't a blatant dictatorship, freedoms and rights, etc. etc. etc. Living in a country does not mean one has to agree with the establishment, and asking them to leave is just hilarious coming from you.

 

I mean frick, the irony that you sound exactly like someone making a fuss over hate speech and to what degree it should be outlawed is too good to pass up. I believe it was you that was strongly advocating for first amendment rights even when it wasn't something you liked or agreed with, no? Maybe instead of picking and choosing based purely on what agrees with you you should probably go all-in with that.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Hawaii certifies its results: Clinton 266,891 (62.2%), Trump 128,847 (30.0%), Others 33,199 (7.7%). Clinton 10.5% off Obama's '12 margin

New Mexico certifies its results: Clinton 385,234 (48.3%), Trump 319,666 (40.0%), Others 93,418 (11.7%)

Alabama certifies its results: Trump 1,318,255 (62.1%), Clinton 729,547 (34.4%), Others 75,570 (3.6%). Trump wins most votes in AL history

Maryland just became the 12th state where Clinton's margin exceeds Obama's '12 margin.

Fun fact: not everyone lives in a given nation because of some "feeling" of "patriotism". Sometimes they live in a place because of job opportunities, a government that isn't a blatant dictatorship, freedoms and rights, etc. etc. etc. Living in a country does not mean one has to agree with the establishment, and asking them to leave is just hilarious coming from you.

 

I mean frick, the irony that you sound exactly like someone making a fuss over hate speech and to what degree it should be outlawed is too good to pass up. I believe it was you that was strongly advocating for first amendment rights even when it wasn't something you liked or agreed with, no? Maybe instead of picking and choosing based purely on what agrees with you you should probably go all-in with that.

Again, my problem is that I don't think Flag Burning is the correct way to say the government is flawed. I voted the way I did this election because the government is flawed. I don't think America is flawed, which is what the burning of the flags says. It's a direct assault on the constitution, bill of rights, and the Declaration of independence, not the government 

 

See that's also not true. I'm less personally offended by anarchists than I am about abortionists or homophobes...yet I'm fine with letting the latter two speak, but not the former...ever wonder why?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Fun fact: not everyone lives in a given nation because of some "feeling" of "patriotism". 

 

Take VCR and I for example, we live in freaking Canada. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Take VCR and I for example, we live in freaking Canada. 

Dump Trudeau, and get over here. There's enough snow and moose up north that you'll feel at home in the midwest 

 

Trump's cabinate so far

 

Outcasted Goldman guy, doctor-congressman, neurosurgeon, Gov raised Sikh, ed reform philanthropist, steel guy, 2 Army gen, failed presidential candidate...not really alt-right material 

[Aerion Brightflame]

But banning the act of burning the flag doesn't change the willingness someone may have to harm government institutions or 'America' as a whole. All you do is outlaw a specific action; If that is truly the motivation they will find something else to do to express that viewpoint.

 

As for the question; people don't have to love they nation they are in. They could love there town, but hate the nation. Love the job they do but hate the nation. Love the family and friends they hold dear, but hate the nation. They could adore the freedom and rights the consitution gives, but hate the state the nation is in. They might have no choice due to economics but the live in the US.

 

Living in the US does not mean one loves the US, or it's heritage, or it's values. And neither does burning the flag mean you hate 'America'. Because 'America' is not a singular concept to everyone. It is complex.

 

Burning the flag does not mean you hate America automatically. If I had an American flag right now, I would burn it to prove this point. I don't hate the US, even if I disagree with many of your political choices, it would have no impact in my choice to burn the flag. I would burn it because I can, and because fire is really really pretty. I imagine some have burnt flags to protest the things the nation has chosen to done, not the values it holds. Just as patriotism for the flag and the nation is not an ideal all will hold, because it's emotional.

 

You already know I'm British, and we hold nowhere near the same reverance for any of our flags that you do. I generally have the opinion that if you truly have pride in your nation, that there are more ways to show and express it than paying homage to cloth on a stick. So I can't entirely relate to this feeling. But I do know that you can't force patriotism, and you thus can't really pass laws that serve to enforce it because it's purely emotional.

 

Also there was no way in hell Hillary would hit Obama's numbers in Hawaii, given that was his birthplace and all.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Burning an American flag doesn't even mean you must hate America. This is just the stupidest argument. "Those who disagree with me hate America blah blah blah"

 

At this point I almost want to burn a flag because I funking can.

