Transgender [Serious]

[Phantom Roxas]

I think calling Winter a bully is the appropriate word, and while I'm aware of my own hypocrisy, I don't care. Winter has consistently been condescending, and I'm sure there are better ways to point that out, but I have no qualms about pointing it out at all.

[Dad]

Let me see if I can break this down.  Everybody hush for a sec.

 

 

 

Not quite, I've made it clear I have no real inclination to fight to get them bathroom rights. I also don't care enough about it to work against getting them those rights. 

 

I don't really have a problem with a trans individual pissing next to any child of mine, because no child of mine is going into a bathroom without an adult when they're kids.

 

Trans people not getting the basic wage they need to survive because they're trans is upsetting to me however

 

EDIT:  Apparently my post up and deleted itself.  Idk what happened.

 

Basically, Winter doesn't care about uni-sex bathrooms, but he hates the discrimination.  I feel the same way, but I think Transgender individuals should use the bathroom of the sex they chose.

 

They're not aliens.  They're people.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Not to say discrimination isn't present in hiring, because it super is, but I feel this isn't why. After all, consider the employment of smokers (who receive like a billion breaks an hour). That very much damages output, and thus profits, but (correct me if I'm wrong because I didn't check) smokers don't have a reasonably lower hire rate.

 

The reason hiring discriminates against transgender individuals is not because of the accommodations they require, it is because of prejudice, plain and simple.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VV78Y18vJlsJ:https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/behavioral-competencies/global-and-cultural-effectiveness/pages/unemployed-smokers-rehire-rate-lower-than-nonsmokers-study-shows.aspx+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Did Bruce change genitalia in becoming Caitlyn?

 

I think calling Winter a bully is the appropriate word, and while I'm aware of my own hypocrisy, I don't care. Winter has consistently been condescending, and I'm sure there are better ways to point that out, but I have no qualms about pointing it out at all.

 

Then you're the same thing you're calling Winter and we can all set it aside and get along?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

@Roxas

 

I don't have to respect or accept your views, I have to respect your right to have them. Which I do. 

 

Flagburning was the only exception I was iffy on, and y'all showed me the light on that one

[Phantom Roxas]

Not his disagreement, his pronouncement that view is worthless. The first is good and fine. The latter is bigotry

 

The point was that you've done nothing to make your points worthy of consideration. That isn't bigotry, that's pointing out how your arguments don't help conversations.

 

Basically, Winter doesn't care about uni-sex bathrooms, but he hates the discrimination.  I feel the same way, but I think Transgender individuals should use the bathroom of the sex they chose.

 

They're not aliens.  They're people.

Except he hasn't criticized the discrimination. He's criticized the people who hate the discrimination.

 

Then you're the same thing you're calling Winter and we can all set it aside and get along?

If you mean that I'm bullying Winter, sure, I'll admit to that.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Like how much I paid in income taxes last year? ~9K 

 

Thought that value does include DTTs

 

How much of it went to Trans rights? Probs 0. How much of it went to potholes...clearly 0

 

So why would I want to add another mouth to feed?

My point is that I want to know how much it would actually cost you if this bathroom stuff happened. I doubt it would be that large of an increase. I get wanting all your money to go to what you feel is needed and not wanting to lose even a dime but...it's not really that much.

Also 9K?

I make an average of 10 dollars an hour, about 42 hours a week. And I pay out $85 a week for income tax. So in a month that would be 340. Meaning in a year it'd be less than 5K.

What the heck kind of taxes do you have?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I've criticized leave people out to dry on the street. I'd much rather have trans people take home a paycheck they can eat and live with rather than them getting to pee in one bathroom or the other

 

Whether that is me being against discrimination or against poverty is up to y'all to decide

My point is that I want to know how much it would actually cost you if this bathroom stuff happened. I doubt it would be that large of an increase. I get wanting all your money to go to what you feel is needed and not wanting to lose even a dime but...it's not really that much.

Also 9K?

I make an average of 10 dollars an hour, about 42 hours a week. And I pay out $85 a week for income tax. So in a month that would be 340. Meaning in a year it'd be less than 5K.

What the heck kind of taxes do you have?

Stock trading has a higher tax rate than standard incomes, esp if you trade in short time frames

 

Get payed about $25 a hour, and work 40 hours...

 

Are you calculating Social Security?