[VCR_CAT]

Again, my problem is that I don't think Flag Burning is the correct way to say the government is flawed. I voted the way I did this election because the government is flawed. I don't think America is flawed, which is what the burning of the flags says. It's a direct assault on the constitution, bill of rights, and the Declaration of independence, not the government 

 

See that's also not true. I'm less personally offended by anarchists than I am about abortionists or homophobes...yet I'm fine with letting the latter two speak, but not the former...ever wonder why?

 

So then you're reading way too much into things and making a fuss about it. The irony grows thicker the more you talk about it. Either way, you're advocating for making a form of expression illegal, and it was still you that said "Freedom of speech includes the bad stuff too". Besides, it reflects better for anyone who's actually able to take criticism, regardless of how grounded it actually is or not.

 

Regardless of how much you're offended by them, or how much you're "willing" to let them speak, you let them speak. Believing otherwise means you don't believe in your constitution, bill of rights, or declaration of independence.

 

Gee, doesn't that sound familiar.

 

 

In other words, it doesn't matter how you feel about the matter. Being free to burn a dang flag falls perfectly within your constitution, and there's no point in making a fuss over it considering you're just complaining about something just because it doesn't fall into your precious worldview. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So then you're reading way too much into things and making a fuss about it. The irony grows thicker the more you talk about it. Either way, you're advocating for making a form of expression illegal, and it was still you that said "Freedom of speech includes the bad stuff too". Besides, it reflects better for anyone who's actually able to take criticism, regardless of how grounded it actually is or not.

 

Regardless of how much you're offended by them, or how much you're "willing" to let them speak, you let them speak. Believing otherwise means you don't believe in your constitution, bill of rights, or declaration of independence.

 

Gee, doesn't that sound familiar.

 

 

In other words, it doesn't matter how you feel about the matter. Being free to burn a dang flag falls perfectly within your constitution, and there's no point in making a fuss over it considering you're just complaining about something just because it doesn't fall into your precious worldview. Gee, doesn't that sound familiar.

You should read some of the dissents in the 5-4 SCOTUS case on why Flag Burning isn't a good idea

 

This is what the chief justice had to say

 

"The American flag, then, throughout more than 200 years of our history, has come to be the visible symbol embodying our Nation. It does not represent the views of any particular political party, and it does not represent any particular political philosophy. The flag is not simply another "idea" or "point of view" competing for recognition in the marketplace of ideas. Millions and millions of Americans regard it with an almost mystical reverence regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have. I cannot agree that the First Amendment invalidates the Act of Congress, and the laws of 48 of the 50 States, which make criminal the public burning of the flag."

Also there was no way in hell Hillary would hit Obama's numbers in Hawaii, given that was his birthplace and all.

Yeah, but 10 pts is a lot. Then again Trump improved Romney's number in NY by 7 pts, so maybe a home field effect is real 

 

The embarrassing defeat for HRC was Pennsylvania where she lost the Rodham's home county 

 

The Amendment got really close to passing in congress too, passed the house and lost by 1 vote in the senate. Since then the opinion against Flag Burning has only gotten stronger. There's a very good chance it gets through 

 

Clinton underperformed Obama in NM, CO & NV but overperformed in CA, AZ, & TX. 

 

The answer why isn't Hispanics, but white republicans. Trump did significantly better with Hispanics in NM, CO, and AZ, but a fair bit worse with White College Women

[VCR_CAT]

Burning an American flag doesn't even mean you must hate America. This is just the stupidest argument. "Those who disagree with me hate America blah blah blah"

 

At this point I almost want to burn a flag because I f***ing can.

 

This.

 

There's so many reasons someone can burn a flag, but even if it is to take the piss on """America""" (seriously though, "almost mystical reverence regardless of what sort of social, political, or philosophical beliefs they may have"? Please.) you're still the one to say that freedom of speech includes freedom to be an jabroni. It's completely constitutional for me to take a Canadian flag and burn it, and even if someone doesn't agree with it, whatever screw 'em. Unless there's a burn ban on (in which case then I gotta pay a fine for my stupid timing), I should be perfectly fine within constitutional rights.

 

Regardless of what it means to you or the government or anyone, nothing that's going on is illegal and the people that think it should be are just letting their feelings get a little too hurt. I believe you always say to "grow some thick skin"? Nobody's being harmed, nothing bad is going on, someone's just doing something that's making a statement that you don't like.

 

Get over it.

[Aerion Brightflame]

It may indeed do so, and it is well within the Supreme Court duty to make the call the way they did (Because they are more versed in the area of how constitutional it may or may not be than any of us), I was simply happy to point out that there is a legal argument against criminalising it.

 

I just don't think it should get through, because just as the flag is a symbol of American values through-out history, it is also a symbol of those who fought and died in the name of freedom in all it's forms. And that those freedoms should be protected because the ability to voice dissenting opinions and protest in a manner that brings no harm upon others is very important. Again that is in part because I don't share this mystical reverance for any flag. If you asked me to take pride in my nations, I would take pride in it's achievements themselves not a symbol of them.

 

Just so long as it's not made treason. Rendering something treason on the ground that its 'unpatriotic' is a scary road to embark upon.#

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Speaking of Treason. Chief of Staff has said while President Elect doesn't want to prosecute HRC (in his personal view). He'll not interfere with AG or FBI in their attempt to do so...so that can of worms is still there.

 

Would complicate Trump picking Mayor Guiliani as his SoS if his AG is prosecuting HRC for her foundation though 

 

Romney is the best pick as much as I hate to say it. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Winter.

It doesn't matter what the flag represents to you.

When some of these people have said "It's their right to do it and is just an expression of their freedom of speech" you've said "But it represents this and that's why it's a bad thing to do." That's not what people are saying. What it represents doesn't matter because it just represents it

It's not the country. Nor the values. It's a representation. And if someone wants to protest it's quite a viable method. It gets the point across and no one gets hurt. (Except some people's feelings). I'd rather a flag burned than a government building, for instance.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So do you support Hampshire college no longer flying the Flag too?

Anyway

 

12m

Carrier‏ @Carrier

We are pleased to have reached a deal with President-elect Trump & VP-elect Pence to keep close to 1,000 jobs in Indy. More details soon.

 

That 35% tariff blackmail, First Ford, then Apple, now carrier

 

I just think you guys should reflect on the fact I'm happy to let people who think I should have the gay shocked out of me before calling me a SJW

[Yui]

So do you support Hampshire college no longer flying the Flag too?

Anyway

 

12m

Carrier‏ @Carrier

We are pleased to have reached a deal with President-elect Trump & VP-elect Pence to keep close to 1,000 jobs in Indy. More details soon.

 

That 35% tariff blackmail, First Ford, then Apple, now carrier

 

I just think you guys should reflect on the fact I'm happy to let people who think I should have the gay shocked out of me before calling me a SJW

These are mine, just gonna leave 'em here right quick because this flag thing is stupid, even for you.

 

As pretty much every person in this thread besides yourself has already established, burning a flag hurts nobody besides the one doing the burning unless you manage to botch that up (but come on, how do you botch that up?). It's also a perfectly valid method of protest. In fact, your insistence that the flag represents all that America is makes it even more viable. On top of the flag itself being a symbol of a nation where we're free to burn our flags if we so desire, burning a representation of our nation with your interpretation of what it stands for is a perfect way to express that one believes America is burning in a better way than words could ever hope to. And even if they make that illegal, not like people will just stop doing it because of that. Weed is illegal, but people do it. Illegal gun ownership - as the name subtly implies - is illegal, and we specialize in that sheet. Murder is illegal, but hell we do it anyway. Alcohol was illegal as hell during the Prohibition, but, surprise, people did it anyway. But don't worry; making this specific form of protest illegal will make sure nobody ever does it again.

 

You got me there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for Hampshire, it's their business if they don't want to fly a flag. Just like if you don't want to let people to burn flags, that's your business. If I don't give half a sheet (I don't; I just got tired of watching this shitshow without saying anything), that's my business. Thus is the beauty of our constitution letting us be free as funk. The rights that let people burn flags and your own rights to tell anyone who doesn't agree with your Trump's comedically narrow view to leave the nation are both parts of what we built the nation on, so I know this is uncomfortable for you, but you'll just have to grow a pair and live with it.

 

On a closing note, let's talk about people calling you an SJW. You're certainly acting like one about this whole flag ordeal. You think you're right because you Trump said so, and show no sign of giving the other side any ground. Sadly, I must inform you that the tangerine we've elected this year is only human tangerine, and therefore is perfectly capable of being wrong. I'm not saying he is in this case (nor am I saying he's right; don't think I'm agreeing with you at all), but even you should be smart enough to know there's a possibility that not all arguments will be ones where you're on the right side.