[Aix]

I haven't read much of this thread carefully so I can't tell if Winter's backtracking or not, but it comes down to Winter believing this bathroom issue is not a priority on the huge list of things government budget and manpower needs to go to while the rest of you seem to disagree or simply dislike how he's saying things since he's pointlessly offensive with his words.

 

Winter's belligerence isn't something you should be jumping on really, it goes nowhere.

 

As for the argument itself, it also goes nowhere unless either side can provide something to back their point. If you can't, just agree to disagree and stop being asses.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

If you mean that I'm bullying Winter, sure, I'll admit to that.

 

No, I meant "Then you're the same thing you're calling Winter and we can all set it aside and get along?"

 

You're cutting your nose off to spite your face at this point. 

 

Sucks for him, F->M is like 5x more expensive, and the sex organs don't work as well. It's easier to replicate a jabroni than it is a dick

 

Eh, pretty sure money isn't an issue there. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I've criticized leave people out to dry on the street. I'd much rather have trans people take home a paycheck they can eat and live with rather than them getting to pee in one bathroom or the other

Okay hold on did we literally just go full circle? Are you back to saying that the two things are linked and we can't have both or...?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

No, I meant "Then you're the same thing you're calling Winter and we can all set it aside and get along?"

 

You're cutting your nose off to spite your face at this point. 

 

 

 

Eh, pretty sure money isn't an issue there. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read it's actually hard to get an erection in F->M

 

Which kinda takes 90% of the fun out of it wouldn't it?

[Phantom Roxas]

I've criticized leave people out to dry on the street. I'd much rather have trans people take home a paycheck they can eat and live with rather than them getting to pee in one bathroom or the other

 

Whether that is me being against discrimination or against poverty is up to y'all to decide

 

Does it have to be an either/or scenario? I mean, you didn't say that it has to be, but "rather" does make it seem like this is something to choose between. It's possible to support both the paychecks and the right to choose which bathroom to go to. I totally agree with you about wanting trans people to take home a paycheck, so I really have nothing to say about that part, but I don't want to say I'd "rather" have it over the bathroom issue. I'd like to have them both.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Okay hold on did we literally just go full circle? Are you back to saying that the two things are linked and we can't have both or...?

When did I ever move away from that position??

 

@cowcow 

 

Honestly no idea, they've been building this road for 6 months now, and there's strikes a fair bit. I don't really trust the Nashville government to do anything right. 

 

University finally started building unisex bathrooms, and my tuition bill strangely went up. I'm lucky since scholarship pays for my tuition, but it still went up

[Aerion Brightflame]

That does imply that the tax money can only be used for one or the other thing. Which is a little unfair because it relies on the assumption that the state is the only thing that dictates if people can or can't have jobs.

 

The reality is that there should probably betax money enough to do both things, and that it's unfair to deprive money from one with just the other as justification.

 

If that was really your cocern, shouldn't the argument be 'Hey let's get more tax money in so we can pay for all this s***'.

 

Hell there's bound to be some other superflous simple mismanagement case in the use of tax money that could be used to pay for this s***.

 

EDIT: Y'all should probably back off Winter a little. There's a point where it stops being constructive critism and just turns into being an arse for the sake of it.

[VCR_CAT]

I haven't read much of this thread carefully so I can't tell if Winter's backtracking or not, but it comes down to Winter believing this bathroom issue is not a priority on the huge list of things government budget and manpower needs to go to while the rest of you seem to disagree or simply dislike how he's saying things since he's pointlessly offensive with his words.

 

Winter's belligerence isn't something you should be jumping on really, it goes nowhere.

 

As for the argument itself, it also goes nowhere unless either side can provide something to back their point. If you can't, just agree to disagree and stop being asses.

 

You could probably stand to read more. The complaint is that he made absolutely no actual argument on the issue at all and simply posted his opinions as an argument and went about in a manner that was less "I don't agree with this" and more "I don't want to talk about this so I'm going to make a fuss over it". This has nothing to do with how offensive he is/is not (at least on my part); the point is that he did nothing to actually contribute to the conversation and posted about how we're wrong because he says so than actually saying anything worth taking seriously as an argument. All he was doing was shitposting and we called him out on that sheet.

[Slinky]

Let's be real here. Transgenders getting bathroom rights is a slippery slope. Transgenderism isn't a provable concept at this point. We're going to get guys who pretend to be transgender just to gain access to the girls bathrooms, and people aren't going to be able to prove them wrong, because the entire concept is based around feelings at this time.

 

If that kind of scenario occurs (and we all know people will abuse it. Naturally.)  then its likely going to result in higher perversion (peeks and such), and potential higher rape counts (which is definitely not okay). And eventually, women will just not feel safe going into the women's bathroom, and will likely refuse to use it.

 

In this long run, its likely that giving the rights at this point would be sacrificing a majority's safety just to make a minority feel better about themselves. That's definitely not a good investment until we can figure out who is actually transgender, and who is faking it, and even then it might not be a smart idea.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

You could probably stand to read more. The complaint is that he made absolutely no actual argument on the issue at all and simply posted his opinions as an argument and went about in a manner that was less "I don't agree with this" and more "I don't want to talk about this so I'm going to make a fuss over it". This has nothing to do with how offensive he is/is not (at least on my part); the point is that he did nothing to actually contribute to the conversation and posted about how we're wrong because he says so than actually saying anything worth taking seriously as an argument. All he was doing was shitposting and we called him out on that sheet.

 

...

Why are you "complaining" when you're doing the exact same thing? 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Let's be real here. Transgenders getting bathroom rights is a slippery slope. Transgenderism isn't a provable concept at this point. We're going to get guys who pretend to be transgender just to gain access to the girls bathrooms, and people aren't going to be able to prove them wrong, because the entire concept is based around feelings at this time.

 

If that kind of scenario occurs (and we all know people will abuse it. Naturally.)  then its likely going to result in higher perversion (peeks and such), and potential higher rape counts (which is definitely not okay). And eventually, women will just not feel safe going into the women's bathroom, and will likely refuse to use it.

 

In this long run, its likely that giving the rights at this point would be sacrificing a majority's safety just to make a minority feel better about themselves. That's definitely not a good investment until we can figure out who is actually transgender, and who is faking it, and even then it might not be a smart idea.

I could be wrong, but there haven't been too many cases of people using trangenderism to commit sexual assault as of now

 

I can only think of one off the top of my mind

 

The bigger problem for me is that it's a losing investment, and we're low on funds

[Slinky]

I could be wrong, but there haven't been too many cases of people using trangenderism to commit sexual assault as of now

 

I can only think of one off the top of my mind

 

The bigger problem for me is that it's a losing investment, and we're low on funds

 

Well, true.

But my point is, if you give transgenders the pass, then it opens the gate for fakers to gain access to the place where women are literally pulling down their pants. It'd be a natural gateway for rapists to abuse.

[Dad]

When did I ever move away from that position??

 

@cowcow 

 

Honestly no idea, they've been building this road for 6 months now, and there's strikes a fair bit. I don't really trust the Nashville government to do anything right. 

 

University finally started building unisex bathrooms, and my tuition bill strangely went up. I'm lucky since scholarship pays for my tuition, but it still went up

 

You live in Nashville?  No wonder you're always so bitter.

 

 

 

EDIT: Y'all should probably back off Winter a little. There's a point where it stops being constructive critism and just turns into being an arse for the sake of it.

 

I was getting at this.  It's starting to become something of a meme to punish Winter for poorly arguing his point.  Not only is there little counter argument, its just kind of petty.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well, true.

But my point is, if you give transgenders the pass, then it opens the gate for fakers to gain access to the place where women are literally pulling down their pants. It'd be a natural gateway for rapists to abuse.

Pornhub is free, and it's not hard to get a hookup

 

I really don't think that's the good argument against it 

 

But I suppose pathetic hopeless perverts do exist 

[Phantom Roxas]

I'm sorry to everyone for getting off track with my posts. It wasn't advancing the conversation at all.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It goes back to my point, if you look at someone like Hina or Kate who really puts a lot of work into being convincing, you can't tell. A pervert troll would be obvious to spot

 

Common sense goes a long way

[Aerion Brightflame]

I think it's fine everyone once in a while to call people out for low effort posting and the like, because in theory it will help improve the section.

 

It just never actually achieves anything in practice, so doing it beyond a single specific instance you actually wanted to discuss is pointless. Because no offence to him, he's conducted arguments in this manner for about 4 years now, he's not changing. I am usually the first person to be willing to call Winter on this sheet, but most of the time it's not worth it. The flag burning thread is the only thread in a while I've felt it was worth doing in.

 

Getting worked up about it just derails s*** for everyone else.